Court No. II, Case No. 4.
It would have been necessary, since the SS was not well organized at all, since one person was struggling against the other, and since all SS officers were trying to centralize as much power as possible in their own hands, that a really capable person should have been able to use this economic sector in order to improve the structure of the SS. He could not have remedied the situation completely, but he could have seen to it that he could have constituted a blessing to the extent that many human beings could have been kept alive in the economic field.
In order to come back to Mummenthey-
THE PRESIDENT: We will start with Mummenthey at a quarter of two, please.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 1 August 1947) HELMUT BICKEL - Resumed Direct examination - continued
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Dr. Froeschmann, for the defendant Mummenthey.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, at the end of your testimony this morning, you told us certain facts which were of very great importance. You spoke about the collective guilt of the German people, to what extent they were really responsible and you said, that they were guilty for not having struggled against the people who were in power at the time in Germany because of their blind sense of obedience. You spoke of the collective guilt also in connection with these defendants. You did not speak of any legal collective guilt. You did not speak of a moral collective guilt, but, yet, you did speak of collective guilt to the effect that they in their positions considered themselves to be extremely important, yet they tried to master certain things which they could not master. I don't believe that I am wrong in understanding you to have said that this collective guilt of the defendants only constitutes part of the great collective guilt of the entire German people, isn't that true? In this connection I want you to answer my last question. How do you actually judge the actions of Mummenthey, his attitude, his ideas, his intentions, his measures, and his success and failure?
A. In summing up all I have said about Mummenthey up to now, perhaps, it would be best for me to give you the following single factor that applies to everything: Mummenthey was wearing the uniform of an SS-officer.
As far as his attitude towards the inmates is concerned, and that alone interests me, I can only say the following: Amongst the SS-officers he was a "White-sheep". That, Mr. Defense Counsel, is so clear already that you only need a few statements to clarify that point. He did not do us any harm; his actions as an office chief were not bad for us. He did not hit anybody directly, nor did he harm anybody indirectly through his orders. Actually, it is only natural that a person should not be a murderer, but for us it was something royal, something big, that there were still people in the SS who did not consider it one of their daily normal routine tasks to harrass people, to mistreat people, and to murder them. If you consider something natural as constituting a special privilege or even mercy, then you will see my point. Here we can offer one point in Mummenthey's favor. Perhaps, according to his character he was not quite fit to act as his SS-uniform prescribed him to act. He is a soft man. He is not a militarist. He is a good assessor. He is not a good economist. He is a sociologist according to his character, and perhaps as a hobby, he was not a good teacher. That is how you can explain Mummenthey's attitude and personality, as it expressed itself in his behavior towards the inmates. I have nothing further to say about him.
Q Witness, I have now reached the end of my direct examination, but I would like you to clarify one more point for us. When you spoke about the SS in your detailed statements, did you refer to the SS circles you were in contact with, that is to say the circles in the concentration camp and whatever goes along with it, or did you refer to the SS circles who were fighting in the front line as members of the Waffen SS and who sacrificed their lives for their Fatherland?
A Even these SS murderers who murdered my comrades and mistreated me also used the fulfillment of their duty as their basic motto. To what extent their duty in murdering and mistreating concentration camp inmates varied from what was done in the front line, I can't tell you. I can only compare the actions of the SS men who came to us from the front line and those SS men who had never been in the front line: all of them acted alike. The SS man who was assigned as a guard in a concentration camp or as officer of the guard in a concentration camp, the moment he entered that barbed wire fence simply became a member of a group of murderers. In order to give an example there was an SS-Obersturmfuehrer who had just returned from front line duty and he had a small terrier and while working one of the inmates, a Jew, while pushing his little push-cart, unintentionally, hit this little dog. The dog just gave a little yelp; that was all that happened. This SS man liked the dog so much, however, that for that reason, because the man had molested the little dog, he killed the inmate. That is how much he liked the animal and hated the human being. That was not his character. That was simply the outstanding position which he held and where he had power over the life and death of the inmates. For the SS men it was the sacred duty toward the Fuehrer - to kill an inmate as brutally as possible. I am differentiating here between the SS men who had power over us in the concentration camps and those in the economic enterprises. There was much difference. The SS men in the economic enterprises could not get behind the barbed wire because their field of work was so different.
