Q. Witness, did you yourself try anything on your own initiative in order to get books from the Nordland publishing firm?
A. I kept trying according to my idea because I wanted to complete my stock and replenish it, but I did not succeed in getting an order through and ordering some books from the Nordland publishing firm. I corresponded with my sister about the entire case, and at the time I wanted to borrow an amount of 30,000 marks to purchase new books. Because Dr. Hohberg had refused recommending the Nordland publishing firm, I had written to my sister that in case we should have contacts with that publishing firm not to buy any political books.
THE PRESIDENT: Let's either spend this 30,000 marks or do something else with it, but eventually get to Hohberg. What has Hohberg to do with the Nordland Publishing Company, to say nothing of the witness's sister?
BY DR. HEIM:
Q. Witness, did Dr. Hohberg himself take away your order which you gave directly to the Nordland publishing firm?
A. I did not give an order to the Nordland publishing firm, because I was so much under the influence of Dr. Hohberg's statement that I just couldn't make up my mind to order something from them. I went around with the idea, but I didn't realize my idea, because Dr. Hohberg did not want to send a written recommendation to the Nordland publishing firm. Personally I knew that I wouldn't have received that order fulfilled, because there was a lack of paper at that time and because I needed a recommendation. Dr. Hohberg would not give me that recommendation at the time.
DR. HEIM: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross-examination?
BY DR. SEIDL (For Defendant Oswald Pohl):
Q. Witness, what is your opinion about the moral qualities of a man who for years was making derogatory remarks about his immediate superior and who at the same time received 2,000 marks a month as a gift?
A. I do not understand your question.
DR. HEIM: Mr. President, I object to the admissibility of that.
THE PRESIDENT: I haven't heard it yet, but I sustain it.
DR. SEIDL: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions by defense counsel?
(No response)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. ROBBINS:
Q. How many times from 1940 to 1943 did you see Hohberg?
A. I didn't understand the question.
Q. How many times between 1940 and 1943 did you see the Defendant Hohberg? You wern't in Berlin.
A. I already stated that I saw him only in 1943 because I was in the war. In the meantime we just corresponded, from 1940 to 1943.
Q. Between 1940 and 1943, how many times did you see the Defendant Hohberg?
A. I did not see the Defendant Hohberg between 1940 and 1943, but I only saw him in 1943.
Q. And you told us you were a soldier, and that it was your duty to fight against defeatism. Will you tell us what unit you belonged to; what was your organization?
A. I did not say that. I did not say defeatism, but I spoke of undermining the morale of the armed forces. The term is different. The struggle against defeatism is a different-
THE PRESIDENT: What unit or organization did you belong to? Were you in the Wehrmacht
THE WITNESS: Yes, I was in the Wehrmacht, and I was with an antiaircraft unit.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. You were not a member of the party, were you?
A. I was not a member of the party nor was I a member of any affiliated organization.
Q. Were you a member of the SS or any affiliated organizations?
A. I stated before that I was not a member of any other affiliated organizations, therefore I couldn't have been a member of the SS.
Q. Not a member of the SA?
A. Nor was I a member of the SA.
Q. You would not describe yourself as an anti-fascist, would you?
A. I could call myself an anti-fascist for the reason that personally, not only during the war, but also prior to the war, I had contacts with circles which planned the attempt on Hitler's life for the 20th of July. If they did not attempt it, at least they were close to the group which did. One of my friends, one of the people I knew, and I have a document here that will prove that, is --
Q. Did you hear at any time of the Passmann Circle?
A. What circle are you talking about? Passmann? The Passmann Circle, no. That circle was not known to me, the Passmann Circle.
Q. Were you a member of any resistance movement, any underground movement?
A. No, I was not a member of a resistance or underground movement.
Q. You told us that you were a bookseller during the war, and it is true, isn't it, that you were familiar with the publishing companies in Germany?
A. The publishing firms in Germany were known to me.
Q. But you didn't know that the Nordland publishing company was an SS-firm and that it was a part of Amt W-VII until Hohberg told you, is that right?
A. That the Nordland publishing firm was an SS enterprise, that according to its economic organization belonged to the SS, I didn't know, because after all I couldn't know who was the owner behind that enterprise.
