THE PRESIDENT: No other questions?
DR. BELZER: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this witness and bring Joachim Caesar.
(The witness was excused)
MR. ROBBINS: I would like for the record to show that the prosecution was not given notice of the calling of this witness, in accordance with the rules, but that no objection will be preferred.
DR. BELZER: The witness, Caesar, was granted me by the Tribunal, if you recall, Your Honor.
MR. ROBBINS: The rules of the court prescibe -
THE PRESIDENT: If you waive time rule, why talk about it. Let's not take any time about it. Let's go ahead.
JOACHIM CAESAR, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, raise you right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q: Witness, please tell us your full name.
A: My full name is Dr. Joachim Caesar.
Q: When and where were you born?
A: I was born on the 30th of May, 1901, in Boppart on the Rhine.
Q: Is it correct that you were in charge of the agricultural agencies in Auschwitz?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: During what time?
A: From early in March, 1942, up to the end.
Q: Did you know the labor assignment leaders of the concentration camp of Auschwitz?
A: Yes, indeed, I did.
Q: What were the names of the labor assignment leaders of the labor camp of Auschwitz within that period of time that you mentioned?
A: The name of one was Schwarz and the name of the other was Sell.
Q: Did you have anything to do on official business with the labor assignment leaders of Auschwitz?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know the Defendant Karl Sommer as a labor assignment leader or did you know him as a colleague of one of the labor assignment leaders in Auschwitz?
A: No.
Q: Would you have had to Know if the Defendant Karl Sommer would have been active as a labor assignment leader in Auschwitz?
A: Yes, I would have had to know.
Q: How long have you known the Defendant Sommer anyway?
A; Well, actually, I only met his here in Nurnberg. That is, it is possible, however, that I saw him before, however, not to such an extent that I could say that I actually became acquainted with him.
Q: In 1943 there was a labor assignment leaders' conference in Auschwitz. Can you recall that the participants of these meetings, visited the agricultural installations there?
A: Yes, I can recall that very well.
Q: Can't you recall that during that visit of the agricultural installations you saw the Defendant Sommer?
A: I can't recall that for sure to an extent where I could actually say, "yes" to that question. I would have to recall certain incidents that accompanied those visits, and I can't, unfortunately.
Q: Can you recall if Maurer participated in that visit?
A: I know that just as little as I know about Sommer, but I assume that.
Q: Did these visitors have to go into one of the three camps when visiting the agricultural installations?
A: No, not when visiting the agricultural installations?
Q: Can you tell the Tribunal how large the entire area of the concentration camp of Auschwitz was?
A: The entire area of the concentration camp of Auschwitz amounted to approximately 3,800 Hektars, or 38 square kilometres.
Q: Can you give us any statements about the kind of motor vehicles which were used by the camp personnel in Auschwitz?
A: When I arrived in Auschwitz we visually had sedans and also a few bicycles. Later on when the lack of gasoline became more and more acute the cars were actually put aside, the sedans, so to say, and, instead of that, we used DKW's small motorcycles, I believe Puch.
Q: What were your observations with reference to the use of a heavy DKW motor bike, that is 500 or 600 cubic centimeters with a side car or with a trailer?
A: I can recall having seen one heavy motor bike which was being used by the motor pool; that is to say, it was being used by that agency which had to deal with all those vehicles. However, I can't recall if that motor bike was a DKW. One time there was another heavy motor bike which I can recall having seen with the Construction Department, Construction Management. I can't recall any other heavy motor bikes, because these machines were not used too much, due to the lack of gasoline.
Q: I shall now give you the following example. Let's assume that the defendant Sommer would have to go from Oranienburg to Auschwitz and that he visited the camp. Now then, in that particular case, would Sommer have used transportation from the concentration camp of Auschwitz?
A: Yes, according to the regulations, he could have used it, however, only if he had a driver who came from the local motor pool.
Q: That is to say, vehicles were not assigned to the visitors of the concentration camp?
A: No, there was no such thing. That was against regulations.
