JUDGE MUSMANNO: I did not gain the impression that this witness was brought here as an expert as to the office details or the workings of that organization.
MR. RUDOLPH: You are quite right, your Honor, but it was my intention that since we have this witness here as a witness for the defense concerning D-3 it would be a good thing for the Court to get a general background of what the Amtsgruppe D was concerned with, and on the question of these other offices.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: We certainly know what Office D-3 was and it is not necessary to waste our time unless you have some specific question concerning his general knowledge.
MR. RUDOLPH: I have one other ---- pardon --- The witness has testified - if the Tribunal please - that he is fully informed about the activities of Sommer. Yet when we asked him what he knew about the various offices and what he was concerned with, he professes complete ignorance - which shows that the witness obviously is not familiar with the functions of Sommer.
As a matter of fact that was the next question I was going to pay to the witness, if the Tribunal please.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q. In other words, witness, you know very little about the functions of Amtsgruppe D, other than what you learned from this list that you had, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And you would have no knowledge of the goings and comings of the defendant Sommer, would you, witness?
A. Yes, indeed. No knowledge whatsoever.
Q. And he could have been at Auschwitz a great many times, as far as your actual knowledge is concerned, is that correct, witness?
A. Would you repeat the question, please, I didn't understand you.
Q. Then he could have been at Auschwitz a great many times without your knowledge, is that correct, Mr. Witness?
A. I could not tell you that.
Q. I direct your attention to an interrogation conducted by Mr. Wolf of the Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes on the 21st of December 1946. Do you recall any of the details in connection with that interrogation, Mr. Witness?
A. You mean on the 21st of December 1946, let us say ..... yes, I was interrogated then.
Q. By Mr. Wolf, is that correct?
A. Yes, Mr. Wolf.
Q. Were you subjected to any duress, or coercion, in the course of that interrogation, Mr. Witness?
A. No, I was not placed under duress.
Q. And you were properly sworn in, and you swore to tell the truth, is that correct?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And you are familiar with the German language, are you not?
A. Yes.
Q. That is the language in which the interrogation was conducted, was it not?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Mr. Witness, is there any distinction in the German language between the word "know" and the word "assume"?
A. Well, how do you mean that...in what connection. ....I don't get that.
Q. Definition of the word. Is there a distinction between the word "known" and the word "assume". Do they have a different connotation in the German language?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And when you were asked the question - Do you know that Sommer was deputy to Maurer, you replied "positively" - and I quota: ".... the only one, Hauptsturmfuehrer Sommer was a deputy of Maurer.
He has deputized for Maurer often." Is that correct?
A. Well, I deducted that from the fact that Standartenfuehrer Maurer went on official trips quite often, and Sommer was the SS leader who was at the top of the seniority list in that office. There were other leaders there, too. And I told that to Mr. Wolf.
Q. But when you were asked the question you replied he was the only one, is that correct?
A. Well, Sommer was the man who was on top of the list according to seniority and according to my opinion I thought he was. That was the reason why I said he deputized for him. There was no official deputy in any office, nor was any deputy contained on that list. For instance, if a chief of office went on an official trip then the man on the top of the seniority list, the SS leader of that office, would certainly deputize for him.
Q. Then, in other words by reason of his office, or his rank in the SS. Sommer was deputy of Maurer, is that correct? In your opinion?
A. Yes, in my opinion that is correct. In my opinion he was the man at the top of the seniority list and he had been working there for three years.
Q. And you stated positively that he was the deputy to Maurer?
A. Well, at least I assumed that.
Q. Witness, I merely ask if you stated that at the interrogation. You may either answer that with a yes or a no.
A. Yes, that is correct. I said that during the interrogation.
Q. You were perfectly free to make any answer you cared to make at the interrogation, is that correct, witness?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You stated further in that interrogation, Mr. Witness, that Sommer arranged personally for the transportation of inmates, is that correct?
