THE PRESIDENT: You wish Rammler now?
DR. BELZER: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Marshal will bring the Witness Rammler to the witness stand.
GEORG MARTIN WILHELM RAMMLER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Please raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withheld and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DR. BELZER (for defendant Sommer): Before interrogating this witness I would like to inform the Court that I shall ask the witness about two subjects: First, I shall make reference to an affidavit submitted by the prosecution made out by that witness, and the second part will have reference with the statements made by Bielski on 14 April of this year.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q Witness, you please give us your full name?
A Rammler, Georg Martin Wilhelm.
MR. ROBBINS: I might inform the Court that the affidavit which counsel has just mentioned is Exhibit 136, in Document Book V, page 86 of the English.
THE TRIBUNAL: What is the other one?
MR. ROBBINS: That is only the affidavit.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q Witness, when and where were you born?
A On the 12th of September 1911, in Ansbach, Central Franconia.
Q When, and as what, did you join Office Group D of the WVHA?
A In September or October of 1941 I was transferred from my troop unit after an illness.
Q How long did you stay with Office Group D?
A Until the collapse in April 1945.
Q Did you obtain any insight into the activities of the various officers of that Office Group Amt?
A No.
A No.
Q Do you recall that in Office Group D-2 there were frequent, or even regular, office hours which went beyond the normal office time?
A I remember that very well. That happened very frequently that we worked beyond normal office hours.
Q Can you tell us today, still, why you remember that?
A Well, for instance, when the company was being trained, or when the NCO's and men were allocated to certain duties the clerks of the office Chiefs were given leave - they were not allotted to this work because they had to work overtime, anywhere.
Q Since when do you know Karl Sommer?
A Since the day he turned up in the Office Group.
Q Can you tell us, still, when that was - approximately?
A I suppose that it was in the spring or autumn of 1942, but I O don't remember the precise date.
Q Do you know what his position was in D-2?
A He was in charge of the Office, or he was a Department Chief.
Q Do you know that Sommer was, first of all, a civilian employee in D-2?
A I know that in the first months Sommer was wearing civilian clothes, when he performed his duties.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I understand the witness to say that Sommer was Office Chief of Office D-2?
WITNESS: No, Office Chief of D-2 was -- Sommer was not Office Chief of D-2.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, what office was he chief of? You said he was Office Chief?
WITNESS: No, office chief of D-2 was a man called Standartenfuehrer Maurer. Sommer was only in charge of a Department.
DR. BELZER: In that Office?
WITNESS: In Office D-2.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q In your affidavit of 24 January 1947 you said, and I quote:
"When transports of inmates were carried out, or when inmates were shifted from one camp to another, Office D-2 was responsible. What was called the allocation of inmates. The man in charge of that office was Standartenfuehrer Maurer and Sommer was his deputy." Unquote.
I would like to ask you, witness, what do you know about Sommer's activities in Office D-2, and how is it that you are in a position to say that Sommer deputized for Maurer?
A I assumed, when I gave my affidavit, that as Sommer was the Senior SS officer in that Office he would deputize for the Chief.
Q Therefore that was only an assumption on your part?
A Yes.
Q And you want to say that Sommer was the senior officer in that Office, after Standartenfuehrer Maurer?
A Yes, because the main senior officer of course, was Standartenfuehrer Maurer.
Q Do you know from your own observation to what extent Sommer deputized for Maurer?
A No.
Q Do you know anything about the fact - whether Sommer made frequent official trips?
A I remember that Sommer, when I was in that office, as a Stabsscharfuehrer went once or perhaps twice on an official trip.
Q How is it that you are in a position to make statements about those trips?
AAs the Scharfuehrer on the staff of the company I signed all leave orders in a special file in order to have a subhand control over these things. For instance, unjustified use of railways, and so forth.
Q On what is your knowledge based that transports of inmates was the responsibility of D-2?
A I base that on the name given to Office D-2 ... the designation It was called "Labor Allocation of Inmates."
