A.- No, I didn't. The concentration camps existed since 1933 or 1934. They were State Institutions. The man who could send people to the concentration camps was Heydrich. He was the same Heydrich who in 1937, if I can recall correctly, became the President of the International Criminalistic Club; according to what one could read in the German papers, he had been promoted to such a position in his capacity as having scored lots of scores, while preventing crime in Germany.
Q.- According to your opinion before your entry into Office D-II, what was the task and purpose of the concentration camp?
A.- when I joined the DEST, the German Earth and Stone Works, G.M.B.H., I found a file there where in decrees and regulations of the Ministry of Justice were contained with reference to the labor assignment question of Jewish prisoners. The Jewish prisoners were to be used in stone quarries, brick factories, calcium factories, etc, etc., In the concentration camp I saw a special way in which to carry out penal servitude and with which the State could actually fight crime. The inmates were assigned there for rehabilitation purposes, just the same way as it worked with all the other penal institutions of justice. All these instructions and all these decrees, which I found in the DEST, originated from before the war, and according to them it was the German attitude toward work that it was the duty of every human being who was able to work and that particularly applied during the war. The concentration camps, according to my opinion, had the purpose of re-educating or educating the people by giving them work.
Q.- Did you on the basis of your activity in Office D-II find any reason to change your idea about the purpose of the concentration camps, and, I mean by that, due to the fact that there were also foreigners in the concentration camps?
A.- No, I never heard that human beings were being sent to concentration camps for the sole reason that the WVHA or the concentration camps were a pool for labor for the civilian industries, even military indus tries.
During my activity in Office D-II, I never saw a single order by which it could have been understood that it was the specific purpose of the concentration camps to abuse human beings or to work them to death. On the contrary, in all the orders and decrees I noticed one thing, namely, it was necessary to treat the inmates in a humane way and to restore their ability to work. That concerns the orders that I saw.
Q.- Did you know that prisoners-of-war were sent to concentration camps? Did you know that they were used by Office D-II as workers?
A.- No, it was only in a single instance that I saw POW's in the concentration camp.I saw those POW's when they were climbing into a bus in front of the concentration camp and they drove away. When I walked into the camp which was a protective custody camp, Sachsenhausen and I saw a few barracks which had been separated by barbed wire, and there was an inscription on that barbed wire, "POW Camp." I inquired then what kind of a special PW camp within a concentration camp that was, whereupon I was told that was a camp for the Zepplin works. I couldn't find out any more about it at the time. When I entered the protective custody camp of Sachsenhausen a little while later, the PW Camp no longer existed. The inmates in the meantime had been sent to the barracks in Oranienburg. Later on I found out that the Zepplin works trained Russian Prisoners of War who had volunteered for that purpose in order to drop them as saboteurs on the other side of the lines and use them against the Russians. That was the only time that I had any contact with prisoners of war in the concentration camps.
Q.- During the war the religious sect of Jehova's Witnesses were also sent to the concentration camps. How can you actually reconcile that with the use you thought that they could propagate their pacifist thoughts. As far as I know, Jehova's witness could be released from a concentration camp immediately, if they volunteered, by signing a form that they no longer believed in their conscientious objections. According to what I know -- according my statistics, there were approximately 500 S.Co. in the concentration camps, By that I mean 500 men and 500 women.
Q.- Were these conscientious objectors or Jehova's Witnesses forced to do the same work as all the other concentration camp inmates?
A.- The Jehova's witnesses did not have to be placed under guard. That means that they never attempted to escape from the concentration camp. At least that is the way I understood it. That is one of the main reasons why they were assigned to special duties. Femal conscientious objectors were sent to families where they had too many children as assistants.
Q.- Which were the concentration camps which were under the subordination of the WVHA, witness?
