In this way they were to make the soil more solid on the square and on the road. When they were doing this work SS men of the concentration camp would drive them on to work with whips. The inmates who worked on Roller I were the Jews who were situated within the camp. This particular camp commander was especially hostile toward the Jews, and whenever he had not succeeded in killing all the Jews he would put the remainder into that punitive detachment. In Roller II all the inmates were put who had to wear a red point on their uniform because on an earlier occasion they had tried to escape. In Roller III only inmates were located who had been guilty of some small disciplinary violations. When the work of hardening the soil of the road and the square had been completed the commander had to find a new work for the punitive detachment.
He ordered them to dig a very big cellar, and here water constantly accumulated because the Elbe River was situated nearby, and there was a lot of water in the soil. At that time I was also in the punitive company for several days, and I saw that the inmates had to get into the water which went up to their chests, and they had to put the water into buckets and empty the pit. This work was not important at all. There was no use to it. That is how the inmates were kept busy with chicanery, and the purpose of all this was to torture the inmates in the punitive company and to kill them as a result of this torture.
The death rate was correspondingly high. The SS noncommissioned offices, mostly there were two or three of them who were in charge of this punitive detachment, and who were exclusively and directly subordinated to the concentration-camp commander, were always by selection extremely brutal.
Most of them were very young fellows, and since they were unable to prove that they were heroes at the front, they consequently tried to become heroes by torturing the defenseless inmates. They also competed with each other in discovering new methods of torture and killing the inmates in the punitive detachments. Let me give you an example.
When I was in this punitive detachment there was also a Catholic priest there of a high standing. He was only in the concentration camp because he had preached against Hitler from his pulpit. That is why he was sent to the concentration camp, and at the same time he was assigned to the punitive detachment. This inmate was about to die and he was lying in a coma next to our place of work. One of these block leaders had discovered an especially funny method of torture. He would urinate into the mouth of the man who was just about to die and then he would complete his joke by saying, "Well, my priest, now you have received the last salvation." Yes, the SS could be funny on occasions, but only according to its nature.
This punitive detachment, after the death of Heydrich, was entrusted with work after 1942 which had some sort of sense at least. The commander was afraid that he would be reproached if it was ever noticed that he only used the inmates in the punitive detachment in order to torture them. Of course, now he was looking for the heaviest work for them.
Part of the Klinker works was a so-called clay pit. It was located in the area around the Klinder works, and here the clay was removed, from the soil. This was done in such a way that the soft, fertile part of the soil was removed, and then inmates had to dig up the clay with a spade. They had to load it up on wagons, and then these little wagons were pulled away be engines which were operated by other inmates to the clay-processing plant.
Digging up clay is, of course, very heavy work. In areas where a lot of clay can be found and where the clay layer is deep enough, this work is usually done by dredging machines which remove the clay. In Neuengamme this was a technical problem which could not be solved. Consequently, the clay had to be removed by inmates. Up to that time the work had been carried out by inmates of the Klinker Works from approximately 1943 on. The commander who had the necessary authority since he was also the plant manager assigned the punitive company in order to remove this clay.
As I have already stated, this work was extremely difficult. However, the condition of the inmates in the punitive detachment now was considerably improved as a result of the fact they had some useful work to do at last. Up to that time they had been subject to the brutality of the SS, who had nothing better to do than to find new ways of torturing them.
Now, at last, even if they had to do heavy work, they could keep busy.
The death rate in the punitive detachment now decreased rapidly. That was not the fault nor the merit of the commander, but conditions now caused the death rate to be lower and the commander must have felt pretty sorry about that. However, from that time on, he had to take care of the inmates and now he could not go on killing the inmates any more as he had done before.
The punitive company had nothing whatsoever to do with the Klinker Works. The punitive detachment was not counted as being part of the number of workers who were furnished to the Klinker Works by the concentration camp. The punitive detachment had to go out to work in a special formation and it returned in a special formation. It could not have any contact whatsoever with the inmates who were working at the Klinker Works. There also was a special man in charge of the detachment. His name was Frahm. This man has been hanged in the meantime.
