Q Would you tell me briefly what the functions of the defendant Pook were in Amtsgruppe D-III, office D-III in Amtsgruppe D?
A I only know the defendant Pook since 1943, as far as I recall, and I went to see him in his agency very seldom. There was a man named Schieferer there. The name of his agency was Chief Dentist of the garrison at Oraniensburg and of the concentration camps. That is the way it was listed in the telephone directory, and also that is the way the sign read on his door. It struck me when I went to Dr. Pook's agency in order to, for instance, receive or collect some money for Sport Groups, WHW wedding gifts etc., then I always had to go through that agency in order to see Dr. Pook.
Q Do they have a great many escapes from the English camps?
A You mean while I was interned? Yes, I can recall 20 or 30 such cases in Neuengamme.
Q Out of how many inmates?
A The camp of Neuengamme in 1945 until the middle of 1946 had been subdivided into three camps, to be sure, there were 12,000 men. In November of 1946 there were approximately 6500 left, that is, when I came here.
Q And over how long a period was this?
A In Neuengamme from June 1945 to the first of November 1946.
Q So that Sommer was one of 30 inmates who escaped from a camp varying in size from 6500 to 12,000 over a period of 15 months, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Witness, I believe you said that you were the camp leader in Neuengamme camp, sort of had charge of prisoners there, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct, in camp 3.
Q And when the new prisoners would come, you would take down their names, where they were from?
A Yes.
Q And the general information about them?
A Yes, that is correct, general information about them.
Q. What did you do with that record?
A You mean with all those records? Well, I transferred them immediately, I forwarded them to the G-2 Section.
Q In the camp?
A Yes, of course, in the camp.
Q How long did you know this man Sommer in the camp?
A Ever since his internment there, that is March or April 1946. I can't recall the correct date. March of April, 1946. When he tried to escape it was early in October, I believe.
Q How old a man was he?
A Sommer was approximately 28 years of age. That is, I am just assuming that, of course.
Q What size man was he?
A From 178 to 180 centimeters.
Q What color was his hair and eyes?
A Somewhat red, turning red.
Q Red hair?
A I said somewhat red.
Q What name did you nut down for him when you put down his name when he came to the camp?
A Sommer.
Q Just Sommer?
A No, I put his first name, too. First name, date of birth, his last agency, and his last position, when his activity started, and what he did. In other words, all the information that one needs.
Q Well, what was his first name?
A Well, unfortunately, I can't recall his first name today.
Q Where was he from?
A He was recognized at Hamburg by a former inmate of the concentration camp of Auschwitz.
Q I didn't ask you that. I asked you where he was from, where was his home?
A Oh, let's see. His wife was in Hamburg, that is all he told us.
Q He told you he was from Hamburg?
A That is what he told me, and I noted that.
Q When counsel for the defendant came and asked you did you know of a man by the name of Sommer who had been been in Auschwitz, do you know where he got the information from that you knew a man that had been in Auschwitz by the name of Sommer?
A No. The defense counsel asked me to come and see him, and he told me, "You were a Lagerfuehrer of the camp in Neuengamme?" and I said, "Yes." He asked me, "Do you know a man by the name of Sommer?" And I said, "Yes." And thereupon, I told him exactly as I told the Tribunal now all about it.
Q Then your information about this man Sommer, his activities in Auschwitz, were told to you by somebody else?
A Yes. When that man tried to escape, or rather shall I say, when this Sommer was interrogated by a special commission --
Q I know that. I am just asking you what you said is what somebody told you after he tried to escape, that this man was in Auschwitz and was considered a very bad man there?
A Yes. First of all I found that out from those people who were standing around the place where he tried to escape, and then I can recall a former inmate -- of course, I can't remember his name right now -- but I believe that he can be found out in Neuengamme -he had been released from my camp 3 -- and he described this man Sommer to me in such a way that he was a man who was very brutal and a man who was feared by everybody, a block leader. The man who told me that was again released in Neuengamme, and as far as I can recall he was sent to Luebeck. That inmate also came from Polant.
Q Was the man Sommer that you saw in Neuengamme, was he a captain in the SS?