A.- The WVHA was in charge directly of the concentration camps of Auschwitz, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenbuerg, Gross-Rosen, Mauthausen, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Mittelbau, -- which was also known under the name of Dora -- Ravensbrueck concentration camp, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Bergen-Belsen, and Hertogenbosch in Holland. Indirectly, they were in charge of the concentration camps in the Government General of Poland and in the Eastern and Baltic countries. the WVHA was never in charge of the camp Treblinka, Sobibor, Trawnicki, Belsec, and Majdanek, which were quite independent in their allocation of labor.
Q.- Would you please state briefly the indirect subordination of the concentration camp under the WVHA of the G.G.I. in the Eastern territories and the Baltic countries?
A.- I mean indirectly insofar as the SS Economist with the Higher SS and Police Leaders was the immediate supervisor of those concentration camps and in his decisions as far as labor assignment was concerned at least, he was absolutely independent. He only had to inform Amstgruppe D afterwards of the measures he had taken, and Amtsgruppe D had to inform Pohl about those things.
Q. Did you yourself have the possibility of visiting a concentration camp?
A. Generally speaking, no. The prosecution introduced a document here, Document NO-1506, Exhibit Number 93, in Document Book Number IV. This is an order by Gluecks in which it is stated that only those leaders who are listed in the special regulations for concentration camps are permitted to enter a concentration camps. As far as I can recall, it had been stated in that regulation that Hitler, Himmler, the Gauleiters, Main Office chiefs, the Inspector of the Concentration Camps, and a few others could enter the concentration camps. In my opinion that was the only thing that was contained in that order with reference to those concentration camps.
However, I could enter a concentration camp with Gluecks' permission and then accompanied by a man who had been assigned me by the commander of the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen where I had to go in order to control the watch repair shops. I could go in there without being accompanied by anybody.
Q. Which ones of the concentration camps which you mentioned before did you ever visit?
A. I visited the concentration camp of Auschwitz twice. That was in the summer or 1943 and in November of 1944. In the summer of 1943 I only visited the protective custody camp for approximately half an hour.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): Where was that? The protective custody camp; where was it?
A. That was Auschwitz, your Honor. I was in the concentration camp of Buchenwald towards the end of 1944 after I had made an official trip to Ohrdruf. I was in Dachau once in the autumn of 1943 on the occasion of an official trip to the Sudelfeld where I had to give the mail to Maurer, and during the course of which there was an air-raid on Munich. This was the reason that I could not return im mediately.
I was with the protective custody chief for about one hour and a half. I was in Gross-Rosen once in the summer of 1943. At the time I had received an order to assist the classification experts of Krupp's on selecting special skilled workers for this factory. The classification analyst of the firm of Krupp did not appear in Gross-Rosen at the time, and no selection was carried out. I visited the protective custody camp then for a very short period of time.
I was in Neuengamme in February 1942 on the occasion of a conference of labor assignment chiefs. I did not see the protective custody camp at the time. I was in Ravensbruck perhaps two or three times; but I only entered the protective custody camp in April 1945 one time. The protective custody camp of the Concentration camp of Sachsenhausen I believe I visited ten to fifteen times in order to control the watch repair shops there. I was in Stutthof once in the winter between 1942 and 1943; and I also visited the protective custody camp then. I was twice in Bergen-Belsen, in June 1944 for the first time, and then on the 28th of March 1945 towards 11 o'clock in the evening. During that visit I only spoke with the commander for approximately ten minutes; and then I proceeded on my trip to Berlin. I was coming from Celle. I visited the concentration camp of Mittelbau or Dora together with Gluecks between Christmas and New Year's 1942; and it was not then an independent concentration camp but just a labor camp of the concentration camp of Buchenwald. I never visited the concentration camps at Flossenburg, Mauthausen, Natzweiler, and the concentration camps in the occupied territories.
Q. Do you know if there was a general camp regulation which was binding for the camp personnel?
A. Yes, indeed. There was a camp regulation for concentration camps which, according to my recollection, was signed by Himmler. It was a volume containing seventy to eighty pages and originated in 1938.
Q. Witness, do you know anything about the scales used in the concentration camps? Who was it, in your opinion, who was going to carry out this scaling in the concentration camps, and what was the whole purpose? According to your observations did it have any practical influence, and do you know if and when that institution was eliminated?
THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean by scaling? We don't understand what you mean by the word scaling.
DR. BELZER: The concentration camps were subdivided into scales or departments, 1,2,3; and I wanted to know if the witness knew anything about this subdivision of concentration camps in Departments 1, 2, or 3, or 4, and if so what he knows.
A. In Document Book Number IV the prosecution introduced Exhibit Number 83, Document NO-743, which is an order signed by Heydrich. In this order it is stated that the concentration camps are to be subdivided into grades or we can call them classes. The order is dated the 2nd of January 1941. According to my recollection, I myself saw this thing for the first time in 1942. Gluecks at the time had ordered that certain skilled workers were to be transferred from Mauthausen to another concentration camp. The camp commandant refused to transfer those inmates. He insisted that the RSHA or the Reich Security Main Service wanted to have these inmates in a special camp of Class 3 and that was the reason why the inmates could only stay in the camp of Mauthausen.
As I remember it, there was a conference between Gluecks and the Reich Security Main Office. I recall an occasion when Gluecks explained quite clearly to the expert of the RSHA that such a subdivision in classes was absolutely nonsense because thus all skilled workers would be kept in one single camp, or beyond that it worked in the following way. Quite a few main camps had labor camps with some industry or firm, and the camp with the firm of X in Lins was about the same as the one with the firm of Y in Weimar.
That was the reason why Gluecks thought that this subdivision into two classes was obsolete. In my opinion subdivision into classes was the only purpose; and that is the way it is described in my document about using difficult inmates on difficult work.
I had explained that in my affidavit, which is also contained in Exhibit 13 in Document Book No.1. There I have explained that clearly. However, I don't know if that opinion on my part is quite correct, that is, that the inmates were sent to a camp of Class 3 because there were stone quaries there. From a document which is signed by Heydrich, it seems that other camps in which there were also stone quarries belonged to Class 2. That is all I know about the classes of subdivision of the concentration camps.
As far as the practical importance is concerned, it had none as of 1943, as a result of the regulation which was set up during the conference with the RSHA, that this class subdivision was not to be regarded as inmates nor were to be transferred from one camp to the other.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS):
Q. Witness, when you were making all of these visits to various concentration camps as you have described, were you there on observation visits or were you there for some other purpose?
A. Your Honor, when I visited the concentration camps, then I always had one specific duty as the reason for which I was going there. If I could tell you new comments on concentration camps, I would appreciate it very much because--
Q. No. You were sent there on an official mission each time you went.
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You visited Bergen-Belsen as late as 1945?
A. Yes, 1945, yes, that's correct.
Q. That was primarily a women's camp, was it not?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Well, in 1944 and 1945 did you see any evidences of thousands and thousands of women being starved to death?
A. In Bergen-Belsen, your Honor, no. The first time I was there was in June 1944. At that time I had the duty of visiting the PW camp which was very near the camp of Belsen-Bergen. I was to have certain conferences with the commander of that PW camp in order to discuss to which agency in the army that PW camp could he transferred for purposes of the concentration camp for BelsenBergen. That PW camp which was built for approximately 40,000 people was absolutely empty, while the camp Belsen was only very small and was to be a rest camp. Those inmates who became sick while working for the various industries were to rest there and recuperate in order that they could be used again in labor assignments. Beyond that, Bergen-Belsen was to be used as an internment camp for all male non Jewish inmates as it was in the center of Germay so that the classification or qualification analysts would only have to go to Belsen In order to select their people for the various industries and not just travel from one camp to the other.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS: I didn't ask you for any of that long answer. I just asked you did you see any evidence of thousands of women being slowly starved to death in 1944 in Belsen-Bergen. Now, you could answer that with one word. "Yes" or "no", did you see them there?
A No, your Honor.
Q Did you see the moving pictures of Belsen-Bergen that were taken immediately after the camp was liberated by the Allies?
