I thought it would be best not to take up the Court's time by trying to read everything that is in the affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I see no purpose in calling the witness in person and examining him at length and then putting in a two or three page affidavit covering the same ground.
MR. ROBBINS: I think there is some information here that wasn't covered in the examination. Dr. Heim said that he was going to offer the affidavit, and I was going on that assumption.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, I never said that I would submit that affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, counsel for the defense may have access to this affidavit if they wish for impeachment or for crossexamination. The witness can be recalled for that purpose if it appears that there is any ground for impeachment. Do you want to make any use of the affidavit, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: Just one more question then.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Is it true, witness, that in 1942 Dr. Hohberg told you about atrocities that were being committed in concentration camps?
Q Yes, I said so, he reported that to me.
Q What was the earliest date that he told you about these things? Was it as early as '41?
A Yes.
Q Was it as early as '40?
A No.
Q Sometime in '41?
A Yes, and I gave you the reason why it was in 1941. He -
Q I don't care for the reason. Do you remember about what month?
A No. It was before the Russian campaign.
MR. ROBBINS: That is all.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, this witness may be excused from the witness stand.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Who is your next witness, Dr. Heim?
(Witness excused)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. HEIM (Counsel for defendant Hohberg): May it please the Tribunal, I should now like to call the witness, Dr. Tenbergen, to the witness stand.
DR. HOFFMAN (Counsel for defendant Scheide): Mr. President, I object to the examination of that witness because provided there is an affidavit in the document book by that witness-
DR. HEIM: May it please the Court, I have not yet offered an affidavit by the witness Dr. Tenbergen. I shall, however, not offer that document which is part of Document Book 2 for the only reason that I wish to examine the witness in the witness stand here.
DR. HOFFMANN: That makes me very happy, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Marshal please bring the witness, Albert Tenbergen, to the stand while the Court is in recess?
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HEINRICH ALBERT TENBERGEN, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, you will raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HEIM (Attorney for the Defendant Hohberg):
Q Witness, please give us your full name.
A Dr. Heinrich Albert Tenbergen. Albert is my first name.
DR. HEIM: May it please your Honors, his name is not contained on the list, due to a mistake which is not on my part.
Q (By Dr. Heim) When and where were you born, Witness?
A I was born on the 9th of June, 1906, in Oberhausen on the Rhine-Land.
Q What is your address at the moment?
A Recklinghausen, Westphalia Elperweg, 19.
Q What profession do you have?
A I am selling books and magazines.
Q How long have you known Dr. Hohberg?
A I have known Dr. Hohberg for approximately 25 years.
Q Where did you meet Dr. Hohberg?
A I met Dr. Hohberg as a result of the fact that we belonged to the same youth organization. This might have been between the years 1922 and 1925. It was during the time when Dr. Hohberg graduated. That youth organization was called B.K. in Germany which meant "Bible Circle", Biblekreis. It was a Christian Protestant organization. My parents at that time lived in Dortmund. Then they moved to Recklinghausen. I myself was a member of that organization in Dortmund and in the Reckling Court No. II, Cnse No. 4.hausen organization I met the defendant Dr. Hans Hohberg.
Together in this youth organization, we visited the so-called summer vacation camps. We also participated in evening meetings and I also recall that amongst other things we went to the camps in outside places, Schleswig-Holstein, near Gusen, a camp which was in Westphalia near Siegen, and also we were in the large sanatorium near Bielefeld in Bethel where Parson Bodenschwing was organizing all epileptics into one organization, so that they could support themselves there. If I understood your question correctly, I am to tell you about the contacts which I had with Dr. Hohberg and what my relationship was to him.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Yes, that was it.
