Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Yes, from 1940 to 1943.
A I shall have to correct myself here. From 1940 to 1943 I was not in Berlin, but I was in Berlin only in the year 1943. In the meantime I was a soldier. I visited Dr. Hohberg only in 1943 in Berlin, that was in his apartment at Darmstedterstrasse, No. 2.
Q Do you know whether, and if so, where Dr. Hohberg's office was?
A Dr. Hohberg's office according to my knowledge was at Darmstaedterstrasse, No. 2, because in his office I used to wait quite frequently. If I remember correctly, I believe when you entered the ante-room there was a nameplate on his door on the righthand side, and it said, "Dr. Hohberg, Auditor." I was there on several occasions, and we discussed all sorts of things.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you anything about inhumane conditions in the concentration camps?
A Yes, Dr. Hohberg informed me about inhumane conditions in the concentration camps, and he informed me of that when in the morning we were walking through the streets of Berlin. I remember his first remark because I said, "Hansie, why do you tell me about all those things?" At first he did not answer me, and then I asked him again, and I said, "What am I to think about it, can I do anything about it?" and he answered me, "Well, why do you think I am telling you all these things for."
Q Did Dr. Hohberg at any time give you any figures about the DWB concern?
A Yes, Dr. Hohberg showed me figures about the DWB.
Q Can you still remember what was contained in those papers?
A No, I can not remember that, and I can tell you positively that he showed me the accounts including figures and so forth. Dr. Hohberg told me when he took these accounts out of his desk, "Look at this spot," he said, "Look at this embezzlement here," and he showed me a very big figure, but I can not recall how much it was. Whereupon I asked him, "Yes, but as an auditor you can refuse to certify to that account and balance." Dr. Hohberg then told me, "I haven't done it and Court No II, Case No. 4.I can't do it, and that is why a lot of people are hostile toward me."
Q Did Dr. Hohberg show you any photostatic copies of documents concerning the DWB and the WVHA?
A Dr. Hohberg showed me photostatic copies, and I can recall the fact very well because at the time I could not see why Dr. Hohberg was doing this all of a sudden. After all we were engaged in a war, and I did not think about such things. He also told me that he was collecting all of this material and that he was putting it in a safe, in a bank in Berlin, and he informed me about that on several occasions when I was in his ante-room.
Q Where were these documents kept at the time he informed you of these facts?
A When Dr. Hohberg showed them to me, he took them out of a drawer of his desk.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you why he kept this material in his private office at Darmstaedterstrasse?
A Dr. Hohberg said the following at the time: "What is going on here can not result in any good, but you can believe me that I have taken all the necessary measures in case I should ever be held responsible for this."
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you anything about his position with regard to the SS leaders of the DWB or the WVHA?
A I don't know how I am to understand this question. Please repeat the question.
Q Do you know whether the SS leaders in the WVHA or the DWB respectively were opposed to Dr. Hohberg?
A Yes, according to what Dr. Hohberg told me. Dr. Hohberg made a very depressed impression on me at the time, and he told me that the leaders of the DWB were spying on him, and if I can use this expression that the whole idea was to knock him off. He told me the reasons were that he was neither a member of the Party nor of the SS and that the higher SS leaders considered him to be an outsider. I was under the impression at the time, in 1943, that Dr. Hohberg was really glad to be Court No. II, Case No. 4.able to leave the DWB by being conscripted into the Wehrmacht.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg ever tell you anything about his intentions to transfer the DWB concern to the Reich?
A During that time we did a lot of talking, and I really could not tell you in detail what Dr. Hohberg said, but the idea was undoubtedly the following: Dr. Hohberg thought that the economic situation of the DWB would only be brought into a normal condition again if the Reich would hold the majority of the shares. I was under the impression that Dr. Hohberg's policy was to reach that aim.
Q Did you meet another collaborator in the DWB at the office of Dr. Hohberg?
A I believe that I met a collaborator of the DWB on one or two occasions. I believe his name was Dr. May. He was at Dr. Hohberg's place at the same evening when I was there, too.
Q Were you together with Dr. Hohberg and Dr. May for any length of time?