A. At the time I said that Office D-2 was competent for the transportation of the inmates for labor assignment, and that they were responsible for that transportation.
Q. I quote from the transcript of that interrogation the following question: "Now, has Maurer or Sommer arranged personally for the transportation of the inmates?" Your answer was, "Yes, in Office D11." Did you make that answer?
A. Yes, that is correct, I gave that answer to be sure.
Q. Now, you said further in this that he gave the orders or made the arrangements by teletype or radio, do you recall that?
A. Yes, that is correct. I said that, and that on the basis of my experience.
Q. You will have an opportunity to explain latter if you want to, Witness. You were perfectly free to make any answer that you wished to in the course of that interrogation, even to this question, were you not?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You also said, Witness, that the condition of these witnesses was deplorable, they were underfed and were in a very bad physical state, is that not correct?
THE PRESIDENT: You don't mean "witnesses". You used the word "witnesses". You meant prisoners, inmates?
MR. RUDOLPH: Thank you, prisoners or inmates.
A. Yes, that is correct. The transport that I saw in January or February at Sachsenhausen had several inmates in it, and all the inmates gave the impression to have been very badly fed.
Q. (By Mr. Rudolph) I think you said that the labor assignment was managed by Office D-II, who had to take care that such transportation was carried out properly, conscientiously and honestly, and that in your opinion the actual care given to these prisoners was criminal?
A. Yes, I believe as far as the inmates were concerned that were on that transport, they all looked very, very bad. Where the inmates came from, I do not know.
Q. Witness, is that the only transport about which you can say that?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. How long were you in Oranienburg?
A. From 1941 until the end.
Q. How often did transports come into Oranienburg?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Well, what would you say, pretty regularly, very rarely?
A. That was the only transport I ever saw.
Q. Was Auschwitz a very important camp in the concentration-camp set-up, Witness?
A. I don't know that. It was at least the largest one.
Q. And certainly as the largest camp it would have a great many problems in connection with the labor allocation, would it not, Witness?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Well, what would you assume? I say "assume" now, and not "know".
A. Well, I assume that that is what it was.
Q. And it would be perfectly logical for Sommer in the discharge of his duties as deputy to Maurer to make frequent trips up to Auschwitz, would it not?
A. Well, he took very few official trips really.
Q. I asked you whether or not it would be logical, in view of the fact that Auschwitz was the largest concentration camp, for Defendant Sommer to have taken a great many trips to Auschwitz in connection with his duties as deputy to Maurer?
A. All I can say is that as long as my activity lasted, and as long as I have known Sommer, his official trips amounted to very few ones.
Q. Then you have stated -
THE PRESIDENT: You just told us you didn't know how many trips he did make and had no way of knowing.
THE INTERPRETER: What was that again, please?
THE PRESIDENT: You just told us you didn't know how many trips Sommer made, and that you had no way of knowing.
Why do you say then that he only took a few?
THE WITNESS: Well, I can recall that Sommer only took very few official trips.
THE PRESIDENT: Only a few that you knew about?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that I knew about, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: And as you said before, he could have taken a hundred without you knowing it?
THE WITNESS: Well, I said that could have been, because after all I didn't control those various agencies or the officers. I was only responsible for NCO's or other ranks. I was not competent for controlling the officers, or controlling their duty, whether they appeared for their duty or not.
THE PRESIDENT: And you didn't know whether they appeared for duty or not?
THE WITNESS: No, that was not know to me, no, not as far as officers were concerned.
DR. BELZER: Witness, do you recall that I, in this connection, asked you if you knew, and if so where you gained your knowledge from, if and how many official trips Sommer made?
THE PRESIDENT: You must not interrupt the cross-examination. You can cross-examine again after the Prosecution is through if you wish.
DR. BELZER: I am sorry, your Honor, but that question was caused by your question. You see, I just, I didn't recall his having said that, and I just wanted to tell you what he had said answering my question.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, write it down and tell me about it later.
