And I am sure God would have forgiven us. It is our duty. But those of us who were in the camps have the rights and the duty to comply with the orders on the part of the Allied forces and to be objective about it.
A Human being is a human being, and whoever says he is more than a human being is a dog. All I can tell you is that objectivity, after such long troubles and pain, is absolutely difficult--very very difficult.
Q Witness, I hope you didn't think that I didn't want to believe you, but, after all, that is the whole idea which prevails here, namely to put certain arguments before you. Those are the rights we have in this Tribunal.
A Yes, absolutely, you can avail yourself of this. I am speaking about the collective guilt of the German people as compared to the collective guilt of the German soldier.
DR. HOFFMANN: No further questions.
BY DR. BELZER: (Counsel for defendant Sommer):
Q Witness, I would like to start from that answer of yours which you gave to one of the questions put to you by Judge Phillips; the figure of the dead in the concentration camp of Neuengamma was given by you for the period of time of five years as 38,000 men. Is that correct?
A Yes, that figure is correct.
Q May I ask you now, witness, to tell the Tribunal where you gained that knowledge?
A I gained that knowledge from my own activity within the Scope of work of investigating the concentration camp of Neuengamma in the last two years. I also know it from one of my comrades who is working in my enterprise now, and he used to be in the concentration camp with me, who found out that these figures as a camp clerk and as a roll call clerk.
The figure of 38,000 dead is the correct figure.
Q You furthermore stated the strength of the concentration camp of Neuengamme by saying that it was 10,000 per year, is that correct?
A That figure of 10,000 is nothing but an average figure, and it is an approximate figure in addition. During the establishment in 1940, when we arrived there were approximately 2,200 men. When it was dissolved in 1945 there were 16,000 or 17,000 men in the camp. Now, if you take an average figure there you could possibly say about 10,000 men per year. But, when I figured that number of dead I was also approximating. Then, if you have a difference between the two you have to consider the few releases.
Q This figure, 10,000 men, as the strength of the concentration camp Neuenganne only refers to the actual camp, or the camp proper?
A The camp of Neuengamme used the last inmate number, it was 84,000 and, as I stated before 38,000 out of these 84,000 had died. Of course, we should include here the outside details which were quite numerous, and which had been distributed all over large areas in a varied manner. The conditions of the outside details were varied. There were a few details which were, relatively speaking, better; and there were a few of them which were absolutely bad.
In this figure of 38,000 I am also including those who had been exterminated in mass executions due to Special Actions. They did have a certain inmate number in the camp. For instance, we had mass exterminations which were called some sort of a "purifying" execution when a number of people were killed in order to eliminate the bad elements in the group.
In the Summer of 1941, a transport of selected inmates left, some of whom had been outstanding and particularly those last few Jews whom we had, and there were also professors and doctors who had contributed quite a bit to humanity.
Then you had your SAW, people who had been released from the Wehrmacht, who had been dismissed because they could no longer be used for the service. These people were hardly permitted to have any clothes, and they were sent near Halle, a small place. There was a lunatic asylum there, and they were injected with some poison, and they died. Approximately fourteen days later, or two weeks later their clothes came back to the camp, and, eight days later the inmates who were in the political department of the camp and were employed there, were told to close the files of those inmates, and to mark them with the black cross. Thus fiftythousand people were marked with the black cross. That was the first purifying process which I mentioned, but, I don't know if you want me to talk any more about the number of the dead.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you many more questions?
DR. BELZER: Just one more question, Your Honor.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q From the document which has been submitted, it can be seen that the concentration camp of Neuengamme was stronger in 1945 by having 55,000 men in there, including the outside details?