A Very well. I became more closely acquainted with Dr. Hohberg and I was in his home very frequently. His father was a parson, and the membership in that organization which I just described as BK, Bibelkreis, was the thing that brought us together. At the time already we discussed the various things and questions interesting to both of us, and particularly since we belonged to the same youth organization, we also had discussions about other youth organizations which existed at the time. That was the so-called "Jungdeutscher Orden", usually abbreviated as "Jung-Do". There was at the same time a youth organization which was called the Werwolf. This organization had nothing to do with an organization of the same title which played a part during the latter time of the war. These organizations had been created by the so-called Munich trial, where Adolf Hitler was tried at the time. We were under the impression that youth organization which I just mentioned in contrast to our Christian organization had nationalist tendencies. I know that we discussed quite frequently whether participation in such an organization would be of any use to us or whether on the basis of our previous activity, and our membership in the BK, we should join such an organization. Both of us did not do it. When Dr. Hohberg matriculated and went to the university, we also discussed quite openly by correspondence these problems, as a short while later on he informed me that in the university, which I think was the University of Cologne however I may be wrong - where he studied his first semester, he had joined a Christian student organization known as the "Wingolf". I believe I have answered your question.
Q Do you also know the political attitude of Dr. Hohberg from 1933 to 1940?
A I believe that the political attitude of Dr. Hohberg from 1933 to 1945, is well-known to me, because throughout these years I came to Berlin frequently, and I knew these Berlin Publishing firms due to my profession. I don't believe that it ever happened that I failed to visit Dr. Hohberg in Berlin while I was there. I was in Berlin alone on a few Court No. II, Case No. 4.occasions, and sometimes again I was there with my father, and with my collaborators.
On such occasions I used to live in the Hotel Bristol. However, when I was there alone I would also spend some of my time there with Dr. Hohberg, in his house, so that really I believe I knew something about his attitude at the time. The conversations which we had with each other most of the time referred to our personal well-being during the time we had not seen each other, and also to our progress and to the changed political situation in Germany, and I had quite a few discussions about it with Dr. Hohberg.
Q What attitude did Dr. Hohberg convey to you?
A Dr. Hohberg told me, it must have been in the winter of 19331934, that he had to orient himself about the conditions and the situation which had changed. I had told him at the time that in my profession a change in the organizational sense was planned, because due to the Reich Chamber of Culture Laws which was issued in 1933, we had to join the Reich Chamber of Culture since I was a publisher and book-salesman. In this connection, Dr. Hohberg said that something similar was being planned for the auditing profession because now all of a sudden he could not circumvent the fact that he had to belong to the National Socialist League of Attorneys. I can recall very well, however, that in the winter of 1933/1934 I met him in Berlin, and that he told me on that occasion: "Tonight I have no time for you because I have an appointment with a man whom I have to ask all sorts of questions about what will happen to our profession in the future." I told him that I was very sorry about it, because I would not spend much time there. "No time," he said. I said, "If you don't mind, may I perhaps do it in the following manner. I can come along with you and I can sit with you, and at least tonight we can be together," and Herr Dr. Hohberg agreed to that. That evening we met in some restaurant, the name of it I cannot recall at the moment, in Berlin, and in Dr. Hohberg's presence at the time I met a man by the name of Dr. Pfeiffer, who, if I can recall correctly, was the adjutant of former Reich Minister of Justice Frank. Dr. Hohberg had told me that this man probably was the right person, because he, Dr. Hohberg, could Court No. II, Case No. 4.obtain the necessary information from him about potential changes in the auditing profession.
The entire evening was taken up with questions which Dr. Hohberg asked of Dr. Pfeiffer, and from which I had to understand that he wanted to sound out Dr. Pfeiffer.
Q Did the defendant Dr. Hohberg later on have any further contact with Dr. Pfeiffer?
A I can not tell you for sure. I can recall, however, that when I was in Berlin again, approximately a year later, I asked him again about Dr. Pfeiffer, and I believe I asked him, "Will you kindly tell me, Hansie, what you found out on the occasion at the time." Whereupon, Dr. Hohberg answered me, "Nothing came out of it. I found out nothing. These people are not quite my type. I simply wanted to know something about the changed situation, and I have to do that all the time, because of my profession as an auditor. New laws will be issued in the coming months," and at the time we spoke about the Reconversion Law according to which the GMBH was to be changed into a Kommanditgesellschaft, because one of the business partners of the Kommanditgesellschaft had a personal liability with regard to the capital which he had invested. That was the problem which had been going on.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, this has been going on now for ten minutes, and we have not even approached what Dr. Hohberg said about his political attitude. Now if the witness can not answer the question without writing a book, you had better ask him particular questions.
