Court No. II, Case No, 4.
THE PRESIDENT: This, of course, under rules of evidence as we know them, is objectionable as calling for a conclusion, not based upon the knowledge of the witness. I think this is the first instance where German counsel have made an objection which is recognizable in English and American law. It is very well stated and very well taken, and we will sustain it.
Q (By Mr. Robbins) Did you know during the war that people were placed in concentration camps upon protective custody orders without receiving a trial?
A No, I did not know anything about the method on which these people were turned into the concentration camps. I only saw the results.
Q Did you think that everyone who was in a concentration camp had been given a trial?
AAt the time if I had been asked I really could not have told anyone just what the procedure was.
Q I am just asking you if you thought at that time that everyone had received a trial, had been given a trial before a court of law who was in a camp?
A Mr. Robbins, to carry out an interrogation is very simple. One orders a man to report to some place; one charges him with something and first of all in the course of an investigation he is sent to a concentration camp. It is always easy to fix a charge, no matter if it is based on true facts or not. The same thing happened to Dr. May when he was sent to jail. First he was put into jail and then charges were raised against him.
Q Did you hear at any time that inmates in concentration camps had died from overwork or malnutrition?
A I cannot give you any authentic information. I never received any authentic information about that according to numbers. To what extent something like that was possible in the plants I can only judge on the basis of the plants which I visited. In this connection I can actually say with a good conscience that it was not possible that Court No. II, Case No. 4.these people were worked to death, unless they were maltreated by their guards at a time when this was impossible for an outsider to observe.
However, they were not killed from their work. In the stone processing plants themselves, I never have been nor in the granite quarries, and so on, and I would like to leave the judgment about that to someone who actually saw these plants in operation.
Q You cannot say then that inmates were worked to death in stone quarries, in carrying stones and processing stones?
A No. I only know from my memory, through one of my auditors who, however, did not see it himself, but somebody told it to him, that the following incident had occurred. He was told that the camp guards, just as a pasttime, had these people run back and forth with a big stone tied to their backs. As far as I know, however, this was in the spare time when the inmates were not working in the plant.
Q When did you hear about that; when was it supposed to have happened?
A That must have happened in 1940 or it must have been at the beginning of 1941, because several of my auditors were in Mauthausen or in Flossenbuerg.
Q Did you hear of any violence that the SS took, any violent measures that the SS took outside of the concentration camps against Jews?
A I only know what I saw myself at Berlin.
Q What did you see?
A I saw how these people were kicked out of their apartments, how they were put into trucks, and how they were deported.
Q Would you say that these facts were common knowledge in Berlin?
A The transport of the Jews everyone was able to see. After all, people would stand around the streets and watch these things every time it happened.
Q And when did this take place?
A I can't state it with one hundred percent certainty, but I Court No. II, Case No. 4.think it was early in 1943.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a recess, Mr. Robbins.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q You told us that you kept a list of the members of the circle of Himmler's friends, in connection with your activity with the Passmann circle. Is this the same circle as the Keppler circle, that is, the circle of Himmler's friends?
A I believe that there is a misunderstanding here. I did not keep a list. But I got a copy of the list of the circle of friends of the Reichsfuehrer Himmler. I got it from Pohl's anteroom. I copies it at home, and passed it on.
Q Is this Himmler circle the same as the so-called Keppler circle. Did you hear it referred to by that name?
A Yes, it is.
Q And these were the contributing members of the SS, the industrialists who contributed financial support to the SS, is that right?
A What they did? I don't know. They were Himmler's representatives in the economic life. The so-called contributing members of the SS is something quite different. You know the term, I believe.
Q Can't you tell from the names on the list that these were industrialists in Germany in the so-called Keppler or Himmler circle?
A They were bankers and industrialists mainly.
Q Do you recall the names of any of the leaders today?
A Do you wish me to give you the names now?
Q Yes, give me a few names?
A Goering's brother, Ritter, von Halt, Professor Meyer, Keppler, Pohl. I think there were about thirty, as I recall it.
Q Do you remember any other businessmen?
A Not at the moment.
Q Do you remember today anyone from the Dresdner Bank?
A Professor Meyer, I mentioned already.
Q Do you remember any one from I.G. Farben?
A I believe somebody was there but I don't know the name.
Q Do you remember any one from the Friedrich Flick Koncern?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I had heard that Otto Steinbrinck was a member. I did not know it at the time. I knew his name at the time, but I did not know he was a member of the circle. I learned that here.
Q And would you say that the financial support that these men contributed was substantial?
A The way the financial support was carried on, I don't know. Neither do I know what they discussed, but I know the fact that these people subordinated themselves to Himmler's aims by acting as his representatives, as it were, in the economic life.