A 50,000 men. It may be correct that shortly before the capitulation a certain number of inmates had been already evacuated to Bergen-Belsen, and also other outside details, and these people were a part again of Neuengamme. The figure of 55,000 was the normal strength of the entire camp; the normal capacity in fact of Neuengamme; for instance, in 1945, when Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen were being dissolved, and everything and everybody was being sent to Neuengamme, the conditions were such that the inmates at Neuengamme were sleeping with five men in one cot, and those beds were pretty narrow. This figure of 55,000 can not be used as a comparative figure.
Q Including the outside camps?
A Yes, including the outside camps. This figure itself is increased by the collapse, and can only come from the last few days of the war.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other examination?
BY DR. GAWLIK (For Defendants Volk and Bobermin):
Q Witness, you have stated that you could not believe that the German people had suffered so much during the war, is that correct?
A No, not quite. I was talking about a certain period of time. I referred to the period from 1941 to 1943. After 1943 the German people may have had many worries, and perhaps these worries can be compared to the worries we had about our self-preservation. However, as long as the German people were able to enjoy so many pleasures, and as long as -
Q Witness, I don't want you to give me reasons. Just answer this question with yes or no. Don't take too much of the Tribunal's time. I understood you to say that you do not believe that the German people suffered so much until 1943, isn't that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Do you call it a worry if women are mourning for their men, when children are mourning for their fathers, and when parents are trembling for their sons who are at the front? Answer this question with yes or no.
A When you say that I shouldn't take up so much of the time of the Tribunal -
Q Witness, answer.
A This question can be answered with no. However, only then -
Q Thank you, that is sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: You can't cut the witness off, although I don't want to encourage him to speak unnecessarily, but if he can't answer the question by a simple no, he has a right to answer it in his own way. I don't see that the topic you are discussing has anything to do with the indictment. I presume that we can take it for granted that when any country is at war, Germany or any other country, that there is plenty to worry about.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, here we are dealing with a question which my colleague, Dr. Hoffmann, has already mentioned. We are discussing the question of knowledge here, and the witness has just stated that the German people had knowledge by saying that they did not have any worries.
THE PRESIDENT: We aren't trying the German people for having guilty knowledge. Let's stick to the indictment.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, but after all, since the German people had knowledge, as alleged by the witness, then, of course, it can be concluded that the defendants had knowledge also.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but you are talking about worry. You are talking about worry.
DR. GAWLIK: The witness has just given us his reason, and he has answered the question of my colleague Hoffmann whether the German people, as a result of the many worries which they had, did not pay any attention to what happened in the concentration camps, and he answered that in the negative.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead; go ahead, and question him.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Do you consider it a worry when the people go to bed at night and don't know whether they will be killed by a bomb during the night?
A I have a counter question. Do you consider it a worry ...
Q You can't ask me any counter-questions. You are to answer my question with yes or no.
A Yes, that worr exists without any doubt. However, please don't interrupt me again. Let's discuss the matter here in detail, and let's make it comprehensible to the Tribunal. Just think that every second you have this torture in front of your eyes, and then look at the worry that the German people drew from the war which they had intended and which they wanted.
We didn't want a total concentration camp, but one day from the loudspeakers in the concentration camp Neuengamme I heard the question of the Fuehrer, "Do you want a total war?" and here again I can hear the millions of Germans cheering, "Yes, we do want a total war."
Q That is sufficient, Witness. You see, as a defense witness you are not here to give us any speeches, but you are only here to answer my questions.
A I have answered your question.
THE PRESIDENT: The Trouble is your questions call for speeches. Ask him something about the matters in the indictment now. Let's go back to the trial of the case.
DR. GAWLIK: At the same time, Your Honor -
THE PRESIDENT: Don't argue, Dr. Gawlik. Go ahead and ask a question.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, you further stated that you only know one white sheep in the defendants' dock, is that correct?
A I have the impression that you select your questions because you want me to trip over my testimony. Don't forget I want to give you objective answers. You are not doing any favor to your client when you want to trip me over my own statements.
THE PRESIDENT: Now you are doing the arguing. Just answer the question. I will take care of Dr. Gawlik, and you too, if necessary, but stop arguing. You had a very good chance to explain your position. Now just answer the questions.
