Q Can you tell the Court what Sommer looked like, the man who was in Neuengamme?
A He was about five foot ten inches tall, he was slim, his face sinister; and while he was interned in Neuengamme, he used to hide, he would walk by himself.
Q Did you meet anybody else from Auschwitz Camp when you were in Neuengamme?
A Yes.
Q Did these old members of the concentration camp at Auschwitz tell you this or that about the activities of Sommer at Auschwitz?
A I still recall that after the escape, I was given the order as camp leader to make investigations; and when I went to the point where he had escaped, there were about two or three hundred men at that point. From their conversation, I assumed that Sommer, who had escaped, had been an extremely brutal man when he was in Auschwitz, which was confirmed also by a former inmate of Auschwitz concentration camp.
Q Will you please repeat the last sentence, I didn't understand it.
A I recall when Sommer escaped, I had to make investigations as a camp leader. I had to return to the point where he had escaped through the barbed wire, and I had to make my investigations. From conversations among the two or three hundred internees, I assumed that Sommer in his activities as block leader in Auschwitz had been extremely brutal." And the internees said, "It is just as well he had beaten it because it might have cost him his head." I deduced from that that was quite true because Sommer made an extremely sinister impression.
Q According to your knowledge of that man Sommer, you think it is entirely possible that the passage which I read to you from Bielski's testimony really meant that Sommer who was interned in Neuengamme?
A If that witness Bielski meant somebody who was permanently attached to the staff in Auschwitz and knew him, and if his statements about the atrocities which he observed are correct, then it must have been the man Sommer, interned in Neuengamme.
DR. BELZER: I have no further questions to this witness. If the Tribunal please, my attention has been drawn to something just now, and I would like to give the witness an opportunity to specify one statement he's made. The witness has stated that in October of 1941 he joined the WVHA; I don't think it is quite correct in that form, and I would like to ask the witness to comment on this.
A I was transferred from the Death Head Unit -- I was sent home first -- and in 1941, I was transferred.
Q What was the name of the agency when you joined it?
A Inspectorate of concentration camps.
Q Thank you very much, that is all I wanted to find out.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q Witness, would you please give us a brief description of Amtsgruppe D?
A Yes, as far as its personnel was concerned you mean?
THE PRESIDENT: He is asking whether you mean as far as his personnel is concerned.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q No, I'd like to have you give a detailed description based upon your background and work in that office?
AAs I said just pow, I did not have any insight into the offices. It was my task as a Scharfuehrer on the staff of the Company to look after all NCO's and men of office group D who were on duty in the various offices. Moreover, I also looked after the men where their training was concerned, their accommodations, their leave, allocation of service, and so forth.
Q Well, could you tell us briefly what the functions of Office D-I were?
A D-I consisted of a department which worked on protective custody matters, and another office in charge of transportation, yet another office worked on arms and equipment. That is all.
Q And would you give us a brief description of office D-II.
A D-II only worked on labor allocation of the inmates, that is what I assume from its designation, "Labor office for Inmates."
Q While you were in Office Amtsgruppe D for approximately four years so that when you say you assume, you are basing it upon your observations and conversations with various people in there, and the general type of knowledge that people get in their everyday contacts?
A I never took part in any conference, nor do I remember that the ten Office Group D that there were any conference of the office chiefs. All I know is that every four or five months there was a conference with office group chief clerks, Gluecks and all the commandants of the concentration camps who, among the office chiefs of office Group D, took part in these conferences; I don't know.
Q. Witness, I was merely clarifying your use of the word "assume". I want to point out that when you used the word "assume" you were basing your conclusion on your observation, your daily contact with your fellow employees, what you heard in conversations, and things of that nature.
A. No, I never heard anything about that.
Q. Well, why do you assume that Office D-2 was concerned with labor commitments and allocations?
A. Well, after all, it is called Office for Labor Allocation of Inmates, and, as far as I can remember, the office chief of Office D-2 made frequent official trips. According to the travel orders which I gave him I can say that he negotiated with armament firms. He made these trips for those purposes--
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you were in D-2 yourself, weren't you?
