After all, certain prerequisites existed by law for the issuance of such heavy workers' rations, and the inmates who were working did not always fulfill these prerequisites.
Q The Prosecution has presented Document NI 1065 in Document Book 11, Page 59 of the German text. It is contained in Document Book 11 on Page 46 of the English text. It is an affidavit by you, and in this affidavit you call yourself the chief of a main department. How was that?
A In April 1944 I was promoted from Obersturmfuehrer of the Waffen SS--that is to say, first lieutenant in the army, to Haupsturmfuehrer, that is Captain. After this promotion, Maurer told me that I could call myself director of a main department. This would not change my field of work and it would not cause any change in the authority which I had.
Q Will you please describe to the Tribunal briefly the official procedure when a firm requested a certain number of inmates?
A Originally, that is, up to May or June 1944 the procedure which was followed was about the following: If any firm needed any inmates, it would write to the commander of a concentration camp or it would write to Office D-II in the WVHA. There it would request that these inmates should be furnished. If the commander of a concentration camp received such a request, then, without having worked on it and without any notification to the firm, he had to pass it on to Office D-II. Whenever inmates were available, then the chief of Office D-II, Maurer, personally went to see the firm. He would call the competent camp commander for a conference, and then he would discuss with that firm the intended assignment of inmates. He told the firm under what prerequisites inmates would be furnished for labor assignment. If the firm was able and ready to meet the necessary prerequisites-
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
that is to say, to prepare security measures, accommodations, and so on--then Maurer would return to Berlin. He made a report then to Pohl. If Pohl agreed to this assignment of inmates, then the camp commander would receive the appropriate order. The firm was notified, and then it had to make the necessary preparations. As soon as the preparations had been completed, the inmates were furnished for labor.
In the meantime the firm had to make the formal application which I mentioned through the camp commander, and had to submit it to Office D-11. In the case of the economic enterprises, the procedure was in general that the plant manager would channel the request of the firms only to the camp commander, who, at the same time, was the director of the enterprises, and then the matter would be submitted to D-II. From May or June, 1944, all requests of the firms were exclusively, or almost exclusively channeled through the agency of labor assignment in the Speer Ministry. The Speer Ministry made the requests for inmates deal with the plenipotentiary for labor assignment, and would examine the priority of the matter, and then would pass on these requests to Office D-II. D-II then notified the competent camp commander, and he in turn would establish contact with the firm, and then the matter was handled in exactly the same way as I have already described. In this connection I would like to refer briefly to Document NO-1975, which is in Document Book 13 and was presented as Exhibit 363. It is on Page 76 of the English document book. In the index of this document it is stated that this is a letter from the Office D-II in the WVHA to the firm ATG in Leipzig. That is not correct. The letter is from the headquarters of the concentration camp Buchenwald, and it is addressed to the firm ATG. Buchenwald states in that letter that the WVHA had informed Buchenwald of the fact that the firm ATG intended to employ inmates, and that Buchenwald was to submit an appropriate report to D-II. That is part of the procedure which I have previously mentioned.
Q. Witness, of what did your own activity consist in this entire procedure?
A. I had to deal administratively with all matters which were connected with the labor assignment of inmates. That is to say, when such a report arrived from a camp commander, then I had to include the applicant in the list which was submitted to Pohl. After Pohl had made his decision, I had to dictate letters to the camps and to the firms concerned.
I had then to submit them to Maurer for his signature. I have already stated that later on I had to handle the courrier service between our agency and the Speer Ministry. Then I constantly had a plan of the trips of Mauser whenever he was away on a trip. When I received a request from a firm, and Maurer was in the vicinity of that firm, then I would send a teletype to him to visit that particular firm. Then I had to see that the formal requests arrived. That is to say, I had to deal with all work in the office which was connected with the labor assignment of inmates. I did not have any authority, and I could not make my own decisions in these matters.
Q. Witness, in your affidavit of the 22nd of January, 1947, Exhibit 13, document Book I, you state, "I was a member of Office D-II of the WVHA, and in a certain way I had the task of an office chief. Standartenfuehrer Maurer was the Office Chief of D-II. In the end I was Maurer's collaborator, and at the end of 1943 I became his deputy." I want to ask you the following question now. Does your own statement allow to consider you the Deputy Chief of Office D-II?