Q Your Honor, I have no further questions to the witness.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Did you ever see any of the defendants in the dock visit Neuengamme besides the defendant Mummenthey?
A Yes.
Q Who?
A I saw Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
Q How many times did you see Pohl there?
A Several times. I described one occasion yesterday, towards the end of the summer of 1942. Then the second visit there in contrast to the first unannounced visit, was previously announced, namely when Pohl visited the camp and the commandant knew about it beforehand and the commandant prepared everything. The little Major -that was the commandant - gave the great General Pohl, a wonderful show-job. When the visit was announced everything was cleaned up and everything that did not look good was taken away so that he was able to point out to the Gruppenfuehrer: "This is my camp! Look how clean it is! I have everything in order." They had already removed the dead and those who were about to die. They were placed in a special wooden barracks on one of Pohl's visits. On another occasion the half-dead inmates were chased out into the fields. I don't know how many times I saw Pohl in Neuengamme - it may have been more than twice. I cannot recall it anymore precisely.
Q Whom else did you see there besides Pohl?
A I saw Oberfuehrer Baier. He simply dealt with questions of bookkeeping. He didn't inspect the concentration camp. He only stayed at the plant. It is quite possible that others of the defendants were there and that I saw them. I know quite a few of them by their faces but I couldn't identify them now. There is a difference in their clothes, because then they wore their beautiful sparkling uniforms.
Q The witness Kruse testified that you had some recollection of... testified that he was in Neuengamme from 1942 and for some considerable time after that and that in January 1943 the death rate was so high that 1,200 inmates died in the month of January. What do you say as to that?
A In January of what year, Your Honor?
Q 43.
A I don't remember the exact death rate in 1943. The death rate curve varied considerably. Sometimes these people died due to epidemics, sometimes because the camp was overcrowded. In any case you can figure out the death rate in percentages. Apart from this a great number of people died in the last weeks because conditions became worse all of a sudden. In 1940 we had the largest death rate and then between 1941 to 1942 during the quarantine period, in the month of December of 41 and January and February of 1942 the death rate was highest. I would assume that between 43 and 44 there were certain reasons for the death rate not being so high.
Q You testified that during the years 1942 and 1943 that the average death rate was from 8 to 20% per month according to the weather conditions.
A Neuengamme, from the time of its establishment, until it was dissolved had a total of 38,000 dead in five years, that amounts to approximately 8,000 dead a year. Now, if you take the average strength of the camp at 10,000 it would be 80% a year dead, divided by 12, this would be 6½ to 7%.
Q Per month?
A Yes, per month.
Q The witness further testified that he worked under Mummenthey as chief of Office W-I for a period of 4 months in the office. Do you know anything about that?
A That he had worked under Mummenthey in Neuengamme is absolutely impossible.
Mummenthey was in Berlin all the time. Inmates were also employed in Mummenthey's office in Berlin.
Q Not in the office at Berlin as I understood it but in the office at Neuengamme under Mummenthey.
A What is the witness' name?
Q Kruse.
A Kruse did work in my office for a short while at a time when Mummenthey -- I can remember Kruse very well now, I believe in 1941 or 1943 for a short period of time Kruse worked in my office and he had to do statistical work from the individual processes of manufacture. He was a man of medium build. He was a good comrade and then he became sick. Immediately after he became sick he was sent to outside details. While working I don't believe he could have gained any knowledge of internal matters. I was very careful when I spoke to my comrades although I did inform them of the structure of the DEST. It is not correct that he was in Neuengamme three of four months and worked there in the office, at least while Mummenthey was chief in Berlin. It is possible that before he came to my office he worked in the Klinker Works on something entirely different, possibly doing manual work, or auxiliary work or something else. In any case from that type of work he was doing he couldn't have gained any knowledge about the DEST.
Q He also testified that prior to the time he went to that office he worked in the Klinker Works?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q He testified further that while working in the office that he sent a number of reports and communications to the defendants Hohberg and the defendant Volk. Do you know anything about that?
A That is impossible. There must be some sort of a misunderstanding. I can recall that Kruse later on was sent to Oranienburg where he worked in the office there as a clerk and I believe that there he could possibly have gained some sort of a knowledge about it, but there must be a mistake on the part of Kruse.
Q He did say that he went to Oranienburg from Neuengamme.