Q. But Hohberg told you that it was an SS enterprise?
A. Yes, Hohberg informed me of that.
Q. Did he tell you why you should not buy your books from Nordland?
A. Yes, he did. He told me that the Nordland publishing firm was one of the enterprises of the SS, and that this enterprise had the task to propagate the SS ideology among the German people, and he warned me from having any dealings with the Nordland publishing firm.
Q. Did you know that it was a policy of the SS firms to conceal the fact that they were SS firms? Didn't you assume that from your dealings with Nordland?
A. I had no negotiations with the Nordland.
Q. Excuse me. Did you know that it was a policy of the SS to conceal the fact that their firms were SS firms?
A. Dr. Hohberg told me that.
Q. Did he also tell you that it was the policy of these SS firms not to put on the trade register the SS ranks of members of the managing board?
A. No, we didn't discuss the matter in so much detail.
Q. Didn't he also tell you in line with this policy that Pohl wanted a non-SS man to represent the SS industries to the outside so that it would not become known to the public that they were SS industries? Did he tell you that?
A. I am sorry. That question is rather long. Would you repeat it please?
Q. Did Hohberg tell you that Pohl wanted a non-SS man in his industry to represent the industry to the outside public so that the public would not know that these firms were SS industries?
A. No, Hohberg did not tell me that.
Q. Did you see Hohberg shake his head in the dock just then?
A. No, I didn't see that.
Q. Did he tell you from 1943 that things had reached such a point with Pohl that Pohl would not accept him into the SS?
A. No, we didn't discuss that either. On the contrary, Hohberg said that he would never join the SS. He told me that people would like to have him in the SS particularly in 1943 when he was conscripted into the Army, but that he would never join the SS. That was what Hohberg told me.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. On a point of information, Witness, you know that the defendant tried to join the Army. Why was he not accepted?
A. According to my opinion the Defendant Hohberg was conscripted into the Army, because after 1943 I corresponded with him.
Q. Before he was accepted. Of course I know when he was accepted, he was accepted. But he tried to join the Army long before 1943 according to his statement. Now, why was he not accepted?
A. I don't understand your question. Prior to 1943 Dr. Hohberg had tried to join the Army?
Q. All right, I will read what you said. "I know as a fact that Dr. Hohberg tried every possible means of joining the Army."
A. Yes, Dr. Hohberg did tell me about that, but I would like to point out now, I would like to tell you in 1943 he wanted to join the Wehrmacht in order to get away from the DWB.
Q. Just answer the one question. Why was he not accepted in 1942 when he tried to join the Army?
A. I couldn't tell you that, because in 1942 I didn't visit Dr. Hohberg.
Q. But you had indicated that he tried every possible means. That naturally suggests that he had to try over and over. Well, why wasn't he being accepted?
A. Why he was not accepted in the Wehrmacht I do not know, but I do know, and he told me repeatedly, that he tried to join the Wehrmacht.
Q. Why was he turned down?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know?
A. No, I don't.
MR. ROBBINS: There is one point in the affidavit, I think, that hasn't been covered, if the Court please.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Is it true, Witness, that Hohberg showed you a balance sheet and told you that in connection with the SS industries that he had discovered an embezzlement which amounted to several million marks?
A. Yes.
MR. ROBBINS: That is all.
DR. HEIM: I have one single question, Mr. President.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HEIM:
Q. Dr. Hohberg showed you a balance sheet, as Mr. Robbins has just stated. Did he tell you anything else about an embezzlement in detail?
A. Dr. Hohberg did not give me any further details about it, but he showed me the debit side of the balance and he said: "Something has been embezzled here.