A I believe I have already stated that I only remained in Berlin for one night, and I visited Dr. Hohberg on that night, and we sat together all night long until morning, and we spoke about all sorts of things, and discussed a lot of questions. Later on after I returned from my assignment, I came back to Berlin again and contrary to my travel orders, I spent the night there. The reason was that what Dr. Hohberg had told me had impressed me in such a manner that I wanted to hear more about it. I was in Berlin on yet another day, and then returned on the following morning.
Q During this discussion, did you also discuss political matters?
A Yes, we almost exclusively discussed political matters, and Dr. Hohberg told me that the war was lost. I told him that this was absolutely impossible, because our armies were still in Russian, and we still held the entire Atlantic Coast. Even if we had lost a little bit of the foreign land here and there, this did not mean very much, because luck always changed during wartime. Then Dr. Hohberg drew my attention to economic matters which at the time created the first doubts in my mind Court No. II, Case No. 4.whether we could win the war in spite of the shortage of materials and in spite of the fact that we were unable to send the necessary supplies to the front.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Hein, the Presiding Judge indicated to you this morning that you should ask questions of the witness and not give him free reign. That is the way you should conduct the examination, it seems to me. You put a general question, and he goes on interminably. Now, if you just keep after him, question after question, you can hold him in line, BY DR. HEIM:
Q: Witness, I asked you whether at the time the discussion dealt with political questions, and you answered yes?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you now tell us in more detail about the discussion at the time as far as the discussion was of a political nature?
A: In the answer which I just gave you I told you of a political attitude, according to my opinion, because after all if we speak about the war this is closely connected with politics, and if Dr. Hohberg thought that the war was lost, by that I meant to say that he made me stop and think about my political attitude, insofar as he did speak about politics.
Q: Did Dr. Hohberg convince you at that time that the war was lost for Germany?
A: I would like to say that he convinced me of it.
Q: Did Dr. Hohberg also say something against the National Socialist ideology and did he make any comment about that?
A: Yes, even that happened.
Q: Can you give us more details about that point? I could not repeat literally what we spoke about because we spoke of quite a lot, but I know that Dr. Hohberg at all times was opposed to the National-Socialist leadership.
I had to recognize that at the time. Of course, I had known Dr. Hohberg for quite a while, and I deduced that he knew all that from his experiences.
Q: During those conversations did you have the impression that Dr. Hohberg was an anti-Fascist?
A: Yes, I did have this impression absolutely.
Q: Can you tell us the reasons why you reached that conclusion?
A: The reasons were that Dr. Hohberg did not like the position he held at the time, and he told me at the time literally that he wanted to get out of that organization. That was a term which he used repeatedly on that occasion.
Q: On one of those occasions did you at any time discuss with Dr. Hohberg the idea of joining some organization which was opposed to the Party?
A: According to my recollection, that word was not used, but I do believe that Dr. Hohberg tried to collaborate with these people and that he was looking for circles which were opposed to the Party.
Q: Do you know if he found such circles?
A: I thought that Dr. May was a member of such a circle.
Q: Why did you think so?
A: I met Dr. May on two occasions at Dr. Hohberg's house. He told me about his own life and about his fate, and Dr. May maintained the same ideas as Dr. Hohberg. He was also opposed to the Party, the waging of war, and against the excesses as such.
Q: Can you tell us more details about that discussion between Hohberg and May?
A: The discussion between Hohberg and May, in detail, dealt with economic things. Dr. May, when I met him, was the owner of several factories. I believe that they were furniture factories. Dr. Hohberg spoke a lot with Dr. May about these enterprises. At that time it was also mentioned that Dr. May had lost some factory. I don't remember the name of the factory any more. The factory was taken away from him because of his political attitude. I did not know the circumstances in detail. I was just a witness of the conversation because I happened to be present.
Q: Did these anti-Fascist discussions which you had with Dr. Hohberg have any influence on you?