Q: I shall now put before you the affidavit of a former inmate of the concentration camp of Auschwitz. That witness was asked here during this examination to describe one of the occasions on which he had seen the Defendant Sommer and the witness answered, and I shall quote: "Yes, indeed. That was in the winter of 1943 or early in 1944. At that time all the electricians were working together with a detail of masons, the so-called Security Service, and, in my opinion, they were working at a distance of one kilometre from the camp which was near the construction site. We had already set up an electrical installation there in one of the blocks and the last block had not been completed as yet and by that I mean that the last floor had not been set in, nor was the roof ready. That was where the mason details were working. At that time Sommer came in with two of his NCO's on his motor bike. He ran into that block while yelling madly and saw inmates who were not working. Thereupon he knocked a Jew over the head with a brick and I saw the Jew after his death. He broke his skull and that was his method that he used in order to break skulls. Kramer was the man who originated that method." The witness later on stated that Sommer came around on a motor bike from 600 to 700 cubic centimeter capacity with a side car and he also said that he was in Auschwitz constantly as a labor assignment leader. Now, according to this statement that act which has been described here was supposed to have been committed in the first months of 1944. I would like to ask you now, Witness can those statements given by the witness Bielski apply to the Defendant Sommer?
A: According to my statements which I made so far, there must have been a mistake in the two personalities. Sommer at that time was not a labor assignment leader.
Q: Do you know if in the camp personnel in Auschwitz there was anybody else by the name of Sommer, and unterscharfuehrer or sturmbahnfuehrer?
A: No, I can't tell you because I didn't know the names of the NCO's in that camp. I only knew a few of the NCO's and not be name. The only reason I knew them was in connection with working with him. I could only tell you, if I had a picture in front of me.
DR. BELZER: At the present time I have no further questions of this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q: Where was your particular office located in connection with the administrative offices in Auschwitz?
A: My office was outside of the camp, to be sure, in the southern part of the camp quite a way from the camp, the so-called place Renliko.
Q: You were in charge of the agricultural installations in Auschwitz, is that correct?
A: Yes, indeed, I was incharge of the agriculture there.
Q: How many prisoners were occupied with that particular detail?
A: Well, the regular personnel strength was approximately 3,000.
Q: And you stated that the camp of Auschwitz was 38 square kilometres in size?
A: Yes, 38 square kilometres, that is to say, 3,800 hectars. That is the entire area of the camp.
Q: Would it have been possible in view of the size of the camp for Sommer to have gone there without your knowledge?
A: It is impossible for the reason that Sommer is alleged to have belonged to an agency which I had to deal with.
Q: Did he ever come there, to your knowledge, for the purpose of conferring with other members in that camp in connection with other labor assignments?
A: I couldn't answer that, because I didn't meet him in any such matters.
Q: It would be possible for him to have gone there for the purpose of discussing labor assignment problems with other members of the Auschwitz camp, would it not?
A: That's possible, yes.
Q: You stated that it was unlikely for someone to have a bike or to take a trip on a motor bike because of the gasoline shortage. Do you know how much gasoline a motor bike consumes?
A: No, there must have been a misunderstanding. I stated that due to the lacke of gasoline only small machines with small cubic centimeter contents could be used.
Q: Did you ever see the Defendant Oswald Pohl in Auschwitz?
A: Yes, indeed.
Q: Very frequently?
A: As far as I can recall, three times.
Q: And what was the purpose of his visit, do you recall?
A: It was a general tour or visit of the camp and also of the installations of the camp and also of the remaining area there.
Q: During what years did these inspection tours take place?
A: I'd say in 1943 and 1944. I can't recall any for sure in 1942. However, it is possible that there was a visit in March, but I was sick at the time.
Q: Did you in the course of your duties at Auschwitz ever see inmates who appeared to be underfed?
A: At that time I only saw inmates who were undernourished due to severe disease.
Q: What do you mean, "undernourished, due to disease"?
A. Well, you see, at that time there were quite a few typhus and typhoid fever epidemics and those people who survived those epidemics had disintegrated physically; I have seen inmates who had those diseases and they worked in my work shop and they rested and recovered slowly.
Q: What was the epidemic rate at Auschwitz?