Q Did the business manager Kahn or the plant manager Kahn point out these monstrous conditions to the plant commander and what action was taken?
A The plant manager Kahn did not like the idea that within sight of the plant this punitive detachment was assigned to work by the commander. I would like to say that in his foresight he even recognized the difficulties which might have arisen for the plant if the tendency of the punitive detachment had remained as it was before. It would have had a depressing effect on the inmates and, therefore, the efficiency and the will to work of the other inmates might have been affected. However, the camp commander gave the competent orders there and nobody could change them.
The plant manager tried to get some advantages for the inmates of the punitive detachment. That was done upon the suggestion of the other inmates and on several occasions he succeeded in obtaining permission from the commander that chewing tobacco or fish were procured for these inmates. However, these were very rare cases and the commander did not like to let anybody interfere with regard to his punitive company.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I didn't catch the name of these categories. It sounded like "Rollers."
DR. FROESCHMANN: It's a roller, your Honor -- it's a steam roller.
Q Witness, from the draft which you handed over to me, I know that one particular case is significant for that. That is the incident about the procurement of fish. Can you tell us something about it?
A On one occasion -- I think it was in the summer or the fall of 1944 -- a large shipment of fish was distributed in the inmate mess. These fishes had arrived at Hamburg and could not be distributed to the interior of Germany because of transportation difficulties. For this reason, the food office turned over a wagon of fish to the camp. This fish was sold to the inmates for coupons. Since the inmates did not have enough coupons at the time, the plant purchased a large number of fish and these fishes were turned over to the inmates who worked in the plant. This happened on a Saturday. The fishes had to be consumed quickly and early on Sunday morning I turned over a large number of fishes to the in mates -- I think about 200 pounds.
At the expense of the plant I had these fishes taken to the works from the mess hall.
On Sunday, however, only about 40 people were actually working; so, by means of a little trick, I was able to turn over the remainder of the fish, about 150 pounds, to the inmates in the punitive company.
I asked Kahn to call the commander. I asked him to tell the commander that we had some fish left over here which would spoil otherwise. He was to ask the commander whether he would give the permission that the punitive company could receive these fishes.
First of all he didn't agree but when Kahn told the commander that they were already half spoiled anyway, the commander finally gave his approval. Of course, at that time the fishes were still in a good condition. Just by means of this little trick, the inmates of the punitive company were able to receive something extra from the plant.
Q Witness, if I have understood you correctly before, then you want to say that towards the outside it might appear as if this punitive detachment had been employed by the plant. According to your description, however, that is not correct.
A It is possible that an inmate who did not know the exact connections in this case could assume that the punitive detachment was part of the group of inmates who were employed by the plant. However, that is not correct. I want to emphasize that the punitive detachment of the commander belonged solely to the commander. This commander -his name was Pauli -- would not have turned over his punitive company to anybody else's authority.
Q Witness, the second point which interests me is the crematorium. Was the crematorium one of the secrets of the concentration camps or was it a secret that was known to everybody in general?
AActually, the concentration camp itself was secret, and the facilities like the crematorium were to be kept secret by all means. Towards the outside the concentration camp headquarters surrounded itself with a veil of secrecy and they told the public a beautiful tale about their generosity and their humaneness. In fact, however, there were nothing but murders and crimes committed in the concentration camps.
Nobody was allowed to talk about the crematorium and nobody was supposed to know anything about it. We had the absurd condition there that even SS people who did not enter the camp only heard from conversations with the inmates that these facilities actually existed.
Q Witness, I want to talk about one more point which deals with the punitive detachment. In the course of the trial, a witness by the name of Kruse has also made statements about the punitive detachment here and they could lead to the conclusion that the punitive detachment had worked for the plant. Do you know this man Kruse?