DR. HEIM: Thank you. That is sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: This witness will be excused from further attendance, and the Tribunal will recess until Monday morning at nine-thirty (Witness excused)
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal will be in recess until nine-thirty on Monday morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 21 July 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Official transcript of Military Tribunal II, Case IV, in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 21 July 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DR. HEIM for the defendant Hohberg: May it please your Honors, I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would permit me to reserve myself the right to examine the two witnesses whom I intended to call now as rebuttal witnesses at a later date as far as it should become necessary. Otherwise, the possibility might result that I would have to call these two witnesses again to the witness stand. Furthermore, I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would reserve me the right to introduce Document Book II for the defendant Hohberg at a later date. This will be done as soon as the remainder defense counsel will have it in German. Furthermore, I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would permit me to introduce additional documents which particularly refer to the crossexamination of the defendant Hohberg. The defendant Hohberg wants to make the following statement through me. During cross examination he was asked by the Prosecution if, apart from that letter that was introduced, he had signed another letter "I.A." That means "by order". The defendant believes that he remembers now having sent such a letter to an agency in Prague. I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would permit me to introduce affidavits concerning that matter as soon as I have received them. I would also appreciate it if the Tribunal would Court No. II, Case No. 4.permit me to reserve myself the right to discuss the point of "I.A." (that means "by order of") and produce an affidavit which will explain the legal meaning of "by order of". Thus I have finished the introduction of evidence of Dr. Hohberg.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness who is on the stand now is for the defendant Baier, not Hohberg. You may have the right to introduce your document book as soon as it is translated and in the hands of German counsel. You may recall the defendant Hohberg as a witness, only to cover the matters which you have just indicated. Why is it necessary to file any affidavits? Hohberg is the man who knows whether he signed "i.A." for Pohl.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, these affidavits which I would like to introduce will explain that the defendant Hohberg at the time signed "by order of" without the knowledge of the defendant Oswald Pohl. Furthermore, these affidavits will show what the defendant wanted to achieve by doing so, by signing "i.A."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the two men who know best about that are Pohl and Hohberg. They are both here in person. There are altogether too many affidavits being filed. It is entirely unnecessary to file an affidavit when the witness himself is here in court. This puts a great burden on the Translation Division and it proves nothing to file an affidavit which says the same thing that the witness says.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, then I would appreciate it if you would permit me to reserve myself the right that I examine again both the defendant Pohl and the defendant Hohberg as witnesses as soon as the document which charges them with that is introduced by the Prosecution, as the Prosecution had stated on Friday morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, you may have that right.
DR. HEIM: Thank you, your Honor.
DR. FRITSCH for the defendant BAIER: I am afraid I have to give an explanation at the beginning which is in the negative since I cannot introduce my Document Book either. I would appreciate it if I may reserve myself the right to introduce the Document Book at a later date.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT:; Is it because it hasn't been translated?
DR. FRITSCH: No, the Document Book is not translated as yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it in the hands of the Translation Department?
DR. FRITSCH: No, it isn't.
THE PRESIDENT: You haven't completed it yet yourself?
DR. FRITSCH: No, I have not been able to get a few witnesses yet who are supposed to give me affidavits. It is possible that these witnesses may appear here. However, I would like to avoid that and use the shorter way and use affidavits. One of the witnesses may arrive today.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you may introduce whatever documents you wish at any time.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you, your Honor.
I would appreciate it if you would permit me to examine the first witness then.
WITNESS - DR. HERMANN KAROLI DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q Witness, will you please give the Tribunal your full name as well as your birth date?
A My name is Dr. Hermann Karoli. I was born 27 March 1906, as the son of a Protestant chaplain in Harnbach, Siebenbuergen, which is Roumania today.
Q Now you are in a camp. If I am not wrong you are in jail here in Nurnberg now?
A Yes.
Q Do you have German citizenship, witness?
A Yes.
Q Where did you receive your education, in Germany or Roumania?
A I went to the Community School, then Gymnasium in Roumania. And, at 18 years of age - that is 1924, I came to Germany in order to study. I went through Commercial High School in Leipzig and then re Court No. II, Case No. 4.ceived my diploma as a merchant.
After that I went to the University in Innsbruck in Austria and I graduated with a Doctor title for a State science.
Q When did you become a German citizen?
A In the spring of 1932. I became a German citizen in Prussia under the then government of Braun-Severing through application.
Q Thank you, that is sufficient. You are an auditor by profession?
A Yes.
Q You were working with the "German Revisions and Treuhand A. G." in Berlin, weren't you?
A Yes.
Q What did your job consist of as an auditor, and what in particular were your tasks in the "German Revisions and Treuhand A. G."?