DR. HEIM: Yes, your Honor.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, what was discussed at the time in your presence between Dr. Hohberg and Dr. Pfeiffer?
A I can not tell you that in detail, because they spoke mostly about legal matters.
Q Will you describe to the Tribunal the political attitude of Dr. Hohberg from 1933 to 1940, just as you described it and as you were able to observe it on the basis of your acquaintance with Dr. Hohberg during that time?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
I asked Dr. Hohberg quite frequently whether he had joined the Party, or whether he intended to join the Party, and Dr. Hohberg repeatedly answered me, that he would never join the Party, that he would never join any of the affiliated organizations and, of course, that he would never accept an honorary title or position in the Party. I knew Dr. Hohberg as a man who was opposed to the ideology of the NSDAP.
Q Do you know whether Dr. Hohberg for a certain period of time during the war was an auditor of the DWB?
A Yes, I know that because in 1943 I visited Dr. Hohberg in Berlin on one occasion; at that time I was a soldier, and I had been assigned to the anti-aircraft school at Stolpmuenden near Berlin, which was the reason for my passing through Berlin.
THE PRESIDENT: The answer was complete when he said, yes; the first word answered your question. Whether he went ever to an anti-aircraft school does not interest us at all. Ask him another question. Maybe you can persuade him to just answer your questions, I can not.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, when you visited Dr. Hohberg in 1943 in Berlin, did he tell you anything about his position as an auditor in the DWB?
A Yes. I asked Dr. Hohberg what he was doing in 1943, and he told me that he was still a professional auditor. He also told me that he was an auditor with the DWB but that he did not hold the status of an employee there.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg at the time tell you in detail what activity he carried out there as an auditor of the DWB?
A Dr. Hohberg also informed me about that, because I asked him about it. He told me: "My activity is to audit the enterprises which are affiliated with the DWB, and to supervise them in taxation matters.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you whether he was independent, or whether he was dependent on somebody else for orders in his work?
A Dr. Hohberg told me that he was independent, because I asked Court No. II, Case No. 4.on that occasion if his job as an auditor was a dependent one, and he answered me, "No, I am still an independent auditor."
Q Did Dr. Hohberg during the time when he was an auditor with the DWB, tell you about his political attitude?
A Yes. His political attitude in 1943 for the conditions at the time was so monstrous, so destructive, that I was very much worried about Dr. Hohberg, whom I had known for a long time.
Q Witness, why were you worried about him?
A He expressed himself in a derogatory manner about the higher leadership, and in particular about the SS leadership, and approximately in August 1943, he told me that the higher SS leadership, amongst other things, was supplying itself with all sorts of post exchange articles and food, while the population could not get it at the time. He even made the statement while in Berlin we had some lunch in a restaurant, where strangers were sitting at our table, and I was afraid that such a statement could possibly be made in the presence of strangers who were right next to us, because the situation at the time was such that if someone really complained by making derogatory remarks about the higher leadership then he was in danger of being arrested from one day to the next. I myself was wearing the uniform, and I was afraid for myself, too.
Q Herr Dr. Tenbergen, didn't you ever ask Dr. Hohberg how he got his job as an auditor with his anti-fascist attitude?
A No, I never asked Dr. Hohberg about that. I never asked him how he got the job, but I want to answer your question in the following manner: If you will permit. I knew in Berlin another gentleman, his name was Weissenfels, Willi Weissenfels. I asked that man how Dr. Hohberg got his job. Thereupon Weissenfels, who happened to live in the same house where Dr. Hohberg was living, told me that Dr. Hohberg had accepted the job as an auditor because it fitted right into his profession as an auditor. After all, it wasn't important whether a particular organization was to be audited by him.
Q When did you visit Dr. Hohberg in Berlin?
A May I ask you, are you talking about 1943?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Yes, from 1940 to 1943.
A I shall have to correct myself here. From 1940 to 1943 I was not in Berlin, but I was in Berlin only in the year 1943. In the meantime I was a soldier. I visited Dr. Hohberg only in 1943 in Berlin, that was in his apartment at Darmstedterstrasse, No. 2.
