But he also told me the following - let me stop and think for a minute - that he in his new working place near Mauthausen, although he had the position of a construction manager, had to struggle and fight with the enmity and animosity of the SS officers. He also told me, "I believe that I will soon have to wear the same clothes you wear. The commander of the concentration camps by the name of Ziereiss is after me." Actually, one or two years later he was again arrested and placed in a camp.
Mummenthey furthermore got other inmates out of other camps, I myself was the second case. Since 1944, my release, and at the same time my employment as a civilian employee was worked on. It took one year from the moment of the application. The resistance offered by Berlin was rather strong. This shows that the power of the SSWVHA within the framework of the entire SS structure was not very strong. If the power would really have been as strong as they actually thought it was, then all it would have needed would have been a letter; in order to get out an inmate; namely as in my case, for instance, a bookkeeper and the other case of Fischer who was an architect. They thought they had the power but they didn't have it.
Perhaps, it was of importance for Mummenthey to be able to seek power himself and to imagine that he was strong, both for himself and for his subordinates, saying that he actually succeeded in doing something by releasing a few inmates from the concentration camp. For us inmates, there was nothing else, no better aim or better luck than to be released from a concentration camp.
On the 5th of February 1945 - that is a few days before the liberation by the Allies - my release had been granted me. I had already been dressed up in the morning and I had to wait until six o'clock in the evening whereupon the commander said "Bickel is not going to be released. I am not going to release him." He was stronger. Although the order had come from Berlin to have me released, although my papers were ready, although I was ready, dressed up and everything -I had received my wedding ring again, had received my clothes again and had signed for them -- the commander at six o'clock in the evening said, "Go back to the camp.
Change into your clothes again. You are an inmate."
The commander had found out that Mummenthey had done that and he wanted to prove he was the stronger. He was nothing but a beast. That is the reason why I again became an inmate. It was depressing. I got again into my inmate's garb, went back. Kahn called Mummenthey up - the same evening, I believe. As I learned from Kahn, Mummenthey went again to see Pohl.
Now there was another question, a question of competencies. That was my only hope. Pohl understood the whole idea in the struggle between the competencies and Gluecks decided I would be released to go and work there. The main argument of the commander was: "Bickel will keep his old desk, his old chair and his old activity. He is no longer an inmate. Only he is going to be paid now. That isn't necessary. As an inmate can do the same thing."
Now the order came on the 8th of February and yet the commander showed me that he was still the stronger man. My order for release was effective the 8th of February but he only let me out of the camp on the 10th of February 1945. That was a few days before the liberation by the Allies. On the 8th of February he had me report, this time before his door; I had to wait in front of his door for two days until he finally agreed in letting me go - that is to say, until he finally agreed to give me the last threats, last advice which was: "Now, if you come back again I am personally going to hang you"; and I am quite sure he would have done it, too, whereupon I told him, "Mr. Commander, if a man is about ready to drown and he is saved by going on a ship he will see to it that this ship does not throw him back into the water." That is all he said and that is all I said and I was again.
Then, of course, I had to live within the Klinker Area. I was not permitted to leave Neuengamme. I couldn't use a radio and I couldn't contact any Jews because that was the argument used against me; but that case was rather symptomatic of the struggle between concentration camps and administration and the economic administration of the DEST.
There were also other releases which had been granted by Mummenthey at, I believe, Mauthausen and, as far as I know, complaints were made to Mummenthey on one occasion that those inmates who had been released by him had again committed offenses. But if he continued helping those inmates by letting them out, perhaps there was the reason to still do something against the people in the concentration camp, but I am sure there was a human interest behind it, a commercial interest, because this labor of the inmates, which was not being paid for, was cheaper than a former inmate, the civilian, who was being paid very well.
Q Witness, two more concluding questions with reference to this question: do you know, in the case of Fischer who was mentioned by you before, that Mummenthey personally had difficulties himself because he had succeeded in having Fischer released from the concentration camp and transferred him to civilian work and the plant which was mentioned before?
