Q Witness, when were you arrested for the first time?
A In September, 1935. From that day on I was under arrest until February, 1945, and I was finally liberated on the 3rd of May, 1945.
Q Witness, what did you know about the concentration camps from 1933 up to the time when you were arrested?
A I only knew what I read about them in a book in Zurich in 1934. The name of the book was "The Hell Hear the Border of Woods in Esterwegen." That was the camp where I finally ended up myself.
Q Would you have had a possibility to know anything about the concentration camps without your having been abroad, in Zurich and Switzerland that is?
A Probably yes, at least after 1935, it would have been possible since from our point of view, that is from the point of view of the concentration camp inmates, we believe that actually, if the German people had wanted to, they could have kept their eyes somewhat open. They would have been able to see. They must have seen. The story I always have to listen to now is: "I didn't know anything and I didn't see anything." That is absolutely untrue. One could only say that the German people did not want to see anything, and they thought it much more simple to keep their eyes shut. If I think it much simpler to keep my eyes shut, then I shut my eyes. Then I simply can't see. They claim they couldn't see. Naturally, because they had their eyes closed.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Don't you think they kept their eyes and ears shut because of fear?
A No, definitely not. Out of fear you wouldn't have to close your eyes in order not to see. I can keep my mouth shut after I have seen something because I am afraid, but at the moment when I close my eyes I still don't know what I am closing my eyes for, but the moment I know that I am shutting my eyes because of something that might scare me, I already saw.
Then I can't say I didn't see anything.
Q Well, perhaps I was too figurative. They didn't read newspapers and they didn't listen to the radio. That is what I mean by closing their eyes and ears. Do you think they did that because they were afraid?
A You mean that the people did that because they were afraid?
Q Because they were afraid.
A The concentration camps were so numerous in Germany, near every larger city there was a concentration camp, and again and again there were connections between the inmates and the population. You had on onhand the connection between inmates in camps and the population on the other side, and everyone could notice those things who did want to notice them. In Oranienburg there were tens of thousands of inmates. Nearby you had Berlin. In Neuengamme you had 10,000. Hamburg is right near there. Everyone of them must have seen something at sometime. Whoever saw it must have passed the story on. Then in every civilized state of the world, with the exception of Germany, of course, there would have been a disturbance, which would not have been occasioned by the heart of human beings, but rather it would have been a disturbance due to the feelings of humanity in every human being, and due to this disturbance of the human feelings on the part of a human being it would have been their duty to see what was to be seen. But it was much simpler not to see, and the "blessings" of the Third Reich could be enjoyed much better by the German people while they had their eyes shut. It was much simpler in the evening to go to the KDF meeting without having seen anything. It was much better to wear one's decorations and the uniform while not seeing anything. However, it still should have been their duty to see what was going on.
Q Witness, did one go to Sachsenhausen, for instance, and walk through the gate of the concentration camp and visit it?
A One of the most important prerequisites was that every connection was interrupted between the inmate and his family.
Q In order to come back to your description, witness, how was it that a person could possibly find out what was going on behind the walls of Sachsenhausen if one could not enter, particularly since you didn't have my connections with your family?
A Let me give you two examples, from a group of many. In May, 1940 the death figure in Sachsenhausen was more than the crematorium could possibly take care of. Thereupon an auxiliary crematorium was used in a nearby city. I think it was Fuerstenwalde. The boxes with the dead, black, rough boxes, were loaded on hired trucks, and such a truck with the trailer full of dead inmates turned over. It took quite a while to block off that road. In the meantime, people saw it. That should have acted like an atomic bomb on the feelings of the German people because they had seen this. And with the same zeal that Hitler's victories was putting spirit in the hearts of Hitler's followers, this should have gone to the hearts of the German people. Let me give you another example. When we came from Sachsenhausen to Neuengamme, we had to get out at the railroad station of Neuengamme and walk through the village there for a whole hour. Everyone of the people saw it. From Neuengamme we had to take care of some canal there by the name of Dove-Elbe. That place of work was approximately one hour and 15 minutes to one hour and 30 minutes from our camp. We had to walk that distance. In their desperation some of our comrades would commit suicide rather than go to work. Sometimes you could find 3 or 4 inmates on the road from the concentration camp to the working place. These inmates had broken through the line, or had fallen out, or had broken through the chain of guards, and these guards shot them. They committed suicide this way. All those things were seen by the population there.