AAmong the defendants I only know one white sheep and that is Mummenthey. I know too little of the others in order to judge them in this respect.
Q Therefore you cannot say whether in the defendants' dock we have any other white sheep, is that correct?
A No, I cannot say that
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you; that is sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other defense counsel wish to cross-examine?
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: Hr. McHaney.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Mr. Bickel, what is your present occupation?
A I am an independent merchant.
Q Will you give me the answer again, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Independent merchant.
A I am an independent merchant.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Now, in discussing the transport of invalides out of Neuengamme you mentioned the initials S.A.W., and I didn't quite understand what they meant. Will you tell us again, the initials S.A.W.?
A S.A.W. is a special department of the Wehrmacht. Those were the inmates who were taken by the Wehrmacht out of the ranks of the Wehrmacht, and they were sent to the concentration camps. These inmates were incarcerated in the concentration camps by order of the agencies of the Wehrmacht, and only the RSHA was included in that. However, it was not done on the sole initiative of the RSHA, but the Wehrmacht played an active part in this.
Q Now, Mr. Bickel, isn't it true in connection with those invalid transports which were sent to the asylum where they were killed, isn't it true that the basis for selecting those inmates was their incapacity for work, the fact that they were sick, exhausted, debilitated.
Q The selection was carried out in this case exclusively by the camp leader Luettkemeyer who was hanged a short time ago in the British Zone. Luettkemeyer was the leader and he carried out the selection according to his temper and sympathy. He was not interested in working conditions. First of all he liquidated the inmates who had come to his attention more frequently, or because they had committed disciplinary violations; and specifically, he dealt with those who had tried to escape on one or two occasions. Even then in particular he selected older Jews, who from his point of view did not consider then as being productive for concentration camp life; and as I have already stated before, especially valuable human lives were exterminated here.
Q Isn't it true, Mr. Bickel, that the camp doctor also participated to some extent in the selection of inmates for these transports?
A Yes, in general; however, in this individual case the physician was not there. In general this task was handled exclusively by the camp medical officer. May I describe the attitude of Medical Officers toward the state of affair? Let me give you an sample. The camp physician at Neuengamme, at the end of 1942, I believe, was reproached and he told that at Neuengamme there were too few people capable of working. That was in the middle of 1942 that this statement from Berlin came. The reproach connected with this was left open with regard to any conclusions which might be drawn from it. The commander in the camp and the physician now had two possibilities. They could take positive action or negative action. The positive action would have been to improve food, accommodations, and quarters of the inmates there. And the negative action would have been to exterminate the persons, including those who were working. The camp physician approved of the latter method because it was easier. For example, the time arrived when lethal injections were given.
The camp medical officer did not give orders to his subordinates, but he hinted to them that they had received a reproach that there were too many inmates incapable of working. These subordinate, SS-non-commissioned offices, now on their own initiative, exterminated inmates who were in the dispensary, sick, exhausted without regard to the labor conditions. Here we had two SS non-commissioned officers by the name of Bahr and Boening. Both of them have been hung. First of all, they would personally select the inmates, and then tey injext phenol into the hearts of these inmates. Then when there was a shortage of phenol, they would inject gasoline into the hearts of the inmates. The man Bahr developed a fantastic technique. Whenever he killed the inmates by these injections, he even succeeded in killing inmates just by injecting water into the inmates; and he would inject this water into the back of the neck. Boening worked on a different method. He worked from the back, injecting the water into the heart of the inmates. These things were certainly kept secret, and I only heard about them when I was in the hospital, and I had contacts with the inmates who worked in the dispensary. All these things only came to the knowledge of the important SS leaders later on.
Q Now, Mr. Bickel, isn't it true that the concentration camp Newengamme was very small at the time the Klinker Works of DEST was established in 1940?