A I first have to search my memory. I believe in the office for several days we had an inmate by the name of Kruse. I think he came from Hamburg. He was about my size. He had dark hair, a dark complexion, and he was about 40 years old. If he is the man you are referring to, then I must say that he spent only a very short time in the Klinker Works. I knew him in the camp and because we had the same ideas I had frequent discussions with him. However, I don't think that this man Kruse was able to recognize the internal connections, particularly with regard to the punitive detachment. If he has given another description from what I have just stated in detail, then the reason for this may be that he was not so closely acquainted with the actual conditions.
Furthermore, he frequently heard from me about the development of the plant. We were usually not discussing the punitive company because this did not interest us too much. Therefore, if he has any knowledge about the connections in the DEST, then he can only have gained it from me at the time when both of us were inmates at Neuengamme.
Q Witness, you have such an extensive knowledge about the conditions which prevailed there that I would like to ask you a question about one person; that is the person of Schondorff. Does the name mean anything to you?
A Schondorff was the assistant business manager of the DEST and in a parallel position he was the deputy of his chief, the business manager of the DEST; the direction of office WI was divided into three parts.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Schonforf was the technical Director of the Department of Brick Works. His career shows that. He was a professor at a technical high sthool at Lippe or Lage, and, with his assistant, an architect by the name of Fuerth--I think his name was Roman Fuerth--he was appointed as technical director of the DEST in 1938 or 1939. He then rose in his position and then he received the insignia of an SS officer. Then, together with Mummenthey, and a man by the name of Schwarz, he occupied one of the three executive positions within the DEST. Schwarz was a Prokurist; Schondorf was the technical director; Mummenthey was the commercial manager, and, as commercial manager, he was the main business manager.
Schondorf came to Neuengamme very often. He was there more often than Mummenthey. If you want to hear my estimation of Schondorf, I think that he was a very dual person. He was an authority in the field of constructing modern brick works. He was also an expert in the field of obtaining extra fees for his work. I know several things which may not be publicly known. I have seen the contracts, and although Schondorf was a business manager and he received a salary as such, he still received extra pay for his drafts. I think that he cheated the SS treasury on several occasions.
When he made a draft about the brick works at Neuengamme he asked for a special fee, and this fee was approved. Actually, this fee, according to its amount, should have called for a completely new draft. In reality, however, the brick works at Neuengamme, had already existed in part before and they had been constructed actually for the Hermann Goering Works. Since Schondorf was a technical expert, he was frequently at Neuengamme when the operation of the plan began. He was not interested at all in matters pertaining to the inmates, and he did not have any attitude for or against the inmates. He used to walk around in the uniform of a Higher SS Officer and, as I have said before, he was the deputy of the second business manager next to Mummenthey. He only had contact with inmates if they were also technicians because the planning and the execution of the work was strictly in the hands of the inmates.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Witness, do you know that Schondorf had a special contract with the defendant Pohl? By virtue of this contract he also occupied a special position which put him into the foreground very strongly.
A Yes; Schondorf was extremely selfish. Without any doubt it was very difficult for his partners in the business to work with him. He only looked out for his own advantage, and to use a common expression-he was two-faced.
While Mummenthey still trusted him, he already had maintained a different attitude in some cases, and Schondorf even went so far that when he had discussions about various events or incidents or labor questions, where inmates were concerned, he would make certain remarks or would issue orders which--if someone looked into the matter carefully-were actually directed against Mummenthey. He had a special contract, which I have already described before, and I have already mentioned part of that with regard to the fee. Just what special authority he had, I don't know.
However, he did have special authorities, and he stated very often that he did not actually have to accept any orders from anybody.
Q Witness, in conclusion, as the Defense counsel of Mummenthey, I would like to fulfill the duty of asking you how you judge Mummenthey as a person, in his capacity as a business manager of the DEST, and in particular as the responsible manager in the DEST next to Schondorf, in the year 1941 with regard to the crimes which the Prosecution has charged against him, crimes against humanity?
A I don't know precisely just what Mummenthey has been indicted for. If a crime against humanity has been alleged, then on the basis of the knowledge which I have gained personally about Mummenthey--and I must emphasize here, that I must limit myself for the most part to Neuengamme and aside from orders which he issued--I have to reach the conclusion that Mummenthey would not commit any inhumane acts at all.