A. No, I was not in D-2; I was not attached to any particular office. From the point of view of personnel I was with the personnel department. I had my own office where I worked on personnel matters of the NCO's and men, a function which any company of the Wehrmacht has. I did that for Office Group D.
Q. Well, witness, what was the physical set-up of Amtsgruppe D? Wasn't that all contained in one building?
A. Yes.
DR. HOFFMANN (Counsel for the defendant Scheide): Mr. Prosecutor, I believe it would help the Court if we would call the position of the witness as staff sergeant or master sergeant. That was his position in Office Group D.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. All right. In Office Group D - that would be in Gluecks' office?
A. No, I was downstairs with the guards. The guards were in my charge. I was completely separated from the actual office.
Q. But weren't you attached, weren't you a part of Office Group D?
A. Oh, yes, I was part of Office Group D. I was in charge of the company.
Q. Sure. Well, I didn't mean that you sat at Gluecks' elbow, but you belonged to his office group; you were attached to Gluecks' office group.
A. Yes, I was part of Office Group D, but I had my own office. Perhaps you thought I was a sort of clerk of Gluecks. No, no, my task was to look after the NCO's and men. I was not a clerk.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q. But you were not isolated in your office. You had daily contact with your fellow workers in the offices of Amtsgruppe D. Is that not correct, witness?
A. I did not have an assistant nor did I obtain any insight into the correspondence. I didn't see the incoming mail and all the outgoing mail. All I had to do was to look after my men.
Q. I am sure, witness, that even in the SS you were permitted to talk to your fellow employees, and I think that you probably did something like that in the course of your duties.
Now, will you think back and tell me whether or not you were permitted, whether you had an opportunity, to discuss matters with your fellow employees?
A. In every office, and every office chief of Office Group D had a clerk of his own. These clerks, as far as I can remember, were told by their chiefs that they must keep matters secret. They had to sign a document to that effect. After office hours fifty percent of my company lived in the building itself; the other part was married and lived at home. After office hours, therefore, everyone went his own way. We did not, as is usual with companies or regiments, have an NCO's mess where we could sit together--
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Oh, stop, stop. We are not interested in your social life after hours. What did D-2 concern itself with. What kind of work did. D-2 per form?
Now, answer that question and don't start to wander around. Just what kind of work was done in D-2?
A. I am unable to tell you this because I did not know about it. All I know was the name of this office, and my assumptions I have reached because on these official trips the office chief would negotiate with armament firms, Junkers, for instance.
Q. What did he negotiate about with armament firms?
A. I assume that he negotiated about allocation of labor.
Q. Well, of course. Just what it says in the chart that has been given to us by the German counsel: labor commitment. Now, you know that.
A. I wasn't present when he had his conferences.
Q. I know that, but you knew it was a labor office, didn't you?
A. Yes, it was that, certainly.
Q. Well, then, tell us what you know and stop trying to fool us and evade the questions.
Did you know Maurer?
A. Yes, I knew Standartenfuehrer Maurer. He was office chief.
Q. Certainly you knew who was office chief of D-2, didn't you?
A. Yes. Having worked there for four years, I knew--
Q. Naturally. Of course you knew, and you knew a lot more, too. You knew what kind of work Maurer was in charge of.
A. No, I did not know. I was not a clerk in that office.
Q. All right. You knew he had something to do with labor?
A. Yes, that became clear from the designation of the office.
Q. Certainly. Now, what did you find out, what was done about labor in D-2?
A. What I found in that department, as I emphasized before, was that the office chief went on a large number of official tripe, and as I had to keep a record of those trips--
Q. All right, he went on a lot of trips - and then what happened?
A. I am unable to tell you. When he returned, his clerks very fre quently - I am talking about his personal clerks now - had to work until late at night very often because he had to do this work very often after hours.