A Yes, that is correct. It is not true that the concentration camp Neuengamme was first established and then the DEST. As far as the time factor is concerned, was can say the following. At Neuengamme there was a former Brick Works, and because of bankruptcy it had been ceased working. The DEST had purchased these Brick Works so that a new plant could be established in the vicinity of the old Brick Works. Originally, already in 1938, an outside detail of inmates had been assigned to the Old Brick Works which came from the concentration camp Neuengamme. Two years later, the camp was built in the area of the DEST.
The "efficiency" of the concentration camp went to the effect that he wanted to extend the camp so that it would by far exceed the original purpose established. The plant was just to serve as a place where the inmates could be taken who worked in the Klinker Works. So now other plants were constructed in that area, and during the war even, arament factories were established. Then a branch of the aramament factory, Walter Zella-Mehlis, was established under the code name of the Motal Works at Neuengamme. Then we had a factory there which would manufacture fuses for hand grenades. It was called Messer. It also used inmates. All these firms were private firms and had nothing to do with the general complex.
Q But isn't it true, Mr. Bickel, that one of the reasons for establishing the Neuengamme concentration camp was in order to operate and enlarge the Klinker Works there?
A Yes, that is correct. That is what I have just described.
Q And weren't there also other industries controlled by Amtsgruppe W of the WVHA in Newengamme, such as the DAW?
A Yes. the DAW was a competition firm of the Klinker Works. They were also located in the camp, but in a different sector.
Q Where was the DAW building? What were they manufacturing?
A The DAW produced various items, and as the name implies, they manufactured equipment for the SS. In Neuengamme, primarily wooden materials were produced -- tables, wall closets, weaving chairs, etc. Furthermore, cloth was produced, worsted was produced there, and they manufactured a special kind of upholstery, and then there were floor mats and things of that sort.
Q Now, as I recall, My. Bickel, you testified that beginning around 1938 or '39 that because of a shortage of inmates to perform work, that the Gestapo began arresting and committing persons to the concentration camp without any reason whatever, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q And that continued up until the end of the war?
A During the war these actions were not carried out from the sense of justice, but they had apparent reason in the measures which were caused by the war. For example, on one occasion an action was under way, the so-called Keitel Decree. It was called Nacht und Nebel (Night and fog). Here first of all, we were dealing with foreign inmates, and these people were brought into various concentration camps. They could not have any contact with their family, and they were treated especially bad. Later, there was another action in Denmark where the entire Danish police were brought to Neuengamme and part of them were sent to Buchenwald. In 1944 there was another action, -- I only give examples here -- where all the Norwegian students were arrested and sent to Neuengamme. These actions were ordered by the RSHA without any consideration for the fact that labor was needed everywhere. Reasons of work were not important. The Wehmacht and RSHA in many cases worked together. For example, in the Nacht und Nebel Decree, which was originated by Keitel.
Q Well, yes, witness, we are familiar with those actions to some extent here, and I think that we will all agree that persons were committed to concentration camps for a variety of reasons; but as I have understood your testimony, you have stated that a number of persons were committed primarily for the purpose of being made available for labor, for work, isn't that correct?
A Yes, that is correct. This was done, since the SS Administration which handled the lives of inmates, of course, could not admit that they could not supply the industry any more with the necessary Labor because too many of them had died. All the SS agencies were very strict in observing secrets. They did not allow anybody to look at the figures. During these years which we are discussing here, in '38 and '39, there was a very fierce competition between the RSHA and its agencies and the agencies of the main office Economy and Administration. The figures of the dead in the RSHA did not become known to the economic enterprises, and normally speaking, they could not become known to the economic enterprises.
In order to meet the requirements of labor allocation -- at that time Standartenfuehrer Mauer was in charge of that, who was working between the Main Office Administration and Economy and the RSHA -- and he knew precisely by virtue of the capacity of the plant, just how many inmates he needed. However, he also saw just how many inmates were actually not there.