Mummenthey, like many SS people, was a victim of the belief that he had a certain power and authority and, in reality, because these people were completely disorganized and he actually was only part of a current Court No. II, Case No. 4.which drew him and his comrades along.
They did not suffer so much-but the inmates did. They were the victims of their own personalities. They were completely incapable of running and operating and organizing such economic enterprises and such economic concerns.
They were unable to develop this enterprise, and it was tragic that they believed that they were capable of doing so. We must not forget that this economic structure was one of the biggest concerns in Germany; but, in fact, it was not a concern at all because it did not have the structure of a concern. Here, just a number of enterprises were put together, and they did not even belong together as far as the work was concerned. These plants were not a natural structure at all. They were not established on the basis of economic necessity but they were established contrary to the natural requirements. This was the result of the mistaken concept of the State life, and that is why many of the inmates had to die and suffer torture.
We always used a very brief expression and we would say in very brief words, "No blessing is on these plants"; and actually there was no economic blessing on them either. You cannot single out Mummenthey and say, "Well, just what is Mummenthey?" In order to recognize Mummenthey, you must take a look at the entire organization.
Here we had an economic structure which was actually glued together. All these enterprises had been stolen or illegally obtained and, actually, these enterprises constituted a tremendous power. All this was directed by a former assistant paymaster. He believed that he was able to direct this economic enterprise-
Q Are you referring to Pohl now?
A Yes. After all, the whole organization was directed by Pohl who was formerly an assistant paymaster. He thought that he actually was steering the organization; however, in reality, he was unable to steer the whole thing. Below him there were dozens of SS officers who were fighting for the control -- concentration camp commanders and so on -- and they, in reality, were steering this economic boat. Thus they brought about the collapse, and that is why so many inmates had to die.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
However, we must also consider another point. When we raised the question: How could it happen that these people although they were not qualified to handle their jobs, because of lack of experience and so on, had obtained such an economic authority and such power over human beings?
Of course this raises a problem. Behind these defendants stood the German people; they are also indicted in all their actions. There should not be any exceptions whatsoever. After all, the power of the SS was not a power solely based on the SS. The concept of obedience which is so prevalent in Germany was based on the feelings of the German people. I have seen it from the literature, on the business correspondence, and all the small details of the economic life in this structure.
There I have seen how grateful the Germans were--and also very important persons in economic life: Ministerial directors, no matter what position they held, or finance consultants in big cities--when they could actually crawl on their stomachs before one of the defendants who wore the SS insignia. This feeling of individual Germans to obey existed. No matter what position they held, they wanted to be servile to the SS; they wanted to crawl before the SS and fawn before them. That is what gave these men the belief that they were big economic leaders.
After all, their efficiency was nil, as far as economic matters were concerned. Such a structure which has to fulfill so many difficult prerequisites, and the struggle against the concentration camp commanders, the struggle in order to maintain the efficiency of the inmates--such enterprises could not use any incapable persons as plant managers. They did not need people of average efficiency, but such enterprises required people who were extraordinarily capable of performing their work. I do not believe that the result of what we have seen entitles us to say that these people were capable enough in order to solve this large complex of problems. They were unable to master these problems; they could not solve these problems because they were not capable of doing their work. Therefore, they were unable to handle the work in the economic sector, and their failure has cost the lives of many people.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
It would have been necessary, since the SS was not well organized at all, since one person was struggling against the other, and since all SS officers were trying to centralize as much power as possible in their own hands, that a really capable person should have been able to use this economic sector in order to improve the structure of the SS. He could not have remedied the situation completely, but he could have seen to it that he could have constituted a blessing to the extent that many human beings could have been kept alive in the economic field.