Q. (By. Mr. Rudolph) Now, getting back to the question which I put to you, Witness, would it be possible, or would it be logical for the Defendant Sommer to have made trips, and a great many trips to Auschwitz in connection with his duties in D-II, in view of the fact that Auschwitz was the largest concentration camp?
A. I can't tell you that.
Q. No, you can't, Witness. I merely asked you whether you could assume that or whether it would be logical.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, why don't you argue to the Court that it would be logical?
MR. RUDOLPH: I will later.
A. Well, it could be logical.
MR. RUDOLPH: Thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Rudolph) Now, Witness, you, in connection with some statements propounded to you by Sommer's counsel, stated that the SS uniform entailed boots usually. Will you explain what you meant by the word "usually"?
A. With the word "usually"?
Q. Yes. that is what come over the English translation.
A. The NCO's and other ranks, as long as they were on duty, were their boots, and with their pants tucked in while they were on duty. As I said before, that was the official uniform. I never saw Sommer wearing that.
Q. By the word "usually" though, one would imply that you did see instances in which boots were not worn, is that not correct, Witness?
A. Yes, of course it occurred once in a while that the Fuehrers came in wearing long trousers, but that only occurred very seldom.
Q. But it did occur so that it is possible for other people to wear long trousers in addition to the Defendant Sommer?
A. Yes, however quite seldom, quite seldom.
Q. Now, you say that you don't know whether Sommer had a motor bike, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct. I don't know anything about it.
Q. Tell me, Witness, if you saw a friend of yours being stoned to death, would you recall the type of boots that his assailant wore?
A. What do you mean?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, I think that is argument to the Court.
MR. RUDOLPH: Thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Rudolph) Witness, when did you discuss your testimony prior to your coming here with any members of the defense counsel or representatives of the defense counsel?
A. Yesterday morning.
Q. And what was the general nature of that discussion?
A. Well, the general nature of that discussion was I was told that I would have to appear at this Tribunal today as a witness.
Q. Did you go over the testimony that you were going to give in any detail or generally?
A. Yes, we spoke in the general terms. We discussed it in general terms.
Q. What did you discuss generally? Would you just give me a brief resume?
A. We discussed the questions which were put to me today by counsel, were discussed yesterday already.
Q. You say you cannot recall the first name of this other Sommer that you described in your direct examination?
A. No, I don't know his first name.
Q. How did you recall that you knew him?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. How did you recall that you knew this particular Sommer?
A. How did I recall that? Well, about eight days ago the counsel called me, and he wanted to know if I knew a Sommer, a man by the name of Sommer in Neuengamme, if I knew him on the basis of my activities in the camp at the time.
Q. You were stationed at Oranienburg, is that not correct?
A. Yes, I was stationed at Oranienburg.
Q. How did it happen - your knowledge of this other Sommer would be based upon hearsay evidence that you received from other inmates at this camp where you came from?
A. I only met the man while I was interned, when I was in charge of an internment camp at Neuengamme.
Q. And you know nothing about the truth of these stories that are being circulated about this other Sommer?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You say defense counsel called you about two weeks ago about this matter?
A. Just a moment, please, on the 16th of June, I believe.
Q. Would it be logical for you to know such an individual if he would come there?
A. You mean this man Sommer here? Yes.
Q Would you tell me briefly what the functions of the defendant Pook were in Amtsgruppe D-III, office D-III in Amtsgruppe D?
A I only know the defendant Pook since 1943, as far as I recall, and I went to see him in his agency very seldom. There was a man named Schieferer there. The name of his agency was Chief Dentist of the garrison at Oraniensburg and of the concentration camps. That is the way it was listed in the telephone directory, and also that is the way the sign read on his door. It struck me when I went to Dr. Pook's agency in order to, for instance, receive or collect some money for Sport Groups, WHW wedding gifts etc., then I always had to go through that agency in order to see Dr. Pook.
Q Do they have a great many escapes from the English camps?