That was in the morning, but they also saw our return when we came back from our place of work. I don't see how such a return march could possibly pass unobserved in other countries such as France or in Sweden without speaking, of course, of a highly democratic country like America. A long column of one thousand inmates is jogging along the road. All men are tired. At the end of the column we have 30 or 40 push carts. We have one inmate at each push cart. The head of the dead inmate is banging against the wheel of the push cart. The SS-men shoot, the SS-men let those bloodhounds loose on the half-dying inmates in order to kill them; four or five men are tied together with another inmate who is about half-dead. Nothing but a long mournful column, day for day, and hour for hour. Half on the left and right side of them, were the German people of culture, namely, the Nation of Goethe. Now some German comes along, or someone else, and tells me that this one single picture would not have been enough to react like an atomic bomb on the feelings of the German people. It should have been an atomic bomb in the feelings of their hearts. But it is much simpler not to see anything. It was much more clever not to say anything. It was too easy not to see anything.
Q Witness, with regard to the conclusions which you reached about such a long column of human beings, and the people dying left and right, for instance, when you described the truck which tipped over, and you say this should have acted like an atomic bomb on the feelings of the German people. I would like to discuss three more things with you: First of all, you said that in Germany every large city had its concentration camp. I don't believe that was the case at any time, but if so, it must have been later on, that is, during the last few months. Shall we say from 1943 to 1945 and after that?
A Yes, you are quite right. The concentration camps were not very numerous from 1933 on, but we could really say '41 that was the start ing point when on the average there was no German, except, of course, if he was in a lunatic asylum, who did not know anything about the existence and character of the concentration camps.
I was a person who was amongst the inmates and I can really tell you about it. And with the exception of those few who were sympathetic for humanitarian reasons, the mass of the German population found it too nice and agreeable to follow their great Fuehrer by looking upon us inmates as dirt on the road.
Q Witness, here again I want to come back to the facts. You described your story in 1940 when a truck turned over full of the dead inmates. Where was that?
A That was in a village on the road between the concentration camp Sachsenhausen and the crematorium. I don't remember very well whether it was Fuerstenwalde or something similar. That was the place where the concentration camp Ravensbrueck was.
Q Not in Berlin?
A No, not in Berlin.
Q Don't you think, witness, that apart from this one exception, do you think if a truck turned over in Berlin in the middle of a large road, some thoroughfare, don't you think it would have taken the radio and newspapers to make such an occurrence known all over Germany?
A No, that is absolutely out of the question. Within a few days we knew in Neuengamme what was going on in Mauthausen. The rumors had begun. This great man Goebbels proved that there was also rumor propaganda which was coming from our side. At least it would have been successful. It is surprising that it can't be explained very well, how quickly news which might be of decisive importance can be passed on by mouth to mouth and locality to locality. I only gave you one example before, but I could extend that example and give you dozens of them. But I am not doing this here in order to make reproaches. The only thing is that we have to explain this phenomenon known as the SS.
As I said this morning without the attitude of the German people to help the SS by subordinating themselves to the SS, nothing would have happened.
Q Witness, you stated that you also had a rumor propaganda and that you could have started one. It is to be assumed, isn't it, witness, that you did that?
A Yes, of course, we did that.
Q Don't you think that this propaganda was stopped for the very simple reason that due to the fact that the rumors which you passed on also came back to you, isn't that a fact?
A It takes some courage to carry on a rumor, propaganda, you see, Mr. Defense Counsel, and that was the thing that the German people were lacking. There was a lack of courage. This little bit of courage which was necessary was replaced by the German people by just taking things easy.