A: Yes. At the time I was in a conflict with my own conscience. As you probably know, we as soldiers in the war had the duty to fight against people who were trying to undermine the morale of the armed forces. At that time, practically speaking, I should have informed the counter-intelligence officer of the particular until to which I was assigned. However, I did not do it because of the conflict between my sense of duty and my conscience because I told myself: "Whatever Dr. Hohberg is telling you cannot be untrue. It is bound to be true." I had known him for such a long time that I really did know what to believe and what not to. I thought a lot of him. In this conflict between duty and responsibility, I did not inform the counter-intelligence officer because I had to fear that Dr. Hohberg would incur difficulties as a result of his statement if he was not arrested right on the spot.
Q: Did you speak about the things which you had heard from Dr. Hohberg? Did you pass them on?
A: Yes, first of all, I had to do so when I was with my family on leave. I told them I had heard certain things from Dr. Hohberg, things which I thought to be incomprehensible, which appeared to be so untrue, so incredible, and so new to me that actually my attitude and my ideas had been severely shaken. I even spoke about those things to my comrades, when we discussed various happenings that occurred during the war.
Q: Did you find credence among all the people that you told these thing to?
A: No, I did not.
Q: What was the regular answer that you received?
A: Most of the time I was told that these things were probably exaggerated.
Q: Do you know by whom Dr. Hohberg had been informed about all the things that were unknown to the population?
A: No, I could not give you any names of the people who gave him that impression, but personally I was under the impression that he gained all that knowledge from his activity as an auditor.
Q: Do you know whether Dr. Hohberg made any derogatory remarks about Pohl to you?
A: Not only on one occasion, but repeatedly. I would not have noticed that because the name of Pohl did not seem familiar to me at the time, if he hadn't said the following: He spoke of General in the Waffen-SS with the character and the ability of a paymaster. That was the only thing that I recall. It stuck in my memory.
Q: Did Dr. Hohberg at anytime make any statement to you about the ethics of the SS?
A: Yes, but he did not make any statement about the ethics of the SS, but rather a statement which was directed against the ethics of the SS, particularly statements which were directed against the eugenics on the part of the SS.
Q: Witness, would you please speak a little bit slower? Do you still recall details about that?
A: May I ask you how you mean that question -- whether I knew details about the ethics of the SS or the eugenics of the SS?
Q: No, I want to know if you know details about the statements of Dr. Hohberg against the ethics and eugenics of the SS.
A: As far as the eugenics were concerned, Dr. Hohberg told me the following, in general: He told me that he had heard that German women had placed themselves at the disposal of the breeding experiments, so to speak of the SS, and that one woman for example had several children from several SS men. Dr. Hohberg used bitter, sarcastic terms in describing these things, particularly due to the fact that these children were living later on without the protection of their parents. I would like to stress and repeat the point that Dr. Hohberg in that connection old me again and again, "whatever is going on here cannot work out well."
Q: Dr. Tenbergen, if I understood you correctly so far, we could say -- to us Dr. Seidl's words -- that Dr. Hohberg was a "fanatic anti-Fascist"?
A: Yes, I can say, that, and through the impression which I gained in 1943 I can even say more. I thought that Dr. Hohberg was a revolutionist, a rebel, who was looking for circles that would possibly go along with him at a later date, because after all I couldn't understand why Dr. Hohberg had told me in particular such things in 1943.
Q: Witness, please speak slower for the translators. You told us that you are a bookseller. Were you that during the war also?
A: Yes, I sold books during the war also. My firm was administered by my sister while I was away.
Q: Was that sales store bombed out?
A: Yes, it was destroyed by bombs on several occasions.
Q: You surely tried to get other books?
A: Yes, I did. I tried to have these books replaced. I tried to contact the publishing firms in Vienna, because I was stationed there for a while.
Q: Did you also try on one occasion to receive books from the Nordland publishing firm?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you apply to Dr. Hohberg on one occasion with that request?
A: Yes, I did that in 1943. The situation was such that Dr. Hohberg at the time had told me that he knew a man by the name of Lindenbrinck who was sorting the deliveries of books and that maybe he would be able to get something through Herr Lindenbrinck, and I told him, "If you have such good contacts and connections, do try to get a few books from other publishing firms so that I can complete my stock." Thereupon Dr. Hohberg told me, "Practically speaking, I know of only one more publishing firm here, That is the Nordland publishing firm, but I can't very well recommend that publishing firm to you. I do not want to recommend that publishing firm to you." I recall that conversation very well, because we shared the same bedroom, and we spoke about these things across the beds, and Dr. Hohberg asked me at the time whether I was in financial distress and said that he would gladly help me, but a recommendation to the Nordland firm he simply did not want to give me under any circumstances.