A Yes, I was told that when I spoke with the works manager Kahn due to the delay in my release.
Q The second question is: is it correct that, particularly in your case, Mummenthey actually was very persistent in your release, and, by the fact that you were released, which Mummenthey actually initiated, you today are possibly lucky to be still alive and, if so, what was the reason for it?
A It is correct that Mummenthey actually had to be very persist ent to have me released from the commander.
I have already mentioned that in great detail. It may also be correct that I owe part of my life, or the greatest part of my life, to Mummenthey due to this release. The reason being that a few days prior to the capitulation Neuengamme was evacuated. The German inmates were placed before the alternative, so far as they were strong enough, to sign up in the SS, or to be evacuated or deported. Of course, if I had still been an inmate, I would have rather been shot than sign up and join the SS because, after I had suffered so many years by the SS, I could not possibly use a bazooka and work together with the SS. If I hadn't done that, I would have been sent to the ship "Cap Arcona" together with the other 7,000 inmates who were still alive.
This ship "Cap Arcona" on the 3rd or 4th of May 1945 was sunk in the Bay of Luebeck. Of the 7,000 men only 500 men could save their lives, a percentage of 7½, a chance of 100 to 7. That difference of 93 to 7 I really owe to Mummenthey.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, would you make a recess now and then we would discuss the sinking after the recess?
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FICHT FOR THE DEFENDANT KLEIN: Your Honors, I request that the defendant Klein be excused from this afternoon's session in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The motion is granted. He may be absent from the afternoon session.
MR. McHANEY: Your Honors, during the morning recess I have had the opportunity of looking into the status of Dr. Winkler who has been requested as a witness by Dr. Gawlik. It appears that the witness is a prospective defendant in a case being prepared by another division. Consequently, that division has not had a representative present and does not intend to have one present. However, I think that the right of the other division to have someone present during interrogations of a prospective defendant should be preserved and we so request.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honors, however my right should not be taken away from me to talk to the witness without a representative of the Prosecution being present because the Prosecution will have a chance this way to be prepared for cross examination before I examine the witness and this witness in the case of Dr. Bobermin can be questioned on the seizure of the brick works. That is no reason why Winkler should be accused. I only want to discuss the seizure of the brick works with the witness, whether the brick works were disappropriated. I would be agreeable that a representative of the Tribunal should be there but I object to the fact that a representative of the Prosecution should be present.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is well aware of the fact that the presence of a representative of the Prosecution has a very serious effect on the interrogation and that the witness if very much inclined to refuse to talk to the defense counsel with the Prosecution representative there.
On the other hand the Tribunal assumes that all the defense counsel wishes is a chance to get the true facts and that no questions will be asked or no statements made which would interfere with getting the truth from the witness. In order to meet both of these difficulties leave will be granted to interview the prospective witness without the presence of a representative of the Prosecution but in the presence of a member of this Tribunal, and Judge Speight, the alternate Judge, will serve in that capacity. You may make arrangements for the interview and notify Judge Speight of the time and plane and then you may interview the witness without a member of the Prosecution Staff being present.
Is that satisfactory Mr. McHaney?
MR. MC HANEY: Yes, entirely, Your Honor. It might be more convenient for all concerned if they had perhaps remember of the Secretary General's office who speaks German substitute for Judge Speight. However, that makes no difference to me. Of course, if Judge Speight is present it will require translation from German into English in order to understand the interrogation. It just occurs to me that this might be more desirable. I am just pointing out to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: How about Major Schaefer of the Defense Information Center?
MR. MC HANEY: Entirely satisfactory to the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, will you make the arrangements with Major Schaefer to be present at your interrogation.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Before you start, Dr. Froeschmann, may I ask the witness: Were you ever finally discharged as an inmate and rehired as a civilian?