A Yes, that is quite possible, as he was working in the auditing department there in Oranienburg with Herr Fischer. I believe when the Oberscharfuehrer or Unterscharfuehrer Fischer visited me in Neuengamme on one occasion in order to check our balance, which I had to keep as an inmate, we spoke about him, and I believe I can recall that he told me about Kruse's case. Kruse, after Neuengamme, was in the office of the administration in Oranienburg.
Q How did it happen that you got in the office and had a relatively easier job than the other inmates?
A When I entered the concentration camp I was not directly assigned to the office. That was a process of crystalization. The new arrivals in the concentration camp were first given the worst jobs there were. That also happened to me in 1938 at least. Then based on his knowledge, his capabilities, the inmate could advance a little bit. Possibly a shoemaker, a carpenter or a tailor was sent to the workshops, and he could get out of these outside details which was very much to his advantage. Now, if an inmate was needed for office work, he was found either on the basis of the files or he was called out during roll call.
I was in Sachsenhausen first, and I worked there in a dehydration plant. When I came to Neuengamme I was used as an auxiliary painter because an auxiliary painter was needed. Then a little while after that clerks were being sought, as the term was, clerks. That is the way the SS camp administration called them. They applied for three of them. That is how I got the job in the office. Of course, I did not want to work badly because then I knew I would be relieved and die, and I always endeavored to work well in my office and possibly be able to cling to my work.
That was the only possibility which we inmates had to keep aline, to satisfy our desire of self-preservation. We didn't want to die.
Q Did you get better food and better sleeping accommodations as an office worker or as head of an office as far as bookkeeping was concerned than you did when you were a manual worker?
A No, I didn't. Regardless of where the inmate was working, there was no difference made between the billeting and the supply and food, with the exception of one thing which Kahn got for us through Mummenthey, namely that the fourteen more important inmates of the Klinker Works towards the end of 1943 were taken out of camp and transferred to the factory. They succeeded in having a small guard unit of the SS guard us there, and we received a small room there where we could spend the night. That had become necessary because, for instance, the machines were working day and night, and they had to be observed day and night. This work could only be done by inmates, and that technical equipment there had to be under observance all the time. Sometimes I worked twothirds of my time until ten and eleven o'clock in the evening, and it was therefore necessary to remain in that plant. We had fourteen men. We had the foreman of the machine, the capo of the machines, also a Pole, a technician, a Czech and myself. There were all sorts of nationalities there, and all sorts of age groups, and we all had the advantage that although we were still guarded by the SS just as we were in the camp area, now we could at least sleep in the plant. We had those inmates who had been there for quite a while and who had connections and who knew how to get things, and they were used to the camp life. They had the opportunity and the possibility to get this and that occasionally. If we couldn't do that we simply tried to take something in order to help some other inmate. There were always people who would exploit such a situation.
For instance, on one occasion I embezzled a typewriter for bread and margarine. I hope this won't be held against me now Then we had three comrades in the office. I and three comrades in the office had as much as we wanted. I do hope you don't hold it against me though. Anyway, that is the only way we could keep alive. In Germany you call that to "organize" things. Whoever couldn't do that died.
Q Did you suffer from malnutrition?
A Not in the last years. During the first few years in the concentration camp I did suffer from undernourishment. But then again I recuperated and finally succeeded in getting food once in a while through our connections with the SS kitchen and the SS vegetable garden. As far as that goes, the type of work was such that due to the small amount of physical work we were doing there, the loss of energy on the part of the body was rather small. That was a type of job where we could sit, and such a job is always much more satisfactory than standing around all day long for the small amount of food we could get, particularly due to the bad weather conditions which prevailed in Neuengamme which is quite near the sea.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, will you tell us in order the camps that you were in and the dates?
THE WITNESS: You mean the camps where I was, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, begin with the first one.
THE WITNESS: I came from my Gestapo prison first in 1937 to the concentration camp Esterwegen. Early in 1939 I was sent to the concentration camp Sachsenhausen, and towards the middle of 1940 I was sent to the concentration camp Neuengamme. Prior to that I was in several institution. I was also in the Gestapo jail in Berlin, Prinz-Albrechtstrasse, and Berlin Columbia haus.
THE PRESIDENT: Examination by defense counsel.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q Witness, when were you arrested for the first time?
A In September, 1935. From that day on I was under arrest until February, 1945, and I was finally liberated on the 3rd of May, 1945.