Q Do you know whether, and if so, where Dr. Hohberg's office was?
A Dr. Hohberg's office according to my knowledge was at Darmstaedterstrasse, No. 2, because in his office I used to wait quite frequently. If I remember correctly, I believe when you entered the ante-room there was a nameplate on his door on the righthand side, and it said, "Dr. Hohberg, Auditor." I was there on several occasions, and we discussed all sorts of things.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you anything about inhumane conditions in the concentration camps?
A Yes, Dr. Hohberg informed me about inhumane conditions in the concentration camps, and he informed me of that when in the morning we were walking through the streets of Berlin. I remember his first remark because I said, "Hansie, why do you tell me about all those things?" At first he did not answer me, and then I asked him again, and I said, "What am I to think about it, can I do anything about it?" and he answered me, "Well, why do you think I am telling you all these things for."
Q Did Dr. Hohberg at any time give you any figures about the DWB concern?
A Yes, Dr. Hohberg showed me figures about the DWB.
Q Can you still remember what was contained in those papers?
A No, I can not remember that, and I can tell you positively that he showed me the accounts including figures and so forth. Dr. Hohberg told me when he took these accounts out of his desk, "Look at this spot," he said, "Look at this embezzlement here," and he showed me a very big figure, but I can not recall how much it was. Whereupon I asked him, "Yes, but as an auditor you can refuse to certify to that account and balance." Dr. Hohberg then told me, "I haven't done it and Court No II, Case No. 4.I can't do it, and that is why a lot of people are hostile toward me."
Q Did Dr. Hohberg show you any photostatic copies of documents concerning the DWB and the WVHA?
A Dr. Hohberg showed me photostatic copies, and I can recall the fact very well because at the time I could not see why Dr. Hohberg was doing this all of a sudden. After all we were engaged in a war, and I did not think about such things. He also told me that he was collecting all of this material and that he was putting it in a safe, in a bank in Berlin, and he informed me about that on several occasions when I was in his ante-room.
Q Where were these documents kept at the time he informed you of these facts?
A When Dr. Hohberg showed them to me, he took them out of a drawer of his desk.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you why he kept this material in his private office at Darmstaedterstrasse?
A Dr. Hohberg said the following at the time: "What is going on here can not result in any good, but you can believe me that I have taken all the necessary measures in case I should ever be held responsible for this."
Q Did Dr. Hohberg tell you anything about his position with regard to the SS leaders of the DWB or the WVHA?
A I don't know how I am to understand this question. Please repeat the question.
Q Do you know whether the SS leaders in the WVHA or the DWB respectively were opposed to Dr. Hohberg?
A Yes, according to what Dr. Hohberg told me. Dr. Hohberg made a very depressed impression on me at the time, and he told me that the leaders of the DWB were spying on him, and if I can use this expression that the whole idea was to knock him off. He told me the reasons were that he was neither a member of the Party nor of the SS and that the higher SS leaders considered him to be an outsider. I was under the impression at the time, in 1943, that Dr. Hohberg was really glad to be Court No. II, Case No. 4.able to leave the DWB by being conscripted into the Wehrmacht.
Q Did Dr. Hohberg ever tell you anything about his intentions to transfer the DWB concern to the Reich?
A During that time we did a lot of talking, and I really could not tell you in detail what Dr. Hohberg said, but the idea was undoubtedly the following: Dr. Hohberg thought that the economic situation of the DWB would only be brought into a normal condition again if the Reich would hold the majority of the shares. I was under the impression that Dr. Hohberg's policy was to reach that aim.
Q Did you meet another collaborator in the DWB at the office of Dr. Hohberg?
A I believe that I met a collaborator of the DWB on one or two occasions. I believe his name was Dr. May. He was at Dr. Hohberg's place at the same evening when I was there, too.
Q Were you together with Dr. Hohberg and Dr. May for any length of time?
A I believe I have already stated that I only remained in Berlin for one night, and I visited Dr. Hohberg on that night, and we sat together all night long until morning, and we spoke about all sorts of things, and discussed a lot of questions. Later on after I returned from my assignment, I came back to Berlin again and contrary to my travel orders, I spent the night there. The reason was that what Dr. Hohberg had told me had impressed me in such a manner that I wanted to hear more about it. I was in Berlin on yet another day, and then returned on the following morning.