Q Do I understand your answer to the effect that you cannot answer the question from any personal observation, and you regarded Office D-2 as an office responsible for transport only inasmuch as they were transports connected with labor allocation of inmates -- Did I understand you correctly?
A Yes, that is my personal view.
Q Now, in your affidavit you describe things which you have observed yourself, when inmates arrived in Oranienburg after the withdrawal, as you call it. Will you please specify the date?
A I recall transports in the months of January or February 1945, which I saw when I went home and walked from the Sachsenhausen station to the Sachsenhausen camp.
Q Do you know for what reasons these transports of inmates were made, and who had ordered them?
A No.
Q You also say in your affidavit, and I quote:
"I do not know who was in charge of these transports. All I know is that labor allocation was in charge of D-2 and Maurer, who had to see to it that such transports would be carried out honestly and conscientiously." Unquote. My question is witness,: "Was -- to the best of your knowledge -- Office D-2 responsible for these transports were carried out even when the transports were not carried out for reasons of labor allocation, and not ordered by Office D-2?
A I do not know.
Q What was the highest rank Sommer ever held in the Waffen-SS?
AAt the time of the collapse he was an SS Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q Do you know when Sommer was promoted an Hauptsturmfuehrer?
A I remember that in April 1944 he was promoted.
Q. Will you please tell the Court the ranks equivalent in the Wehrmacht to a Hauptsturmfuehrer?
A. An Obersturmfuehrer in the Waffen-SS would be a first lieutenant in the Wehrmacht.
Q. And what about a Hauptsturmfuehrer?
A. A Hauptsturmfuehrer in the Waffen-SS was the same thing as a captain in the Wehrmacht.
Q. Can you tell the Court what uniforms Sommer used to wear?
A. Sommer wore field gray and long trousers.
Q. Never boots?
A. No, I never saw him in boots.
Q. Was Sommer's uniform unusual, was it a rare uniform?
A. Yes, it was; it was very unusual.
Q. Why?
A. It was rather striking because officer's uniform prescribed boots.
Q. Do you know the reason why Sommer did not wear boots?
A. I remember that Sommer was suffering from an injury sustained in the war. He had an impediment when he walked.
Q. Can you still recall today whether Sommer, particularly at the time when he joined the WVHA, was limping?
A. Yes, yes, in the first years.
Q. Do you know whether Sommer had a motor bike?
A. I never saw him on a motor bike.
Q. You told us just now that you met Sommer in 1942 when he joined the group?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Sommer from that time onwards until the end of the war all the time in Oranienburg in D-II, or do you know anything about the fact that Sommer, for a long period of time, was a labor allocation leader at Auschwitz?
A. While I worked in Office Group D Sommer was always in the office.
Q. A former inmate of concentration camp Auschwitz was interrogated His name was Bielski. His testimony, I shall quote from his testimony in the German record, on Page 365:
"Q. Did you ever see Sommer in the concentration camp of Auschwitz?
"A. Yes.
"Q. How often did you see him in the concentration camp Auschwitz?
"A. I saw him very frequently when he was sitting on his motor bike. He had a motor bike with a side car, and he was always sitting on his motor bike. I saw him accompanied by a labor allocation officer who was an NCO and Oberscharfuehrer or a Hauptscharfuehrer. He was really well known and notorious for his brutality. I saw Sommer also accompanied by a Sturmbannfuehrer who was his superior officer. I do not know his name. All I know is that he was a Sturmbannfuehrer. He was in charge of the whole department, labor allocation, for all camps in Auschwitz, Birkenau and all branches.
"Q. Will you please describe one of the occasions when you saw Sommer?
"A. Certainly. In winter 1943, or at the beginning of 1944, at that time we were a group of electricians and worked together with a detachment of masons in the work shop. This was roughly at a distance of one kilometer from the camp. It was near the masons' work shop. We had constructed the electric equipment in one block, but work in the next block had not been completed, and the roof and the last floor had to be built. Masons also worked there, and it was then that Sommer and two NCO's turned up on his motor bike, and he ran up to us with loud noises. He saw inmates who didn't happen to work at that moment. Thereupon he killed a Jew by breaking his head with a brick. That was his notorious method there of breaking people's heads."