Q. Witness, did you yourself try anything on your own initiative in order to get books from the Nordland publishing firm?
A. I kept trying according to my idea because I wanted to complete my stock and replenish it, but I did not succeed in getting an order through and ordering some books from the Nordland publishing firm. I corresponded with my sister about the entire case, and at the time I wanted to borrow an amount of 30,000 marks to purchase new books. Because Dr. Hohberg had refused recommending the Nordland publishing firm, I had written to my sister that in case we should have contacts with that publishing firm not to buy any political books.
THE PRESIDENT: Let's either spend this 30,000 marks or do something else with it, but eventually get to Hohberg. What has Hohberg to do with the Nordland Publishing Company, to say nothing of the witness's sister?
BY DR. HEIM:
Q. Witness, did Dr. Hohberg himself take away your order which you gave directly to the Nordland publishing firm?
A. I did not give an order to the Nordland publishing firm, because I was so much under the influence of Dr. Hohberg's statement that I just couldn't make up my mind to order something from them. I went around with the idea, but I didn't realize my idea, because Dr. Hohberg did not want to send a written recommendation to the Nordland publishing firm. Personally I knew that I wouldn't have received that order fulfilled, because there was a lack of paper at that time and because I needed a recommendation. Dr. Hohberg would not give me that recommendation at the time.
DR. HEIM: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross-examination?
BY DR. SEIDL (For Defendant Oswald Pohl):
Q. Witness, what is your opinion about the moral qualities of a man who for years was making derogatory remarks about his immediate superior and who at the same time received 2,000 marks a month as a gift?
A. I do not understand your question.
DR. HEIM: Mr. President, I object to the admissibility of that.
THE PRESIDENT: I haven't heard it yet, but I sustain it.
DR. SEIDL: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions by defense counsel?
(No response)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. ROBBINS:
Q. How many times from 1940 to 1943 did you see Hohberg?
A. I didn't understand the question.
Q. How many times between 1940 and 1943 did you see the Defendant Hohberg? You wern't in Berlin.
A. I already stated that I saw him only in 1943 because I was in the war. In the meantime we just corresponded, from 1940 to 1943.
Q. Between 1940 and 1943, how many times did you see the Defendant Hohberg?
A. I did not see the Defendant Hohberg between 1940 and 1943, but I only saw him in 1943.
Q. And you told us you were a soldier, and that it was your duty to fight against defeatism. Will you tell us what unit you belonged to; what was your organization?
A. I did not say that. I did not say defeatism, but I spoke of undermining the morale of the armed forces. The term is different. The struggle against defeatism is a different-
THE PRESIDENT: What unit or organization did you belong to? Were you in the Wehrmacht
THE WITNESS: Yes, I was in the Wehrmacht, and I was with an antiaircraft unit.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. You were not a member of the party, were you?
A. I was not a member of the party nor was I a member of any affiliated organization.
Q. Were you a member of the SS or any affiliated organizations?
A. I stated before that I was not a member of any other affiliated organizations, therefore I couldn't have been a member of the SS.
Q. Not a member of the SA?
A. Nor was I a member of the SA.
Q. You would not describe yourself as an anti-fascist, would you?
A. I could call myself an anti-fascist for the reason that personally, not only during the war, but also prior to the war, I had contacts with circles which planned the attempt on Hitler's life for the 20th of July. If they did not attempt it, at least they were close to the group which did. One of my friends, one of the people I knew, and I have a document here that will prove that, is --
Q. Did you hear at any time of the Passmann Circle?
A. What circle are you talking about? Passmann? The Passmann Circle, no. That circle was not known to me, the Passmann Circle.
Q. Were you a member of any resistance movement, any underground movement?
A. No, I was not a member of a resistance or underground movement.
Q. You told us that you were a bookseller during the war, and it is true, isn't it, that you were familiar with the publishing companies in Germany?