A. Yes.
Q. How long before the liberation of the camp was your transfer actually accomplished?
A. On 10 February 1945 I was released from the concentration camp as an inmate and I was transferred to the Klinker Works as a civilian employee. I was conscripted for labor there in accordance with regulations at that time. I had to live within the plant area and, consequently, I also had to stay in the concentration camp area. I received a civilian salary and I was employed as a bookkeeper and as a commercial manager. I was subject to certain restrictions; That is to say I was not allowed to leave Neuengamme without specific orders of the plant manager.
Q. When was Neuengamme liberated?
A. On 3 May 1945 I personally turned over the concentration camp Neuengamme to Major Boyle of British Military Government, Detachment 521. At the end of April the SS had left and had completely evacuated the camp. As a result of the fact that I was not an inmate anymore I was able to hide although I should have gone along with the SS. Consequently I was the last inmate in Neuengamme.
Q. Then you served as a civilian for about three months?
A. March, April - not quite 3 months, about 2½ months.
BY DE. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, I am now coming to the end of your examination and I must say that you have been very objective in your statements although one could have suspected other feelings to be harbored by you. In the course of the trial two concepts have been of importance and thy have repeatedly awakened the interest of the Tribunal. They are surrounded by a certain veil of sevrecy. One is the concept of the crematorium and the chamber harboring the corpes in the concentration camp about which the Prosecution had alleged that very wide circles, and in part my client Mummenthey, must have known something about them.
The other concept is the concept of the punitive company and a number of witnessess have mentioned that from their own point of view. I believe that in the interest of an objective explanation it is necessary for you to describe these two concepts to us in detail, in particular to what extent Mummenthey had knowledge of these things, and to what extent he was able to have knowledge about them, and if he did have knowledge what he did about these things. Please tell us something about that.
A. Whenever a concentration camp was established then the most important institutions were not the kitchen or the hospital or the accommodations, for the inmates but the most important things were: (1) the chamber where the corpses could be stored; (2) the place where the corpses could be cremated; and (3) the punitive detachment.
This is a parallel to what was done in the colonies of Germany before the First World War. When I was a boy I once read the history of the colonization of Cameroun. The German colonial agencies first of all established police stations and prisons, and that is exactly what was done in the concentration camps. The punitive detachments were institutions of the camp. The camp commander used them in order to exercise his punitive authority over the inmates. The camp commander in most cases was a very uneducated and primitive human being. Other people wouldn't have acted like that. He decided about the life and death of thousands of inmates. He had the punitive authority from 1940 or '39 on. He had the following possibilities; (1) he was able to order the flogging of inmates, a fact which is well known. The inmate would be put on a bench and SS people would flog him with heavy whips. The second possibility of punishment was hanging. I myself got acquainted with this method on several occasions. From 1940 on the hands were tied on the back of the inmate with chains and in this way the inmate was pulled up above the ground, and in that way he was left hanging so that his body would be suspended in the air. Of course the joints would be dislocated in the arms, and the inmate would be incapable of performing any work for quite some time. I want to add here that this method of punishment was abolished at the end of 1942 upon the recommendation of the plant managers and the economic sector.
The next medium of punishment was the punitive company. All vio lations for which some sort of punishment was imposed on inmates were always of a very slight and minor nature.
For example, I was flogged on one occasion with twenty-five lashes of the whip because somebody found me loitering around when I should have been working. After all, I only had a purely commercial activity. On one occasion I stood at the roll-call square and the man in charge of the detachment saw me and he wrote out a report about it. Several days later I had to report to the punitive board, and here I received the punishment for my violation. I was not allowed to make any statement there at all. The report read that I had stood around when I should have been working. I had loitered, and the commander told me in the SS terminology, "Well, you pig, you are too lazy to work, and now we are going to beat you up." He did not consider the fact that I had a very important job and that I fulfilled my work efficiently in the plant. I couldn't tell that to the commander and he wasn't interested at all in that. A few days later I was actually flogged, and then the whole case was settled.
THE PRESIDENT: Who administered the flogging?