A: I can't give you a figure. I can only say that from the summer of 1942, as far as I can recall, maybe it was even prior to that, in certain instances that the camp was in quarantine constantly because of the typhus and typhoid fever
Q: Did you ever see any inmates who were mistreated?
A: I only spoke about the size of that enterprise and where I was working with reference to the entire area. I myself was in charge of administering the entire area, which amounted to approximately 3,000 hektars. I only had a very few people working for me. I was technical manager of those enterprises. I had no responsibility whatsoever for the billeting of the inmates nor for the feeding of the inmates.
Q: Witness, I did not ask you that. I asked you if you saw inmates who were mistreated. That can be answered by a yes or no answer.
A: I had to make an interpolation in order to explain to you how far I could gain an insight in things dealing with the camp.
Q: Did you see any prisoners or inmates who were mistreated?
A: No, I didn't. In my presence, no inmates were mistreated.
Q. Did you see any evidence... were there any signs of their having been mistreated?
A. I cannot answer that either because I don't know if these injuries which were there once in a while were due to mistreatment. Of course, there were accidents during work and I believe that there were beatings amongst the inmates and fights. Of course, I had no way of checking up on that and I can give no information on that - as to how these small injuries originated.
Q. Tell me witness did you know whether or not there was a crematory in Auschwitz?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you know whether there were gas chambers in Auschwitz?
A. No, I only found out about that later on.
Q. How long were you in Auschwitz?
A. Three years.
Q. And under your administration was an area of 3,000 hectars?
A. I didn't get that. Repeat that, please.
Q. Under your jurisdiction you had charge of approximately 3,000 hectars in connection with the discharge of your duties?
A. Yes indeed. 3,000 hectars.
Q. You were not aware of the fact that in that 3,000 hectars there was a gas chamber?
A. You see, the area of the camp itself is not contained in that 3,000 hectars. The camp was outside of that area. It was isolated from the remaining area.
Q. Do you know how many Jews were gassed at Auschwitz?
A. No.
Q. Did you know at the time that they were gassed?
A. At that time, no.
Q. Were you a member of the Party?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. What is your Party number?
A. Five hundred something.
Q. And were you a member of the SS?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your SS number?
A. Seventy thousand and something.
Q. And what was your last rank in the SS?
A. I was Obersturmbannfuehrer of the Waffen-SS, retroactively, promoted in 1944, up to that time I was Sturmbannfuehrer as an expert leader.
MR. RUDOLPH: No further questions.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Were you subordinate to D-2?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Do you know who was in D-2?
A. I only knew a few men there, in D-2.
Q. Do you know who was the Amts Chief of D-2?
A. Yes, Gluecks.
Q. You know who was office chief of D-2?
A. Maurer.
Q. Do you know who was under Maurer in his office?
A. I did not know it at the time, but I know it today.
Q. I am talking about what you knew at the time.
A. Yes.
Q. And you know who was under Maurer in D-2?
A. No, I don't recall having known that.
Q. Did you know Summer?
A. No, I didn't
Q. Had you ever seen him before you came to Nurnberg?
A. Your Honor, I stated before that I could not answer that question for sure, I can't say yes or no. It is possible I saw him but I can't recall.
Q. You don't recall having seen him, that you remember?
A. No.
Q. You don't know whether he came to Auschwitz or not?
A. I didn't see him on such occasions for sure. At least, not that I can recall.
Q. If he came to Auschwitz, and in furtherance of his duties as a member of D-2, would there be an occasion for him to see you?
A. There would have been a possibility of his seeing me.
Q. I didn't ask you that. Answer my question. Would there be any reason for him to see you if he came to Auschwitz?
A. No, not an absolute necessity.
Q. You say you were in the camp three years, in Auschwitz?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Where was the crematorium located?
A. The crematory was outside of the camp, in the camp at Birkenau.
Q. How many times did you go there?
A. I didn't go to the camp itself. I shall correct that. I didn't go to the crematory because the area of the camp itself was also closed to me.