A. The publishing firms in Germany were known to me.
Q. But you didn't know that the Nordland publishing company was an SS-firm and that it was a part of Amt W-VII until Hohberg told you, is that right?
A. That the Nordland publishing firm was an SS enterprise, that according to its economic organization belonged to the SS, I didn't know, because after all I couldn't know who was the owner behind that enterprise.
Q. But Hohberg told you that it was an SS enterprise?
A. Yes, Hohberg informed me of that.
Q. Did he tell you why you should not buy your books from Nordland?
A. Yes, he did. He told me that the Nordland publishing firm was one of the enterprises of the SS, and that this enterprise had the task to propagate the SS ideology among the German people, and he warned me from having any dealings with the Nordland publishing firm.
Q. Did you know that it was a policy of the SS firms to conceal the fact that they were SS firms? Didn't you assume that from your dealings with Nordland?
A. I had no negotiations with the Nordland.
Q. Excuse me. Did you know that it was a policy of the SS to conceal the fact that their firms were SS firms?
A. Dr. Hohberg told me that.
Q. Did he also tell you that it was the policy of these SS firms not to put on the trade register the SS ranks of members of the managing board?
A. No, we didn't discuss the matter in so much detail.
Q. Didn't he also tell you in line with this policy that Pohl wanted a non-SS man to represent the SS industries to the outside so that it would not become known to the public that they were SS industries? Did he tell you that?
A. I am sorry. That question is rather long. Would you repeat it please?
Q. Did Hohberg tell you that Pohl wanted a non-SS man in his industry to represent the industry to the outside public so that the public would not know that these firms were SS industries?
A. No, Hohberg did not tell me that.
Q. Did you see Hohberg shake his head in the dock just then?
A. No, I didn't see that.
Q. Did he tell you from 1943 that things had reached such a point with Pohl that Pohl would not accept him into the SS?
A. No, we didn't discuss that either. On the contrary, Hohberg said that he would never join the SS. He told me that people would like to have him in the SS particularly in 1943 when he was conscripted into the Army, but that he would never join the SS. That was what Hohberg told me.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. On a point of information, Witness, you know that the defendant tried to join the Army. Why was he not accepted?
A. According to my opinion the Defendant Hohberg was conscripted into the Army, because after 1943 I corresponded with him.
Q. Before he was accepted. Of course I know when he was accepted, he was accepted. But he tried to join the Army long before 1943 according to his statement. Now, why was he not accepted?
A. I don't understand your question. Prior to 1943 Dr. Hohberg had tried to join the Army?
Q. All right, I will read what you said. "I know as a fact that Dr. Hohberg tried every possible means of joining the Army."
A. Yes, Dr. Hohberg did tell me about that, but I would like to point out now, I would like to tell you in 1943 he wanted to join the Wehrmacht in order to get away from the DWB.
Q. Just answer the one question. Why was he not accepted in 1942 when he tried to join the Army?
A. I couldn't tell you that, because in 1942 I didn't visit Dr. Hohberg.
Q. But you had indicated that he tried every possible means. That naturally suggests that he had to try over and over. Well, why wasn't he being accepted?
A. Why he was not accepted in the Wehrmacht I do not know, but I do know, and he told me repeatedly, that he tried to join the Wehrmacht.
Q. Why was he turned down?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know?
A. No, I don't.
MR. ROBBINS: There is one point in the affidavit, I think, that hasn't been covered, if the Court please.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Is it true, Witness, that Hohberg showed you a balance sheet and told you that in connection with the SS industries that he had discovered an embezzlement which amounted to several million marks?
A. Yes.
MR. ROBBINS: That is all.
DR. HEIM: I have one single question, Mr. President.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HEIM:
Q. Dr. Hohberg showed you a balance sheet, as Mr. Robbins has just stated. Did he tell you anything else about an embezzlement in detail?
A. Dr. Hohberg did not give me any further details about it, but he showed me the debit side of the balance and he said: "Something has been embezzled here.