A Yes, indeed.
Q And you saw the thousands of dead women that had starved to death there in this picture, did you not?
A Yes, I saw there that bodies of many women who had apparently starved to death.
Q Yes. That's all you saw, yourself?
A No, I will go further than that. I will say many of them.
Q Now, as Chief of D-II/1 and as the official responsible for the allocation of labor of the inmates, did you not have to collaborate with other top chiefs in regard to food, clothing and housing and other needs of the inmates in your work of allocation?
A Your Honor, my field of tasks was no independent one. I wasn't the Chief of labor Allocation in concentration camps. That was Maurer.
Q I understand that but you were in Charge of Office D-II?
AA number of field of tasks.
Q Yes.
A Yes, indeed.
Q Now, as that officer, didn't you have to collaborate with those who dealt with food, housing and clothing of the concentration camps inmates?
A No, I didn't, your Honor.
Q That was all independent?
A No, you see the task of collaboration was with the Chief of the Office who knew the conditions out there and who could act indep Court No. II, Case No. 4.endently; after all, I couldn't act independently.
I only had to do what my Chief of Office told me to do. That was as far as my authority extended.
Q I understand that but the authority that he gave you, the authority you acted under, did you not collaborate with these people who had charge of the food, clothing and housing and the necessities of the inmates?
A I never did have such an authority, your Honor, never.
Q All right.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q Witness, you have heard some of the statements made by several witnesses where you have heard of murder and mistreatments of concentration camp inmates by the concentration camp personnel. As a collaborator in Office D-II did you have any knowledge of those things?
A I never heard of anything of murder and mistreatment of concentration camp inmates.
Q Today on the basis of all of the things you learned here in this trial, do you believe that such murders were the result of a system or would you consider that as an execution of pre-arranged plans or would you call it an abuse on the part of the authorities of the camp personnel?
A That question is very, very difficult to answer. The enormous amount of evidence introduced by the prosecution only contains one document in which the words "extermination by labor" is contained and could possibly be brought into connection with those things which went on in the concentration camps or at least apparently did. That was something I will refer to later on in a different connection. We heard several statements by witnesses here and I, myself, during my long custody dealt with lots of literature which concerned the concentration camps. My impression on those things is the following one: Pohl testified here as a witness and gave a character description of Eicke. I, myself, never did know Eicke. Pohl testified about Eicke Court No, II, Case No. 4.that he saw a personal enemy in every political inmate.
I am under the impression that we have other concentration camp commandants who felt the same way about it. And they instructed their staff, not so much the guards, to feel the same way. After the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps was incorporated into the WVHA as Amtsgruppe D many commanders were transferred or re-assigned. They were re-assigned due to corruption, while their criminal character remained undetected, and that was the reason why the Kommandantur was only re-assigned or transferred as far as it was involved in this embezzlement and corruption.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean to tell us that you believe today that there was no national plan for the extermination of the Jews which started at the top level of the Reich?
A No, I don't want to say that, your Honor. I would have come back to that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you already came to it. You suggested that this was all the work of a few political malefactors, villans, in the concentration camps and that it wasn't a national policy. Do you mean that?
A Your Honor, what I mean to say is that this was not a national policy, to exterminate any concentration camps as a matter of principle. That is to say, that the concentration camps were not merely an institution to exterminate every undesirable enemy. One has to see these things in their various phases.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, no one would believe for a minute that it was the policy to exterminate all concentration camp inmates. They were too valuable. They were the means by which Germany expected to win the war but do you recognize today a national policy which started out from Himmler, if not from Hitler, to exterminate all the Jews in Germany.
A There can be no doubt about it, your Honor.
DR. BELZER: Excuse me, your Honor, may I interrupt you for a minute?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course; I interrupted you.
DR. BELZER: I asked the witness if he knew anything about the murder and mistreatment on the part of the guard personnel. The witness deliberately referred to murder and mistreatment outside of the extermination program which is known to you, the extermination policy against the Jews and he only spoke of the smaller things in the concentration camps because I want to deal -- touch upon other things.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean the minor exterminations?