A You mean that Sommer? No. He was unterscharfuehrer. That is what he stated on his record.
Q He was not a captain in the SS?
A No, he was Unterscharfuehrer, that is NCO, that is according to hiw own statements.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
BY MR. RUDOLF:
Q Witness, was the concentration camp Sachsenhausen at Oranienburg?
A The concentration camp Sachsenhausen was in the Sachsenhausen territory near Oranienburg. To be exact, Oranienburg and Sachsenhausen can be compared to the Nurnberg-Furth Enclave.
Q How close was your office to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp?
A My office was not in the concentration camp Sachsenhausen. Our agency was separated from the camp, and it was outside the camp.
Q I asked you how close it was. I didn't say it was in the camp.
A You mean to our agency? Two minutes on a bicycle.
Q What was it in physical distance, in meters?
A Well, in meters, let's say, from our exits, that is from our office to Sachsenhausen, it was approximately 800 meters.
Q Not quite a half a kilometer. And you still persist in saying that you saw but one transport despite the fact that your office was about 800 meters from the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen?
A Inmate transports that were coming in and inmates who had moved out to go to their working place or had returned from their working place, I saw quite often. I saw them daily because they had to march, in part, at least, past our building in order to get to their working place. In our building also, there were 30 inmates that were employed in various work shops.
Q Then you did have an opportunity to observe the general condition of these inmates?
A Yes, of course, I saw that.
Q What was their condition?
A Their general condition of those inmates whom I saw was up to the last year of the war according to my own personal opinion good and then bad.
MR. RUDOLPH: No further questions, if the Tribunal please.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BELZER:
Q Witness, I think it necessary to ask you a short question about your official activity. Amtsgruppe D in these various offices employed SS-men, SS-NCO's as clerks, and these men had been compiled in one military unit which was called a staff company, and the leader, or the man in charge of that staff, was you, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct. However, I want to rectify the following thing. The leader of that staff company was an officer just like in any other staff company of the German army. I was a staff Master Sergeant in that company. I was the "mother of the company", so to say, and I took care of these people.
Q How did you take care of these people?
A Well, first of all, I trained them on Wednesday afternoons, Saturday afternoons, or Sunday mornings. I had also certain courses to teach them certain things. Furthermore, billeting of these NCO's, and other ranks. Then I had to hold accounts of the various official trips and leaves. Then roll calls; furthermore, clothing, and several other things.
Q And those individual offices of these agencies - you didn't enter at all, did you?
A I did enter those offices once in a while when I had to collect some money for the sports organization Oranienburg. And I collected that money from both officers and NCO's. Or then the winter relief payments. Or when one of the comrades was going to marry I collected money for a wedding present.
Q Mr. Prosecutor has alleged during the cross-examination that you said with reference to Sommer's activity in Office D-2 that you knew all about it. Now, I can't recall your ever having made such a statement. Would you have had the opportunity to make such a statement at all?
A No, I never talked about Sommer's activity. It was not possible for me to possibly gain any insight in those various offices.
Q When answering my questions you stated that Sommer, during the entire time when he served in that office, went on official trips only once or twice?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q I ask you now, did a pass have to be issued for every official trip that was carried out?
A When railroad transportation was used, then a special pass had to be issued along with the official ticket. And those various passes I received. I didn't write them out myself but I received them from my Pay Officer, because that particular pass contained on the backside of it how long these people stayed away and how often they ate there, etc. And I entered those various remarks in a special book, and then those travel orders, those passes for the trips were sent back to my Pay Officer. That is the reason why I can really state that during those official trips Sommer struck me because he did not take too many of them. This travel had to come through my office, and that was one of the regulations that had to be complied with in order not to let anybody abuse the use of the railroads.
Q The Prosecution just asked you before if you had all your knowledge concerning the activity of Sommer who had been interned in Neuengamme from hearsay. I would like to ask you now, witness, when you wrote down the various information concerning Sommer, didn't you learn that from him personally that he was a block leader near Auschwitz?
A Yes, he had stated on the basis of his activity, that is, he had to state his last activity, when in turn he had to tell us his last unit. And as far as people were concerned who came from the concentration camps, they had to write down their particular, specific activity within protective custody camp, in the administration or guard battalion, etc.