A When I started working as an auditor I concluded the yearly balances which were prescribed by law. Later on when I became a Prokurist in "German Revisions and Treuhand, A. G." I became the man in charge of an affiliated company and of the auditing. Then in 1938 when I became a member of the Supervisory Board of the company I also dealt with all sorts of managerial capacities.
Q In any case you have the ability to be an auditor and you also carry out that practice?
A Yes.
Q That's sufficient.
A In March of 1936 I was officially appointed an auditor.
Q Thank you. Were you a member of the Party or did you participate in any political activies?
A No, I was never a member of the Party nor the NSDAP and I never participated in political activites.
Q In your position as a member of the Board of Supervisors of "German Revisions and Treuhand A.G." did that have any particular bad influence ?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness should pause. He should wait after each question before he states the answer.
A. I did not quite get your last question.
Q. We were speaking about your membership-- or rather, your not having been a member of any party. You said that your were not a member of the NSDAP, and I asked you thereupon whether any disadvantages resulted from this.
A. Yes, indeed, several difficulties resulted from this, and that was the reason why I was repeatedly told to join the Party. My company was a Reich company, and we had to deal with the authorities in particular and with large industrial enterprises, the representatives of which were mostly closely connected with the Party.
Q. That is sufficient, witness. You were with the Waffen-SS. How did you come to join the Waffen-SS?
A. Toward the end of June 1942 I was conscripted.
Q. Were you not with the SS prior to that?
A. After the beginning of the war, the difficulties which I had in my profession kept on increasing, so that finally I had to make contact with the Party. Therefore, it was in 1940 that I made up my mind to join the Reiter-SS-- the Mounted SS--in Vienna. However, I never did perform any duties there, and I did not wear any uniform. I was just a formal member of that organization. Up to 1942 I was able to dodge the draft with the help of my company because the interests of my company demanded this. When the supply fro the front lines became more and more difficult and three hundred members of our organization had to join the army, it proved necessary that even a member of the board of supervisors had to join the army, and, as I was the youngest member of the board of supervisors and was moreover single, I was the one the choice fell upon. I was no longer permitted to dodge the draft, and as a member of the Reiter-SS I was conscripted into the Waffen SS.
Q. Could any one fight this conscription?
A. No, that was a military order which, if one did not comply with it, could result in punishment, according to war laws and, apart from that, I had no reason whatsoever for not joining the SS, for the Waffen-SS was considered as a good and well-disciplined military unit which had a good name.
Q. Then you were severely wounded in the East by a shot fired into your lung. You then returned to your homeland and were no longer able to perform any duties in the army. That is correct, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. How was it that you joined the WVHA?
A. After I was wounded I came into a reserve battalion and was declared unfit for service in the front lines after I had been wounded and after I had gone through several hospitals. As I did not have any rank and as I could not be used outside of the service either, I was used mostly for cleaning and kitchen work in the barracks. I was very unhappy about it. That was the reason I wrote to my company if they did not have a better job for me. My company thereupon answered my letter by saying that I could not possibly get leave from the SS but that the company had an auditing job to perform anyway for some company which was quite close to the Waffen-SS, and they told me that they would try to interpolate me and make me work for them. Toward the middle of November 1943 I received my orders of transfer to the WVHA Economic and Administrative Main Office.
Q. Did the German Revisions & Treuhand, A.G. have anything to do with the WVHA job?
A. No, not at all. According to my knowledge, my company received the order through the Reich Economy Ministry and the Court of Audits of the German Riech.
Q. What the Reich Ministry of Economics and the German Court of Audits have to do with this?
A. The Ministry of Economics had found out, or at least assumed, and suspected, that with the DWB--that is, the German Economic Enterprises--official funds were working and that, therefore, it was an enterprise that belonged to the community, so to say. That was the reason why, according to the Reich budget law it came under the auditing which is prescribed for official and community enterprises and since the company was used for such auditing work, it received the auditing order.
Q. In other words, it really was not a job of auditing for the WVHA but, rather, it was an auditing job for the German Economic Enterprise, the DWB?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you join the DWB as a representative of your company, or in what other capacity did you go?