Q During this discussion, did you also discuss political matters?
A Yes, we almost exclusively discussed political matters, and Dr. Hohberg told me that the war was lost. I told him that this was absolutely impossible, because our armies were still in Russian, and we still held the entire Atlantic Coast. Even if we had lost a little bit of the foreign land here and there, this did not mean very much, because luck always changed during wartime. Then Dr. Hohberg drew my attention to economic matters which at the time created the first doubts in my mind Court No. II, Case No. 4.whether we could win the war in spite of the shortage of materials and in spite of the fact that we were unable to send the necessary supplies to the front.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Hein, the Presiding Judge indicated to you this morning that you should ask questions of the witness and not give him free reign. That is the way you should conduct the examination, it seems to me. You put a general question, and he goes on interminably. Now, if you just keep after him, question after question, you can hold him in line, BY DR. HEIM:
Q: Witness, I asked you whether at the time the discussion dealt with political questions, and you answered yes?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you now tell us in more detail about the discussion at the time as far as the discussion was of a political nature?
A: In the answer which I just gave you I told you of a political attitude, according to my opinion, because after all if we speak about the war this is closely connected with politics, and if Dr. Hohberg thought that the war was lost, by that I meant to say that he made me stop and think about my political attitude, insofar as he did speak about politics.
Q: Did Dr. Hohberg convince you at that time that the war was lost for Germany?
A: I would like to say that he convinced me of it.
Q: Did Dr. Hohberg also say something against the National Socialist ideology and did he make any comment about that?
A: Yes, even that happened.
Q: Can you give us more details about that point? I could not repeat literally what we spoke about because we spoke of quite a lot, but I know that Dr. Hohberg at all times was opposed to the National-Socialist leadership.
I had to recognize that at the time. Of course, I had known Dr. Hohberg for quite a while, and I deduced that he knew all that from his experiences.
Q: During those conversations did you have the impression that Dr. Hohberg was an anti-Fascist?
A: Yes, I did have this impression absolutely.
Q: Can you tell us the reasons why you reached that conclusion?
A: The reasons were that Dr. Hohberg did not like the position he held at the time, and he told me at the time literally that he wanted to get out of that organization. That was a term which he used repeatedly on that occasion.
Q: On one of those occasions did you at any time discuss with Dr. Hohberg the idea of joining some organization which was opposed to the Party?
A: According to my recollection, that word was not used, but I do believe that Dr. Hohberg tried to collaborate with these people and that he was looking for circles which were opposed to the Party.
Q: Do you know if he found such circles?
A: I thought that Dr. May was a member of such a circle.
Q: Why did you think so?
A: I met Dr. May on two occasions at Dr. Hohberg's house. He told me about his own life and about his fate, and Dr. May maintained the same ideas as Dr. Hohberg. He was also opposed to the Party, the waging of war, and against the excesses as such.
Q: Can you tell us more details about that discussion between Hohberg and May?
A: The discussion between Hohberg and May, in detail, dealt with economic things. Dr. May, when I met him, was the owner of several factories. I believe that they were furniture factories. Dr. Hohberg spoke a lot with Dr. May about these enterprises. At that time it was also mentioned that Dr. May had lost some factory. I don't remember the name of the factory any more. The factory was taken away from him because of his political attitude. I did not know the circumstances in detail. I was just a witness of the conversation because I happened to be present.
Q: Did these anti-Fascist discussions which you had with Dr. Hohberg have any influence on you?
A: Yes. At the time I was in a conflict with my own conscience. As you probably know, we as soldiers in the war had the duty to fight against people who were trying to undermine the morale of the armed forces. At that time, practically speaking, I should have informed the counter-intelligence officer of the particular until to which I was assigned. However, I did not do it because of the conflict between my sense of duty and my conscience because I told myself: "Whatever Dr. Hohberg is telling you cannot be untrue. It is bound to be true." I had known him for such a long time that I really did know what to believe and what not to. I thought a lot of him. In this conflict between duty and responsibility, I did not inform the counter-intelligence officer because I had to fear that Dr. Hohberg would incur difficulties as a result of his statement if he was not arrested right on the spot.