Q Your knowledge and your statements which are based on reports from other members of the concentration camp of Auschwitz, only refer to statements on brutality which had been witnessed?
A Yes.
DR. BELZER: Your Honors, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions by Prosecution?
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q The only information you obtained from Sommer at Neuengamme I believe that is the name you mentioned - was where he was last assigned. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q But you never at any time asked him how long he was in that particular camp or in that particular assignment? Did you?
A Yes, I did ask him. I asked him how long he had been there. However, I can not testify before this Tribunal today what exactly it was all about. But those statements should be in Neuengamme, according to my opinion.
Q And those statements set forth how long he was at that particular task?
A No, I believe that those special cards on which those various things were concerned are still in Neuengamme - I mean they are in the files there.
Q That information is among the questions that you submitted to the prisoner as he arrived?
A Yes, that is correct. And I also made them repeat that.
Q Will you describe briefly what these records are in connection with railroad transportation that you made reference to on redirect?
AAre you speaking about these transports of inmates?
Q No, I am speaking about the records you kept with respect to the use of railroads made by the various officials in Office Amtsgruppe D.
A Yes, do you want me to repeat, or what?
Q I would like to go into a little more detail as to what these records were and what your particular function was with respect to them...
A If an officer, an NCO or another rank from that office went on an official trip or then if he vent on leave, then I received from my Pay Officer travel orders at the same time as the tickets for the railroads which had already been written out by the officers.
Q And that was prior to the actual travel?
A Yes, indeed, prior to the actual travel.
Q How many of these records would you say, or requests, were there daily?
A Well, the daily average was two or three.
Q And what did you do with the records, you merely filed them?
A No, I kept a special file of them and when the official trip was over then those passes or travel orders were turned in in my office again, and I just filed them.
Q Well, in other words, you merely were the repository for all of the paper work in connection with official travel?
A No, I just wrote them out for certain trips. I personally only wrote them out when these NCO's and other ranks went on leave. However, when they went on official trips, then they were written out by the respective office, and I only received them in the end in order to file them and enter them in my book.
Q It would have been perfectly possible for the defendant Sommer to have made these trips by car, would it not?
A Yes, of course it would have been possible, but I don't know anything about it because I was not in charge of the motor pool.
MR. RUDOLPH: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: This witness may be excused by the Marshal.
BY DR. BELZER (Counsel for the defendant Sommer):
Q I would like to ask the witness now, in connection with these questions, what would have been the result if a member of Amtsgruppe D would have gone on an official trip without the necessary papers? What I mean to say by that is, would that man have to pay for his own trip himself?
A Well, that wouldn't have worked out very well because it was kind of dangerous for someone to go out on an official trip during the war without having the necessary travel orders and tickets and temporary duty orders.
That was not possible that an official trip was carried out on a train without the necessary orders.
Q With reference to the questions put to you by the Prosecution, I wanted to ask you just one more short question. How many people were there in camp No. 3 when you were in charge of the camp?
A The highest personnel strength at the time was 1,800 men.
Q Eighteen hundred men?
A Yes, 1800 men at the most.
Q And you said 6,000 to the Prosecution.
A Yes, Neuengamme, you see, consisted of three camps, and in this camp No. 3, for most of the time - or shall I say seventy-five per cent of the people - were guard personnel or then camp personnel or then people who were suspected of a war crime, or who had been turned in through transports from Poland, etc.
Q I have nothing else to say.
WITNESS: May I ask one question to the prosecution?
THE PRESIDENT: well, go ahead, state the question anyway. Then we will tell you whether you can ask it.
WITNESS: The Prosecution told me that in the interrogation on the 21st of December, 1946, I stated that the inmate transports were carried out by Office D-2. Even at the time during my interrogation I stated that I didn't know that from my own activity in Amtsgruppe D or Amt 2, but rather that I knew those things on the basis of my activity as a man in charge of the internment camp in Neuengamme. I learned about those things because all the reports which had been written out by these people, which reports had been sent to the G-2 Section, to the Intelligence, all passed through my hands, and I passed them on to the G-2 Section.