A You mean while I was interned? Yes, I can recall 20 or 30 such cases in Neuengamme.
Q Out of how many inmates?
A The camp of Neuengamme in 1945 until the middle of 1946 had been subdivided into three camps, to be sure, there were 12,000 men. In November of 1946 there were approximately 6500 left, that is, when I came here.
Q And over how long a period was this?
A In Neuengamme from June 1945 to the first of November 1946.
Q So that Sommer was one of 30 inmates who escaped from a camp varying in size from 6500 to 12,000 over a period of 15 months, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Witness, I believe you said that you were the camp leader in Neuengamme camp, sort of had charge of prisoners there, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct, in camp 3.
Q And when the new prisoners would come, you would take down their names, where they were from?
A Yes.
Q And the general information about them?
A Yes, that is correct, general information about them.
Q. What did you do with that record?
A You mean with all those records? Well, I transferred them immediately, I forwarded them to the G-2 Section.
Q In the camp?
A Yes, of course, in the camp.
Q How long did you know this man Sommer in the camp?
A Ever since his internment there, that is March or April 1946. I can't recall the correct date. March of April, 1946. When he tried to escape it was early in October, I believe.
Q How old a man was he?
A Sommer was approximately 28 years of age. That is, I am just assuming that, of course.
Q What size man was he?
A From 178 to 180 centimeters.
Q What color was his hair and eyes?
A Somewhat red, turning red.
Q Red hair?
A I said somewhat red.
Q What name did you nut down for him when you put down his name when he came to the camp?
A Sommer.
Q Just Sommer?
A No, I put his first name, too. First name, date of birth, his last agency, and his last position, when his activity started, and what he did. In other words, all the information that one needs.
Q Well, what was his first name?
A Well, unfortunately, I can't recall his first name today.
Q Where was he from?
A He was recognized at Hamburg by a former inmate of the concentration camp of Auschwitz.
Q I didn't ask you that. I asked you where he was from, where was his home?
A Oh, let's see. His wife was in Hamburg, that is all he told us.
Q He told you he was from Hamburg?
A That is what he told me, and I noted that.
Q When counsel for the defendant came and asked you did you know of a man by the name of Sommer who had been been in Auschwitz, do you know where he got the information from that you knew a man that had been in Auschwitz by the name of Sommer?
A No. The defense counsel asked me to come and see him, and he told me, "You were a Lagerfuehrer of the camp in Neuengamme?" and I said, "Yes." He asked me, "Do you know a man by the name of Sommer?" And I said, "Yes." And thereupon, I told him exactly as I told the Tribunal now all about it.
Q Then your information about this man Sommer, his activities in Auschwitz, were told to you by somebody else?
A Yes. When that man tried to escape, or rather shall I say, when this Sommer was interrogated by a special commission --
Q I know that. I am just asking you what you said is what somebody told you after he tried to escape, that this man was in Auschwitz and was considered a very bad man there?
A Yes. First of all I found that out from those people who were standing around the place where he tried to escape, and then I can recall a former inmate -- of course, I can't remember his name right now -- but I believe that he can be found out in Neuengamme -he had been released from my camp 3 -- and he described this man Sommer to me in such a way that he was a man who was very brutal and a man who was feared by everybody, a block leader. The man who told me that was again released in Neuengamme, and as far as I can recall he was sent to Luebeck. That inmate also came from Polant.
Q Was the man Sommer that you saw in Neuengamme, was he a captain in the SS?
A You mean that Sommer? No. He was unterscharfuehrer. That is what he stated on his record.
Q He was not a captain in the SS?
A No, he was Unterscharfuehrer, that is NCO, that is according to hiw own statements.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.
BY MR. RUDOLF:
Q Witness, was the concentration camp Sachsenhausen at Oranienburg?
A The concentration camp Sachsenhausen was in the Sachsenhausen territory near Oranienburg. To be exact, Oranienburg and Sachsenhausen can be compared to the Nurnberg-Furth Enclave.