Then to quote from page 366 of the record:
"Q. Did you see any other treatment meted out by Sommer to any other inmates?
"A. He was usually there with his whip with which he used to beat the inmates. He was notorious at that time for his method of breaking peoples' heads with bricks. That was the method how he killed my great friend, Simon Weiss, who was a Polish Jew, while he was doing work. He was cooking potatoes in a room, and Sommer paid a surprise visit to that room, caught him in the act, and broke his skull with a large stone."
Then in cross-examination I asked the Witness Bielski for the exact date when Sommer paid his visit to Auschwitz camp. The witness stated that from August, 1942, until the end of October of 1944, he was in Auschwitz as an inmate, and to my questions he answered that he saw Defendant Sommer constantly in Auschwitz.
He saw him at various times of the year and at various months. I asked the witness to give us a number of times as to how often he had seen Defendant Sommer. Bielski gave me the figure twenty or thirty times. Finally I asked Witness Bielski:
"Q. What was the purpose of the visit of Sommer to Auschwitz?
"A. He was employed there permanently as a labor allocation officer, and his duties were to distribute work among the detachments, and he controlled and supervised them himself."
Witness, I should like to ask you in your opinion and to your knowledge of both Sommer's person and position, can Bielski's statements be correct?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Sommer, as I said before, was always in our office.
Q. Now, according to your observation, was Sommer's conduct as a superior, as a comrade, and as a person?
A. Toward his NCO's and men he was always a good friend and a good superior.
Q. Did you ever notice any brutalities?
A. No.
Q. Would you say that Sommer's character was harsh or soft?
A. I do not understand your question.
Q. Would you say that Sommer's character was harsh or soft?
A. Soft.
Q. Witness, you are at present in the military prison at Nurnberg, are you? Where were you before?
A. In the Sixth Civilian Internment Camp of Neuengamme near Hamburg.
Q. From when to when were you in Neuengamme?
A. From June, 1945, until 1 November 1946.
Q. Did you, in that period of time in Neuengamme, meet a former member of the SS cabled Sommer who during the war was part of the staff of Auschwitz?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you please describe to the Court how you mot this man and what you heard, from him and about him?
A When I was in Neuengamme from June 1945 to November 1946, and I was the leader of the internees of Camp 3. The new arrivals were received. I shook hands with every single new arrival and asked him who he was. In March or April 1946 a man turned up who had been a SS-Unterscharfuehrer and whose name was Sommer, I asked him why he came so late, and the answer was that he had been recognized in Hamburg by a former inmate of Auschwitz concentration camp, and he was immediately chased down the street by him. Sommer, as far as I can remember, was arrested and taken to Neuengamme. When lists were drawn up which was an order given to me by the intelligence officer of the British Army, I received Sommer myself as I did everybody else that came into Camp 3; and when I took down his personal, recent activities, it became clear that the last years of the war, Sommer had been in Auschwitz as a block leader.
Q. Do you know his first name?
A I cannot recall it.
Q Do you know anything about the fact that Sommer was frequently interrogated in Neuengamme?
A Yes. Camp 3 was known as a blocked camp in Neuengamme. The majority of the inmates there were the guard battalion of the concentration camps and camp personnel.
Q Do you know what these interrogations were about?
A Yes. As far as I can recall, frequently, I believe three or four times, a special commission turned up. It consisted of a Polish Captain who interrogated. Sommer frequently on the basis of his activities in Auschwitz as block leader.
Q Where was Sommer taken to?
A Sommer escaped from the camp in October of 1946 together with five or six interness.
Q Do you know why Sommer escaped?
A I assume that the danger existed that he might be handed over to Poland?
Q Can you tell the Court what Sommer looked like, the man who was in Neuengamme?
A He was about five foot ten inches tall, he was slim, his face sinister; and while he was interned in Neuengamme, he used to hide, he would walk by himself.
Q Did you meet anybody else from Auschwitz Camp when you were in Neuengamme?
A Yes.