BY DR. BELZER: Yes, to say the single occurrences. Are you through with your answer, witness?
A Yes.
Q In the statements made by the witness Bielski on 14 April 1947 you, yourself, were charged with having committed two murders in the Concentration Camp at Auschwitz. You were alleged to have killed a Jewish inmate in the winter of 1943 or 1944 by breaking his skull with a brick and you are furthermore alleged to have used your method on a Polish Jew by the name of Simon Weiss, whom you caught while he was boiling potatoes and you broke his skull. I ask you, witness, did you do what the witness Bielski said?
A No.
Q Were you ever in the concentration camp of Auschwitz as labor assignment leader?
A No.
Q Did you at any time in any other official capacity belong to the camp personnel of Auschwitz?
A No.
Q Did you at any time visit one of the three protective custody camps in Auschwitz?
A Yes. In the Summer of 1943, at that time there was a labor assignment leader conference in Auschwitz. That was on Friday and Saturday. I did not participate in the conference on Friday because I had to sit at Oranienburg so that in case Pohl should call there would Court No. II, Case No. 4.be somebody there.
That Friday evening I drove to Kattowitz in the night train. I was picked up there and at eight o'clock in the morning I was in Auschwitz. After the breakfast we were taken to the protective custody camp in a bus. There were approximately 20 of us. We visited the Barracks of some inmates which was built of stones and immediately after that, we visited the kitchen of the inmates. All of the inmates were out to work. Then we visited a horse breeding place near the protective custody camp and we also visited a barracks where some inmates were knitting with salvaged wool.
Q While on that visit to the protective custody camp did you go on a motor bike?
A No, I was in there approximately a half an hour or one hour altogether.
Q You stated before that you were in Auschwitz twice. The first time you just described in the Summer of 1943 and then another time in November of 1944. Would you please describe to the Tribunal the duration of and the cause for that second visit to Auschwitz?
A With reference to the first visit I would like to say that immediately after the visit, after the barracks and the kitchen, we drove then up to the Buna factory and we visited that factory there and in the afternoon we went to see the agricultural plant there on some horses. The same evening Maurer and I left for Berlin. The second time was in November 1944. That was the reason why I had gone. My wife during the war had an abortion three times. That was known to Gluecks and he told me that there was a gynecologist in Auschwitz by the name of Clauberg and he proposed to me that I should take my wife down there and have her examined by him. He, himself, contacted Clauberg and Clauberg wrote to us that we should go to Koenigshuette, which is a town in Upper Silesia and that we had to be there in a special hospital on a special day, maybe it was a Sunday, and that he wanted to examine my wife there. We arrived at Koenigshuette in the morning.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the translation has left a wrong im Court No. II, Case No. 4.pression here which might be serious.
I think the witness meant to use the word "miscarriage", rather than abortion. What about the translation?
A Yes, your Honor. "Miscarriage" was the word. In that particular hospital we did not see Clauberg and his secretary told us he was in Auschwitz; thereupon we went to Auschwitz together and we spent the night in a hotel near the station which was a hotel operated by the Waffen SS. That hotel was within three kilometers from the camp. Thereupon, I called up the camp commander, a man called Baer and asked him where Clauberg was. He told me that I could see Clauberg the following day at noon in the Fuehrerheim and I actually went there the following day at noon together with my wife and we spoke to Clauberg.
THE PRESIDENT: I think this answer involved too many details. The interesting fact is he went there but everything that happened is of no consequence.
Q Witness, maybe you will limit yourself. I want you to answer briefly. On that time did you go into the protective custody camp of Auschwitz?
A No.
Q Did you have any connection or contact with the camp personnel?
A Yes. On Monday morning I had a short conversation with Baer who drove me all of the way up to the protective custody camp and he showed me the bomb damage there which had been occasioned by enemy planes dropping bombs.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A ... and then I drove through the agriculture installation there by car, and I went to Auschwitz late in the afternoon, the protective custody camp itself I did not enter.