Q How close was your office to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp?
A My office was not in the concentration camp Sachsenhausen. Our agency was separated from the camp, and it was outside the camp.
Q I asked you how close it was. I didn't say it was in the camp.
A You mean to our agency? Two minutes on a bicycle.
Q What was it in physical distance, in meters?
A Well, in meters, let's say, from our exits, that is from our office to Sachsenhausen, it was approximately 800 meters.
Q Not quite a half a kilometer. And you still persist in saying that you saw but one transport despite the fact that your office was about 800 meters from the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen?
A Inmate transports that were coming in and inmates who had moved out to go to their working place or had returned from their working place, I saw quite often. I saw them daily because they had to march, in part, at least, past our building in order to get to their working place. In our building also, there were 30 inmates that were employed in various work shops.
Q Then you did have an opportunity to observe the general condition of these inmates?
A Yes, of course, I saw that.
Q What was their condition?
A Their general condition of those inmates whom I saw was up to the last year of the war according to my own personal opinion good and then bad.
MR. RUDOLPH: No further questions, if the Tribunal please.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BELZER:
Q Witness, I think it necessary to ask you a short question about your official activity. Amtsgruppe D in these various offices employed SS-men, SS-NCO's as clerks, and these men had been compiled in one military unit which was called a staff company, and the leader, or the man in charge of that staff, was you, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct. However, I want to rectify the following thing. The leader of that staff company was an officer just like in any other staff company of the German army. I was a staff Master Sergeant in that company. I was the "mother of the company", so to say, and I took care of these people.
Q How did you take care of these people?
A Well, first of all, I trained them on Wednesday afternoons, Saturday afternoons, or Sunday mornings. I had also certain courses to teach them certain things. Furthermore, billeting of these NCO's, and other ranks. Then I had to hold accounts of the various official trips and leaves. Then roll calls; furthermore, clothing, and several other things.
Q And those individual offices of these agencies - you didn't enter at all, did you?
A I did enter those offices once in a while when I had to collect some money for the sports organization Oranienburg. And I collected that money from both officers and NCO's. Or then the winter relief payments. Or when one of the comrades was going to marry I collected money for a wedding present.
Q Mr. Prosecutor has alleged during the cross-examination that you said with reference to Sommer's activity in Office D-2 that you knew all about it. Now, I can't recall your ever having made such a statement. Would you have had the opportunity to make such a statement at all?
A No, I never talked about Sommer's activity. It was not possible for me to possibly gain any insight in those various offices.
Q When answering my questions you stated that Sommer, during the entire time when he served in that office, went on official trips only once or twice?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q I ask you now, did a pass have to be issued for every official trip that was carried out?
A When railroad transportation was used, then a special pass had to be issued along with the official ticket. And those various passes I received. I didn't write them out myself but I received them from my Pay Officer, because that particular pass contained on the backside of it how long these people stayed away and how often they ate there, etc. And I entered those various remarks in a special book, and then those travel orders, those passes for the trips were sent back to my Pay Officer. That is the reason why I can really state that during those official trips Sommer struck me because he did not take too many of them. This travel had to come through my office, and that was one of the regulations that had to be complied with in order not to let anybody abuse the use of the railroads.
Q The Prosecution just asked you before if you had all your knowledge concerning the activity of Sommer who had been interned in Neuengamme from hearsay. I would like to ask you now, witness, when you wrote down the various information concerning Sommer, didn't you learn that from him personally that he was a block leader near Auschwitz?
A Yes, he had stated on the basis of his activity, that is, he had to state his last activity, when in turn he had to tell us his last unit. And as far as people were concerned who came from the concentration camps, they had to write down their particular, specific activity within protective custody camp, in the administration or guard battalion, etc.
Q Your knowledge and your statements which are based on reports from other members of the concentration camp of Auschwitz, only refer to statements on brutality which had been witnessed?
A Yes.