What the clerks wrote down on these long nights I am unable to tell you.
Q. Oh, I know that, but you do know that Maurer went out to the armament firms to find out what they needed in the way of labor?
A. No, I am unable to tell you that. I don't know it. I never he and anything about it.
Q. You never heard anything about it?
A. I mean these conferences - what they conferred about, what they wrote down, I don't know.
Q. Well, do you know this: that it was Maurer's business to distribute the labor to the armament firms?
A. I am unable to confirm this. All I know was that he made these official trips.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Where was your office located?
A. My office was located -- when you entered the building downstairs, the guard was on the right--
Q. Just a minute, I want to know what place. What place was your office located?
A. Ground floor, second room on the right-hand side, Oranienburg.
Q. In Oranienburg. That is all I wanted to know. You could have answered that with one word. Be brief, please, and answer the questions that I ask you.
A. Yes.
Q. There was in that office building Gluecks' office, Chief of Amtsgruppe D, was it not?
A. Yes, it was in the same building.
Q. In the same building Liebehenschel, chief of D-1, had his office?
A. Yes, both on the first floor.
Q. In the same building Maurer, chief of D-2, had his office?
A. Yes.
Q. Dr. Lolling, chief of D-2, had his office there?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. And also the chief of D-4?
A. Yes, also on the first floor.
Q. You were there for four years in charge of the non-commissioned officers in that building?
A. Yes.
Q. And you tell us that you don't know what the tasks - the general tasks - of each one of these offices of that building were after you had remained there for four years?
A. I am unable to make statements that in those four years I did my duty as a--
Q. I didn't ask you about your duty. I asked you what you knew.
I don't care anything about your duties.
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, did you have authority to give passes to officers?
A. No.
Q. You had nothing to do with their leaving or with their coming, where they were during working hours or after working hours, did you?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And you try to tell this Tribunal that the defendant Sommer stayed there at the office in Oranienburg all the time and didn't go to Auschwitz? That is what you told us, wasn't it?
A. While I was there, I said that I remember that Sommer was only working in Office D-2. That was where he did his work. I also remember that he went away on official trips once, or perhaps twice. How long these trips lasted I am unable to say today.
Q. And he only left there on official trips once or twice in four years?
A. As far as I can recall today, once or twice I remember particularly because other officers went much more frequently.
Q. What allocation of labor did Sommer have?
A. I am afraid I cannot tell you.
Q. Did he have the right to allocate labor at Auschwitz?
A. I don't know.
Q. So you don't know what he did at Auschwitz or what authority he had at Auschwitz?
A. No, I do not.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, you were a sergeant, were you?
A. Master sergeant.
Q. Master sergeant. And the defendant Sommer was what corresponds to a captain in the Wehrmacht?
A. Yes.
Q. He didn't report to you, of course, when he came in and went out, did he?
A. No.
Q. And you didn't make it a point to check on him each day whether he was in the office or not?
A. No, I was not in a position to do so; I did not have the authority.
Q. So, therefore, when you made the statement in the direct examination that Sommer could not have been in Auschwitz at the time indicated by the witness Beilski, you were indulging in just a wild guess, were you not?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. All right.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q. Witness, if you know will you describe, briefly, the functions of office D-3?
A. I shall describe Office D-3 now. Standartenfuehrer Dr. Lolling was the chief of that office. Then, at the same time, three Unterfuehrers worked there too.
Q. And that is all you know about Office D-3?
A. Office D-3 also had an additional office. It wasn't an office in itself but it was simply attached to D-3, which was the garrison dentistry of the Garrison Oranienburg, and afterwards the concentration camp.
Q. Witness, do you know anything about the functions and duties of Office D-3?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Tell, if you know, what the functions of Office D-4 were.