A. Not in my opinion, no. In my pre-trial interrogation I have stated in detail what brought about my appointment as deputy of Maurer. The situation was as follows : At the end of 1942 or early in 1943 Maurer told me one day that on the occasion of a conference in the WVHA there had been a lot of arguments and a big dispute because a civilian employee of an economic enterprise who, in the absence of his office chief, had participated in that conference, could not give any information about a certain matter. Pohl had been so enreaged about this matter that he saw to it that this man was immediately conscripted as a soldier and transferred. Therefore, he considered it appropriate to appoint a deputy. As his deputy in his absence I constantly had to be present in the office so that whenever Pohl called somebody would be there who could provide him with the necessary information about the labor assignment of inmates. That is what brought about my appointment as the deputy of Maurer. However, I have never been his deputy chief of office, and I have never had any authority to make my own decisions in any matter which was concerned with the labor assignment of inmates.
Q. Could you please make a statement on certain details which show that you cannot be considered the deputy chief of the office with regard to Maurer?
A. My field of work extended solely to the field of D-II/1. Neither the man in charge of D-II/2 nor the man in charge of D-II/3 ever reported to me, nor did they ever ask me for my decisions on matters which were submitted to Office D-II in the absence of Maurer. I could not make any decisions on them, but when these matters were submitted by visitors, the visitors were asked to wait until Maurer had returned, and after Maurer had returned he was informed by me of the matter, and then the visitors were called up by telephone and informed of Maurer's decision.
As his deputy I had to see that the office worked in order. That is to say, I had to see that the agency was occupied in accordance with regulations. Whenever I had to take some official trips, then I received a firmly outlined mission which I had to accomplish. I would receive that from Maurer or Gluecks, and I only had to carry out that particular mission. During my activity in the Office D-II I took approximately ten to fifteen official trips. Of these I took three with a motor vehicle when I had to accompany other persons.
Q. If Maurer had not returned from his trips on Saturday didn't it happen that you would have to bring the mail on Sunday morning to Maurer's apartment?
A. Yes, that is correct, Whenever Maurer was away on an official trip and he was unable to return to Berlin, over the week-end, then I had to bring him all mail which had arrived, on Sunday morning in his apartment. At the same time I had to bring along a stenographer who would then take down the letters, the replies to the other letters. In this connection I can recall that in the fall of 1943 Maurer took about two weeks' leave at the Berghaus Sudelfeld which is located near Bayrischzell.
On a Sunday, in that two-week interval, I had to go to the Sudelfeld with the entire mail which had arrived, and I had to submit all this mail to Maurer for his decision.
Q. Did you participate in any conferences of the commandants?
A. I did not participate in a single one of the commandants' meetings, and I have never reported to Pohl as the deputy of Maurer. The only two occasions when I went to see Pohl during a discussion, that was in March and April of 1945. On these occasions labor allocation of inmates was not discussed at all, but we discussed only evacuation measures which had to be carried out for the agency of the WVHA.
DR. BELZER: Your Honor, do you consider the time appropriate now to call a recess?
THE PRESIDENT: The time is always appropriate to call a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 13:45 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1345. hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 30 June 1947.)
KARL SOMMER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. BELZER: (Counsel for the defendant Karl Sommer)
Q Witness, were you employed as a civilian in Office D-2, or were you employed there as a member of the Waffen-SS?
A During the first conference which I had with Maurer in Oranienburg, he told me that he intended to use me as a civilian employee in Office D-2. I served as a civilian in office D-2 at first. No salary arrangement was actually made at the beginning, and I received my salary from the DEST. When I finally received my regular pay from D-2, I paid it all back to the DEST. Towards the middle of June, 1942, Maurer told me to my surprise that it was impossible to use me as a civilian employee, and that he had taken the necessary steps to call me up to the Waffen-SS, and to actually take me over in the Waffen-SS according to my rank in the army, an Obersturmfuehrer in the Waffen-SS, a Reserve unit. From the Kommando under which I was subordinated, I was examined by a medical officer there, and then by an SS commission. And then towards the end of June 1942 -- retroactive as of the fifth of May, 1942 -- I was transferred to the Waffen-SS.
Q What was the rank which you had in the Waffen-SS?
A I became Obersturmfuehrer in the Reserve, similar to my rank in the Wehrmacht. That corresponded to the rank of a first lieutenant in the army. That was on the 20th of April, 1944, when I was promoted to Hauptsturmfuehrer, which is a rank of captain in the army.
Q When was it that you were promoted to Sturmbannfuehrer?
A I was never promoted to the rank of Sturmbannfuehrer in the Waffen-SS. My highest rank was Hauptsturmfuehrer -- or captain.