THE PRESIDENT: No other questions?
DR. BELZER: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this witness and bring Joachim Caesar.
(The witness was excused)
MR. ROBBINS: I would like for the record to show that the prosecution was not given notice of the calling of this witness, in accordance with the rules, but that no objection will be preferred.
DR. BELZER: The witness, Caesar, was granted me by the Tribunal, if you recall, Your Honor.
MR. ROBBINS: The rules of the court prescibe -
THE PRESIDENT: If you waive time rule, why talk about it. Let's not take any time about it. Let's go ahead.
JOACHIM CAESAR, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, raise you right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q: Witness, please tell us your full name.
A: My full name is Dr. Joachim Caesar.
Q: When and where were you born?
A: I was born on the 30th of May, 1901, in Boppart on the Rhine.
Q: Is it correct that you were in charge of the agricultural agencies in Auschwitz?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: During what time?
A: From early in March, 1942, up to the end.
Q: Did you know the labor assignment leaders of the concentration camp of Auschwitz?
A: Yes, indeed, I did.
Q: What were the names of the labor assignment leaders of the labor camp of Auschwitz within that period of time that you mentioned?
A: The name of one was Schwarz and the name of the other was Sell.
Q: Did you have anything to do on official business with the labor assignment leaders of Auschwitz?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know the Defendant Karl Sommer as a labor assignment leader or did you know him as a colleague of one of the labor assignment leaders in Auschwitz?
A: No.
Q: Would you have had to Know if the Defendant Karl Sommer would have been active as a labor assignment leader in Auschwitz?
A: Yes, I would have had to know.
Q: How long have you known the Defendant Sommer anyway?
A; Well, actually, I only met his here in Nurnberg. That is, it is possible, however, that I saw him before, however, not to such an extent that I could say that I actually became acquainted with him.
Q: In 1943 there was a labor assignment leaders' conference in Auschwitz. Can you recall that the participants of these meetings, visited the agricultural installations there?
A: Yes, I can recall that very well.
Q: Can't you recall that during that visit of the agricultural installations you saw the Defendant Sommer?
A: I can't recall that for sure to an extent where I could actually say, "yes" to that question. I would have to recall certain incidents that accompanied those visits, and I can't, unfortunately.
Q: Can you recall if Maurer participated in that visit?
A: I know that just as little as I know about Sommer, but I assume that.
Q: Did these visitors have to go into one of the three camps when visiting the agricultural installations?
A: No, not when visiting the agricultural installations?
Q: Can you tell the Tribunal how large the entire area of the concentration camp of Auschwitz was?
A: The entire area of the concentration camp of Auschwitz amounted to approximately 3,800 Hektars, or 38 square kilometres.
Q: Can you give us any statements about the kind of motor vehicles which were used by the camp personnel in Auschwitz?
A: When I arrived in Auschwitz we visually had sedans and also a few bicycles. Later on when the lack of gasoline became more and more acute the cars were actually put aside, the sedans, so to say, and, instead of that, we used DKW's small motorcycles, I believe Puch.
Q: What were your observations with reference to the use of a heavy DKW motor bike, that is 500 or 600 cubic centimeters with a side car or with a trailer?
A: I can recall having seen one heavy motor bike which was being used by the motor pool; that is to say, it was being used by that agency which had to deal with all those vehicles. However, I can't recall if that motor bike was a DKW. One time there was another heavy motor bike which I can recall having seen with the Construction Department, Construction Management. I can't recall any other heavy motor bikes, because these machines were not used too much, due to the lack of gasoline.
Q: I shall now give you the following example. Let's assume that the defendant Sommer would have to go from Oranienburg to Auschwitz and that he visited the camp. Now then, in that particular case, would Sommer have used transportation from the concentration camp of Auschwitz?
A: Yes, according to the regulations, he could have used it, however, only if he had a driver who came from the local motor pool.
Q: That is to say, vehicles were not assigned to the visitors of the concentration camp?
A: No, there was no such thing. That was against regulations.