A. Office D-4 was the administration, with Sturmbannfuehrer Burger as chief of office. His collaborators were, Hauptsturmfuehrer Rink, Hauptsturmfuehrer Goetz, Obersturmfuehrer Hubenhorst, and several other Unterfuehrers and other ranks. That office was subdivided in Department Food, Billeting, and Pay. That is to say, the Pay Office for the company.
Q. Witness, do you maintain that you were so well versed in the setup of these various offices - specifically, 3 and 4 - as well as 2, and you know nothing about the duties and functions, and what went on in these offices?
A. No, I don't. I had a certain list with me in my office. If I ever needed an Untersturmfuehrer, or just a man in order to assign him a duty or something, then the man in question was contained in that list, what office he worked in, and what special department he was in. That is the reason why I know that Lolling was in the Department for Food and Billeting, and Maurer, for instance, worked somewhere else a different office.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I did not gain the impression that this witness was brought here as an expert as to the office details or the workings of that organization.
MR. RUDOLPH: You are quite right, your Honor, but it was my intention that since we have this witness here as a witness for the defense concerning D-3 it would be a good thing for the Court to get a general background of what the Amtsgruppe D was concerned with, and on the question of these other offices.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: We certainly know what Office D-3 was and it is not necessary to waste our time unless you have some specific question concerning his general knowledge.
MR. RUDOLPH: I have one other ---- pardon --- The witness has testified - if the Tribunal please - that he is fully informed about the activities of Sommer. Yet when we asked him what he knew about the various offices and what he was concerned with, he professes complete ignorance - which shows that the witness obviously is not familiar with the functions of Sommer.
As a matter of fact that was the next question I was going to pay to the witness, if the Tribunal please.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q. In other words, witness, you know very little about the functions of Amtsgruppe D, other than what you learned from this list that you had, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And you would have no knowledge of the goings and comings of the defendant Sommer, would you, witness?
A. Yes, indeed. No knowledge whatsoever.
Q. And he could have been at Auschwitz a great many times, as far as your actual knowledge is concerned, is that correct, witness?
A. Would you repeat the question, please, I didn't understand you.
Q. Then he could have been at Auschwitz a great many times without your knowledge, is that correct, Mr. Witness?
A. I could not tell you that.
Q. I direct your attention to an interrogation conducted by Mr. Wolf of the Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes on the 21st of December 1946. Do you recall any of the details in connection with that interrogation, Mr. Witness?
A. You mean on the 21st of December 1946, let us say ..... yes, I was interrogated then.
Q. By Mr. Wolf, is that correct?
A. Yes, Mr. Wolf.
Q. Were you subjected to any duress, or coercion, in the course of that interrogation, Mr. Witness?
A. No, I was not placed under duress.
Q. And you were properly sworn in, and you swore to tell the truth, is that correct?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. And you are familiar with the German language, are you not?
A. Yes.
Q. That is the language in which the interrogation was conducted, was it not?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Mr. Witness, is there any distinction in the German language between the word "know" and the word "assume"?
A. Well, how do you mean that...in what connection. ....I don't get that.
Q. Definition of the word. Is there a distinction between the word "known" and the word "assume". Do they have a different connotation in the German language?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And when you were asked the question - Do you know that Sommer was deputy to Maurer, you replied "positively" - and I quota: ".... the only one, Hauptsturmfuehrer Sommer was a deputy of Maurer.
He has deputized for Maurer often." Is that correct?
A. Well, I deducted that from the fact that Standartenfuehrer Maurer went on official trips quite often, and Sommer was the SS leader who was at the top of the seniority list in that office. There were other leaders there, too. And I told that to Mr. Wolf.
Q. But when you were asked the question you replied he was the only one, is that correct?
A. Well, Sommer was the man who was on top of the list according to seniority and according to my opinion I thought he was. That was the reason why I said he deputized for him. There was no official deputy in any office, nor was any deputy contained on that list. For instance, if a chief of office went on an official trip then the man on the top of the seniority list, the SS leader of that office, would certainly deputize for him.
Q. Then, in other words by reason of his office, or his rank in the SS. Sommer was deputy of Maurer, is that correct? In your opinion?