DR. BELZER: Your Honors, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions by Prosecution?
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q The only information you obtained from Sommer at Neuengamme I believe that is the name you mentioned - was where he was last assigned. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q But you never at any time asked him how long he was in that particular camp or in that particular assignment? Did you?
A Yes, I did ask him. I asked him how long he had been there. However, I can not testify before this Tribunal today what exactly it was all about. But those statements should be in Neuengamme, according to my opinion.
Q And those statements set forth how long he was at that particular task?
A No, I believe that those special cards on which those various things were concerned are still in Neuengamme - I mean they are in the files there.
Q That information is among the questions that you submitted to the prisoner as he arrived?
A Yes, that is correct. And I also made them repeat that.
Q Will you describe briefly what these records are in connection with railroad transportation that you made reference to on redirect?
AAre you speaking about these transports of inmates?
Q No, I am speaking about the records you kept with respect to the use of railroads made by the various officials in Office Amtsgruppe D.
A Yes, do you want me to repeat, or what?
Q I would like to go into a little more detail as to what these records were and what your particular function was with respect to them...
A If an officer, an NCO or another rank from that office went on an official trip or then if he vent on leave, then I received from my Pay Officer travel orders at the same time as the tickets for the railroads which had already been written out by the officers.
Q And that was prior to the actual travel?
A Yes, indeed, prior to the actual travel.
Q How many of these records would you say, or requests, were there daily?
A Well, the daily average was two or three.
Q And what did you do with the records, you merely filed them?
A No, I kept a special file of them and when the official trip was over then those passes or travel orders were turned in in my office again, and I just filed them.
Q Well, in other words, you merely were the repository for all of the paper work in connection with official travel?
A No, I just wrote them out for certain trips. I personally only wrote them out when these NCO's and other ranks went on leave. However, when they went on official trips, then they were written out by the respective office, and I only received them in the end in order to file them and enter them in my book.
Q It would have been perfectly possible for the defendant Sommer to have made these trips by car, would it not?
A Yes, of course it would have been possible, but I don't know anything about it because I was not in charge of the motor pool.
MR. RUDOLPH: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: This witness may be excused by the Marshal.
BY DR. BELZER (Counsel for the defendant Sommer):
Q I would like to ask the witness now, in connection with these questions, what would have been the result if a member of Amtsgruppe D would have gone on an official trip without the necessary papers? What I mean to say by that is, would that man have to pay for his own trip himself?
A Well, that wouldn't have worked out very well because it was kind of dangerous for someone to go out on an official trip during the war without having the necessary travel orders and tickets and temporary duty orders.
That was not possible that an official trip was carried out on a train without the necessary orders.
Q With reference to the questions put to you by the Prosecution, I wanted to ask you just one more short question. How many people were there in camp No. 3 when you were in charge of the camp?
A The highest personnel strength at the time was 1,800 men.
Q Eighteen hundred men?
A Yes, 1800 men at the most.
Q And you said 6,000 to the Prosecution.
A Yes, Neuengamme, you see, consisted of three camps, and in this camp No. 3, for most of the time - or shall I say seventy-five per cent of the people - were guard personnel or then camp personnel or then people who were suspected of a war crime, or who had been turned in through transports from Poland, etc.
Q I have nothing else to say.
WITNESS: May I ask one question to the prosecution?
THE PRESIDENT: well, go ahead, state the question anyway. Then we will tell you whether you can ask it.
WITNESS: The Prosecution told me that in the interrogation on the 21st of December, 1946, I stated that the inmate transports were carried out by Office D-2. Even at the time during my interrogation I stated that I didn't know that from my own activity in Amtsgruppe D or Amt 2, but rather that I knew those things on the basis of my activity as a man in charge of the internment camp in Neuengamme. I learned about those things because all the reports which had been written out by these people, which reports had been sent to the G-2 Section, to the Intelligence, all passed through my hands, and I passed them on to the G-2 Section.