THE WITNESS: The SS block leaders. They were noncommissioned officers, and each of them was in charge of one block. That was a block of barracks where the inmates were accommodated, and all the inmates could be assigned to the punitive detachment for very minor violations, for example, because they had smoked when they should have been working, or some other minor violation. However, there were also transfers to the punitive detachments as the result of the inmate's records. When, in the year 1940, the concentration camp Neuengamme was established, the commander created a punitive detachment which was divided into three parts. It was called Roller I, Roller II, and Roller III. The name of this punitive detachment originated from its work. The inmates were harnessed before heavy rollers, and then they had to pull these rollers back and forth across a square of the newly established camp, and the new camp road which was being constructed.
In this way they were to make the soil more solid on the square and on the road. When they were doing this work SS men of the concentration camp would drive them on to work with whips. The inmates who worked on Roller I were the Jews who were situated within the camp. This particular camp commander was especially hostile toward the Jews, and whenever he had not succeeded in killing all the Jews he would put the remainder into that punitive detachment. In Roller II all the inmates were put who had to wear a red point on their uniform because on an earlier occasion they had tried to escape. In Roller III only inmates were located who had been guilty of some small disciplinary violations. When the work of hardening the soil of the road and the square had been completed the commander had to find a new work for the punitive detachment.
He ordered them to dig a very big cellar, and here water constantly accumulated because the Elbe River was situated nearby, and there was a lot of water in the soil. At that time I was also in the punitive company for several days, and I saw that the inmates had to get into the water which went up to their chests, and they had to put the water into buckets and empty the pit. This work was not important at all. There was no use to it. That is how the inmates were kept busy with chicanery, and the purpose of all this was to torture the inmates in the punitive company and to kill them as a result of this torture.
The death rate was correspondingly high. The SS noncommissioned offices, mostly there were two or three of them who were in charge of this punitive detachment, and who were exclusively and directly subordinated to the concentration-camp commander, were always by selection extremely brutal.
Most of them were very young fellows, and since they were unable to prove that they were heroes at the front, they consequently tried to become heroes by torturing the defenseless inmates. They also competed with each other in discovering new methods of torture and killing the inmates in the punitive detachments. Let me give you an example.
When I was in this punitive detachment there was also a Catholic priest there of a high standing. He was only in the concentration camp because he had preached against Hitler from his pulpit. That is why he was sent to the concentration camp, and at the same time he was assigned to the punitive detachment. This inmate was about to die and he was lying in a coma next to our place of work. One of these block leaders had discovered an especially funny method of torture. He would urinate into the mouth of the man who was just about to die and then he would complete his joke by saying, "Well, my priest, now you have received the last salvation." Yes, the SS could be funny on occasions, but only according to its nature.
This punitive detachment, after the death of Heydrich, was entrusted with work after 1942 which had some sort of sense at least. The commander was afraid that he would be reproached if it was ever noticed that he only used the inmates in the punitive detachment in order to torture them. Of course, now he was looking for the heaviest work for them.
Part of the Klinker works was a so-called clay pit. It was located in the area around the Klinder works, and here the clay was removed, from the soil. This was done in such a way that the soft, fertile part of the soil was removed, and then inmates had to dig up the clay with a spade. They had to load it up on wagons, and then these little wagons were pulled away be engines which were operated by other inmates to the clay-processing plant.
Digging up clay is, of course, very heavy work. In areas where a lot of clay can be found and where the clay layer is deep enough, this work is usually done by dredging machines which remove the clay. In Neuengamme this was a technical problem which could not be solved. Consequently, the clay had to be removed by inmates. Up to that time the work had been carried out by inmates of the Klinker Works from approximately 1943 on. The commander who had the necessary authority since he was also the plant manager assigned the punitive company in order to remove this clay.
As I have already stated, this work was extremely difficult. However, the condition of the inmates in the punitive detachment now was considerably improved as a result of the fact they had some useful work to do at last. Up to that time they had been subject to the brutality of the SS, who had nothing better to do than to find new ways of torturing them.
Now, at last, even if they had to do heavy work, they could keep busy.