Q Did these old members of the concentration camp at Auschwitz tell you this or that about the activities of Sommer at Auschwitz?
A I still recall that after the escape, I was given the order as camp leader to make investigations; and when I went to the point where he had escaped, there were about two or three hundred men at that point. From their conversation, I assumed that Sommer, who had escaped, had been an extremely brutal man when he was in Auschwitz, which was confirmed also by a former inmate of Auschwitz concentration camp.
Q Will you please repeat the last sentence, I didn't understand it.
A I recall when Sommer escaped, I had to make investigations as a camp leader. I had to return to the point where he had escaped through the barbed wire, and I had to make my investigations. From conversations among the two or three hundred internees, I assumed that Sommer in his activities as block leader in Auschwitz had been extremely brutal." And the internees said, "It is just as well he had beaten it because it might have cost him his head." I deduced from that that was quite true because Sommer made an extremely sinister impression.
Q According to your knowledge of that man Sommer, you think it is entirely possible that the passage which I read to you from Bielski's testimony really meant that Sommer who was interned in Neuengamme?
A If that witness Bielski meant somebody who was permanently attached to the staff in Auschwitz and knew him, and if his statements about the atrocities which he observed are correct, then it must have been the man Sommer, interned in Neuengamme.
DR. BELZER: I have no further questions to this witness. If the Tribunal please, my attention has been drawn to something just now, and I would like to give the witness an opportunity to specify one statement he's made. The witness has stated that in October of 1941 he joined the WVHA; I don't think it is quite correct in that form, and I would like to ask the witness to comment on this.
A I was transferred from the Death Head Unit -- I was sent home first -- and in 1941, I was transferred.
Q What was the name of the agency when you joined it?
A Inspectorate of concentration camps.
Q Thank you very much, that is all I wanted to find out.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q Witness, would you please give us a brief description of Amtsgruppe D?
A Yes, as far as its personnel was concerned you mean?
THE PRESIDENT: He is asking whether you mean as far as his personnel is concerned.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q No, I'd like to have you give a detailed description based upon your background and work in that office?
AAs I said just pow, I did not have any insight into the offices. It was my task as a Scharfuehrer on the staff of the Company to look after all NCO's and men of office group D who were on duty in the various offices. Moreover, I also looked after the men where their training was concerned, their accommodations, their leave, allocation of service, and so forth.
Q Well, could you tell us briefly what the functions of Office D-I were?
A D-I consisted of a department which worked on protective custody matters, and another office in charge of transportation, yet another office worked on arms and equipment. That is all.
Q And would you give us a brief description of office D-II.
A D-II only worked on labor allocation of the inmates, that is what I assume from its designation, "Labor office for Inmates."
Q While you were in Office Amtsgruppe D for approximately four years so that when you say you assume, you are basing it upon your observations and conversations with various people in there, and the general type of knowledge that people get in their everyday contacts?
A I never took part in any conference, nor do I remember that the ten Office Group D that there were any conference of the office chiefs. All I know is that every four or five months there was a conference with office group chief clerks, Gluecks and all the commandants of the concentration camps who, among the office chiefs of office Group D, took part in these conferences; I don't know.
Q. Witness, I was merely clarifying your use of the word "assume". I want to point out that when you used the word "assume" you were basing your conclusion on your observation, your daily contact with your fellow employees, what you heard in conversations, and things of that nature.
A. No, I never heard anything about that.
Q. Well, why do you assume that Office D-2 was concerned with labor commitments and allocations?
A. Well, after all, it is called Office for Labor Allocation of Inmates, and, as far as I can remember, the office chief of Office D-2 made frequent official trips. According to the travel orders which I gave him I can say that he negotiated with armament firms. He made these trips for those purposes--
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you were in D-2 yourself, weren't you?
A. No, I was not in D-2; I was not attached to any particular office. From the point of view of personnel I was with the personnel department. I had my own office where I worked on personnel matters of the NCO's and men, a function which any company of the Wehrmacht has. I did that for Office Group D.