Q Witness, what did you know about the concentration camps from 1933 up to the time when you were arrested?
A I only knew what I read about them in a book in Zurich in 1934. The name of the book was "The Hell Hear the Border of Woods in Esterwegen." That was the camp where I finally ended up myself.
Q Would you have had a possibility to know anything about the concentration camps without your having been abroad, in Zurich and Switzerland that is?
A Probably yes, at least after 1935, it would have been possible since from our point of view, that is from the point of view of the concentration camp inmates, we believe that actually, if the German people had wanted to, they could have kept their eyes somewhat open. They would have been able to see. They must have seen. The story I always have to listen to now is: "I didn't know anything and I didn't see anything." That is absolutely untrue. One could only say that the German people did not want to see anything, and they thought it much more simple to keep their eyes shut. If I think it much simpler to keep my eyes shut, then I shut my eyes. Then I simply can't see. They claim they couldn't see. Naturally, because they had their eyes closed.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Don't you think they kept their eyes and ears shut because of fear?
A No, definitely not. Out of fear you wouldn't have to close your eyes in order not to see. I can keep my mouth shut after I have seen something because I am afraid, but at the moment when I close my eyes I still don't know what I am closing my eyes for, but the moment I know that I am shutting my eyes because of something that might scare me, I already saw.
Then I can't say I didn't see anything.
Q Well, perhaps I was too figurative. They didn't read newspapers and they didn't listen to the radio. That is what I mean by closing their eyes and ears. Do you think they did that because they were afraid?
A You mean that the people did that because they were afraid?
Q Because they were afraid.
A The concentration camps were so numerous in Germany, near every larger city there was a concentration camp, and again and again there were connections between the inmates and the population. You had on onhand the connection between inmates in camps and the population on the other side, and everyone could notice those things who did want to notice them. In Oranienburg there were tens of thousands of inmates. Nearby you had Berlin. In Neuengamme you had 10,000. Hamburg is right near there. Everyone of them must have seen something at sometime. Whoever saw it must have passed the story on. Then in every civilized state of the world, with the exception of Germany, of course, there would have been a disturbance, which would not have been occasioned by the heart of human beings, but rather it would have been a disturbance due to the feelings of humanity in every human being, and due to this disturbance of the human feelings on the part of a human being it would have been their duty to see what was to be seen. But it was much simpler not to see, and the "blessings" of the Third Reich could be enjoyed much better by the German people while they had their eyes shut. It was much simpler in the evening to go to the KDF meeting without having seen anything. It was much better to wear one's decorations and the uniform while not seeing anything. However, it still should have been their duty to see what was going on.
Q Witness, did one go to Sachsenhausen, for instance, and walk through the gate of the concentration camp and visit it?
A One of the most important prerequisites was that every connection was interrupted between the inmate and his family.
Q In order to come back to your description, witness, how was it that a person could possibly find out what was going on behind the walls of Sachsenhausen if one could not enter, particularly since you didn't have my connections with your family?
A Let me give you two examples, from a group of many. In May, 1940 the death figure in Sachsenhausen was more than the crematorium could possibly take care of. Thereupon an auxiliary crematorium was used in a nearby city. I think it was Fuerstenwalde. The boxes with the dead, black, rough boxes, were loaded on hired trucks, and such a truck with the trailer full of dead inmates turned over. It took quite a while to block off that road. In the meantime, people saw it. That should have acted like an atomic bomb on the feelings of the German people because they had seen this. And with the same zeal that Hitler's victories was putting spirit in the hearts of Hitler's followers, this should have gone to the hearts of the German people. Let me give you another example. When we came from Sachsenhausen to Neuengamme, we had to get out at the railroad station of Neuengamme and walk through the village there for a whole hour. Everyone of the people saw it. From Neuengamme we had to take care of some canal there by the name of Dove-Elbe. That place of work was approximately one hour and 15 minutes to one hour and 30 minutes from our camp. We had to walk that distance. In their desperation some of our comrades would commit suicide rather than go to work. Sometimes you could find 3 or 4 inmates on the road from the concentration camp to the working place. These inmates had broken through the line, or had fallen out, or had broken through the chain of guards, and these guards shot them. They committed suicide this way. All those things were seen by the population there.