Q Can you tell the Tribunal the name of the Labor Assignments Leader of the concentration camp?
A The Labor Assignments Leader was first of all Hauptsturmfuehrer Heinz Schwarz; later on it was Obersturmfuehrer Sell. As far as Witness Bielski is concerned--the witness here--I would like to point out the following thing. Bielski declared that I, when he saw me at the time, was Hauptsturmfuehrer. At that time I had not reached that rank. Bielski apparently has got me mixed up with Unterscharfuehrer Sommer, because on Page 365 of the German record he states this Unterscharfuehrer--that he saw him accompanied by a Labor Assignments Leader who also was an N.C.O. I would like to state that in every concentration camp there is only one Labor Assignments Leader. He then states that he saw this Sommer later on accompanied by his superior, a Sturmbannfuehrer. He states that the Sturmbannfuehrer was in charge of the Department of Labor assignments of the inmates of the entire concentration camp of Auschwitz. There was no such Sturmbannfuehrer there. He further states that at the time he saw Sommer with another two NCO's, he showed up at that place on his motor bike. Apparently he remembers one NCO and some more NCO's. On Page 380 of the German record he said that man Sommer who had to distribute labor to the commanders of the assignments and had to carry out the supervision himself and the control. That, however, was never the task of the Labor Assignments Leaders, but it was the task of the labor supervisors, so to say. They were NCO's in the concentration camps and also were under the officers in the protective custody camps. They had to supervise them in their place--in the working place.
Q Witness, the Prosecution last Saturday, while cross-examining the Witness Rammler, stated the assumption that due to the size of the concentration camp Auschwitz, it was necessary to have frequent confer Court No. II, Case No. 4.ences with the Labor Assignments Leaders.
What do you have to say about the Prosecution's statement?
A The Labor Assignments Leader in other Labor concentration camps, as well as Auschwitz, who was the expert for the concentration camp commandant concerning labor assignments questions. I myself couldn't have given him orders about Labor Assignments concentration camps because, as far as that is concerned, they came from the camp commandant. The activity of the Labor Assignments Leader himself was a desk job. That is to say, the Labor Assignments Leader sat at the desk in a manner, if I had to do anything with him in writing, as far as my activity is concerned, and I also did that and have had no reason to go to Auschwitz for that.
Q We shall now come to a different subject. Witness, what do you know...
PRESIDENT: Before you start the new subject we will take the recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q Witness, before I continue your examination, I would like to give you the possibility to briefly clear up two misunderstandings which have arisen so far with the defense. His Honor, Judge Phillips, has asked you before whether you had seen pictures of the starving people in the camp Bergen-Belsen. You answered this question in the affirmative.
A Yes.
Q Therefore, you did not see the corpses themselves, but you only saw the film which has been shown here?
A Yes, I have only seen the film there, and there I saw the corpses for the first time.
Q You have also stated before in connection with the heavy workers' ration cards which were to be issued in the concentration camps, you have spoken of the economic offices. You were probably referring to the food offices, weren't you, but you were not referring to any agencies which had anything to do with the economic enterprises of the WVHA?
A No. I was referring to the agencies which were subordinated to the Reich Food Ministry that were locally competent. They were the locally competent food offices for the civilian population.
Q Witness, what did you know about the execution of medical experiments on concentration-camp inmates?
AAs far as I can recall I knew since the summer of 1942 that medical experiments on human beings were carried out in the concentration camps. Just how the assignments were given and the results of these experiments, the manner in which these experiments were carried out, I did not know. I never saw anything about that, nor have I ever heard anything about it. On one occasion I heard just what type of experiment was concerned, something about the malaria experiments of Professor Schilling at Dachau. The plant manager of the German Equipment Works complained that from his plant skilled workers had been removed by Professor Schilling, who then were unable to work for six weeks.