A. I did not go as a person who was representing my company, but I went as a soldier in Staff W. My company had simply got the job for me.
Q. You had, therefore, been transferred to Staff W. Whom did you have to report to there?
A. I had to report to the Chief of Staff, Oberfuehrer Baier.
Q. What did the defendant Baier do?
A. He put me in the Revision Department there, and I was given the order to get used to the job. I stayed there for approximately four weeks, until the Christmas of 1943, and then I was sent to the Leaders! School of the Economic Administration in Arolsen in order to become an officer.
Q. When you joined Staff W, had Baier been there for quite a while?
A. No, he had been there for only a short time--I believe two or three months.
Q. Why was it that you were sent to the Leaders' School, witness? After all, you were an auditor, weren't you?
A. I was a soldier, at the time. I became a Sturmmann in the SS, and as most members of the Revision Department there had higher ranks and as quite a few of them had officers ranks, and Herr Baier had also reserved to himself the right, because of my civilian position, to make me the chief of the civilian department, he thought it appropriate that I become an officer prior to that. That was the reason.
Q. That leadership school, therefore, had nothing to do with training, the results of which you would later on use in your activity in Staff W?
A. Not at all.
Q. Witness, that particular leadership school, in Arolren, according to my knowledge was the school which used to be in Dachau before, and the man in charge was Baier?
A. Yes.
Q. Yat is the reason why I would like to avail myself of this opportunity and ask you to give me in a few brief terms what you were taught in that leadership school, what the subjects were.
A. I was there for a period of approximately, seven months. Approximately two-thirds of the time was used on military training, and one-third on administrative tasks, which were treasury balances, food supply, paymaster tasks, clothing, and similar questions.
Q. Were you also told anything during that course about the extermination of the Jews, in the concentration camps, etc.?
A. No. The concentration camp question was never mentioned, I am sure. The Jewish question might have been dealt with, generally speaking, but nothing was mentioned about the extermination of the Jews.
Q. I am very much interested in that, witness. The Jewish question was not dealt with as a subject?
A. No, not at all. Well, maybe once in a while they did discuss the Jewish problem and the Jewish question.
Q. Witness, from the middle of November, 1943, therefore, until you left for the Fuehrerschule, which was at Christmas of 1943 approximately, you were in Staff W?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you see there? Generally speaking, what did you do there?
A. My main task was to get used to my job, and to get insight in the Audits Department there, and to tell the defendant Baier what I thought about it. He did not know the work very well himself either, because the Auditing Department had been established only a short while before by him. Apart from that I also had two special tasks, together with Herr Baier, and I performed those special tasks.
Q. What special tasks were those, witness?
A. They both dealt with the German Experimental Station for food, GMBH, which was in Feldberg. The first experiment we had there was the breeding of mutton, which was being carried out be a certain man by the name of Strietzel in Hof, and we had to do auditing work there, and we wanted to examine the thing as to whether we should continue to support them in a momentary sense.
Then we had the other case where we had the preliminary discussions concerning the auditing work in the Experimental Station. A short auditing work resulted from this, a short audit of the organization of the bookkeeping department of that company.
Q. The most important part of that auditing work was that the finding out whether the production was being carried out in a correct manner?
A. No, the department of audits had nothing to do with that. The whole idea simply was to gain an insight into the status of the bookkeeping work of that company in order to think over the question and to decide if any auditing work was to be done then. All sorts of troubles resulted from this. We found out that the conditions were pretty bad in that sense, and we criticized it very severely in one of our reports. The commercial manager of that experimental station thereupon was transferred by Herr Pohl.
Q. What were you told at the time, Witness, what Staff W had to deal with?
A. Herr Baier told me that Staff W was put at the disposal of Herr Pohl in his capacity as chief of office of Staff W, was to support him and consult him in all sorts of questions of balance, taxation matters, and other legal questions.
Q. When after the training at the Leadership School you returned, you surely had the opportunity to look into the matter more deeply, didn't you? Please take a look at the chart which is on the wall there and tell me if that chart corresponds to a true picture of the organization of the WVHA?