Q Witness, I am not fighting your statements. I just can't follow your line of thoughts about your statement that according to what you told us, every German should know about the things going on in the concentration camps. Isn't that a subjective idea that you have from the inside of the concentration camp? Don't you think it is, witness?
A I never did say, and I am controlling myself very much to say that the Germans were supposed to know everything, but I state, and I am asserting that, and I am under the influence of objectivity. I believe that within every German life, that is between 1936 and 1945, there was at least one little thing that was heard. This little thing should have started a fire of holy will power, and that feeling should be found out there today (pointing toward the street).
Q Witness, in your testimony you stated that while you were working in Neuengamme you saw a certain amount of servility in the letters which were being sent to your plant. Do you want to say that in general?
Did you ever speak about this with some workers, or does your statement only limit itself to the directors and business managers.
This knowledge on which I have based my assertion came from the contact with all circles concerned. By that I mean workers, farmers, craftsmen up to the economic leaders of the governmental chiefs, and other chiefs. The man who was in charge of a large city, like Hamburg. I never did want to hold anything against these people. All I can do is give one explanation. I believe I can help this Tribunal much more by giving you an explanation rather than giving you my opinion -- which comes from a subjective attitude.
The situation was the people in the group of defendants who are sitting here could not possibly notice it in their uniforms. To use one term, they only had an imaginary power in their uniforms. That is the only way they actually gained power. If I imagined some power I have and think about it all the time, then I am powerful. I will go beyond my power and be very powerful. That is incriminating for the people, and you have to extent that guilt. The basis of guilt has to be extended.
Now, you have a paymaster who works on a ship, who was a good officer. If you put him in charge of a large, mammoth-sized economic enterprise, then it is clear that he does not know how to handle it. After all, it must have taken a movement from below which only gave power to the term SS. In all those circles they immediately quit resisting, and they couldn't see any further.
Q Witness-
THE PRESIDENT: Start over again Dr. Hoffmann. Start again.
BY DR. HOFFMANN (Counsel for defendant Scheide):
Q Witness, I would like to ask you two more reasons now which I want you to check on, and tell me if that is your opinion about those points and if not, please change it. There were soldiers who, already in 1939 had been conscripted into the Wehrmacht and who were fighting on the front lines. There were some soldiers who received leave once in a while.
How do you think that they found out about what was going on in the concentration camps?
A We had also Wehrmacht members when we used guards in the concentration camps. We had Air Forces men, naval men, and infantry men. I already explained this morning how this spirit worked on these SS people the moment they passed the barbed wire fences. That applied to the Wehrmacht members also. They were not better and they were not any worse.
Q Witness, the German Wehrmacht had approximately ten million members. I don't know if that figure is correct. Now, if five or six thousand of them--which is just a small number which I just took out-were also used as guards in the concentration camps, and then had knowledge, how do you think that these five or six thousand could inform all the other ten millions about the whole thing. That couldn't possibly get through, do you think, witness?
A For us there was no reason to examine and to weight between the two as to how much the Wehrmacht knew about it, about the treatment which we suffered, and if it agreed with the treatment which we were receiving. All we knew was that the Wehrmacht agreed with the madmen in Berlin. We knew that the Wehrmacht was doing everything even dying themselves, in order to be able to support the powers in Berlin. But we also knew that the Wehrmacht was sending men from its own rank into the concentration camps. If they only had done anything against the National Socialist character of the Wehrmacht. It was already in '38 or '39 that I met quite a few comrades of the Special Department "Wehrmacht". We called it "SAW", amongst ourselves. I saw some of these boys die; I saw them suffer and die. Those were the people who were went to the camp.
Q Witness, you further testified that it was much easier to participate in KDF programs than to show humanitarian feelings, I mean it was simpler, wasn't it?