Q. How close to the crematorium were the gas chambers?
A. I don't know that.
Q. You didn't know there were gas chambers there, and you had been there three years?
A. No, I didn't find that out.
Q. Didn't you know that there were thousands and thousands of people gassed there and burned there the three years that you were there?
A. I only found that out slowly, it was only in 1944 that I found out about it, and not prior to that.
Q. Well, you were there in 1944, were you not?
A. I didn't get that.
Q. You were in the camp at Auschwitz in 1944?
A. No, I was not in the camp in 1944. That is a mistake I had the entire area outside of the camp. I was not a member of the Kommandanturstab.
Q. You were in the area around the camp and were in charge of the area around the camp?
A. The area of the camp was not subordinate to me, no.
Q. I didn't say anything about the camp being subordinate to you.
A. Then I probably misunderstood your question, your Honor, I am sorry.
Q. You were doing the same work in 1944 at Auschwitz that you were doing in 1943?
A. With certain changes, yes.
Q. Well, you were there any way.
A. Yes, indeed, I was.
Q. How did you find out about people being gassed and being burned to death in 1944?
A. Yes, I found out about it already.
Q. I say, how did you find out?
A. I am sorry, I didn't catch that question. I was not asked how. I heard of rumors. I tried to listen to those rumors and to investigate them. On the occasion of a visit of the then gauleiter, his name was Bracht, I heard him asking Hoess, who was commandant at the time, something to the effect that there were so many rumors around here about Auschwitz, and Hoess told him those are false ones.
Later on I heard other rumors. After those rumors repeated themselves all the time I myself could not check up on them because every time I tried to investigate those rumors I had failed. That is the reason I had the assumption there was something to those rumors.
Q. Did you see the transports come in there, full of weak people, and see them sent right on to the gas chamber, and then burned?
A. No, I didn't. I saw transports from the station to the camp only three times altogether, and I had no knowledge whatsoever of those transports.
Q. Were you there in the fall 1941 when Pohl came to inspect the camp?
A. In 1941 I had not been in Auschwitz as yet.
Q. I said 1943. I beg your pardon.... I meant 1943.
A. In 1943, yes, I was there, I imagine.
Q. What time in the year did he come?
A. I recall a visit in the spring.
Q. Do you recall a visit in the fall of 1943?
A. No, I cannot recall any accompanying circumstances. However, yes, that is quite possible there was a second visit around that period of time.
Q. Do you remember a visit in 1944?
A. Yes, indeed. That was in the summer of 1944.
Q. How many people did Pohl bring with him on his inspection tour in 1943 -- either the spring or the fall?
A. I cannot recall the exact number.
Q. About the number.....
A. There were a very few there. Very few, particularly, participated in the visit. There were several installations there.
I can only recall having seen Pohl.
Q. Do you remember him going over to the crematorium and inspecting that while he was there?
A. I don't know that because I only participated in those visits when agriculture was concerned.
Q. I understood you to say that he inspected all of the installations of the camp while he was there.
A. That is absolutely correct. However, I did not participate in the entire visit. I only participated in that inspection in so far as my own agricultural enterprises were concerned.
Q. The crematorium was there when he visited and inspected the installations, was it not?
A. At the time, yes.
Q. Do you know whether anybody was burned that day in the crematorium or not, the day he inspected the camp?
A. I cannot say yes, because I don't know that. I can't answer that question. If I wanted to answer that question I would have had to see it myself.
Q. How long was Pohl there, on this inspection tour?
A. During the spring inspection of 1943 I believe he stayed there for one day and during that visit, in spring or in the fall, I cannot recall how long he stayed there. In 1944 I believe that he was there for a day and a half.
Q. It took from a day to a day and a half to inspect all the installations of that camp, and the surroundings, did it not?
A. Well, the visit of the agricultural installations alone, if one only wanted to see more or less everything that was there, would take over a half a day.
Q. I am talking about all of the installations of the camp.
A. I am sorry, Your Honor, I did not know the entire installations of the camp and therefore I cannot judge myself how much time was taken up in order to see the entire camp. What I wanted to say was that for the agricultural installations alone you needed a half a day.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court will recess until Monday morning at 0930 hours. The witness will be removed to the Marshal after the Court recesses.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours Monday, 30 June 1947.)