Q: I shall now put before you the affidavit of a former inmate of the concentration camp of Auschwitz. That witness was asked here during this examination to describe one of the occasions on which he had seen the Defendant Sommer and the witness answered, and I shall quote: "Yes, indeed. That was in the winter of 1943 or early in 1944. At that time all the electricians were working together with a detail of masons, the so-called Security Service, and, in my opinion, they were working at a distance of one kilometre from the camp which was near the construction site. We had already set up an electrical installation there in one of the blocks and the last block had not been completed as yet and by that I mean that the last floor had not been set in, nor was the roof ready. That was where the mason details were working. At that time Sommer came in with two of his NCO's on his motor bike. He ran into that block while yelling madly and saw inmates who were not working. Thereupon he knocked a Jew over the head with a brick and I saw the Jew after his death. He broke his skull and that was his method that he used in order to break skulls. Kramer was the man who originated that method." The witness later on stated that Sommer came around on a motor bike from 600 to 700 cubic centimeter capacity with a side car and he also said that he was in Auschwitz constantly as a labor assignment leader. Now, according to this statement that act which has been described here was supposed to have been committed in the first months of 1944. I would like to ask you now, Witness can those statements given by the witness Bielski apply to the Defendant Sommer?
A: According to my statements which I made so far, there must have been a mistake in the two personalities. Sommer at that time was not a labor assignment leader.
Q: Do you know if in the camp personnel in Auschwitz there was anybody else by the name of Sommer, and unterscharfuehrer or sturmbahnfuehrer?
A: No, I can't tell you because I didn't know the names of the NCO's in that camp. I only knew a few of the NCO's and not be name. The only reason I knew them was in connection with working with him. I could only tell you, if I had a picture in front of me.
DR. BELZER: At the present time I have no further questions of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q: Where was your particular office located in connection with the administrative offices in Auschwitz?
A: My office was outside of the camp, to be sure, in the southern part of the camp quite a way from the camp, the so-called place Renliko.
Q: You were in charge of the agricultural installations in Auschwitz, is that correct?
A: Yes, indeed, I was incharge of the agriculture there.
Q: How many prisoners were occupied with that particular detail?
A: Well, the regular personnel strength was approximately 3,000.
Q: And you stated that the camp of Auschwitz was 38 square kilometres in size?
A: Yes, 38 square kilometres, that is to say, 3,800 hectars. That is the entire area of the camp.
Q: Would it have been possible in view of the size of the camp for Sommer to have gone there without your knowledge?
A: It is impossible for the reason that Sommer is alleged to have belonged to an agency which I had to deal with.
Q: Did he ever come there, to your knowledge, for the purpose of conferring with other members in that camp in connection with other labor assignments?
A: I couldn't answer that, because I didn't meet him in any such matters.
Q: It would be possible for him to have gone there for the purpose of discussing labor assignment problems with other members of the Auschwitz camp, would it not?
A: That's possible, yes.
Q: You stated that it was unlikely for someone to have a bike or to take a trip on a motor bike because of the gasoline shortage. Do you know how much gasoline a motor bike consumes?
A: No, there must have been a misunderstanding. I stated that due to the lacke of gasoline only small machines with small cubic centimeter contents could be used.
Q: Did you ever see the Defendant Oswald Pohl in Auschwitz?
A: Yes, indeed.
Q: Very frequently?
A: As far as I can recall, three times.
Q: And what was the purpose of his visit, do you recall?
A: It was a general tour or visit of the camp and also of the installations of the camp and also of the remaining area there.
Q: During what years did these inspection tours take place?
A: I'd say in 1943 and 1944. I can't recall any for sure in 1942. However, it is possible that there was a visit in March, but I was sick at the time.
Q: Did you in the course of your duties at Auschwitz ever see inmates who appeared to be underfed?
A: At that time I only saw inmates who were undernourished due to severe disease.
Q: What do you mean, "undernourished, due to disease"?
A. Well, you see, at that time there were quite a few typhus and typhoid fever epidemics and those people who survived those epidemics had disintegrated physically; I have seen inmates who had those diseases and they worked in my work shop and they rested and recovered slowly.
Q: What was the epidemic rate at Auschwitz?