As far as I gained knowledge of all those things in these traisl, the concentration camps became horrible from '40 to '41 to '42. Don't you think that a part of the German population already had its own troubles and its own worries so that quite a few things didn't penetrate as far as they were as it would have before? Don't you think so?
A I don't believe that the Germans had such a lot of trouble. I didn't see their trouble. I only heard about it from the papers and when we sometimes listened to the radio--we listened to it once in a while. All we heard was the number of pleasures they had, the number of joys which the German people had in the early days of the war. And we found out that only one thousandth of one thousandth of all this pleasure and joy was turned toward us. If they had been able to do that we would have been able to save many, many who died.
Mr. Defense Counsel, I hope that maybe you don't think that I am acting too subjectively, but, after all, the wound is too deep and it is still fresh; it has been only two a half years. I don't know if you should ask me any further questions in this field, Mr. Defense Counsel, but we have our own opinion. I came here with the real will to be as objective as possible, and I know that there is one man sitting in the defendants' dock who, as seen from my small point of view, is excepted from the entire hate which we have for all these men. He is the "white sheep".
Don't forget that if the Allies wouldn't have taken over the question of the SS and the concentration camps, and if they would have left it to us, then there would have been no trial; and, with the exception of this one defendant who is the white sheep here, Mummenthey, none of the defendants would be alive today... If the allies wouldn't have been here, then I am sure that our subjective hate would have taken care of all those people in a summary manner.
And I am sure God would have forgiven us. It is our duty. But those of us who were in the camps have the rights and the duty to comply with the orders on the part of the Allied forces and to be objective about it.
A Human being is a human being, and whoever says he is more than a human being is a dog. All I can tell you is that objectivity, after such long troubles and pain, is absolutely difficult--very very difficult.
Q Witness, I hope you didn't think that I didn't want to believe you, but, after all, that is the whole idea which prevails here, namely to put certain arguments before you. Those are the rights we have in this Tribunal.
A Yes, absolutely, you can avail yourself of this. I am speaking about the collective guilt of the German people as compared to the collective guilt of the German soldier.
DR. HOFFMANN: No further questions.
BY DR. BELZER: (Counsel for defendant Sommer):
Q Witness, I would like to start from that answer of yours which you gave to one of the questions put to you by Judge Phillips; the figure of the dead in the concentration camp of Neuengamma was given by you for the period of time of five years as 38,000 men. Is that correct?
A Yes, that figure is correct.
Q May I ask you now, witness, to tell the Tribunal where you gained that knowledge?
A I gained that knowledge from my own activity within the Scope of work of investigating the concentration camp of Neuengamma in the last two years. I also know it from one of my comrades who is working in my enterprise now, and he used to be in the concentration camp with me, who found out that these figures as a camp clerk and as a roll call clerk.
The figure of 38,000 dead is the correct figure.
Q You furthermore stated the strength of the concentration camp of Neuengamme by saying that it was 10,000 per year, is that correct?
A That figure of 10,000 is nothing but an average figure, and it is an approximate figure in addition. During the establishment in 1940, when we arrived there were approximately 2,200 men. When it was dissolved in 1945 there were 16,000 or 17,000 men in the camp. Now, if you take an average figure there you could possibly say about 10,000 men per year. But, when I figured that number of dead I was also approximating. Then, if you have a difference between the two you have to consider the few releases.
Q This figure, 10,000 men, as the strength of the concentration camp Neuenganne only refers to the actual camp, or the camp proper?
A The camp of Neuengamme used the last inmate number, it was 84,000 and, as I stated before 38,000 out of these 84,000 had died. Of course, we should include here the outside details which were quite numerous, and which had been distributed all over large areas in a varied manner. The conditions of the outside details were varied. There were a few details which were, relatively speaking, better; and there were a few of them which were absolutely bad.
In this figure of 38,000 I am also including those who had been exterminated in mass executions due to Special Actions. They did have a certain inmate number in the camp. For instance, we had mass exterminations which were called some sort of a "purifying" execution when a number of people were killed in order to eliminate the bad elements in the group.