That was during the time when they would be at Professor Schilling's disposal for experiments. The plant manager at the time requested that from the Office D-II these things should be prohibited in the future. At the time Maurer said that these experiments had been ordered by Himmler or Pohl, and that therefore he would be unable to change anything in that. Otherwise I never had any contact whatsoever with any experiments of any kind.
Q What did you know about these sterilization measures which were carried out on concentration-camp inmates?
A During my activity in the Office D-II I did not hear anything about castrations and sterilizations.
Q In order to enable you to keep your promises which you have given the President this morning, I now would like you to tell us what you know about the special treatment of concentration--camp inmates.
A In February 1943 in the concentration camp Neuengamme a meeting of labor assignment officers took place, and there the reports which I mentioned this morning about the labor assignments of concentration -camp inmates were discussed, on special forms.
The labor assignment offices were given basic instructions just how these reports were to be submitted. That is, how the synopses were to be formulated. In the course of the ensuing discussion the words "special treatment" were mentioned. One labor Assignment officer asked where the inmates which were subjected to "special treatment" should be listed, i.e., whether they should be included in the general figures giving the mortality rates, or if they were to be specially listed in this survey. Maurer did not make any decision in this matter, but he said that the decision would be reached later on. We then returned to Oranienburg.
At Oranienburg I asked Maurer what "special treatment" actually meant. Maurer told me then that this was the killing of insane persons who were incurably insane who were located within the concentration camps, and he told me that a commission of physicians had been sent by the Reich Chancellery to the concentration camps, and that the selection of these people was being carried out very carefully.
That was the first time that I heard anything about "special treatment" in Amtsgruppe D.
THE PRESIDENT: Was that the last that you heard?
WITNESS: No, Your Honor. I shall refer to the subject later on.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't forget.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Did you heard anything about the Euthanasia Program, or did you hear anything about the Action 14-f-13? (Question repeated)
A. The word Euthanasia became known to me for the first time after the capitulation had already taken place. The designation 14-f-13, which apparently was a filemark, does not tell us very much. I cannot recall ever having heard of it during the time of my activity with the Office D-2 in this connection. I only knew the general concept of mercy death; that is, Euthanasia.
In the year 1940, at the hospital where I was located, I came into contact for the first time with this program. At that time this problem was discussed in the hospital pro and con.
Later on, the film "I accuse" was shown in all movie theatres. This film dealt also with that problem, and of course it dealt with it in the positive sense, which was the desire of the State.
Q. Witness, did you, officially or unofficially, make any observations that in the concentration camps certain categories of inmates, like Jews, Gypies, or Russian prisoners of war, were considered to be inferior races, or anti-social elements, and that they were exterminated?
A. No; I never heard that these groups of inmates were considered as anti-social elements. Under anti-social elements, in my opinion--and that is what was mentioned in the newspapers several times -- one considered people who refused to accomodate Germans who had been bombed out, or people who had hoarded food, and similar people.
In such cases the newspapers would then write "because of his anti-social behavior and attitude, he was turned over to a concentration camp." However, in connection with the groups of persons which have been mentioned, I never heard that expression.
Q. Witness, did you know that the concentration camps within the Reich territory were to be cleared of Jews?
A. Yes; Himmler, on the 29th of September, 1942, inspected the concentration camp Sachsenhausen. At that time he was accompanied, as far as I can recall that, by Greeks and Maurer. All the remaining members of agencies were given the strict order for that day not to leave the agencies; that is, from eight o'clock in the morning until seven o'clock in the evening. I believe that was the time when Himmler left. He were actually restricted to our agencies, and we were not allowed to leave them. As far as I am informed, Himmler inspected the concentration camp and also the economic enterprises there. On the following day Maurer compiled a very extensive list of things which Himmler had ordered, and he did that by order of Gluecks. On the fifth of October, by virtue of the orders of Himmler, he issued a letter which has been presented by the Prosecution as Document 3677PS, Exhibit 128, in Document Book 5. This letter states that the concentration camps of the Reich were to be cleared of Jews, and that the Jews were to be transferred to Lublin and Auschwitz.