Q What was the uniform which you wore as an SS leader?
A Due to my old wounds it was no longer possible for me to wear the regular uniform; boots, and trousers tucked in the boots. That was the reason why I wore civilian shoes and long trousers at all times. I had the special permission of Gluecks to do so. On special occasions I wore ski trousers, ski boots and a skiing hat, I wore that suit only on very few occasions. I couldn't wear that suit too often because the ski shoes were too heavy; they kept pressing against the scar which was left after the wound healed, and after a little while I could hardly walk.
Q What were your working hours in Office D-2?
A I lived in Berlin Wilmersdorf, and the distance from Berlin to Oranienburg was approximately 40 kilometers. That is, I had to go by train both in the morning and in the evening, which took an hour and a half one way. My official working hours were from eight in the morning to eight in the evening. Actually, I was in the office until seven o'clock p.m. In the morning I had to leave the house at twenty minutes past six and I wouldn't return home before nine o'clock in the evening.
Those were the working hours up to the 23rd of August, 1943. Then I lost my house in Berlin in an air raid, and I moved to Oranienburg. There I worked until about seven o'clock although my work usually lasted until eight or nine o'clock in the evening.
Q What was the result of your economic position as an expert in Office D-2? And that compared with your position in the DEST, the German Earth and Stone Works.
A Maurer promised me that my wages would not be inferior to those I received before. During my first conference which I had with Maurer, it became known to me that the so-called Main Department chiefs would receive approximately 200 marks. I was of the opinion that I also was to receive those 200 marks some day. In effect, I never received them. Those 200 marks were really for expenses.
Up to April 1944 I received the pay of an Obersturmfuehrer -- which corresponded approximately to my pay in the DEST; and after I had been promoted to Hauptsturmfuehrer -- or captain -- I received from 90 to 100 marks in addition to what I received before, per month. During the first few years I was not better off, financially. However, I did have to do more work, and that is with reference to working hours.
Q Did you at any time try to resign from Office D-2, or from Amtsgruppe D? If so, what were the results of your efforts?
A.- It was in the summer of 1943, when it became quite clear to me that I would be nothing but a clerk in Office D-II, nothing but a man with a desk, who had no position of his own. That was the reason why I tried to resign from Office D-II. I spoke to a Dr. Hoffmann, and he told me at the time that if I could possibly be released from Office D-II, he would give me a more or less good position with some German Drug Factory. At the time I asked Maured to please release me. However, I received nothing but a refusal, which was justified by his saying that there was a war on and that everybody had to do his duty, regardless of where he was.
Q.- The reasons why you wanted to withdraw from Office D-II were more of an economic nature, so to say, because you couldn't possibly get an individual position?
A.- Yes, that is correct. I wanted to have an individual position and at the same time I wanted to have a higher salary.
THE PRESIDENT: At the time Maurer took you into the SS in July, 1942, were you a civilian?
WITNESS: Yes, indeed, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Outside of your membership in the Allgemeine SS, you had no connection with the Waffen SS until July, 1942?
WITNESS: No, Your Honor. I was a Reserve Officer of the Army on leave and I was under the supervision of the Army.
THE PRESIDENT: And when you were working in DEST you were a civilian?
WITNESS: Yes, I was a civilian employee.
Q.- From your answer, Witness, I understand that your attempt to withdraw from Office D-II and to be transferred to another office was not caused by the knowledge that your activity in Office D-II was of an immoral nature, an act against the law, perhaps even a criminal action?
A.- No, that was not the reason.
Q.- Did you actually think of something like that?
A.- No.
Q.- The concentration camps, as such, did you think they were criminal installations ?
A.- No, I didn't. The concentration camps existed since 1933 or 1934. They were State Institutions. The man who could send people to the concentration camps was Heydrich. He was the same Heydrich who in 1937, if I can recall correctly, became the President of the International Criminalistic Club; according to what one could read in the German papers, he had been promoted to such a position in his capacity as having scored lots of scores, while preventing crime in Germany.
Q.- According to your opinion before your entry into Office D-II, what was the task and purpose of the concentration camp?
A.- when I joined the DEST, the German Earth and Stone Works, G.M.B.H., I found a file there where in decrees and regulations of the Ministry of Justice were contained with reference to the labor assignment question of Jewish prisoners. The Jewish prisoners were to be used in stone quarries, brick factories, calcium factories, etc, etc., In the concentration camp I saw a special way in which to carry out penal servitude and with which the State could actually fight crime. The inmates were assigned there for rehabilitation purposes, just the same way as it worked with all the other penal institutions of justice. All these instructions and all these decrees, which I found in the DEST, originated from before the war, and according to them it was the German attitude toward work that it was the duty of every human being who was able to work and that particularly applied during the war. The concentration camps, according to my opinion, had the purpose of re-educating or educating the people by giving them work.