In the Summer of 1941, a transport of selected inmates left, some of whom had been outstanding and particularly those last few Jews whom we had, and there were also professors and doctors who had contributed quite a bit to humanity.
Then you had your SAW, people who had been released from the Wehrmacht, who had been dismissed because they could no longer be used for the service. These people were hardly permitted to have any clothes, and they were sent near Halle, a small place. There was a lunatic asylum there, and they were injected with some poison, and they died. Approximately fourteen days later, or two weeks later their clothes came back to the camp, and, eight days later the inmates who were in the political department of the camp and were employed there, were told to close the files of those inmates, and to mark them with the black cross. Thus fiftythousand people were marked with the black cross. That was the first purifying process which I mentioned, but, I don't know if you want me to talk any more about the number of the dead.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you many more questions?
DR. BELZER: Just one more question, Your Honor.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q From the document which has been submitted, it can be seen that the concentration camp of Neuengamme was stronger in 1945 by having 55,000 men in there, including the outside details?
A 50,000 men. It may be correct that shortly before the capitulation a certain number of inmates had been already evacuated to Bergen-Belsen, and also other outside details, and these people were a part again of Neuengamme. The figure of 55,000 was the normal strength of the entire camp; the normal capacity in fact of Neuengamme; for instance, in 1945, when Buchenwald and Sachsenhausen were being dissolved, and everything and everybody was being sent to Neuengamme, the conditions were such that the inmates at Neuengamme were sleeping with five men in one cot, and those beds were pretty narrow. This figure of 55,000 can not be used as a comparative figure.
Q Including the outside camps?
A Yes, including the outside camps. This figure itself is increased by the collapse, and can only come from the last few days of the war.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other examination?
BY DR. GAWLIK (For Defendants Volk and Bobermin):
Q Witness, you have stated that you could not believe that the German people had suffered so much during the war, is that correct?
A No, not quite. I was talking about a certain period of time. I referred to the period from 1941 to 1943. After 1943 the German people may have had many worries, and perhaps these worries can be compared to the worries we had about our self-preservation. However, as long as the German people were able to enjoy so many pleasures, and as long as -
Q Witness, I don't want you to give me reasons. Just answer this question with yes or no. Don't take too much of the Tribunal's time. I understood you to say that you do not believe that the German people suffered so much until 1943, isn't that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Do you call it a worry if women are mourning for their men, when children are mourning for their fathers, and when parents are trembling for their sons who are at the front? Answer this question with yes or no.
A When you say that I shouldn't take up so much of the time of the Tribunal -
Q Witness, answer.
A This question can be answered with no. However, only then -
Q Thank you, that is sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: You can't cut the witness off, although I don't want to encourage him to speak unnecessarily, but if he can't answer the question by a simple no, he has a right to answer it in his own way. I don't see that the topic you are discussing has anything to do with the indictment. I presume that we can take it for granted that when any country is at war, Germany or any other country, that there is plenty to worry about.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, here we are dealing with a question which my colleague, Dr. Hoffmann, has already mentioned. We are discussing the question of knowledge here, and the witness has just stated that the German people had knowledge by saying that they did not have any worries.
THE PRESIDENT: We aren't trying the German people for having guilty knowledge. Let's stick to the indictment.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, but after all, since the German people had knowledge, as alleged by the witness, then, of course, it can be concluded that the defendants had knowledge also.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but you are talking about worry. You are talking about worry.
DR. GAWLIK: The witness has just given us his reason, and he has answered the question of my colleague Hoffmann whether the German people, as a result of the many worries which they had, did not pay any attention to what happened in the concentration camps, and he answered that in the negative.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead; go ahead, and question him.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Do you consider it a worry when the people go to bed at night and don't know whether they will be killed by a bomb during the night?
A I have a counter question. Do you consider it a worry ...
Q You can't ask me any counter-questions. You are to answer my question with yes or no.