Q. Well, witness, what was the physical set-up of Amtsgruppe D? Wasn't that all contained in one building?
A. Yes.
DR. HOFFMANN (Counsel for the defendant Scheide): Mr. Prosecutor, I believe it would help the Court if we would call the position of the witness as staff sergeant or master sergeant. That was his position in Office Group D.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. All right. In Office Group D - that would be in Gluecks' office?
A. No, I was downstairs with the guards. The guards were in my charge. I was completely separated from the actual office.
Q. But weren't you attached, weren't you a part of Office Group D?
A. Oh, yes, I was part of Office Group D. I was in charge of the company.
Q. Sure. Well, I didn't mean that you sat at Gluecks' elbow, but you belonged to his office group; you were attached to Gluecks' office group.
A. Yes, I was part of Office Group D, but I had my own office. Perhaps you thought I was a sort of clerk of Gluecks. No, no, my task was to look after the NCO's and men. I was not a clerk.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q. But you were not isolated in your office. You had daily contact with your fellow workers in the offices of Amtsgruppe D. Is that not correct, witness?
A. I did not have an assistant nor did I obtain any insight into the correspondence. I didn't see the incoming mail and all the outgoing mail. All I had to do was to look after my men.
Q. I am sure, witness, that even in the SS you were permitted to talk to your fellow employees, and I think that you probably did something like that in the course of your duties.
Now, will you think back and tell me whether or not you were permitted, whether you had an opportunity, to discuss matters with your fellow employees?
A. In every office, and every office chief of Office Group D had a clerk of his own. These clerks, as far as I can remember, were told by their chiefs that they must keep matters secret. They had to sign a document to that effect. After office hours fifty percent of my company lived in the building itself; the other part was married and lived at home. After office hours, therefore, everyone went his own way. We did not, as is usual with companies or regiments, have an NCO's mess where we could sit together--
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Oh, stop, stop. We are not interested in your social life after hours. What did D-2 concern itself with. What kind of work did. D-2 per form?
Now, answer that question and don't start to wander around. Just what kind of work was done in D-2?
A. I am unable to tell you this because I did not know about it. All I know was the name of this office, and my assumptions I have reached because on these official trips the office chief would negotiate with armament firms, Junkers, for instance.
Q. What did he negotiate about with armament firms?
A. I assume that he negotiated about allocation of labor.
Q. Well, of course. Just what it says in the chart that has been given to us by the German counsel: labor commitment. Now, you know that.
A. I wasn't present when he had his conferences.
Q. I know that, but you knew it was a labor office, didn't you?
A. Yes, it was that, certainly.
Q. Well, then, tell us what you know and stop trying to fool us and evade the questions.
Did you know Maurer?
A. Yes, I knew Standartenfuehrer Maurer. He was office chief.
Q. Certainly you knew who was office chief of D-2, didn't you?
A. Yes. Having worked there for four years, I knew--
Q. Naturally. Of course you knew, and you knew a lot more, too. You knew what kind of work Maurer was in charge of.
A. No, I did not know. I was not a clerk in that office.
Q. All right. You knew he had something to do with labor?
A. Yes, that became clear from the designation of the office.
Q. Certainly. Now, what did you find out, what was done about labor in D-2?
A. What I found in that department, as I emphasized before, was that the office chief went on a large number of official tripe, and as I had to keep a record of those trips--
Q. All right, he went on a lot of trips - and then what happened?
A. I am unable to tell you. When he returned, his clerks very fre quently - I am talking about his personal clerks now - had to work until late at night very often because he had to do this work very often after hours.
What the clerks wrote down on these long nights I am unable to tell you.
Q. Oh, I know that, but you do know that Maurer went out to the armament firms to find out what they needed in the way of labor?
A. No, I am unable to tell you that. I don't know it. I never he and anything about it.
Q. You never heard anything about it?
A. I mean these conferences - what they conferred about, what they wrote down, I don't know.
Q. Well, do you know this: that it was Maurer's business to distribute the labor to the armament firms?
A. I am unable to confirm this. All I know was that he made these official trips.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Where was your office located?