Q.- Did you on the basis of your activity in Office D-II find any reason to change your idea about the purpose of the concentration camps, and, I mean by that, due to the fact that there were also foreigners in the concentration camps?
A.- No, I never heard that human beings were being sent to concentration camps for the sole reason that the WVHA or the concentration camps were a pool for labor for the civilian industries, even military indus tries.
During my activity in Office D-II, I never saw a single order by which it could have been understood that it was the specific purpose of the concentration camps to abuse human beings or to work them to death. On the contrary, in all the orders and decrees I noticed one thing, namely, it was necessary to treat the inmates in a humane way and to restore their ability to work. That concerns the orders that I saw.
Q.- Did you know that prisoners-of-war were sent to concentration camps? Did you know that they were used by Office D-II as workers?
A.- No, it was only in a single instance that I saw POW's in the concentration camp.I saw those POW's when they were climbing into a bus in front of the concentration camp and they drove away. When I walked into the camp which was a protective custody camp, Sachsenhausen and I saw a few barracks which had been separated by barbed wire, and there was an inscription on that barbed wire, "POW Camp." I inquired then what kind of a special PW camp within a concentration camp that was, whereupon I was told that was a camp for the Zepplin works. I couldn't find out any more about it at the time. When I entered the protective custody camp of Sachsenhausen a little while later, the PW Camp no longer existed. The inmates in the meantime had been sent to the barracks in Oranienburg. Later on I found out that the Zepplin works trained Russian Prisoners of War who had volunteered for that purpose in order to drop them as saboteurs on the other side of the lines and use them against the Russians. That was the only time that I had any contact with prisoners of war in the concentration camps.
Q.- During the war the religious sect of Jehova's Witnesses were also sent to the concentration camps. How can you actually reconcile that with the use you thought that they could propagate their pacifist thoughts. As far as I know, Jehova's witness could be released from a concentration camp immediately, if they volunteered, by signing a form that they no longer believed in their conscientious objections. According to what I know -- according my statistics, there were approximately 500 S.Co. in the concentration camps, By that I mean 500 men and 500 women.
Q.- Were these conscientious objectors or Jehova's Witnesses forced to do the same work as all the other concentration camp inmates?
A.- The Jehova's witnesses did not have to be placed under guard. That means that they never attempted to escape from the concentration camp. At least that is the way I understood it. That is one of the main reasons why they were assigned to special duties. Femal conscientious objectors were sent to families where they had too many children as assistants.
Q.- Which were the concentration camps which were under the subordination of the WVHA, witness?
A.- The WVHA was in charge directly of the concentration camps of Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenbuerg, Gross-Rosen, Mauthausen, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Mittelbau, -- which was also known under the name of Dora -- Ravensbrueck concentration camp, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Bergen-Belsen, and Hertogenbosch in Holland. Indirectly, they were in charge of the concentration camps in the Government General of Poland and in the Eastern and Baltic countries. the WVHA was never in charge of the camp Treblinka, Sobibor, Trawnicki, Belsec, and Majdanek, which were quite independent in their allocation of labor.
Q.- Would you please state briefly the indirect subordination of the concentration camp under the WVHA of the G.G.I. in the Eastern territories and the Baltic countries?
A.- I mean indirectly insofar as the SS Economist with the Higher SS and Police Leaders was the immediate supervisor of those concentration camps and in his decisions as far as labor assignment was concerned at least, he was absolutely independent. He only had to inform Amstgruppe D afterwards of the measures he had taken, and Amtsgruppe D had to inform Pohl about those things.
Q. Did you yourself have the possibility of visiting a concentration camp?
A. Generally speaking, no. The prosecution introduced a document here, Document NO-1506, Exhibit Number 93, in Document Book Number IV. This is an order by Gluecks in which it is stated that only those leaders who are listed in the special regulations for concentration camps are permitted to enter a concentration camps. As far as I can recall, it had been stated in that regulation that Hitler, Himmler, the Gauleiters, Main Office chiefs, the Inspector of the Concentration Camps, and a few others could enter the concentration camps. In my opinion that was the only thing that was contained in that order with reference to those concentration camps.