DR. HEIM: Thank you. That is sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: This witness will be excused from further attendance, and the Tribunal will recess until Monday morning at nine-thirty (Witness excused)
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal will be in recess until nine-thirty on Monday morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 21 July 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Official transcript of Military Tribunal II, Case IV, in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 21 July 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DR. HEIM for the defendant Hohberg: May it please your Honors, I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would permit me to reserve myself the right to examine the two witnesses whom I intended to call now as rebuttal witnesses at a later date as far as it should become necessary. Otherwise, the possibility might result that I would have to call these two witnesses again to the witness stand. Furthermore, I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would reserve me the right to introduce Document Book II for the defendant Hohberg at a later date. This will be done as soon as the remainder defense counsel will have it in German. Furthermore, I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would permit me to introduce additional documents which particularly refer to the crossexamination of the defendant Hohberg. The defendant Hohberg wants to make the following statement through me. During cross examination he was asked by the Prosecution if, apart from that letter that was introduced, he had signed another letter "I.A." That means "by order". The defendant believes that he remembers now having sent such a letter to an agency in Prague. I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would permit me to introduce affidavits concerning that matter as soon as I have received them. I would also appreciate it if the Tribunal would Court No. II, Case No. 4.permit me to reserve myself the right to discuss the point of "I.A." (that means "by order of") and produce an affidavit which will explain the legal meaning of "by order of". Thus I have finished the introduction of evidence of Dr. Hohberg.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness who is on the stand now is for the defendant Baier, not Hohberg. You may have the right to introduce your document book as soon as it is translated and in the hands of German counsel. You may recall the defendant Hohberg as a witness, only to cover the matters which you have just indicated. Why is it necessary to file any affidavits? Hohberg is the man who knows whether he signed "i.A." for Pohl.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, these affidavits which I would like to introduce will explain that the defendant Hohberg at the time signed "by order of" without the knowledge of the defendant Oswald Pohl. Furthermore, these affidavits will show what the defendant wanted to achieve by doing so, by signing "i.A."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the two men who know best about that are Pohl and Hohberg. They are both here in person. There are altogether too many affidavits being filed. It is entirely unnecessary to file an affidavit when the witness himself is here in court. This puts a great burden on the Translation Division and it proves nothing to file an affidavit which says the same thing that the witness says.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, then I would appreciate it if you would permit me to reserve myself the right that I examine again both the defendant Pohl and the defendant Hohberg as witnesses as soon as the document which charges them with that is introduced by the Prosecution, as the Prosecution had stated on Friday morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, you may have that right.
DR. HEIM: Thank you, your Honor.
DR. FRITSCH for the defendant BAIER: I am afraid I have to give an explanation at the beginning which is in the negative since I cannot introduce my Document Book either. I would appreciate it if I may reserve myself the right to introduce the Document Book at a later date.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT:; Is it because it hasn't been translated?
DR. FRITSCH: No, the Document Book is not translated as yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it in the hands of the Translation Department?
DR. FRITSCH: No, it isn't.
THE PRESIDENT: You haven't completed it yet yourself?
DR. FRITSCH: No, I have not been able to get a few witnesses yet who are supposed to give me affidavits. It is possible that these witnesses may appear here. However, I would like to avoid that and use the shorter way and use affidavits. One of the witnesses may arrive today.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you may introduce whatever documents you wish at any time.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you, your Honor.
I would appreciate it if you would permit me to examine the first witness then.
WITNESS - DR. HERMANN KAROLI DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, will you please give the Tribunal your full name as well as your birth date?
A My name is Dr. Hermann Karoli. I was born 27 March 1906, as the son of a Protestant chaplain in Harnbach, Siebenbuergen, which is Roumania today.
Q Now you are in a camp. If I am not wrong you are in jail here in Nurnberg now?
A Yes.
Q Do you have German citizenship, witness?
A Yes.
Q Where did you receive your education, in Germany or Roumania?
A I went to the Community School, then Gymnasium in Roumania. And, at 18 years of age - that is 1924, I came to Germany in order to study. I went through Commercial High School in Leipzig and then re Court No. II, Case No. 4.ceived my diploma as a merchant.