Q Do you know what Pohl had to do with this, other than being a member of the circle? Did the WVHA handle any of the funds of the Keppler Circle?
A No. I know that Pohl frequently absented himself from the monthly meetings. I don't think that Pohl's connections were very close with that circle. A financial contact with the DWB concern did not exist, unless Professor Meyer in former time granted a considerable credit on association which was administered under the W-VIII.
Q Do you know whether or not Amtsgruppe-A handled any of these funds, either from the contributing members, or from the Keppler Circle?
A Office Group-A administered as a sideline funds of AllgemeineSS fund. As a result of this formerly when the moneys by the contributing members were still being paid, these moneys had to be paid in there, and were administered there, but so far as I know the contributions of those members ceased at the beginning of the war, so that when Office Group-A existed as an organization, no further contributions were probably received.
Q Do you know for certain that these contributions ceased at the beginning of the war?
A No, I only know these things from Frank, and perhaps it would be more advisable to ask Frank about these. knowledge is secondhand.
Q Do you remember any one from the Krupp Concern on this list that you obtained?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. HEIM: Dr. Heim for the Defendant Dr. Hohberg. May it please the Court, I object to this question on the grounds that neither the Krupp Concern nor the I.G. Farben is connected in the slightest degree with this trial, and it is completely immaterial whether a member of the Krupp Concern belonged to the Himmler Circle of friends.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please your Honors, it is relevant as to what this witness can remember that he saw on the list. That is whether or not he actually received the list.
THE PRESIDENT: What difference does it make whether he ever received the list or not in this case?
MR. BOBBINS: He has given this as an indication that he belonged to a resistance movement, and whether or not he received the list supports or detracts from that contention.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you are using this testimony to impeach his statement that he was opposed to National Socialism?
MR. BOBBINS: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And you are testing his statement that he did receive the list by asking him what it contained?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, your Honor. I might say this is the last question I have on that list, anyway.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Heim, will you withdraw your objection for one question?
DR. HEIM: No, if the Tribunal please, the witness has stated that he found a list with about thirty names on it. He also replied to the Prosecution's question, and gave the names which he could still remember; those are all the names which he could still remember, thereby, this testimony is complete so far as that goes, and other questions by the Prosecution are superfluous, because they cannot lead to any result.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Court will listen to the next question, and determine whether or not it is proper.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Do you recall, witness, having seen the name of any one connected with the Krupp organization on the list that you received?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT: You may answer that, yes or no?
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Turning to another subject, witness. Did you ever hear of a SS man bragging or boasting about the mistreatment of Jews or of concentration camp inmates?
A I am sorry. I did not quite understand the question.
Q Did you ever hear of a SS man bragging or boasting of the mistreatment of Jews or concentration camp inmates?
A Yes.
Q Will you tell us about that, please?
A I don't recall details. I only know that on some occasions I would hear that the guards in the camps treated the inmates inhumanely.
Q And my question is, did you hear that SS men boasted or bragged about the mistreatment which the inmates and Jews received?
Did you get the translation of "bragged" and "boasted"?
THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid the translation did not go through.
THE INTERPRETER: The translation came through. She translated the term all right, but channel three is dead.
Q. Let me repeat my question, witness. Did you hear of SS men bragging or boasting of the mistreatment of inmates in concentration camps?
A. No, I did not hear that anybody boasted or bragged about it, but I heard the facts.
Q. Let me refresh your recollection. Do you know the SS man Mowinkel, who was in charge of a DAW plant in Platjowa?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall having seen him mistreat inmates?
A. What he did was to take a piece of wood from a fence and hit a Jewish inmate on the head. That wasn't really mistreating him.
Q. What would you call it?
A. I told him that I believed this man was crazy.
Q. And did not Mowinkel say to you, "I am proud to be unjust"?
A. Yes, verbatim. We asked him, "What do you think you are doing hitting that fellow on the head?"
Q. What did he say?
A. And he said, "I am proud to be unjust." We were of the opinion that he was an adolescent. He walked through the yard of the factory and just hit people on the head, but lightly, not very heavily. It was not a mistreatment, but it was strange.
Q. Did you hear any other SS man make statements like that, "I am proud to be unjust"?, or "I am proud of the treatment we give the inmates"?
A. No. I never heard anything else. It was my impression that Mowinkel was unbalanced and not normal because a normal man would not do a thing like that, but I would like to emphasize that he did not hit people severely; he just walked past them and hit them, out of pure fun.
Q. And you think that his treatment of inmates was not typical of the SS?
A. No, I don't think you could call that typical. It was entirely connected with the somewhat strange character of this SS man.
Q. And this particular case where you say you saw him take a fence post -- Is that what you said? -- and hit an inmate on the head with the board or with the post, you say you would not call that mistreatment?
A. He took this piece of fence, and he had that always in his hand when he walked around, when he walked across the yard. It was not mistreatment because the Jews laughed about that.
Q. You did not see him hit any one very hard?
A. No, he never hit hard, but I, of course, remembered the remark because it shows that this man was not normal.
Q. He thought that by just going a round tapping the inmates he was being unjust? And he said he was proud of it?
A. I don't know what he meant by that, but both Dr. May and I just shook our heads.
Q. Well, you told us that you had heard from authentic sources that guards in concentration camps did mistreat inmates. What kind of treatment did you hear that the inmates received from the camp guards?
A. I heard mainly that they were being hit by the guards.
Q. Just lightly or severely?
A. I only heard about this.
Q. Did you hear that they were wounded, that they were hit severely?
A. No.
Q. You did not hear any details?
A. I certainly heard many other details, which I no longer recall. I was most interested in those things, and I always investigated them, but the details I no longer recall today, unfortunately, but I would like, in order to defend the works managers, to say that I had the opportunity in Berlin now and then to talk to a works manager and that they were opposed to this just as much as I was, but I only met very few works managers.
Q. Did you hear at any time that prisoners of war were incarcerated in the concentration camps?
A. Yes. That became clear from the fact alone that when I saw this long column of women outside of the Auschwitz concentration camp, they were wearing Russian uniforms. I asked a man, who was standing around there what those uniforms were and he told me they were Russian uniforms, from which I concluded that Russian prisoners of war must have been around in this neighborhood at least. In how far Russian prisoners of war were actually in concentration camps, I don't know.
Q. Now, one last question on this: Have you told us about all of the instances that you saw or heard of mistreatment of concentration camp inmates or mistreatment of Jews, Jews either inside or outside of the camps?
A. You are asking whether I have told you everything?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I have seen a great many more things, but it's no use --
Q. Would you tell us about that , please?
A. During that long period of time of three years one would hear now and then that mistreatment occurred in concentration camps and was done by the guards, including those which had fatal results. I know the latter for certain from the time when I was staying in Lemberg.
Q. What did you learn at Lemberg?
A. I know that they had Ukrainian guards there who, as I was told, had killed inmates by beating them to death.
Q. And have you told us all that you learned about the mistreatment of Jews outside of concentration camps? That is, mistreatment by the SS. Let us confine ourselves to mistreatments by the SS.
A. I don't recall at this moment any small incidents or details.
Q. Do you remember any instances of mistreatment by the SS of of Poles or any other non-German nationals?
A. I scarcely believe that the guards made any difference between members of this or that nationality, but I am not quite sure, nor can I say anything from my own knowledge.
Q: About the treatment outside of the camps, did you hear anything about that? Mistreatment of Poles or other non-German nationals by the SS?
A: No. Not outside the camps.
Q: Did you learn at any time of property in the occupied territories being confiscated by the SS through the WVHA-- other than what you have already told us about? You told us about several instances. Are there any other instances?
A: That was the action which was to take place at Warsaw in the factories which were standing empty. That was a task which the OSTI was to take over.
Q: Well, we have talked about that. Other than the Warsaw action. Did you hear of any other confiscations, in the occupied territories, that were handled by the WVHA? That is, where the property went to the WVHA?
A: Other than what I have seen in the documents, no, Mr. Robbins.
Q: You told us that it was Salpeter's idea that the purpose of the SS industries was the employment and even the punishment of concentration camp inmates. Do you know of any one other than Salpeter in the SS who had that same idea?
A: Mr. Robbins, I believe that Salpeter was quite uniques in this opinion. It would have bean going too far for me to say that Maurer was of a similar opinion, but from the fact that Maurer and Salpeter were close friends I deduce that, and it was one of my main tasks, as I regarded them from an ethical point of view, to see to it that those two men who, in my opinion, saw the aims of those enterprises in a very different light than Pohl or Mummenthey or myself should be eliminated as quickly as possible, and I am still glad that it was possible to have both replaced by others of whom I was firmly convinced that at least they were thinking socially, who were, in this case, Mummenthey and Dr. May.
Q: Didn't you see the letter, the order that Pohl gave that said work in the concentration camps will be, in a true sense of the word, exhaustive, and that there will be no limit to working hours?
A: It is possible that I saw that, but not consciously. I cannot recall it today. It is quite possible. I do not know whether it reached our office or not. I believe the order went directly to the Works because anything that would normally be connected with inmate questions did not concern the Taxation Department. It was nothing for us as -
Q: It concerned Amtsgruppe W and it concerned the industries of the SS?
A: But when something was written for Office Group W, it did not always roach the DWB, because Pohl was Office Chief of Office Group W and had his own records there, and his own filing system. Pohl only passed things on to the DWB if he knew that they had to interest themselves in this on the basis of their activity.
Q: Turning to another subject. You said that -- I believe it was yesterday -- you could not remember whether or not you had heard of Himmler's Posen speech before you saw it in the documents here. Are you certain that you never heard of that speech before you came here? Isn't that something that you would have remembered?
A: I cannot remember the Posen speech from the time when I was the auditor for the DWB, because as far as I know it had not been hold then. Therefore, it would have had to reach me later on.
Whether that was the case or not I really don't know any more. What must have happened was that some SS Fuehrer told me something about it, perhaps.
Q: You didn't learn about it in your activity in the underground?
A: If you want to reach a judgment of my activities in the underground you must imagine that I was the one who communicated these things to the people concerned. Not vice-versa. Whatever happened in the negative sense from the SS sector I passed on.
Q: Didn't the underground ever pass anything on to you? Didn't you ever learn anything from members of this so-called "Passmann" circle?
A: No. What they know they had learned from me.
Q: And you didn't hear anything from them?
A: Not from those people, certainly not. They only heard from me.
Q: And you cannot remember whether or not you heard of this speech subsequent to 30 June 1943?
A: I cannot recall that. It might be possible, but I no longer remember.
Q: Wouldn't a speech like this make an indellible impression on you, or had you heard of many other utterances similar to this?
A: No, it did not make an indellible impression on me for the simple reason that I believed that at that time I know what Himmler was thinking any way.
Q: Have you heard of other speeches similar to this that Himmler had made?
A: Yes, I read here that in Cracow he made a similar speech. I saw that in one of the documents.
Q: I think that was about June 1943. Did you hear of that at the time, subsequently?
A: I heard that here, because had I heard it at the time I would certainly have used it enthusiastically and seen to it that people would hear about it, who were interested in it negatively, so to speak.
Q: I am trying to understand why it is that such a speech as the Posen-speech would not have made an indellible impression on you, and I ask you... is it because you had heard of other speeches similar to this at the time, that you knew about it well?
A: No, I knew nothing of other speeches but I knew what was happening in Auschwitz and the speech just said the same things. For that reason I am saying that it did not make an indellible impression on me. The indellible impression was already existing within me.
Q: You say you learned what was happening at Auschwitz. What did you learn, and at what time did you learn about it?
A: Of the gassing I heard roughly at the beginning of 1943.
Q: And you heard that Jews were being gassed?
A: Yes.
Q: And that these were people who were taken from the Warsaw Ghetto?
A: No, where they came from I didn't know. I only knew the fact as such. I also heard that Gypsies were being gassed.
Q: So when you heard about the speech it didn't surprise you any?
A: It is my conviction that I have seen the speech here for the first time, and it no longer surprised me because I knew these things.
Q: Well, witness, were you a member of Lebensborn?
A: No.
Q: On several occasions you proposed that the profits from the SS industries would go to the Lebensborn, did you not?
A: No, I don't believe I made the suggestions. I think I simply put things on record. The suggestion was being discussed and put down in the record.
Q: Didn't you write to Pohl that the profits from the industries should go to the Lebensborn; didn't you make that proposal to Pohl?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know that one of the functions of Lebensborn was the kidnapping of children of foreign nationals in order to select for Germanization those who were considered of racial value? Didn't you know that was one of the objectives of Lebensborn?
A: Mr. Robbins, when I was an auditor of the DWB it was not the aim of the Lebensborn. Perhaps it came up later on, but I can hardly imagine that was part of their program. Also, I would like to point out, if I may, that I attempted to say in my direct examination that the transfer of wages of inmates to the Lebensborn was pure bluff. According to the taxation regulations nothing was left over, and I would like to prove that to you, Mr. Robbins, by a taxation expert. My sole aim when I made this vain suggestion was to see to it that at last normal wages should be paid for work done by inmates.
Q: And when you made these suggestions you didn't expect the proposal to be adopted?
A: It was an attempt to test Pohl's reaction. Nobody had reacted up to then to the idea of increasing the wages and I therefore availed myself of this strange method.
I would also like to say this, Mr. Robbins. The prosecution has all the correspondence of the DWB. Don't you think that it is possible, in the course of three years, that one writes a letter which one would not write on the next day, because no one is always equally well disposed in the course done thousand days.
Q: So now you say it may have been that at one time you meant the proposal seriously, and at a later time you were considering it just as a bluff?
A: No, it isn't like that, that I took it seriously. But the effect of the suggestion to Pohl I would have judged differently on another day, perhaps, and would have said from the beginning that Pohl cannot be deceived in that manner, nor was he deceived, but he threw it into the waste paper basket.
Q: Passing on to another subject, how many meetings, witness, of the SA did you attend?
A I believe three or four.
Q That is all?
A That is all, yes.
Q During what period of time was that?
A That must have been, I believe, in June and July 1933.
Q Did you ever attend any meetings of the NSDAP?
A Yes, before the seizure of power.
Q And how many meetings did you attend?
A I was a student at the time. As a student, of course, you are very interested in political events, and for that reason we went, as much as we had time, to all meetings, Communist meetings, Socialist meetings, State Party meetings, and to those of the NSDAP. When you study, after all you are still in development, and you are much more impressionable.
Q And: is it your testimony that at no time did you join the NSDAP?
A Nor did I even make an application at any time myself. The only application made on my behalf was done without my knowledge by the Reich Finance Administration with the aim of taking me over as a Regierungsrat, a government councillor. I knew nothing about this. I was asked to come and see an Ortsgruppe, but I refused to collaborate and I was turned away with rude words. That was my only contact with the NSDAP.
Q You mean you were never a member of any affiliated organizations, I was not a member. I was a member of what was known as Group B of the National Socialist Lawyers' League. "B" was for nonparty members, and the reason for that was I was not allowed to apply for auditors' examination, without being a member of the league of lawyers. Also I was a member of the NSV, and I would pay my regular nickel there, but these are not formations, but rather simply affiliated organizations.
Q You were a member then of the National Socialist Attorneys' Association and of the National Socialist Welfare Organization?
A Yes, quite.
Q It was then the first part of June, 1942, was it not, that you visited Auschwitz, Lemberg, Lublin and Posen?
A Quite right, the first part of June, 1942.
Q And then later in 1943 you participated in a conference with Loerner, Pohl, Horn and Volk about the incorporation of these plants located in the east into the WVHA and into the Osti?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember what month that was in 1943?
A Yes, I recall the month. It was in January.
Q And at that time the removal of the Jews from the ghetto was discussed, was it not?
A No, not really. What was discussed were the three purposes of the Osti...
Q And one of the three purposes was to accomplish Himmler's aim of removal of the Jews, is that right?
A No, it is not right in that form. Pohl declared that Himmler had objected to a number of Germans living in the Warsaw ghetto using enterprises where Jews worked to become rich. Pohl declared Himmler had suggested or ordered to have some of these enterprises in the Government General reopened, and there, for the first time, I heard the name "Poniatowa". The intention must have existed to have some enterprises taken away from that part of Warsaw, to Poniatowa, but this was not a matter of resettling the Jews, but merely to use these enterprises and the Jewish labor.
Q You have seen from the documents that all of the Jewish labor disappeared and that the plants had to be closed, that these Jews were actually gassed, as you said you learned in Auschwitz. And didn't you know at the time that was happening? You said you found out early in 1943. Didn't you know that at the time this conference took place?
A Mr. Robbins, by Pohl's hint I had to reach the very opposite conclusion. If people are to be used in a factory I cannot possibly conceive the idea that they are to be gassed. Exactly the opposite would be true.
Q At the same time Himmler said that he objected to the utilization of the Jews. He ordered that they be removed from the factories. You told us about that yourself.
A Yes, but at the same time the purpose of this transfer of enterprises from Warsaw to the Osti must have been something else, and I have seen from the documents that actually the position was that utilization of the Osti later on, when the Jewish inmates had been taken away, became quite impossible, and these Jews were killed apparently at Himmler's orders; but their killing cannot have been the primary intention because otherwise there would have been no point in establishing these enterprises.
Q Let me ask you this, at the time that you participated in this conference about Osti, did you already know at that time that Jews were being gassed in Auschwitz?
A Yes.
Q And you told us that you knew that the property of the Jews was being confiscated, and you also said that you knew that the Reinhardt Fund came from the east, and that all this happened about the same time. Frank told you that the Reinhardt Fund came from the east. Didn't it ever occur to you to put these facts together and draw the obvious conclusion that the Reinhardt Fund represented moneys which came from the Warsaw actions?
A That was quite impossible. In order to exonerate one man who has acquired a bad name, I suppose I would like to say this. Globocnik was well known for the fact that he wasn't a nice man. The fact alone that he had Dr. Horn as his co-manager showed that as far as Dr. Horn could do that, the treatment of the Jews should have been decent, because Dr. Horn, as far as I recall, was an honorable man.