A. Yes, in my opinion that is correct. In my opinion he was the man at the top of the seniority list and he had been working there for three years.
Q. And you stated positively that he was the deputy to Maurer?
A. Well, at least I assumed that.
Q. Witness, I merely ask if you stated that at the interrogation. You may either answer that with a yes or a no.
A. Yes, that is correct. I said that during the interrogation.
Q. You were perfectly free to make any answer you cared to make at the interrogation, is that correct, witness?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You stated further in that interrogation, Mr. Witness, that Sommer arranged personally for the transportation of inmates, is that correct?
A. At the time I said that Office D-2 was competent for the transportation of the inmates for labor assignment, and that they were responsible for that transportation.
Q. I quote from the transcript of that interrogation the following question: "Now, has Maurer or Sommer arranged personally for the transportation of the inmates?" Your answer was, "Yes, in Office D11." Did you make that answer?
A. Yes, that is correct, I gave that answer to be sure.
Q. Now, you said further in this that he gave the orders or made the arrangements by teletype or radio, do you recall that?
A. Yes, that is correct. I said that, and that on the basis of my experience.
Q. You will have an opportunity to explain latter if you want to, Witness. You were perfectly free to make any answer that you wished to in the course of that interrogation, even to this question, were you not?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You also said, Witness, that the condition of these witnesses was deplorable, they were underfed and were in a very bad physical state, is that not correct?
THE PRESIDENT: You don't mean "witnesses". You used the word "witnesses". You meant prisoners, inmates?
MR. RUDOLPH: Thank you, prisoners or inmates.
A. Yes, that is correct. The transport that I saw in January or February at Sachsenhausen had several inmates in it, and all the inmates gave the impression to have been very badly fed.
Q. (By Mr. Rudolph) I think you said that the labor assignment was managed by Office D-II, who had to take care that such transportation was carried out properly, conscientiously and honestly, and that in your opinion the actual care given to these prisoners was criminal?
A. Yes, I believe as far as the inmates were concerned that were on that transport, they all looked very, very bad. Where the inmates came from, I do not know.
Q. Witness, is that the only transport about which you can say that?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. How long were you in Oranienburg?
A. From 1941 until the end.
Q. How often did transports come into Oranienburg?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Well, what would you say, pretty regularly, very rarely?
A. That was the only transport I ever saw.
Q. Was Auschwitz a very important camp in the concentration-camp set-up, Witness?
A. I don't know that. It was at least the largest one.
Q. And certainly as the largest camp it would have a great many problems in connection with the labor allocation, would it not, Witness?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Well, what would you assume? I say "assume" now, and not "know".
A. Well, I assume that that is what it was.
Q. And it would be perfectly logical for Sommer in the discharge of his duties as deputy to Maurer to make frequent trips up to Auschwitz, would it not?
A. Well, he took very few official trips really.
Q. I asked you whether or not it would be logical, in view of the fact that Auschwitz was the largest concentration camp, for Defendant Sommer to have taken a great many trips to Auschwitz in connection with his duties as deputy to Maurer?
A. All I can say is that as long as my activity lasted, and as long as I have known Sommer, his official trips amounted to very few ones.
Q. Then you have stated -
THE PRESIDENT: You just told us you didn't know how many trips he did make and had no way of knowing.
THE INTERPRETER: What was that again, please?
THE PRESIDENT: You just told us you didn't know how many trips Sommer made, and that you had no way of knowing.
Why do you say then that he only took a few?
THE WITNESS: Well, I can recall that Sommer only took very few official trips.
THE PRESIDENT: Only a few that you knew about?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that I knew about, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: And as you said before, he could have taken a hundred without you knowing it?
THE WITNESS: Well, I said that could have been, because after all I didn't control those various agencies or the officers. I was only responsible for NCO's or other ranks. I was not competent for controlling the officers, or controlling their duty, whether they appeared for their duty or not.