A Yes, that worr exists without any doubt. However, please don't interrupt me again. Let's discuss the matter here in detail, and let's make it comprehensible to the Tribunal. Just think that every second you have this torture in front of your eyes, and then look at the worry that the German people drew from the war which they had intended and which they wanted.
We didn't want a total concentration camp, but one day from the loudspeakers in the concentration camp Neuengamme I heard the question of the Fuehrer, "Do you want a total war?" and here again I can hear the millions of Germans cheering, "Yes, we do want a total war."
Q That is sufficient, Witness. You see, as a defense witness you are not here to give us any speeches, but you are only here to answer my questions.
A I have answered your question.
THE PRESIDENT: The Trouble is your questions call for speeches. Ask him something about the matters in the indictment now. Let's go back to the trial of the case.
DR. GAWLIK: At the same time, Your Honor -
THE PRESIDENT: Don't argue, Dr. Gawlik. Go ahead and ask a question.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, you further stated that you only know one white sheep in the defendants' dock, is that correct?
A I have the impression that you select your questions because you want me to trip over my testimony. Don't forget I want to give you objective answers. You are not doing any favor to your client when you want to trip me over my own statements.
THE PRESIDENT: Now you are doing the arguing. Just answer the question. I will take care of Dr. Gawlik, and you too, if necessary, but stop arguing. You had a very good chance to explain your position. Now just answer the questions.
AAmong the defendants I only know one white sheep and that is Mummenthey. I know too little of the others in order to judge them in this respect.
Q Therefore you cannot say whether in the defendants' dock we have any other white sheep, is that correct?
A No, I cannot say that
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you; that is sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other defense counsel wish to cross-examine?
(No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: Hr. McHaney.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Mr. Bickel, what is your present occupation?
A I am an independent merchant.
Q Will you give me the answer again, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Independent merchant.
A I am an independent merchant.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Now, in discussing the transport of invalides out of Neuengamme you mentioned the initials S.A.W., and I didn't quite understand what they meant. Will you tell us again, the initials S.A.W.?
A S.A.W. is a special department of the Wehrmacht. Those were the inmates who were taken by the Wehrmacht out of the ranks of the Wehrmacht, and they were sent to the concentration camps. These inmates were incarcerated in the concentration camps by order of the agencies of the Wehrmacht, and only the RSHA was included in that. However, it was not done on the sole initiative of the RSHA, but the Wehrmacht played an active part in this.
Q Now, Mr. Bickel, isn't it true in connection with those invalid transports which were sent to the asylum where they were killed, isn't it true that the basis for selecting those inmates was their incapacity for work, the fact that they were sick, exhausted, debilitated.
Q The selection was carried out in this case exclusively by the camp leader Luettkemeyer who was hanged a short time ago in the British Zone. Luettkemeyer was the leader and he carried out the selection according to his temper and sympathy. He was not interested in working conditions. First of all he liquidated the inmates who had come to his attention more frequently, or because they had committed disciplinary violations; and specifically, he dealt with those who had tried to escape on one or two occasions. Even then in particular he selected older Jews, who from his point of view did not consider then as being productive for concentration camp life; and as I have already stated before, especially valuable human lives were exterminated here.
Q Isn't it true, Mr. Bickel, that the camp doctor also participated to some extent in the selection of inmates for these transports?
A Yes, in general; however, in this individual case the physician was not there. In general this task was handled exclusively by the camp medical officer. May I describe the attitude of Medical Officers toward the state of affair? Let me give you an sample. The camp physician at Neuengamme, at the end of 1942, I believe, was reproached and he told that at Neuengamme there were too few people capable of working. That was in the middle of 1942 that this statement from Berlin came. The reproach connected with this was left open with regard to any conclusions which might be drawn from it. The commander in the camp and the physician now had two possibilities. They could take positive action or negative action. The positive action would have been to improve food, accommodations, and quarters of the inmates there. And the negative action would have been to exterminate the persons, including those who were working. The camp physician approved of the latter method because it was easier. For example, the time arrived when lethal injections were given.