A. My office was located -- when you entered the building downstairs, the guard was on the right--
Q. Just a minute, I want to know what place. What place was your office located?
A. Ground floor, second room on the right-hand side, Oranienburg.
Q. In Oranienburg. That is all I wanted to know. You could have answered that with one word. Be brief, please, and answer the questions that I ask you.
A. Yes.
Q. There was in that office building Gluecks' office, Chief of Amtsgruppe D, was it not?
A. Yes, it was in the same building.
Q. In the same building Liebehenschel, chief of D-1, had his office?
A. Yes, both on the first floor.
Q. In the same building Maurer, chief of D-2, had his office?
A. Yes.
Q. Dr. Lolling, chief of D-2, had his office there?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. And also the chief of D-4?
A. Yes, also on the first floor.
Q. You were there for four years in charge of the non-commissioned officers in that building?
A. Yes.
Q. And you tell us that you don't know what the tasks - the general tasks - of each one of these offices of that building were after you had remained there for four years?
A. I am unable to make statements that in those four years I did my duty as a--
Q. I didn't ask you about your duty. I asked you what you knew.
I don't care anything about your duties.
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, did you have authority to give passes to officers?
A. No.
Q. You had nothing to do with their leaving or with their coming, where they were during working hours or after working hours, did you?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And you try to tell this Tribunal that the defendant Sommer stayed there at the office in Oranienburg all the time and didn't go to Auschwitz? That is what you told us, wasn't it?
A. While I was there, I said that I remember that Sommer was only working in Office D-2. That was where he did his work. I also remember that he went away on official trips once, or perhaps twice. How long these trips lasted I am unable to say today.
Q. And he only left there on official trips once or twice in four years?
A. As far as I can recall today, once or twice I remember particularly because other officers went much more frequently.
Q. What allocation of labor did Sommer have?
A. I am afraid I cannot tell you.
Q. Did he have the right to allocate labor at Auschwitz?
A. I don't know.
Q. So you don't know what he did at Auschwitz or what authority he had at Auschwitz?
A. No, I do not.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, you were a sergeant, were you?
A. Master sergeant.
Q. Master sergeant. And the defendant Sommer was what corresponds to a captain in the Wehrmacht?
A. Yes.
Q. He didn't report to you, of course, when he came in and went out, did he?
A. No.
Q. And you didn't make it a point to check on him each day whether he was in the office or not?
A. No, I was not in a position to do so; I did not have the authority.
Q. So, therefore, when you made the statement in the direct examination that Sommer could not have been in Auschwitz at the time indicated by the witness Beilski, you were indulging in just a wild guess, were you not?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. All right.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. RUDOLPH:
Q. Witness, if you know will you describe, briefly, the functions of office D-3?
A. I shall describe Office D-3 now. Standartenfuehrer Dr. Lolling was the chief of that office. Then, at the same time, three Unterfuehrers worked there too.
Q. And that is all you know about Office D-3?
A. Office D-3 also had an additional office. It wasn't an office in itself but it was simply attached to D-3, which was the garrison dentistry of the Garrison Oranienburg, and afterwards the concentration camp.
Q. Witness, do you know anything about the functions and duties of Office D-3?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Tell, if you know, what the functions of Office D-4 were.
A. Office D-4 was the administration, with Sturmbannfuehrer Burger as chief of office. His collaborators were, Hauptsturmfuehrer Rink, Hauptsturmfuehrer Goetz, Obersturmfuehrer Hubenhorst, and several other Unterfuehrers and other ranks. That office was subdivided in Department Food, Billeting, and Pay. That is to say, the Pay Office for the company.
Q. Witness, do you maintain that you were so well versed in the setup of these various offices - specifically, 3 and 4 - as well as 2, and you know nothing about the duties and functions, and what went on in these offices?
A. No, I don't. I had a certain list with me in my office. If I ever needed an Untersturmfuehrer, or just a man in order to assign him a duty or something, then the man in question was contained in that list, what office he worked in, and what special department he was in. That is the reason why I know that Lolling was in the Department for Food and Billeting, and Maurer, for instance, worked somewhere else a different office.