In order to come back to Mummenthey-
THE PRESIDENT: We will start with Mummenthey at a quarter of two, please.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 1 August 1947) HELMUT BICKEL - Resumed Direct examination - continued
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Dr. Froeschmann, for the defendant Mummenthey.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, at the end of your testimony this morning, you told us certain facts which were of very great importance. You spoke about the collective guilt of the German people, to what extent they were really responsible and you said, that they were guilty for not having struggled against the people who were in power at the time in Germany because of their blind sense of obedience. You spoke of the collective guilt also in connection with these defendants. You did not speak of any legal collective guilt. You did not speak of a moral collective guilt, but, yet, you did speak of collective guilt to the effect that they in their positions considered themselves to be extremely important, yet they tried to master certain things which they could not master. I don't believe that I am wrong in understanding you to have said that this collective guilt of the defendants only constitutes part of the great collective guilt of the entire German people, isn't that true? In this connection I want you to answer my last question. How do you actually judge the actions of Mummenthey, his attitude, his ideas, his intentions, his measures, and his success and failure?
A. In summing up all I have said about Mummenthey up to now, perhaps, it would be best for me to give you the following single factor that applies to everything: Mummenthey was wearing the uniform of an SS-officer.
As far as his attitude towards the inmates is concerned, and that alone interests me, I can only say the following: Amongst the SS-officers he was a "White-sheep". That, Mr. Defense Counsel, is so clear already that you only need a few statements to clarify that point. He did not do us any harm; his actions as an office chief were not bad for us. He did not hit anybody directly, nor did he harm anybody indirectly through his orders. Actually, it is only natural that a person should not be a murderer, but for us it was something royal, something big, that there were still people in the SS who did not consider it one of their daily normal routine tasks to harrass people, to mistreat people, and to murder them. If you consider something natural as constituting a special privilege or even mercy, then you will see my point. Here we can offer one point in Mummenthey's favor. Perhaps, according to his character he was not quite fit to act as his SS-uniform prescribed him to act. He is a soft man. He is not a militarist. He is a good assessor. He is not a good economist. He is a sociologist according to his character, and perhaps as a hobby, he was not a good teacher. That is how you can explain Mummenthey's attitude and personality, as it expressed itself in his behavior towards the inmates. I have nothing further to say about him.
Q Witness, I have now reached the end of my direct examination, but I would like you to clarify one more point for us. When you spoke about the SS in your detailed statements, did you refer to the SS circles you were in contact with, that is to say the circles in the concentration camp and whatever goes along with it, or did you refer to the SS circles who were fighting in the front line as members of the Waffen SS and who sacrificed their lives for their Fatherland?
A Even these SS murderers who murdered my comrades and mistreated me also used the fulfillment of their duty as their basic motto. To what extent their duty in murdering and mistreating concentration camp inmates varied from what was done in the front line, I can't tell you. I can only compare the actions of the SS men who came to us from the front line and those SS men who had never been in the front line: all of them acted alike. The SS man who was assigned as a guard in a concentration camp or as officer of the guard in a concentration camp, the moment he entered that barbed wire fence simply became a member of a group of murderers. In order to give an example there was an SS-Obersturmfuehrer who had just returned from front line duty and he had a small terrier and while working one of the inmates, a Jew, while pushing his little push-cart, unintentionally, hit this little dog. The dog just gave a little yelp; that was all that happened. This SS man liked the dog so much, however, that for that reason, because the man had molested the little dog, he killed the inmate. That is how much he liked the animal and hated the human being. That was not his character. That was simply the outstanding position which he held and where he had power over the life and death of the inmates. For the SS men it was the sacred duty toward the Fuehrer - to kill an inmate as brutally as possible. I am differentiating here between the SS men who had power over us in the concentration camps and those in the economic enterprises. There was much difference. The SS men in the economic enterprises could not get behind the barbed wire because their field of work was so different.
Q Your Honor, I have no further questions to the witness.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Did you ever see any of the defendants in the dock visit Neuengamme besides the defendant Mummenthey?
A Yes.
Q Who?
A I saw Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
Q How many times did you see Pohl there?