That was in the morning, but they also saw our return when we came back from our place of work. I don't see how such a return march could possibly pass unobserved in other countries such as France or in Sweden without speaking, of course, of a highly democratic country like America. A long column of one thousand inmates is jogging along the road. All men are tired. At the end of the column we have 30 or 40 push carts. We have one inmate at each push cart. The head of the dead inmate is banging against the wheel of the push cart. The SS-men shoot, the SS-men let those bloodhounds loose on the half-dying inmates in order to kill them; four or five men are tied together with another inmate who is about half-dead. Nothing but a long mournful column, day for day, and hour for hour. Half on the left and right side of them, were the German people of culture, namely, the Nation of Goethe. Now some German comes along, or someone else, and tells me that this one single picture would not have been enough to react like an atomic bomb on the feelings of the German people. It should have been an atomic bomb in the feelings of their hearts. But it is much simpler not to see anything. It was much more clever not to say anything. It was too easy not to see anything.
Q Witness, with regard to the conclusions which you reached about such a long column of human beings, and the people dying left and right, for instance, when you described the truck which tipped over, and you say this should have acted like an atomic bomb on the feelings of the German people. I would like to discuss three more things with you: First of all, you said that in Germany every large city had its concentration camp. I don't believe that was the case at any time, but if so, it must have been later on, that is, during the last few months. Shall we say from 1943 to 1945 and after that?
A Yes, you are quite right. The concentration camps were not very numerous from 1933 on, but we could really say '41 that was the start ing point when on the average there was no German, except, of course, if he was in a lunatic asylum, who did not know anything about the existence and character of the concentration camps.
I was a person who was amongst the inmates and I can really tell you about it. And with the exception of those few who were sympathetic for humanitarian reasons, the mass of the German population found it too nice and agreeable to follow their great Fuehrer by looking upon us inmates as dirt on the road.
Q Witness, here again I want to come back to the facts. You described your story in 1940 when a truck turned over full of the dead inmates. Where was that?
A That was in a village on the road between the concentration camp Sachsenhausen and the crematorium. I don't remember very well whether it was Fuerstenwalde or something similar. That was the place where the concentration camp Ravensbrueck was.
Q Not in Berlin?
A No, not in Berlin.
Q Don't you think, witness, that apart from this one exception, do you think if a truck turned over in Berlin in the middle of a large road, some thoroughfare, don't you think it would have taken the radio and newspapers to make such an occurrence known all over Germany?
A No, that is absolutely out of the question. Within a few days we knew in Neuengamme what was going on in Mauthausen. The rumors had begun. This great man Goebbels proved that there was also rumor propaganda which was coming from our side. At least it would have been successful. It is surprising that it can't be explained very well, how quickly news which might be of decisive importance can be passed on by mouth to mouth and locality to locality. I only gave you one example before, but I could extend that example and give you dozens of them. But I am not doing this here in order to make reproaches. The only thing is that we have to explain this phenomenon known as the SS.
As I said this morning without the attitude of the German people to help the SS by subordinating themselves to the SS, nothing would have happened.
Q Witness, you stated that you also had a rumor propaganda and that you could have started one. It is to be assumed, isn't it, witness, that you did that?
A Yes, of course, we did that.
Q Don't you think that this propaganda was stopped for the very simple reason that due to the fact that the rumors which you passed on also came back to you, isn't that a fact?
A It takes some courage to carry on a rumor, propaganda, you see, Mr. Defense Counsel, and that was the thing that the German people were lacking. There was a lack of courage. This little bit of courage which was necessary was replaced by the German people by just taking things easy.
Q Witness, I am not fighting your statements. I just can't follow your line of thoughts about your statement that according to what you told us, every German should know about the things going on in the concentration camps. Isn't that a subjective idea that you have from the inside of the concentration camp? Don't you think it is, witness?
A I never did say, and I am controlling myself very much to say that the Germans were supposed to know everything, but I state, and I am asserting that, and I am under the influence of objectivity. I believe that within every German life, that is between 1936 and 1945, there was at least one little thing that was heard. This little thing should have started a fire of holy will power, and that feeling should be found out there today (pointing toward the street).
Q Witness, in your testimony you stated that while you were working in Neuengamme you saw a certain amount of servility in the letters which were being sent to your plant. Do you want to say that in general?
Did you ever speak about this with some workers, or does your statement only limit itself to the directors and business managers.