The death rate in the punitive detachment now decreased rapidly. That was not the fault nor the merit of the commander, but conditions now caused the death rate to be lower and the commander must have felt pretty sorry about that. However, from that time on, he had to take care of the inmates and now he could not go on killing the inmates any more as he had done before.
The punitive company had nothing whatsoever to do with the Klinker Works. The punitive detachment was not counted as being part of the number of workers who were furnished to the Klinker Works by the concentration camp. The punitive detachment had to go out to work in a special formation and it returned in a special formation. It could not have any contact whatsoever with the inmates who were working at the Klinker Works. There also was a special man in charge of the detachment. His name was Frahm. This man has been hanged in the meantime.
Q Did the business manager Kahn or the plant manager Kahn point out these monstrous conditions to the plant commander and what action was taken?
A The plant manager Kahn did not like the idea that within sight of the plant this punitive detachment was assigned to work by the commander. I would like to say that in his foresight he even recognized the difficulties which might have arisen for the plant if the tendency of the punitive detachment had remained as it was before. It would have had a depressing effect on the inmates and, therefore, the efficiency and the will to work of the other inmates might have been affected. However, the camp commander gave the competent orders there and nobody could change them.
The plant manager tried to get some advantages for the inmates of the punitive detachment. That was done upon the suggestion of the other inmates and on several occasions he succeeded in obtaining permission from the commander that chewing tobacco or fish were procured for these inmates. However, these were very rare cases and the commander did not like to let anybody interfere with regard to his punitive company.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I didn't catch the name of these categories. It sounded like "Rollers."
DR. FROESCHMANN: It's a roller, your Honor -- it's a steam roller.
Q Witness, from the draft which you handed over to me, I know that one particular case is significant for that. That is the incident about the procurement of fish. Can you tell us something about it?
A On one occasion -- I think it was in the summer or the fall of 1944 -- a large shipment of fish was distributed in the inmate mess. These fishes had arrived at Hamburg and could not be distributed to the interior of Germany because of transportation difficulties. For this reason, the food office turned over a wagon of fish to the camp. This fish was sold to the inmates for coupons. Since the inmates did not have enough coupons at the time, the plant purchased a large number of fish and these fishes were turned over to the inmates who worked in the plant. This happened on a Saturday. The fishes had to be consumed quickly and early on Sunday morning I turned over a large number of fishes to the in mates -- I think about 200 pounds.
At the expense of the plant I had these fishes taken to the works from the mess hall.
On Sunday, however, only about 40 people were actually working; so, by means of a little trick, I was able to turn over the remainder of the fish, about 150 pounds, to the inmates in the punitive company.
I asked Kahn to call the commander. I asked him to tell the commander that we had some fish left over here which would spoil otherwise. He was to ask the commander whether he would give the permission that the punitive company could receive these fishes.
First of all he didn't agree but when Kahn told the commander that they were already half spoiled anyway, the commander finally gave his approval. Of course, at that time the fishes were still in a good condition. Just by means of this little trick, the inmates of the punitive company were able to receive something extra from the plant.
Q Witness, if I have understood you correctly before, then you want to say that towards the outside it might appear as if this punitive detachment had been employed by the plant. According to your description, however, that is not correct.
A It is possible that an inmate who did not know the exact connections in this case could assume that the punitive detachment was part of the group of inmates who were employed by the plant. However, that is not correct. I want to emphasize that the punitive detachment of the commander belonged solely to the commander. This commander -his name was Pauli -- would not have turned over his punitive company to anybody else's authority.
Q Witness, the second point which interests me is the crematorium. Was the crematorium one of the secrets of the concentration camps or was it a secret that was known to everybody in general?
AActually, the concentration camp itself was secret, and the facilities like the crematorium were to be kept secret by all means. Towards the outside the concentration camp headquarters surrounded itself with a veil of secrecy and they told the public a beautiful tale about their generosity and their humaneness. In fact, however, there were nothing but murders and crimes committed in the concentration camps.