A. The chart according to my opinion is not quite clear. It could be interpreted as if Amtsgruppe W, according to its rank were under the remaining Amtsgruppen, A, B, C, and D. That was not the case. Amtsgruppe W was approximately at the same level as all the remaining Amtsgruppen. Apart from that it could also be interpreted as if Staff W belonged to the administration of Amtsgruppe W in a way, namely that it was, so to say, superior agency of the W offices. That is not the case either. The W offices were subordinated directly to Pohl as Chief of Office W and Staff W was not the superior authority of those offices mentioned.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I would appreciate it if you would permit me to submit a simple sketch to the witness which was supposed to be entered into the document book. This is the only thing which I would like to introduce which is contained in that document book prior to introducing the document book itself. Unfortunately, no number was printed on the photostatic copy, no document number.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, this is a very primitive sketch I have here, and only for explanatory purposes, I would appreciate it if you would tell me in a very few brief terms if that sketch corresponds more to your opinion of Staff W, and possibly tell me in a few brief terms what the reason is for this being so.
A. According to my opinion this sketch shows the conditions much more clearly than the other chart. The individual amtsgruppe are all placed on the same level, and apart from that, Staff W is very clearly put next to the administration of Amtsgruppe W and not between Amtsgruppe W and the individual W offices.
Q. Witness, do you have anything else to say about this sketch?
A. No, it is correct in its broad outlines.
Q. What was it that Staff W was, was it an authority or was it an economic office?
A. It was an authority, which, however, without any exceptions, had to deal with economic matters only.
Q. In order not to bother with individual questions, Witness, I would appreciate it if you would give me a somewhat brief description of the activity of Staff W and Amtsgruppe W?
A. The main activity and the main purpose of Amtsgruppe W consisted of the following: to take care of economic enterprises. The idea also was that Amtsgruppe W was an official office, an agency office under Army administration, whereas the economic enterprises were more of enterprises according to the German commercial law. Therefore, economically and legally they were independent enterprises, with their own legal aspects and their own organs as prescribed by the law, which were fully responsible for all measures which were being dealt with within the enterprises.
It is thus that all the companies had their conferences of the partners, their members of the board of supervisors, their procurists, and managers, and were, therefore, bodies like any other German commercial enterprise in Germany which were fully responsible for the legal activities in that company from a civilian commercial point of view. Opposed to that the Amtsgruppe W had nothing to do directly with the measures within the enterprise itself. It was not competent for that. It only had certain possibilities of raising objections in it supervisory capacity, which, however, could only be exercised on the organs which belonged to the company. However, the organization in the WVHA used to have a lot of people work in a double function, namely both as bodies of the economic enterprises and at the same time as members of the authority as such. That started with Herr Pohl. Herr Pohl was not only the Chief of the WVHA and also Chief of Amtsgruppe W, but at the same time he was the business manager of the German Economic Enterprises, G.m.b.H, in other words, of the holding company of the concern, and the same applied to several other office chiefs. They were not only business managers of the companies but also chiefs of W offices in that authority.
The regulation in the WVHA as such varies and deviates from the other normal conditions in Reich companies, for instance, in companies of the Reich Finance Ministry where such a personal contact between authority and economic tasks was not carried out. There also, for instance, the Reich Finance Ministry had members belonging to the authority enter the board of supervision, of companies. However, as soon as they were sent to the supervising body the officials would resign from their membership as an employee or then they would take leave. However, for the legal responsibility of the bodies of the DWB and their affiliated companies and for the tasks and measures of those enterprises this plays no part whatsoever.
The legal responsibility in any case was exclusively with the legal bodies prescribed by the law, the legal economic bodies prescribed by the law, and not with those persons as members or chiefs of offices of the authority.
Apart from that I can draw your attention to something which I deem important here. Herr Pohl had ordered that the chiefs of the offices, and also me personally, that on measures where they were considered bodies of the company of an official nature, they would not act as chiefs of offices individually, not with their official rank and not with their official position, and that they would not appear there as such or sign as such, but simply they would sign with their name and their capacity as legal bodies, that is business managers or others.
Q. Witness, could this be a camouflage maneuver by any chance? I would like to explain this more clearly. Did they want to camouflage the SS part of the enterprises toward the outside, or was the idea to explain the things as you did?