Q: Did you speak about the things which you had heard from Dr. Hohberg? Did you pass them on?
A: Yes, first of all, I had to do so when I was with my family on leave. I told them I had heard certain things from Dr. Hohberg, things which I thought to be incomprehensible, which appeared to be so untrue, so incredible, and so new to me that actually my attitude and my ideas had been severely shaken. I even spoke about those things to my comrades, when we discussed various happenings that occurred during the war.
Q: Did you find credence among all the people that you told these thing to?
A: No, I did not.
Q: What was the regular answer that you received?
A: Most of the time I was told that these things were probably exaggerated.
Q: Do you know by whom Dr. Hohberg had been informed about all the things that were unknown to the population?
A: No, I could not give you any names of the people who gave him that impression, but personally I was under the impression that he gained all that knowledge from his activity as an auditor.
Q: Do you know whether Dr. Hohberg made any derogatory remarks about Pohl to you?
A: Not only on one occasion, but repeatedly. I would not have noticed that because the name of Pohl did not seem familiar to me at the time, if he hadn't said the following: He spoke of General in the Waffen-SS with the character and the ability of a paymaster. That was the only thing that I recall. It stuck in my memory.
Q: Did Dr. Hohberg at anytime make any statement to you about the ethics of the SS?
A: Yes, but he did not make any statement about the ethics of the SS, but rather a statement which was directed against the ethics of the SS, particularly statements which were directed against the eugenics on the part of the SS.
Q: Witness, would you please speak a little bit slower? Do you still recall details about that?
A: May I ask you how you mean that question -- whether I knew details about the ethics of the SS or the eugenics of the SS?
Q: No, I want to know if you know details about the statements of Dr. Hohberg against the ethics and eugenics of the SS.
A: As far as the eugenics were concerned, Dr. Hohberg told me the following, in general: He told me that he had heard that German women had placed themselves at the disposal of the breeding experiments, so to speak of the SS, and that one woman for example had several children from several SS men. Dr. Hohberg used bitter, sarcastic terms in describing these things, particularly due to the fact that these children were living later on without the protection of their parents. I would like to stress and repeat the point that Dr. Hohberg in that connection old me again and again, "whatever is going on here cannot work out well."
Q: Dr. Tenbergen, if I understood you correctly so far, we could say -- to us Dr. Seidl's words -- that Dr. Hohberg was a "fanatic anti-Fascist"?
A: Yes, I can say, that, and through the impression which I gained in 1943 I can even say more. I thought that Dr. Hohberg was a revolutionist, a rebel, who was looking for circles that would possibly go along with him at a later date, because after all I couldn't understand why Dr. Hohberg had told me in particular such things in 1943.
Q: Witness, please speak slower for the translators. You told us that you are a bookseller. Were you that during the war also?
A: Yes, I sold books during the war also. My firm was administered by my sister while I was away.
Q: Was that sales store bombed out?
A: Yes, it was destroyed by bombs on several occasions.
Q: You surely tried to get other books?
A: Yes, I did. I tried to have these books replaced. I tried to contact the publishing firms in Vienna, because I was stationed there for a while.
Q: Did you also try on one occasion to receive books from the Nordland publishing firm?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you apply to Dr. Hohberg on one occasion with that request?
A: Yes, I did that in 1943. The situation was such that Dr. Hohberg at the time had told me that he knew a man by the name of Lindenbrinck who was sorting the deliveries of books and that maybe he would be able to get something through Herr Lindenbrinck, and I told him, "If you have such good contacts and connections, do try to get a few books from other publishing firms so that I can complete my stock." Thereupon Dr. Hohberg told me, "Practically speaking, I know of only one more publishing firm here, That is the Nordland publishing firm, but I can't very well recommend that publishing firm to you. I do not want to recommend that publishing firm to you." I recall that conversation very well, because we shared the same bedroom, and we spoke about these things across the beds, and Dr. Hohberg asked me at the time whether I was in financial distress and said that he would gladly help me, but a recommendation to the Nordland firm he simply did not want to give me under any circumstances.