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal II Case 4, in the Matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 30 June 1947, 0930, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL.: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Courtroom.
KARL SOMMER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
Be seated, please.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Witness, will you please tell me your first and last names, please?
A. My name is Karl Sommer.
Q. Where and when were you born?
A. I was born on the 25th of March in Cologne on the Rhine.
Q. Would you please give the Tribunal a short description of your background and your curricula vitae until you joined the RAD, the Reich Labor Service?
A. My father was a merchant in Cologne, For my first education I attended the local school. At the same time or after that the Oberrealschule in Cologne. In 1928 my father's business collapsed and in 1929 I had to leave the school. On 1 April 1929 I joined the firm Richard Jacobi in an Apprenticeship. I finished that apprenticeship on 31 March 1932. I remained with that firm up to August 1934 as an employee. Approximately September 1933 I volunteered to the Allgemeine-
SS, the general SS and on 30 January 1934 I became an SS soldier, SS man, and in 1935 I was promoted to SS-Rottenfuehrer, an NCO rank. Between August 1934 and approximately May 1935 I was out of a job. It was in the month of May 1935 that I became a digger when they were excavating a pre-historic settlement near Cologne. The City of Cologne was employing me at the time.
On the basis of that work I was transferred to Berlin in September 1935 and again I was digging near Berlin. Again I was working on a pre-historic settlement. I was being employed by the State Museum in Berlin. On 1 April 1936 I was drafted into the Reich Labor Service under the labor conscription law.
Q. Witness, were you a member of the Hitler Youth during that time?
A. No, from 1928 to 1933 I was first a member of the Buendisch Jugend and then later on I was a member of the German Boy Scouts. However, these organizations were transferred into the Hitler Youth in 1933 I resigned from all of them.
Q. Would you describe to the Tribunal briefly your career with the Reich Labor Service and after that, your service in the Army?
A. I was in the Reich Labor Service up until 26 October 1937 and after that I was conscripted effective 11 November 1937 and I had to report to infantry regiment 68 in Brandenburg. On 1 November 1938 I became a corporal and at the same time a cadet. On 1 July 1939 I was promoted to an NCO in the reserve. On 31 August 1939 my service with the Army would have been over. However, the war broke out. I started out in the Polish campaign together with my unit and at the end of the Polish campaign together with my unit and at the Polish campaign, that is to say, from November 1939 to January 1940 I was sent to the War School in Dueberitz. On 1 December I became a Sergeant in the Reserve. At the end of my service in that War School I was transferred back to my troop and I participated in the French campaign. On 1 June 1940 I was promoted to a Lieutenant of the Reserve. On June 9th 1940 I was wounded severely when we crossed the Aisne. Then I was transferred into my home-land and I was in an army hospital for seven months.
On 26 March 1941 I was released from the army after I had been declared 4-H, not fit for service.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal something about the nature and the results of that wound?
A. I was shot in my leg, that is to say, the right joint of the foot was shot out. That part of the foot is missing.
Q. Witness, what were your connections with the SS during the time between the 1st of April 1936 and up to your release from the Wehrmacht?
A. My membership in the Allgemeine SS was resting. That is to say, I didn't do any service nor did I pay any contributions nor I wasn't sent to any special course nor was I used for anything else.
Q. Were you a member of the NSDAP?
A. No.
Q. How was it then that when you were a member of the SS you were not a member of the Party?
A. When I applied for my participation in the Allgemeine-SS in 1933 the Party was closed, so to say. No new members would be conscripted in the Party. In 1936 I was called on for service and according to the prevailing regulations I couldn't join the Party while I was a volunteer. In July 1941 I was relieved from the army according to the prevailing regulations. I would have had to join the Party if I would have made the necessary application for that. However, I never applied because I wasn't interested in it and I was never forced to write out such an application.
Q. Witness, would you tell this tribunal how you got a job with the German Earth and Stone Works, when you started working, what your official position was, what your official tasks were you had to perform in that organization, that is to say, the DEST?