Nobody was allowed to talk about the crematorium and nobody was supposed to know anything about it. We had the absurd condition there that even SS people who did not enter the camp only heard from conversations with the inmates that these facilities actually existed.
Q Witness, I want to talk about one more point which deals with the punitive detachment. In the course of the trial, a witness by the name of Kruse has also made statements about the punitive detachment here and they could lead to the conclusion that the punitive detachment had worked for the plant. Do you know this man Kruse?
A I first have to search my memory. I believe in the office for several days we had an inmate by the name of Kruse. I think he came from Hamburg. He was about my size. He had dark hair, a dark complexion, and he was about 40 years old. If he is the man you are referring to, then I must say that he spent only a very short time in the Klinker Works. I knew him in the camp and because we had the same ideas I had frequent discussions with him. However, I don't think that this man Kruse was able to recognize the internal connections, particularly with regard to the punitive detachment. If he has given another description from what I have just stated in detail, then the reason for this may be that he was not so closely acquainted with the actual conditions.
Furthermore, he frequently heard from me about the development of the plant. We were usually not discussing the punitive company because this did not interest us too much. Therefore, if he has any knowledge about the connections in the DEST, then he can only have gained it from me at the time when both of us were inmates at Neuengamme.
Q Witness, you have such an extensive knowledge about the conditions which prevailed there that I would like to ask you a question about one person; that is the person of Schondorff. Does the name mean anything to you?
A Schondorff was the assistant business manager of the DEST and in a parallel position he was the deputy of his chief, the business manager of the DEST; the direction of office WI was divided into three parts.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Schonforf was the technical Director of the Department of Brick Works. His career shows that. He was a professor at a technical high sthool at Lippe or Lage, and, with his assistant, an architect by the name of Fuerth--I think his name was Roman Fuerth--he was appointed as technical director of the DEST in 1938 or 1939. He then rose in his position and then he received the insignia of an SS officer. Then, together with Mummenthey, and a man by the name of Schwarz, he occupied one of the three executive positions within the DEST. Schwarz was a Prokurist; Schondorf was the technical director; Mummenthey was the commercial manager, and, as commercial manager, he was the main business manager.
Schondorf came to Neuengamme very often. He was there more often than Mummenthey. If you want to hear my estimation of Schondorf, I think that he was a very dual person. He was an authority in the field of constructing modern brick works. He was also an expert in the field of obtaining extra fees for his work. I know several things which may not be publicly known. I have seen the contracts, and although Schondorf was a business manager and he received a salary as such, he still received extra pay for his drafts. I think that he cheated the SS treasury on several occasions.
When he made a draft about the brick works at Neuengamme he asked for a special fee, and this fee was approved. Actually, this fee, according to its amount, should have called for a completely new draft. In reality, however, the brick works at Neuengamme, had already existed in part before and they had been constructed actually for the Hermann Goering Works. Since Schondorf was a technical expert, he was frequently at Neuengamme when the operation of the plan began. He was not interested at all in matters pertaining to the inmates, and he did not have any attitude for or against the inmates. He used to walk around in the uniform of a Higher SS Officer and, as I have said before, he was the deputy of the second business manager next to Mummenthey. He only had contact with inmates if they were also technicians because the planning and the execution of the work was strictly in the hands of the inmates.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Witness, do you know that Schondorf had a special contract with the defendant Pohl? By virtue of this contract he also occupied a special position which put him into the foreground very strongly.
A Yes; Schondorf was extremely selfish. Without any doubt it was very difficult for his partners in the business to work with him. He only looked out for his own advantage, and to use a common expression-he was two-faced.
While Mummenthey still trusted him, he already had maintained a different attitude in some cases, and Schondorf even went so far that when he had discussions about various events or incidents or labor questions, where inmates were concerned, he would make certain remarks or would issue orders which--if someone looked into the matter carefully-were actually directed against Mummenthey. He had a special contract, which I have already described before, and I have already mentioned part of that with regard to the fee. Just what special authority he had, I don't know.
However, he did have special authorities, and he stated very often that he did not actually have to accept any orders from anybody.