Now Maurer occupied a chief position here and the men in the RSHA liked it very much since they were trying to claim the superiority of the Nordic race, and they wanted to exterminate the people who did not fit into the Nordic, superior race, and they wanted to see these people enter the concentration camps. Therefore, the desire to obtain labor had a very fertile ground here. The way in which this action was carried out did not have any influence on the economic sector of the SS. Here, everything was handled by the people around Heydrich.
THE PRESIDENT: Try to control your witness, Mr. McHaney. I think you can do it.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q Mr. Bickel, are you familiar with the construction work carried out by Amtsgruppe C of the WVHA?
A I don't know what construction work you are referring to.
Q Well, do you know whether or not the SS had construction gangs, that is, construction brigades, working in Neuengamme?
A Yes-
Q That is sufficient. Now, did those construction birgades assist in the establishment, the building, of the Klinker works at Neuengamme?
A No, that was another point to show just how the SS worked against each other. The SS had its own construction brigades. This was called construction management of the Police and the SS. The management was located at Berlin Zehlendorf, on Karlstrasse -- but I don't know the number any more. The branch office Neuengamme of the construction management was next to the DAW, and both agencies were located in the same barracks. Of course, it would have been logical that the construction management of the SS should have collaborated with the economic enterprises. They should have been even consolidated since, after all, the economics enterprises of the SS had to deal so much with construction matters of the firms; and here in these circles construction experts and technicians existed to such a large number.
However, some SS-man was in charge here, who watched zealously that he would not lose authority, but he wanted to increase it. Things went so far that at Neuengamme, the biggest dispute arose between the Klinker Works on the one hand and the construction management on the other hand. The construction management did not even want to purchase its stones and construction material from us.
Q Mr. Bickel, when I ask you the question, just give us a short answer and then, if I want any explanation, to clarify it for the Tribunal or for myself, I will ask you for it.
Now, did this construction brigade, to your knowledge, have anything to do with the construction of the crematorium in Neuengamme? Yes or No?
A The crematorium at Neuengamme was constructed by the Central Construction Management of the Police and SS at Neuengamme. The headquarters at Neuengamme ordered this construction to be carried out. The crematorium before that time was a so-called double-field crematorium, and here we had two mobile crematorium from the field. They had been surrounded by a large layer of pieces of grass and it worked until the year of 1943 -- or early 1944. In 1944 the big crematorium was built and it had not been quite completed until 1945. We began to operate it first in 1944 but it was to receive two more stoves. I have photographs of that crematorium at my disposal.
Q Well, let's pass that for the moment. Now, will you tell me briefly how many inmates were working in the Klinker Works at Neuengamme?
A The number of inmates in the Klinker Works at Neuengamme varrie. During the construction period we had approximately 150 men, and the maximum figure was approximately 1200. Then the construction work went down to approximately 150 men. When the number of inmates in construct ion work decreased the working detachments came into action.
In the camp itself we had from approximately 600 to 700 inmates.
We can reach the average figure of 800 men. On some occasions, when some special order was issued, a thousand people may have worked there. The figure of the inmates constantly decreased because the plant became increasingly mechanized.
Q Now, you mentioned that there were a few Jews at Neuengamme. in 1942 or 43. Did you have any Jews at Neuengamme?
A In the Klinker Works of Neuengamma we could only keep very few Jews, and we had several experts. Amongst them we had an expert in glass and I told him to take off his Jewish star so that we could be able to hide him in this way. Normally, no Jew could be employed in the plant. The Jews were either in the punitive detachment, as I stated this morning, or they were engaged in some other work. Occasionally, in 1940, or perhaps in 1941, Jews came for a very short period of time. However, we did not keep them as permanent workers, with the exception of this one glass expert.
In 1942, when the order was issued that all Jews were to be deported from Neuengamme, he also had to go.