This knowledge on which I have based my assertion came from the contact with all circles concerned. By that I mean workers, farmers, craftsmen up to the economic leaders of the governmental chiefs, and other chiefs. The man who was in charge of a large city, like Hamburg. I never did want to hold anything against these people. All I can do is give one explanation. I believe I can help this Tribunal much more by giving you an explanation rather than giving you my opinion -- which comes from a subjective attitude.
The situation was the people in the group of defendants who are sitting here could not possibly notice it in their uniforms. To use one term, they only had an imaginary power in their uniforms. That is the only way they actually gained power. If I imagined some power I have and think about it all the time, then I am powerful. I will go beyond my power and be very powerful. That is incriminating for the people, and you have to extent that guilt. The basis of guilt has to be extended.
Now, you have a paymaster who works on a ship, who was a good officer. If you put him in charge of a large, mammoth-sized economic enterprise, then it is clear that he does not know how to handle it. After all, it must have taken a movement from below which only gave power to the term SS. In all those circles they immediately quit resisting, and they couldn't see any further.
Q Witness-
THE PRESIDENT: Start over again Dr. Hoffmann. Start again.
BY DR. HOFFMANN (Counsel for defendant Scheide):
Q Witness, I would like to ask you two more reasons now which I want you to check on, and tell me if that is your opinion about those points and if not, please change it. There were soldiers who, already in 1939 had been conscripted into the Wehrmacht and who were fighting on the front lines. There were some soldiers who received leave once in a while.
How do you think that they found out about what was going on in the concentration camps?
A We had also Wehrmacht members when we used guards in the concentration camps. We had Air Forces men, naval men, and infantry men. I already explained this morning how this spirit worked on these SS people the moment they passed the barbed wire fences. That applied to the Wehrmacht members also. They were not better and they were not any worse.
Q Witness, the German Wehrmacht had approximately ten million members. I don't know if that figure is correct. Now, if five or six thousand of them--which is just a small number which I just took out-were also used as guards in the concentration camps, and then had knowledge, how do you think that these five or six thousand could inform all the other ten millions about the whole thing. That couldn't possibly get through, do you think, witness?
A For us there was no reason to examine and to weight between the two as to how much the Wehrmacht knew about it, about the treatment which we suffered, and if it agreed with the treatment which we were receiving. All we knew was that the Wehrmacht agreed with the madmen in Berlin. We knew that the Wehrmacht was doing everything even dying themselves, in order to be able to support the powers in Berlin. But we also knew that the Wehrmacht was sending men from its own rank into the concentration camps. If they only had done anything against the National Socialist character of the Wehrmacht. It was already in '38 or '39 that I met quite a few comrades of the Special Department "Wehrmacht". We called it "SAW", amongst ourselves. I saw some of these boys die; I saw them suffer and die. Those were the people who were went to the camp.
Q Witness, you further testified that it was much easier to participate in KDF programs than to show humanitarian feelings, I mean it was simpler, wasn't it?
As far as I gained knowledge of all those things in these traisl, the concentration camps became horrible from '40 to '41 to '42. Don't you think that a part of the German population already had its own troubles and its own worries so that quite a few things didn't penetrate as far as they were as it would have before? Don't you think so?
A I don't believe that the Germans had such a lot of trouble. I didn't see their trouble. I only heard about it from the papers and when we sometimes listened to the radio--we listened to it once in a while. All we heard was the number of pleasures they had, the number of joys which the German people had in the early days of the war. And we found out that only one thousandth of one thousandth of all this pleasure and joy was turned toward us. If they had been able to do that we would have been able to save many, many who died.
Mr. Defense Counsel, I hope that maybe you don't think that I am acting too subjectively, but, after all, the wound is too deep and it is still fresh; it has been only two a half years. I don't know if you should ask me any further questions in this field, Mr. Defense Counsel, but we have our own opinion. I came here with the real will to be as objective as possible, and I know that there is one man sitting in the defendants' dock who, as seen from my small point of view, is excepted from the entire hate which we have for all these men. He is the "white sheep".
Don't forget that if the Allies wouldn't have taken over the question of the SS and the concentration camps, and if they would have left it to us, then there would have been no trial; and, with the exception of this one defendant who is the white sheep here, Mummenthey, none of the defendants would be alive today... If the allies wouldn't have been here, then I am sure that our subjective hate would have taken care of all those people in a summary manner.