A Several times. I described one occasion yesterday, towards the end of the summer of 1942. Then the second visit there in contrast to the first unannounced visit, was previously announced, namely when Pohl visited the camp and the commandant knew about it beforehand and the commandant prepared everything. The little Major -that was the commandant - gave the great General Pohl, a wonderful show-job. When the visit was announced everything was cleaned up and everything that did not look good was taken away so that he was able to point out to the Gruppenfuehrer: "This is my camp! Look how clean it is! I have everything in order." They had already removed the dead and those who were about to die. They were placed in a special wooden barracks on one of Pohl's visits. On another occasion the half-dead inmates were chased out into the fields. I don't know how many times I saw Pohl in Neuengamme - it may have been more than twice. I cannot recall it anymore precisely.
Q Whom else did you see there besides Pohl?
A I saw Oberfuehrer Baier. He simply dealt with questions of bookkeeping. He didn't inspect the concentration camp. He only stayed at the plant. It is quite possible that others of the defendants were there and that I saw them. I know quite a few of them by their faces but I couldn't identify them now. There is a difference in their clothes, because then they wore their beautiful sparkling uniforms.
Q The witness Kruse testified that you had some recollection of... testified that he was in Neuengamme from 1942 and for some considerable time after that and that in January 1943 the death rate was so high that 1,200 inmates died in the month of January. What do you say as to that?
A In January of what year, Your Honor?
Q 43.
A I don't remember the exact death rate in 1943. The death rate curve varied considerably. Sometimes these people died due to epidemics, sometimes because the camp was overcrowded. In any case you can figure out the death rate in percentages. Apart from this a great number of people died in the last weeks because conditions became worse all of a sudden. In 1940 we had the largest death rate and then between 1941 to 1942 during the quarantine period, in the month of December of 41 and January and February of 1942 the death rate was highest. I would assume that between 43 and 44 there were certain reasons for the death rate not being so high.
Q You testified that during the years 1942 and 1943 that the average death rate was from 8 to 20% per month according to the weather conditions.
A Neuengamme, from the time of its establishment, until it was dissolved had a total of 38,000 dead in five years, that amounts to approximately 8,000 dead a year. Now, if you take the average strength of the camp at 10,000 it would be 80% a year dead, divided by 12, this would be 6½ to 7%.
Q Per month?
A Yes, per month.
Q The witness further testified that he worked under Mummenthey as chief of Office W-I for a period of 4 months in the office. Do you know anything about that?
A That he had worked under Mummenthey in Neuengamme is absolutely impossible.
Mummenthey was in Berlin all the time. Inmates were also employed in Mummenthey's office in Berlin.
Q Not in the office at Berlin as I understood it but in the office at Neuengamme under Mummenthey.
A What is the witness' name?
Q Kruse.
A Kruse did work in my office for a short while at a time when Mummenthey -- I can remember Kruse very well now, I believe in 1941 or 1943 for a short period of time Kruse worked in my office and he had to do statistical work from the individual processes of manufacture. He was a man of medium build. He was a good comrade and then he became sick. Immediately after he became sick he was sent to outside details. While working I don't believe he could have gained any knowledge of internal matters. I was very careful when I spoke to my comrades although I did inform them of the structure of the DEST. It is not correct that he was in Neuengamme three of four months and worked there in the office, at least while Mummenthey was chief in Berlin. It is possible that before he came to my office he worked in the Klinker Works on something entirely different, possibly doing manual work, or auxiliary work or something else. In any case from that type of work he was doing he couldn't have gained any knowledge about the DEST.
Q He also testified that prior to the time he went to that office he worked in the Klinker Works?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q He testified further that while working in the office that he sent a number of reports and communications to the defendants Hohberg and the defendant Volk. Do you know anything about that?
A That is impossible. There must be some sort of a misunderstanding. I can recall that Kruse later on was sent to Oranienburg where he worked in the office there as a clerk and I believe that there he could possibly have gained some sort of a knowledge about it, but there must be a mistake on the part of Kruse.
Q He did say that he went to Oranienburg from Neuengamme.
A Yes, that is quite possible, as he was working in the auditing department there in Oranienburg with Herr Fischer. I believe when the Oberscharfuehrer or Unterscharfuehrer Fischer visited me in Neuengamme on one occasion in order to check our balance, which I had to keep as an inmate, we spoke about him, and I believe I can recall that he told me about Kruse's case. Kruse, after Neuengamme, was in the office of the administration in Oranienburg.