Q Were there any prisoners of war employed in the Klinker Works at Neuengamme?
A Prisoners of war arrived in August, 1941. They were used for work which had to be carried out in the scope of the Klinker Works. They were used in order to construct a clay pit. However, they were not assigned to the detachment working at the Klinker plant. And here we were only dealing with a project which employed Soviet prisoners of war.
About the labor assignment of the Soviet prisoners of war a decision was to be reached later on. However, a clear decision was not reached anymore because the quarantine period started, and of the 1200 prisoners of war who had come to the camp, only approximately 200 were left. The remainder again was returned to prisoner of war camps, early in 1942. The prisoners of war were kept separately from us in the camp, and they were subjected to special treatment ordered by the RSHA and the SD.
They were treated so brutally that even the inmates-although we did not have very much, and although we could not be to comradely as a result of our bad condition -- would share the little food we had with the Russian prisoners of war.
I assume that the Tribunal will doubt the truth of my words. It is incomprehensible that a civilized nation will treat prisoners of war like that, but the food consisted of raw unpeeled potatoes and unpeeled beets. They were boiled together. There would be 95 percent water and five percent beets.
That is what the Russians received for lunch. In the morning each of them received approximately half a cup of coffee and one little piece of bread through which you "could see the light." That was their food.......
Their accommodations were actually nil. They were kept in a wooden barracks, and one even refused to give them a little straw or hay which would even be given an animal. They had no straw or any wood-shavings from which they could fashion a bed....They had nothing whatsoever.
Q Now, witness, eren't the working conditions in the clay pit, for example, in the Klinker Works, extremely harsh and severe? Wasn't there water frequently in the bottom of that pit in which the inmate had to stand? Didn't they have to work there in extremely cold weather?
A The living conditions in the Klinker Works varied. I must correct myself here. I m an the working conditions. In the work itself, when compared to the other work which was done in the concentration camp, working conditions were good because here most of the people could work under a roof. A relatively high percentage of the inmates were occupied with work for which they were qualified. For example, they had to work on steam engines, or they had drying facilities and dredges and so on. There were many craftsmen there and electricians From this point of view, in the Klinker Works, as far as the other work which existed concerned, working conditions were good.
The work improved in other places as the war progressed because more and more inmates were used in the armament industries where they received work for which they were qualified, however, the work in the so-called clay pits was very heavy work. Later on the commandant selected the work in the clay pit for his private punitive detachment. Before the punitive detachment had to go into the clay pit various strong inmates were used in the clay pit. And as far as we were able to handle it, the people working in the clay pit would receive a special allotment of bread. Whenever we had some bread left over we would give it to the inmates who worked in the clay pit.
The same thing was done when lunch was distributed. They would received something extra.
Do you want me to explain that matter more closely, or can you understand it now?
Q I can understand it. I have a few more questions to ask. How many me did they have working in the clay pit normally?
A The number varied. In the clay pit itself about 30 to 40 men would be working. Whenever the clay pit was particularly large there were approximately 50 men. We could not use and more people there because -- as I have already stated -- the clay pits were distributed over the entire area wherever a layer of clay was laid bare.
Q And you actually observed the inmates working in these clay pits.
A Yes.
Q Did you notice that frequently they were standing in water without proper footwear, without boots?
A The inmates who worked in the clay pits, as far as they were assigned to the plant, and later on as far as the punitive detachment was concerned, had the right to be given rubber shoes. And I myself tried to procure these shoes for them. The plant managers -
and Mummenthey also -- supported the idea of obtaining rubber boots for those workers. If he did not have sufficient number of them, we still had almost enough rubber boots at our disposal. Of course, according to the situation which existed in Germany, these rubber boots could not be immediately replaced. And consequently, the inmates had to run around with wet feet. That was part of the conditions which prevailed at the time.
When the punitive detachment worked in the clay p9t we also tried to obtain rubber boots for them. The sam thing applied to protective clothing.