A: I can't give you a figure. I can only say that from the summer of 1942, as far as I can recall, maybe it was even prior to that, in certain instances that the camp was in quarantine constantly because of the typhus and typhoid fever
Q: Did you ever see any inmates who were mistreated?
A: I only spoke about the size of that enterprise and where I was working with reference to the entire area. I myself was in charge of administering the entire area, which amounted to approximately 3,000 hektars. I only had a very few people working for me. I was technical manager of those enterprises. I had no responsibility whatsoever for the billeting of the inmates nor for the feeding of the inmates.
Q: Witness, I did not ask you that. I asked you if you saw inmates who were mistreated. That can be answered by a yes or no answer.
A: I had to make an interpolation in order to explain to you how far I could gain an insight in things dealing with the camp.
Q: Did you see any prisoners or inmates who were mistreated?
A: No, I didn't. In my presence, no inmates were mistreated.
Q. Did you see any evidence... were there any signs of their having been mistreated?
A. I cannot answer that either because I don't know if these injuries which were there once in a while were due to mistreatment. Of course, there were accidents during work and I believe that there were beatings amongst the inmates and fights. Of course, I had no way of checking up on that and I can give no information on that - as to how these small injuries originated.
Q. Tell me witness did you know whether or not there was a crematory in Auschwitz?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you know whether there were gas chambers in Auschwitz?
A. No, I only found out about that later on.
Q. How long were you in Auschwitz?
A. Three years.
Q. And under your administration was an area of 3,000 hectars?
A. I didn't get that. Repeat that, please.
Q. Under your jurisdiction you had charge of approximately 3,000 hectars in connection with the discharge of your duties?
A. Yes indeed. 3,000 hectars.
Q. You were not aware of the fact that in that 3,000 hectars there was a gas chamber?
A. You see, the area of the camp itself is not contained in that 3,000 hectars. The camp was outside of that area. It was isolated from the remaining area.
Q. Do you know how many Jews were gassed at Auschwitz?
A. No.
Q. Did you know at the time that they were gassed?
A. At that time, no.
Q. Were you a member of the Party?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. What is your Party number?
A. Five hundred something.
Q. And were you a member of the SS?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your SS number?
A. Seventy thousand and something.
Q. And what was your last rank in the SS?
A. I was Obersturmbannfuehrer of the Waffen-SS, retroactively, promoted in 1944, up to that time I was Sturmbannfuehrer as an expert leader.
MR. RUDOLPH: No further questions.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Were you subordinate to D-2?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Do you know who was in D-2?
A. I only knew a few men there, in D-2.
Q. Do you know who was the Amts Chief of D-2?
A. Yes, Gluecks.
Q. You know who was office chief of D-2?
A. Maurer.
Q. Do you know who was under Maurer in his office?
A. I did not know it at the time, but I know it today.
Q. I am talking about what you knew at the time.
A. Yes.
Q. And you know who was under Maurer in D-2?
A. No, I don't recall having known that.
Q. Did you know Summer?
A. No, I didn't
Q. Had you ever seen him before you came to Nurnberg?
A. Your Honor, I stated before that I could not answer that question for sure, I can't say yes or no. It is possible I saw him but I can't recall.
Q. You don't recall having seen him, that you remember?
A. No.
Q. You don't know whether he came to Auschwitz or not?
A. I didn't see him on such occasions for sure. At least, not that I can recall.
Q. If he came to Auschwitz, and in furtherance of his duties as a member of D-2, would there be an occasion for him to see you?
A. There would have been a possibility of his seeing me.
Q. I didn't ask you that. Answer my question. Would there be any reason for him to see you if he came to Auschwitz?
A. No, not an absolute necessity.
Q. You say you were in the camp three years, in Auschwitz?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Where was the crematorium located?
A. The crematory was outside of the camp, in the camp at Birkenau.
Q. How many times did you go there?
A. I didn't go to the camp itself. I shall correct that. I didn't go to the crematory because the area of the camp itself was also closed to me.
Q. How close to the crematorium were the gas chambers?
A. I don't know that.
Q. You didn't know there were gas chambers there, and you had been there three years?
A. No, I didn't find that out.