Q How did it happen that you got in the office and had a relatively easier job than the other inmates?
A When I entered the concentration camp I was not directly assigned to the office. That was a process of crystalization. The new arrivals in the concentration camp were first given the worst jobs there were. That also happened to me in 1938 at least. Then based on his knowledge, his capabilities, the inmate could advance a little bit. Possibly a shoemaker, a carpenter or a tailor was sent to the workshops, and he could get out of these outside details which was very much to his advantage. Now, if an inmate was needed for office work, he was found either on the basis of the files or he was called out during roll call.
I was in Sachsenhausen first, and I worked there in a dehydration plant. When I came to Neuengamme I was used as an auxiliary painter because an auxiliary painter was needed. Then a little while after that clerks were being sought, as the term was, clerks. That is the way the SS camp administration called them. They applied for three of them. That is how I got the job in the office. Of course, I did not want to work badly because then I knew I would be relieved and die, and I always endeavored to work well in my office and possibly be able to cling to my work.
That was the only possibility which we inmates had to keep aline, to satisfy our desire of self-preservation. We didn't want to die.
Q Did you get better food and better sleeping accommodations as an office worker or as head of an office as far as bookkeeping was concerned than you did when you were a manual worker?
A No, I didn't. Regardless of where the inmate was working, there was no difference made between the billeting and the supply and food, with the exception of one thing which Kahn got for us through Mummenthey, namely that the fourteen more important inmates of the Klinker Works towards the end of 1943 were taken out of camp and transferred to the factory. They succeeded in having a small guard unit of the SS guard us there, and we received a small room there where we could spend the night. That had become necessary because, for instance, the machines were working day and night, and they had to be observed day and night. This work could only be done by inmates, and that technical equipment there had to be under observance all the time. Sometimes I worked twothirds of my time until ten and eleven o'clock in the evening, and it was therefore necessary to remain in that plant. We had fourteen men. We had the foreman of the machine, the capo of the machines, also a Pole, a technician, a Czech and myself. There were all sorts of nationalities there, and all sorts of age groups, and we all had the advantage that although we were still guarded by the SS just as we were in the camp area, now we could at least sleep in the plant. We had those inmates who had been there for quite a while and who had connections and who knew how to get things, and they were used to the camp life. They had the opportunity and the possibility to get this and that occasionally. If we couldn't do that we simply tried to take something in order to help some other inmate. There were always people who would exploit such a situation.
For instance, on one occasion I embezzled a typewriter for bread and margarine. I hope this won't be held against me now Then we had three comrades in the office. I and three comrades in the office had as much as we wanted. I do hope you don't hold it against me though. Anyway, that is the only way we could keep alive. In Germany you call that to "organize" things. Whoever couldn't do that died.
Q Did you suffer from malnutrition?
A Not in the last years. During the first few years in the concentration camp I did suffer from undernourishment. But then again I recuperated and finally succeeded in getting food once in a while through our connections with the SS kitchen and the SS vegetable garden. As far as that goes, the type of work was such that due to the small amount of physical work we were doing there, the loss of energy on the part of the body was rather small. That was a type of job where we could sit, and such a job is always much more satisfactory than standing around all day long for the small amount of food we could get, particularly due to the bad weather conditions which prevailed in Neuengamme which is quite near the sea.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, will you tell us in order the camps that you were in and the dates?
THE WITNESS: You mean the camps where I was, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, begin with the first one.
THE WITNESS: I came from my Gestapo prison first in 1937 to the concentration camp Esterwegen. Early in 1939 I was sent to the concentration camp Sachsenhausen, and towards the middle of 1940 I was sent to the concentration camp Neuengamme. Prior to that I was in several institution. I was also in the Gestapo jail in Berlin, Prinz-Albrechtstrasse, and Berlin Columbia haus.
THE PRESIDENT: Examination by defense counsel.
BY DR. HOFFMANN: