A. I scarcely believe that the guards made any difference between members of this or that nationality, but I am not quite sure, nor can I say anything from my own knowledge.
Q: About the treatment outside of the camps, did you hear anything about that? Mistreatment of Poles or other non-German nationals by the SS?
A: No. Not outside the camps.
Q: Did you learn at any time of property in the occupied territories being confiscated by the SS through the WVHA-- other than what you have already told us about? You told us about several instances. Are there any other instances?
A: That was the action which was to take place at Warsaw in the factories which were standing empty. That was a task which the OSTI was to take over.
Q: Well, we have talked about that. Other than the Warsaw action. Did you hear of any other confiscations, in the occupied territories, that were handled by the WVHA? That is, where the property went to the WVHA?
A: Other than what I have seen in the documents, no, Mr. Robbins.
Q: You told us that it was Salpeter's idea that the purpose of the SS industries was the employment and even the punishment of concentration camp inmates. Do you know of any one other than Salpeter in the SS who had that same idea?
A: Mr. Robbins, I believe that Salpeter was quite uniques in this opinion. It would have bean going too far for me to say that Maurer was of a similar opinion, but from the fact that Maurer and Salpeter were close friends I deduce that, and it was one of my main tasks, as I regarded them from an ethical point of view, to see to it that those two men who, in my opinion, saw the aims of those enterprises in a very different light than Pohl or Mummenthey or myself should be eliminated as quickly as possible, and I am still glad that it was possible to have both replaced by others of whom I was firmly convinced that at least they were thinking socially, who were, in this case, Mummenthey and Dr. May.
Q: Didn't you see the letter, the order that Pohl gave that said work in the concentration camps will be, in a true sense of the word, exhaustive, and that there will be no limit to working hours?
A: It is possible that I saw that, but not consciously. I cannot recall it today. It is quite possible. I do not know whether it reached our office or not. I believe the order went directly to the Works because anything that would normally be connected with inmate questions did not concern the Taxation Department. It was nothing for us as -
Q: It concerned Amtsgruppe W and it concerned the industries of the SS?
A: But when something was written for Office Group W, it did not always roach the DWB, because Pohl was Office Chief of Office Group W and had his own records there, and his own filing system. Pohl only passed things on to the DWB if he knew that they had to interest themselves in this on the basis of their activity.
Q: Turning to another subject. You said that -- I believe it was yesterday -- you could not remember whether or not you had heard of Himmler's Posen speech before you saw it in the documents here. Are you certain that you never heard of that speech before you came here? Isn't that something that you would have remembered?
A: I cannot remember the Posen speech from the time when I was the auditor for the DWB, because as far as I know it had not been hold then. Therefore, it would have had to reach me later on.
Whether that was the case or not I really don't know any more. What must have happened was that some SS Fuehrer told me something about it, perhaps.
Q: You didn't learn about it in your activity in the underground?
A: If you want to reach a judgment of my activities in the underground you must imagine that I was the one who communicated these things to the people concerned. Not vice-versa. Whatever happened in the negative sense from the SS sector I passed on.
Q: Didn't the underground ever pass anything on to you? Didn't you ever learn anything from members of this so-called "Passmann" circle?
A: No. What they know they had learned from me.
Q: And you didn't hear anything from them?
A: Not from those people, certainly not. They only heard from me.
Q: And you cannot remember whether or not you heard of this speech subsequent to 30 June 1943?
A: I cannot recall that. It might be possible, but I no longer remember.
Q: Wouldn't a speech like this make an indellible impression on you, or had you heard of many other utterances similar to this?
A: No, it did not make an indellible impression on me for the simple reason that I believed that at that time I know what Himmler was thinking any way.
Q: Have you heard of other speeches similar to this that Himmler had made?
A: Yes, I read here that in Cracow he made a similar speech. I saw that in one of the documents.
Q: I think that was about June 1943. Did you hear of that at the time, subsequently?
A: I heard that here, because had I heard it at the time I would certainly have used it enthusiastically and seen to it that people would hear about it, who were interested in it negatively, so to speak.
Q: I am trying to understand why it is that such a speech as the Posen-speech would not have made an indellible impression on you, and I ask you... is it because you had heard of other speeches similar to this at the time, that you knew about it well?
A: No, I knew nothing of other speeches but I knew what was happening in Auschwitz and the speech just said the same things. For that reason I am saying that it did not make an indellible impression on me. The indellible impression was already existing within me.
Q: You say you learned what was happening at Auschwitz. What did you learn, and at what time did you learn about it?
A: Of the gassing I heard roughly at the beginning of 1943.
Q: And you heard that Jews were being gassed?
A: Yes.
Q: And that these were people who were taken from the Warsaw Ghetto?
A: No, where they came from I didn't know. I only knew the fact as such. I also heard that Gypsies were being gassed.
Q: So when you heard about the speech it didn't surprise you any?
A: It is my conviction that I have seen the speech here for the first time, and it no longer surprised me because I knew these things.
Q: Well, witness, were you a member of Lebensborn?
A: No.
Q: On several occasions you proposed that the profits from the SS industries would go to the Lebensborn, did you not?
A: No, I don't believe I made the suggestions. I think I simply put things on record. The suggestion was being discussed and put down in the record.
Q: Didn't you write to Pohl that the profits from the industries should go to the Lebensborn; didn't you make that proposal to Pohl?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know that one of the functions of Lebensborn was the kidnapping of children of foreign nationals in order to select for Germanization those who were considered of racial value? Didn't you know that was one of the objectives of Lebensborn?
A: Mr. Robbins, when I was an auditor of the DWB it was not the aim of the Lebensborn. Perhaps it came up later on, but I can hardly imagine that was part of their program. Also, I would like to point out, if I may, that I attempted to say in my direct examination that the transfer of wages of inmates to the Lebensborn was pure bluff. According to the taxation regulations nothing was left over, and I would like to prove that to you, Mr. Robbins, by a taxation expert. My sole aim when I made this vain suggestion was to see to it that at last normal wages should be paid for work done by inmates.
Q: And when you made these suggestions you didn't expect the proposal to be adopted?
A: It was an attempt to test Pohl's reaction. Nobody had reacted up to then to the idea of increasing the wages and I therefore availed myself of this strange method.
I would also like to say this, Mr. Robbins. The prosecution has all the correspondence of the DWB. Don't you think that it is possible, in the course of three years, that one writes a letter which one would not write on the next day, because no one is always equally well disposed in the course done thousand days.
Q: So now you say it may have been that at one time you meant the proposal seriously, and at a later time you were considering it just as a bluff?
A: No, it isn't like that, that I took it seriously. But the effect of the suggestion to Pohl I would have judged differently on another day, perhaps, and would have said from the beginning that Pohl cannot be deceived in that manner, nor was he deceived, but he threw it into the waste paper basket.
Q: Passing on to another subject, how many meetings, witness, of the SA did you attend?
A I believe three or four.
Q That is all?
A That is all, yes.
Q During what period of time was that?
A That must have been, I believe, in June and July 1933.
Q Did you ever attend any meetings of the NSDAP?
A Yes, before the seizure of power.
Q And how many meetings did you attend?
A I was a student at the time. As a student, of course, you are very interested in political events, and for that reason we went, as much as we had time, to all meetings, Communist meetings, Socialist meetings, State Party meetings, and to those of the NSDAP. When you study, after all you are still in development, and you are much more impressionable.
Q And: is it your testimony that at no time did you join the NSDAP?
A Nor did I even make an application at any time myself. The only application made on my behalf was done without my knowledge by the Reich Finance Administration with the aim of taking me over as a Regierungsrat, a government councillor. I knew nothing about this. I was asked to come and see an Ortsgruppe, but I refused to collaborate and I was turned away with rude words. That was my only contact with the NSDAP.
Q You mean you were never a member of any affiliated organizations, I was not a member. I was a member of what was known as Group B of the National Socialist Lawyers' League. "B" was for nonparty members, and the reason for that was I was not allowed to apply for auditors' examination, without being a member of the league of lawyers. Also I was a member of the NSV, and I would pay my regular nickel there, but these are not formations, but rather simply affiliated organizations.
Q You were a member then of the National Socialist Attorneys' Association and of the National Socialist Welfare Organization?
A Yes, quite.
Q It was then the first part of June, 1942, was it not, that you visited Auschwitz, Lemberg, Lublin and Posen?
A Quite right, the first part of June, 1942.
Q And then later in 1943 you participated in a conference with Loerner, Pohl, Horn and Volk about the incorporation of these plants located in the east into the WVHA and into the Osti?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember what month that was in 1943?
A Yes, I recall the month. It was in January.
Q And at that time the removal of the Jews from the ghetto was discussed, was it not?
A No, not really. What was discussed were the three purposes of the Osti...
Q And one of the three purposes was to accomplish Himmler's aim of removal of the Jews, is that right?
A No, it is not right in that form. Pohl declared that Himmler had objected to a number of Germans living in the Warsaw ghetto using enterprises where Jews worked to become rich. Pohl declared Himmler had suggested or ordered to have some of these enterprises in the Government General reopened, and there, for the first time, I heard the name "Poniatowa". The intention must have existed to have some enterprises taken away from that part of Warsaw, to Poniatowa, but this was not a matter of resettling the Jews, but merely to use these enterprises and the Jewish labor.
Q You have seen from the documents that all of the Jewish labor disappeared and that the plants had to be closed, that these Jews were actually gassed, as you said you learned in Auschwitz. And didn't you know at the time that was happening? You said you found out early in 1943. Didn't you know that at the time this conference took place?
A Mr. Robbins, by Pohl's hint I had to reach the very opposite conclusion. If people are to be used in a factory I cannot possibly conceive the idea that they are to be gassed. Exactly the opposite would be true.
Q At the same time Himmler said that he objected to the utilization of the Jews. He ordered that they be removed from the factories. You told us about that yourself.
A Yes, but at the same time the purpose of this transfer of enterprises from Warsaw to the Osti must have been something else, and I have seen from the documents that actually the position was that utilization of the Osti later on, when the Jewish inmates had been taken away, became quite impossible, and these Jews were killed apparently at Himmler's orders; but their killing cannot have been the primary intention because otherwise there would have been no point in establishing these enterprises.
Q Let me ask you this, at the time that you participated in this conference about Osti, did you already know at that time that Jews were being gassed in Auschwitz?
A Yes.
Q And you told us that you knew that the property of the Jews was being confiscated, and you also said that you knew that the Reinhardt Fund came from the east, and that all this happened about the same time. Frank told you that the Reinhardt Fund came from the east. Didn't it ever occur to you to put these facts together and draw the obvious conclusion that the Reinhardt Fund represented moneys which came from the Warsaw actions?
A That was quite impossible. In order to exonerate one man who has acquired a bad name, I suppose I would like to say this. Globocnik was well known for the fact that he wasn't a nice man. The fact alone that he had Dr. Horn as his co-manager showed that as far as Dr. Horn could do that, the treatment of the Jews should have been decent, because Dr. Horn, as far as I recall, was an honorable man.
Q Did you hear anything about the utilization of textiles and clothing from Auschwitz and Lublin?
A No, I didn't hear that.
Q About the utilization and the confiscation of foreign currency at Lublin and Auschwitz?
A No, I didn't know that. Mr. Robvins if I had heard that, as I handled things at the time and the propaganda which I did, it only would have supported my own case very strongly. Unfortunately, I am tempted to say I unfortunately didn't hear it.
Q And you told us that you had breakfast one morning with Pohl ad Funk. What year was that, and if you can remember, what month?
A It must have been in '42, '41 or '42.
Q You have seen from Pohl's affidavit in Document Book XXII that he says that he discussed during '41 of '42 on several occasions with Funk the utilization of the textiles and personal property of the Jews from the east. Was that matter discussed when you were with Funk and Pohl?
A No, these matters were not discussed at that time when I was present. When I was present, which was at the big table where Minister Funk was sitting too, we talked exclusively of the purposes and the scope of the so-called SS enterprises, which, after all, was the purpose why Pohl had taken me along to this occasion, because I was the man who knew about the financial background in 1942, and I could, therefore, give information.
Q Why did he go to see Funk about the purposes of the SS industries? What was his business with Funk?
A I don't know. The only purpose of the visit to the Reichsbank was a different one as it occurred quite frequently. Men in charge of government departments or men in charge of large enterprises were invited by the Reichsbank at regular intervals in order to inspect the completely new vaults of the Reichsbank which, it was alleged, were still more favorable and sound then the well-known vaults of the Bank of England.
We were officially invited on inspect the Reichsbank?
Q And did you inspect the Reichsbank?
A Yes, we inspected it.
Q And you, did you accompany him?
A I believe we were six or seven and each one of us was accompanied by a director of the Reichsbank. As I recall it, Pohl was accompanied by Mr. Puhl, and Funk was not present himself. We went to the office and each one of us had somebody to accompany him.
Q Pohl says in his affidavit that when he went to the Reichsbank with Puhl he was shown the loot that he been taken from the east, gold teeth, glasses, etc. You weren't shown any of that?
A What we were shown were a number of gold bullions which were exhibited on wooden frames, gold from South Africa, South America, Russia, etc. Then the bank notes were shown to us, and I recall particularly that Puhl. because we were divided up in small groups of two each - each one of us had a Reichsbank director at his elbow - took me in, together with others, and said, "Would you like to have several millions in your hand?" And we took a large packet of thousand-mark notes and lifted them up, which was the only common remark made down there to all of us. Otherwise we were all separated.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess until 1:45.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, July 17, 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Let the record show that the Tribunal has a report from Captain Martin, the prison physician, that the Defendant Scheide is ill and will be unable to attend this session of court. He is accordingly excused from attending.
HANS HOHBERG - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, did you have any contacts with the Defendant Frank, other than those you have told us about?
A I am convinced of the fact that whenever I talked to Frank -when I was on the stairs, for example -- that I always exchanged a few words with him. However, aside from that I didn't have any contact.
Q You did talk about the Reinhardt fund?
A Yes.
Q But that is the only contacts you had with him otherwise?
A Yes.
Q Did you have any contact with the defendant Fanslau?
A I cannot recall any discussion which I ever had with Fanslau. I did not talk to Fanslau. Whenever I met him I would say "hello" to him.
Q Was your personnel file kept in his office?
A Well, he did have a personnel department. However, I don't know exactly what he did there. I don't know exactly how the fields of task were distributed.
Q Did he keep your personnel file in his office?
A I personally did not keep any personnel file.
Q No, I think you didn't understand the question. Were any of your papers, any of your personnel files kept in Office A-V?
A That would interest me, but I don't think so.
Q As far as you know, they were not?
A It wasn't the case as far as I know. It could only have been if he was interested in any of my work and if he wanted to know anything about us behind my back. However, normally no.
Q Did you have any contact of any kind with anyone else in Amts-gruppe A?
A Yes, I had contact with Hans Loerner for the following reason: The part of the so-called "Gewaltaktion" which dealt with the construction of wooden wing sections in 1944 gave a Christmas party and at that time I was with Herr Loerner and I obtained his approval there that the post exchange could give us cookies and some liquor for this Christmas celebration.
Q Is this the only contact you had with Hans Loerner?
A Herr Hans Loerner is just shaking his head. It may be that it was somebody else. I can't remember at the moment. However, I went to see a number of these people and I asked their approval. I was successful.
Q Do you remember any contact with the Defendant Vogt, V-o-g-t?
A No, I did not have any contact at all with Vogt.
Q Did you have any other contact with anyone else in Amtsgruppe A?
A Not as far as I know.
Q Well, you must have had some discussion with Melmer, didn't you, about the Reinhardt fund?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Tell us what you talked to him about?
A Frank sent Dr. Wenner and myself to see him and he informed us what factories he was going to transfer these 30,000,000 to. I urged very much that the loan from the Red Cross should be repaid, because those were the last days of my activity there. Other things, except the time limit of the repayment of the funds, were not discussed.
Q Was that in connection with the Reinhardt fund or the Red Cross loan?
A That is the same thing.
Q And the Red Cross loan was repaid from the Reinhardt fund?
A It was paid on approximately the same day I left. I was just able to complete my work.
Q And it was repaid from the Reinhardt fund?
A I believe it was repaid directly, that is to say, Melmer was ordered to make the payment directly to the Red Cross, that is, as far as I can recall.
Q And you had very close contact with Melmer at that time, didn't you?
A I didn't know him at all before that, and I met him on this occasion for the first time.
Q I said you had very close contact with him, many contacts with him at that time in discussing the Reinhardt fund?
AAs far as I can recall, two conferences took place. Each one of them may have lasted at the most from two to three minutes. After all, he only had to answer the question just when he was transferring and to whom he was transferring.
Q And you wrote to him several times?
AAt the moment I cannot recall any letter, but it is possible that somebody wrote to him in that matter. After all, I was urging the matter very much at that time.
Q You said, I believe, that you yourself did not handle any matters concerning the utilization of Jews from the East, the use of Jewish labor, is that correct?
A No, I had nothing to do with these things.
Q I would like to show you a document and ask you to explain what you had to do with the matter of Jewish labor. This is Document NO-2346, and I will mark it as Prosecution Exhibit -- can the Secretary General give me the number of this exhibit?
THE SECRETARY GENERAL: 576.
Q 576 for identification.
THE WITNESS: May I have this letter, please?
MR. ROBBINS: Don't you have it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I have it here. "There is a letter, which is addressed to the Reich Minister of Labor. It is a special delivery letter concerning the employment of Jews in the Warthe Gau with the request to consider whether the proposition of the Reich Minister of Labor can be used. May I see what it says there?
DR. HEIM (Attorney for the defendant Hohberg): Your Honors, I have to object to the presentation of this letter. It is an accompanying letter to the special delivery letter of the Reich Minister of Labor. The witness can only express his opinion and comment on this letter if the special delivery letter is shown to him and when he has gained knowledge of the contents of this special delivery letter. I believe that after such a long period of time has passed, it will be impossible for the witness to still recall today the contents of this special delivery letter.
THE PRESIDENT: No question. What was your question, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: I am going to ask him what he had to do with this matter and also if he can remember what the letter of the Reich Minister of Labor said. Unfortunately, the prosecution, I might say, is not in possession of the accompanying letter.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal can't rule unless there is a question upon which the objection may be based. Will you put you question first?
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Do you recall, Witness, what you had to do with the matter that is mentioned in this letter, NO2346?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first, is it his letter?
Q Is this your signature to the letter?
A Yes, it is my letter.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, the other question.
MR. ROBBINS: Do you recall what you had to do with this matter?
A Nothing at all. I can only make the statement that the same thing happened which happened often and which, for example, resulted in the organization of the plants under Himmler, that is to say, that on the occasion of some conference or other Pohl handed a document to somebody and said, "Do pass this document on." I can't explain this matter otherwise. I never dealt with these matters.
Q And he used you for the purpose of passing a letter on to the other offices, is that right?
A That is quite possible. After all, here we are dealing with the economic enterprises, not offices.
Q Why was it they you found it necessary to put the mark, "Staff W" on the letter?
A Well, that is the person who passed this letter on. Pohl asked that in the inter-office correspondence the title "Staff W" should be used, and the abbreviation of that was "St. W". You will find that in all the letters.
Q And that was the mark that you used in all of your letters, wasn't it?
A Yes, it was used on all letters. This was done by the special request of Pohl.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Robbins, may I ask you to inquire regarding that first sentence, which reads: "Enclosed is a copy of a special delivery letter" which would suggest that there were various copies made and someone had to supervise that mechanical process. Did he have charge of that? It wasn't merely the submission of one letter.
Q Yes, there were, apparently, copies sent to each of these offices. Did you supervise the making of the copies? Copies went to III-A, III-B, C, D, & III-E.
A Yes, possibly. However, that is a matter which did not concern me, nor did it concern anybody else, as far as the people concerned who worked with the DWB. You will probably learn from the other defendants that it happened quite often that Pohl would pass on a letter and say, "Just see to it that this letter is passed on and have this or that done." In this way, Mr. Robbins, the letter to Dr. Bobermin was brought about, as far as the brick works in Lublin were concerned.
Q I fail to see why it was that Pohl chose you to pass on this particular letter, do you know?
A I believe that this was only a real-estate matter; in this case, he only used me as a messenger in order to have me relieve him of the burden and he passed this document on to me in the course of the conversation, which he used to do quite frequently.
Q Do you recall what the special delivery letter of the Reich Minister of Labor concerned? Do you recall the contents of the letter?
A I really don't have the slightest idea.
Q You have some idea. It concerned the employment of Jews from the Warthegau. Do you remember anything else?
A I assume that here we discussed methods, that is to say, just what kind of work these Jews were supposed to do. However, I would not have an idea about that. However, this is a special delivery letter which I immediately passed on upon Pohl's order just as it happened to arrive. We never dealt with these matters.
Q You said that it dealt with the SS industries. Do you remember what it had to do with the SS industries. It concerned the employment of Jews in the industries, didn't it?
A This letter shows that the leaders of the firm groups were to express their comments on this matter. Nothing else is stated in this let+er. I really cannot recall anything from the Reich Minister of Labor's letter. You would have to show me some more documents about the matter.
Q Will you turn to Document Book 22. It is on page 20 of the English. I am sorry that I don't have the German page. It is NO1954. It's the document which appoints you the Economic Inspector. It's page 20 in the English Document Book 22, Exhibit 529.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. Robbins, I want to ask the witness one question about the document you just identified. 576 - Document 2346. Witness, if you were the auditor for these concerns, why would you be having anything to do with labor. An auditor doesn't ordinarily have anything to do with labor, does he?
THE WITNESS: I didn't actually have anything to do with labor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Why were you transmitting a letter concerning labor, if were just auditing the books?
THE WITNESS: Such things actually were never discussed within my scope of work.. After all, I would have heard something about it on the occasion when the letters were discussed.
I would like to state, in this connection, that there is no other possibility than that Pohl just cleared his desk with one movement of his hand and told me to please pass this on to the firm groups and it couldn't have happened any other way. Pohl did not on a single occasion discuss a labor problem with me. Never.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, Pohl had an office in the organization there that dealt with labor exclusively. Why didn't he send it to them, instead of giving it to the auditor?
THE WITNESS: Your honor, it would have been correct if Pohl himself would have dictated a letter and mailed that letter to the firm group leaders. Apparently, at that moment he didn't feel like doing so and he said here is someone who can handle the matter for me. There could be no other way that it happened. I had nothing to do with these things. However, things like that happened quite often, Your Honors.