However, I could enter a concentration camp with Gluecks' permission and then accompanied by a man who had been assigned me by the commander of the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen where I had to go in order to control the watch repair shops. I could go in there without being accompanied by anybody.
Q. Which ones of the concentration camps which you mentioned before did you ever visit?
A. I visited the concentration camp of Auschwitz twice. That was in the summer or 1943 and in November of 1944. In the summer of 1943 I only visited the protective custody camp for approximately half an hour.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): Where was that? The protective custody camp; where was it?
A. That was Auschwitz, your Honor. I was in the concentration camp of Buchenwald towards the end of 1944 after I had made an official trip to Ohrdruf. I was in Dachau once in the autumn of 1943 on the occasion of an official trip to the Sudelfeld where I had to give the mail to Maurer, and during the course of which there was an air-raid on Munich. This was the reason that I could not return im mediately.
I was with the protective custody chief for about one hour and a half. I was in Gross-Rosen once in the summer of 1943. At the time I had received an order to assist the classification experts of Krupp's on selecting special skilled workers for this factory. The classification analyst of the firm of Krupp did not appear in Gross-Rosen at the time, and no selection was carried out. I visited the protective custody camp then for a very short period of time.
I was in Neuengamme in February 1942 on the occasion of a conference of labor assignment chiefs. I did not see the protective custody camp at the time. I was in Ravensbruck perhaps two or three times; but I only entered the protective custody camp in April 1945 one time. The protective custody camp of the Concentration camp of Sachsenhausen I believe I visited ten to fifteen times in order to control the watch repair shops there. I was in Stutthof once in the winter between 1942 and 1943; and I also visited the protective custody camp then. I was twice in Bergen-Belsen, in June 1944 for the first time, and then on the 28th of March 1945 towards 11 o'clock in the evening. During that visit I only spoke with the commander for approximately ten minutes; and then I proceeded on my trip to Berlin. I was coming from Celle. I visited the concentration camp of Mittelbau or Dora together with Gluecks between Christmas and New Year's 1942; and it was not then an independent concentration camp but just a labor camp of the concentration camp of Buchenwald. I never visited the concentration camps at Flossenburg, Mauthausen, Natzweiler, and the concentration camps in the occupied territories.
Q. Do you know if there was a general camp regulation which was binding for the camp personnel?
A. Yes, indeed. There was a camp regulation for concentration camps which, according to my recollection, was signed by Himmler. It was a volume containing seventy to eighty pages and originated in 1938.
Q. Witness, do you know anything about the scales used in the concentration camps? Who was it, in your opinion, who was going to carry out this scaling in the concentration camps, and what was the whole purpose? According to your observations did it have any practical influence, and do you know if and when that institution was eliminated?
THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean by scaling? We don't understand what you mean by the word scaling.
DR. BELZER: The concentration camps were subdivided into scales or departments, 1,2,3; and I wanted to know if the witness knew anything about this subdivision of concentration camps in Departments 1, 2, or 3, or 4, and if so what he knows.
A. In Document Book Number IV the prosecution introduced Exhibit Number 83, Document NO-743, which is an order signed by Heydrich. In this order it is stated that the concentration camps are to be subdivided into grades or we can call them classes. The order is dated the 2nd of January 1941. According to my recollection, I myself saw this thing for the first time in 1942. Gluecks at the time had ordered that certain skilled workers were to be transferred from Mauthausen to another concentration camp. The camp commandant refused to transfer those inmates. He insisted that the RSHA or the Reich Security Main Service wanted to have these inmates in a special camp of Class 3 and that was the reason why the inmates could only stay in the camp of Mauthausen.
As I remember it, there was a conference between Gluecks and the Reich Security Main Office. I recall an occasion when Gluecks explained quite clearly to the expert of the RSHA that such a subdivision in classes was absolutely nonsense because thus all skilled workers would be kept in one single camp, or beyond that it worked in the following way. Quite a few main camps had labor camps with some industry or firm, and the camp with the firm of X in Lins was about the same as the one with the firm of Y in Weimar.
That was the reason why Gluecks thought that this subdivision into two classes was obsolete. In my opinion subdivision into classes was the only purpose; and that is the way it is described in my document about using difficult inmates on difficult work.
I had explained that in my affidavit, which is also contained in Exhibit 13 in Document Book No.1. There I have explained that clearly. However, I don't know if that opinion on my part is quite correct, that is, that the inmates were sent to a camp of Class 3 because there were stone quaries there. From a document which is signed by Heydrich, it seems that other camps in which there were also stone quarries belonged to Class 2. That is all I know about the classes of subdivision of the concentration camps.