THE PRESIDENT: And you didn't know whether they appeared for duty or not?
THE WITNESS: No, that was not know to me, no, not as far as officers were concerned.
DR. BELZER: Witness, do you recall that I, in this connection, asked you if you knew, and if so where you gained your knowledge from, if and how many official trips Sommer made?
THE PRESIDENT: You must not interrupt the cross-examination. You can cross-examine again after the Prosecution is through if you wish.
DR. BELZER: I am sorry, your Honor, but that question was caused by your question. You see, I just, I didn't recall his having said that, and I just wanted to tell you what he had said answering my question.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, write it down and tell me about it later.
Q. (By. Mr. Rudolph) Now, getting back to the question which I put to you, Witness, would it be possible, or would it be logical for the Defendant Sommer to have made trips, and a great many trips to Auschwitz in connection with his duties in D-II, in view of the fact that Auschwitz was the largest concentration camp?
A. I can't tell you that.
Q. No, you can't, Witness. I merely asked you whether you could assume that or whether it would be logical.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, why don't you argue to the Court that it would be logical?
MR. RUDOLPH: I will later.
A. Well, it could be logical.
MR. RUDOLPH: Thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Rudolph) Now, Witness, you, in connection with some statements propounded to you by Sommer's counsel, stated that the SS uniform entailed boots usually. Will you explain what you meant by the word "usually"?
A. With the word "usually"?
Q. Yes. that is what come over the English translation.
A. The NCO's and other ranks, as long as they were on duty, were their boots, and with their pants tucked in while they were on duty. As I said before, that was the official uniform. I never saw Sommer wearing that.
Q. By the word "usually" though, one would imply that you did see instances in which boots were not worn, is that not correct, Witness?
A. Yes, of course it occurred once in a while that the Fuehrers came in wearing long trousers, but that only occurred very seldom.
Q. But it did occur so that it is possible for other people to wear long trousers in addition to the Defendant Sommer?
A. Yes, however quite seldom, quite seldom.
Q. Now, you say that you don't know whether Sommer had a motor bike, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct. I don't know anything about it.
Q. Tell me, Witness, if you saw a friend of yours being stoned to death, would you recall the type of boots that his assailant wore?
A. What do you mean?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, I think that is argument to the Court.
MR. RUDOLPH: Thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Rudolph) Witness, when did you discuss your testimony prior to your coming here with any members of the defense counsel or representatives of the defense counsel?
A. Yesterday morning.
Q. And what was the general nature of that discussion?
A. Well, the general nature of that discussion was I was told that I would have to appear at this Tribunal today as a witness.
Q. Did you go over the testimony that you were going to give in any detail or generally?
A. Yes, we spoke in the general terms. We discussed it in general terms.
Q. What did you discuss generally? Would you just give me a brief resume?
A. We discussed the questions which were put to me today by counsel, were discussed yesterday already.
Q. You say you cannot recall the first name of this other Sommer that you described in your direct examination?
A. No, I don't know his first name.
Q. How did you recall that you knew him?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. How did you recall that you knew this particular Sommer?
A. How did I recall that? Well, about eight days ago the counsel called me, and he wanted to know if I knew a Sommer, a man by the name of Sommer in Neuengamme, if I knew him on the basis of my activities in the camp at the time.
Q. You were stationed at Oranienburg, is that not correct?
A. Yes, I was stationed at Oranienburg.
Q. How did it happen - your knowledge of this other Sommer would be based upon hearsay evidence that you received from other inmates at this camp where you came from?
A. I only met the man while I was interned, when I was in charge of an internment camp at Neuengamme.
Q. And you know nothing about the truth of these stories that are being circulated about this other Sommer?
A. No, I don't.
Q. You say defense counsel called you about two weeks ago about this matter?
A. Just a moment, please, on the 16th of June, I believe.
Q. Would it be logical for you to know such an individual if he would come there?
A. You mean this man Sommer here? Yes.