Q Witness, in conclusion, as the Defense counsel of Mummenthey, I would like to fulfill the duty of asking you how you judge Mummenthey as a person, in his capacity as a business manager of the DEST, and in particular as the responsible manager in the DEST next to Schondorf, in the year 1941 with regard to the crimes which the Prosecution has charged against him, crimes against humanity?
A I don't know precisely just what Mummenthey has been indicted for. If a crime against humanity has been alleged, then on the basis of the knowledge which I have gained personally about Mummenthey--and I must emphasize here, that I must limit myself for the most part to Neuengamme and aside from orders which he issued--I have to reach the conclusion that Mummenthey would not commit any inhumane acts at all.
Mummenthey, like many SS people, was a victim of the belief that he had a certain power and authority and, in reality, because these people were completely disorganized and he actually was only part of a current Court No. II, Case No. 4.which drew him and his comrades along.
They did not suffer so much-but the inmates did. They were the victims of their own personalities. They were completely incapable of running and operating and organizing such economic enterprises and such economic concerns.
They were unable to develop this enterprise, and it was tragic that they believed that they were capable of doing so. We must not forget that this economic structure was one of the biggest concerns in Germany; but, in fact, it was not a concern at all because it did not have the structure of a concern. Here, just a number of enterprises were put together, and they did not even belong together as far as the work was concerned. These plants were not a natural structure at all. They were not established on the basis of economic necessity but they were established contrary to the natural requirements. This was the result of the mistaken concept of the State life, and that is why many of the inmates had to die and suffer torture.
We always used a very brief expression and we would say in very brief words, "No blessing is on these plants"; and actually there was no economic blessing on them either. You cannot single out Mummenthey and say, "Well, just what is Mummenthey?" In order to recognize Mummenthey, you must take a look at the entire organization.
Here we had an economic structure which was actually glued together. All these enterprises had been stolen or illegally obtained and, actually, these enterprises constituted a tremendous power. All this was directed by a former assistant paymaster. He believed that he was able to direct this economic enterprise-
Q Are you referring to Pohl now?
A Yes. After all, the whole organization was directed by Pohl who was formerly an assistant paymaster. He thought that he actually was steering the organization; however, in reality, he was unable to steer the whole thing. Below him there were dozens of SS officers who were fighting for the control -- concentration camp commanders and so on -- and they, in reality, were steering this economic boat. Thus they brought about the collapse, and that is why so many inmates had to die.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
However, we must also consider another point. When we raised the question: How could it happen that these people although they were not qualified to handle their jobs, because of lack of experience and so on, had obtained such an economic authority and such power over human beings?
Of course this raises a problem. Behind these defendants stood the German people; they are also indicted in all their actions. There should not be any exceptions whatsoever. After all, the power of the SS was not a power solely based on the SS. The concept of obedience which is so prevalent in Germany was based on the feelings of the German people. I have seen it from the literature, on the business correspondence, and all the small details of the economic life in this structure.
There I have seen how grateful the Germans were--and also very important persons in economic life: Ministerial directors, no matter what position they held, or finance consultants in big cities--when they could actually crawl on their stomachs before one of the defendants who wore the SS insignia. This feeling of individual Germans to obey existed. No matter what position they held, they wanted to be servile to the SS; they wanted to crawl before the SS and fawn before them. That is what gave these men the belief that they were big economic leaders.
After all, their efficiency was nil, as far as economic matters were concerned. Such a structure which has to fulfill so many difficult prerequisites, and the struggle against the concentration camp commanders, the struggle in order to maintain the efficiency of the inmates--such enterprises could not use any incapable persons as plant managers. They did not need people of average efficiency, but such enterprises required people who were extraordinarily capable of performing their work. I do not believe that the result of what we have seen entitles us to say that these people were capable enough in order to solve this large complex of problems. They were unable to master these problems; they could not solve these problems because they were not capable of doing their work. Therefore, they were unable to handle the work in the economic sector, and their failure has cost the lives of many people.