As far as the practical importance is concerned, it had none as of 1943, as a result of the regulation which was set up during the conference with the RSHA, that this class subdivision was not to be regarded as inmates nor were to be transferred from one camp to the other.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS):
Q. Witness, when you were making all of these visits to various concentration camps as you have described, were you there on observation visits or were you there for some other purpose?
A. Your Honor, when I visited the concentration camps, then I always had one specific duty as the reason for which I was going there. If I could tell you new comments on concentration camps, I would appreciate it very much because--
Q. No. You were sent there on an official mission each time you went.
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You visited Bergen-Belsen as late as 1945?
A. Yes, 1945, yes, that's correct.
Q. That was primarily a women's camp, was it not?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Well, in 1944 and 1945 did you see any evidences of thousands and thousands of women being starved to death?
A. In Bergen-Belsen, your Honor, no. The first time I was there was in June 1944. At that time I had the duty of visiting the PW camp which was very near the camp of Belsen-Bergen. I was to have certain conferences with the commander of that PW camp in order to discuss to which agency in the army that PW camp could he transferred for purposes of the concentration camp for BelsenBergen. That PW camp which was built for approximately 40,000 people was absolutely empty, while the camp Belsen was only very small and was to be a rest camp. Those inmates who became sick while working for the various industries were to rest there and recuperate in order that they could be used again in labor assignments. Beyond that, Bergen-Belsen was to be used as an internment camp for all male non Jewish inmates as it was in the center of Germay so that the classification or qualification analysts would only have to go to Belsen In order to select their people for the various industries and not just travel from one camp to the other.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS: I didn't ask you for any of that long answer. I just asked you did you see any evidence of thousands of women being slowly starved to death in 1944 in Belsen-Bergen. Now, you could answer that with one word. "Yes" or "no", did you see them there?
A No, your Honor.
Q Did you see the moving pictures of Belsen-Bergen that were taken immediately after the camp was liberated by the Allies?
A Yes, indeed.
Q And you saw the thousands of dead women that had starved to death there in this picture, did you not?
A Yes, I saw there that bodies of many women who had apparently starved to death.
Q Yes. That's all you saw, yourself?
A No, I will go further than that. I will say many of them.
Q Now, as Chief of D-II/1 and as the official responsible for the allocation of labor of the inmates, did you not have to collaborate with other top chiefs in regard to food, clothing and housing and other needs of the inmates in your work of allocation?
A Your Honor, my field of tasks was no independent one. I wasn't the Chief of labor Allocation in concentration camps. That was Maurer.
Q I understand that but you were in Charge of Office D-II?
AA number of field of tasks.
Q Yes.
A Yes, indeed.
Q Now, as that officer, didn't you have to collaborate with those who dealt with food, housing and clothing of the concentration camps inmates?
A No, I didn't, your Honor.
Q That was all independent?
A No, you see the task of collaboration was with the Chief of the Office who knew the conditions out there and who could act indep Court No. II, Case No. 4.endently; after all, I couldn't act independently.
I only had to do what my Chief of Office told me to do. That was as far as my authority extended.
Q I understand that but the authority that he gave you, the authority you acted under, did you not collaborate with these people who had charge of the food, clothing and housing and the necessities of the inmates?
A I never did have such an authority, your Honor, never.
Q All right.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q Witness, you have heard some of the statements made by several witnesses where you have heard of murder and mistreatments of concentration camp inmates by the concentration camp personnel. As a collaborator in Office D-II did you have any knowledge of those things?
A I never heard of anything of murder and mistreatment of concentration camp inmates.
Q Today on the basis of all of the things you learned here in this trial, do you believe that such murders were the result of a system or would you consider that as an execution of pre-arranged plans or would you call it an abuse on the part of the authorities of the camp personnel?
A That question is very, very difficult to answer. The enormous amount of evidence introduced by the prosecution only contains one document in which the words "extermination by labor" is contained and could possibly be brought into connection with those things which went on in the concentration camps or at least apparently did. That was something I will refer to later on in a different connection. We heard several statements by witnesses here and I, myself, during my long custody dealt with lots of literature which concerned the concentration camps. My impression on those things is the following one: Pohl testified here as a witness and gave a character description of Eicke. I, myself, never did know Eicke. Pohl testified about Eicke Court No, II, Case No. 4.that he saw a personal enemy in every political inmate.