A. After my release from the army hospital I was transferred from the Army Release Center in Cologne. I reported there and it was a task of the Army Release Center to find me a job.
The Army Release Center was not in a position to do so in Cologne. That is the reason why in January or February 1942, 1941 to be exact, I went to Berlin because I had spent my service in the labor service in the Army near Berlin and I knew Berlin very well and I tried to got a job there through the Veterans Welfare Service and to be transferred to some specific duties somewhere in Germany. The Veterans Welfare Office refused to do so because I was domiciled in Cologne and therefore they couldn't help me. I then went to the Labor Office Berlin, Wilmers-dorf and that office also told me it wasn't possible to get me a job in Berlin because Berlin was a closed city. That means that nobody from outside could go and live in Berlin, and That, therefore, I couldn't even get a job.
During that time I lived in the Hotel Am Zoo. Walking around in Berlin I saw a sign on one of the houses, "SS Veterans Welfare and Care Administration". As I tried several times to get a job with the SS Labor Office and the other labor offices and I didn't succeed in doing so I walked in that agency there and I was received very cordially. The man who received me there told me he was very glad to see somebody whom he could get a job and if I would have been a member of the Waffen-SS I wouldn't have been released from the Army due to my wounds. He told me there were quite a number of vacancies there and I was given about ten addresses of firms in Berlin which were looking for labor. I went to see those firms one after the other. Most of these people were looking for men to look after plant security and ARP. As I was still limping at the time with the help of two walking sticks I was received rather coldly.
The last firm I went to was the DEST, the German Earth and Stone Works. I went to see a civilian there, the personnel chief, and that man told me that he needed somebody for this Department Bookkeeping in the DEST. That, he wanted an assistant and that I could actually enter that department if I wanted to do so. It was satisfactory for me and I agreed. I returned to Cologne then in a few days later I received a letter that the DEST G. m. b. H. where the agreement had been laid down and confirmed. The letter was addressed Lieutenant of Reserve Karl Sommer. Approximately 14 days later I received an additional letter headed the "Reichs Leader SS, the Chief of the Main Office Administration and Economy." That agency informed me approximately of the following:
"The DEST G. m. b. H. which was under my subordination has appointed you an employee of that organization. I agree with appointment and would appreciate if you would start your service on 1 March 1941. However, you are not employed in the Department Bookkeeping as agreed but you will be employed in Inmate Labor Assignment."
Well, on 1 March 1941 I started my position in the DEST. The Department Inmate Labor assignment at the time was occupied by 3 civilian employees when I entered and one typist. The man in charge was a man by the name of Scharnweber. The other civilian was a soldier who was on leave, the third was a civilian also and I was the fourth civilian member. The task of Department Inmate Labor consisted of typical office work. No local inspections were carried out by that department. The tasks were laid down in an organizational charts. They were the supervision of the Inmate Labor Assignment as laid down in labor regulations in 1938 to the effect that should there be difficulty between the Kommandanturs and the Labor Manager which could not be taken care of locally, the managers would have to report those incidents to us and we would try to eliminate those difficulties through the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps and Department 1-5 there. At the same time I had to get the protective clothing. Such as, leather aprons for the people who were cutting the stone, stonecutters, I had to get additional food as bonuses. I had to get additional tobacco as bonuses. Also, later on I had to work out regulations and directions concerning payment of bonuses to the inmates. Furthermore, according to the organizational chart I had to participate when establishing labor camps when it became necessary. Then I had to carry out negotiations with agencies in Berlin.
The DEST G. m. b. H. approximately in the Spring of 1941 had received an order to train stone-cutters and masons in order to eliminate the hardships that prevailed among the masons. The aim was to put at the disposal of the Reich well-trained masons and stone-cutters. We knew ever from the beginning that that work could only be useful if the inmates would also be used as masons or stone-cutters in their civilian profession after they had been trained and released. That was the reason why in June 1941 negotiations were started with the Reich Labor Ministry, which are contained in Document NO-2309, Exhibit 315, in Book No. 11 which book was introduced by the prosecution.