JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination, Mr. Robbins?
DR. HEIM: Dr. Heim on behalf of Dr. Rauschenbach for August Frank.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q. Witness, you told us in the course of your testimony that you had heard about the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto through the German newspapers. I myself know very well that German papers did not carry any reports about the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto. Did you not confuse that destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto with the uprising under General Bor in 1944?
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I don't think this is a proper type of question to put to the witness. Counsel states he knows from his own knowledge such and such and then asks the witness, isn't that true.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the statement of counsel as to what he himself knows is, of course, improper. The question which he is about to answer and had stated in part would be proper cross-examination.
DR. HEIM: The question which I wanted to put to the witness, was, "Did you confuse the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto with the uprising under General Bor in 1944?"
THE PRESIDENT: That's a proper question. The prosecution objects to your statement as a matter of fact that the German papers did not carry the story of the Warsaw Ghetto. Of course, that's a statement, not a question. Your question is proper and may be answered, except that there is one word in it that the Tribunal does not understand: "With the up rising of--"
INTERPRETER: Under General Bor. He commanded the Polish forces.
A. Yes, I confused the two things. I meant the up rising under General Bor. Nothing else was published in the papers.
DR. HEIM: Thank you. No further questions.
BY DR. MAYER (Attorney for the Defendant Kiefer):
Q. Witness, I only wish to ask you one question, namely, about your deputizing for Kammler. In your affidavit, which is in Document Book I, and you know it, you say, under paragraph 22, that up to May, 1943, you had been Kammler's deputy and you continued to say, "I was relieved and SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Kiefer took over." I wish to ask you, Witness, what do you mean by "relieved."
A. I explained yesterday that I knew nothing about the fact that Kiefer deputized. I saw that here in the documents. When I formulated my affidavit I pointed out that fact, but my statement was not taken into consideration when the affidavit was finally drawn up. The interrogator told me, "it doesn't matter." My defense counsel was present when that statement was made.
Q. The order on the basis of which Kiefer was deputized, you saw from the files?
A. Yes, I saw that only in the documents here.
Q. And you also saw that it dates from September, 1943?
A. Yes, that is correct. I was not in the office at that time.
Q. May I conclude from that, therefore, that you did not know anything about a successor at that time?
A. No, I did not know anything.
DR. MAYER: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other cross-examination by defense counsel? If not, Mr. Robbins, you may cross-examine.
Q Witness, I would like to run over very quickly with you the chronological order of your positions. I don't think it's very clear on the record. You became active full-time in the SS in October 1932, you said?
A Yes, 1932.
Q And at that time you designed insignia for the SS?
A Yes.
Q And in what main office did this department come under?
A It was the Administrative Office SS in the Main-Office SS.
Q The Administrative Office of the SS?
A Yes, quite.
Q And you continued in that position designing insignia until June of 1933?
A Yes.
Q Then in June 1933 you went to a civilian office, you said, you carry out large construction enterprises. Will you tell us very briefly, the nature of that construction?
A In 1933 I was given leave and so I joined a civilian named Josef Hellmann in Munich. He gave me a job and I worked on the construction of the SS school in Toelz. The old school, that is to say.
Q Is that the only construction project you worked on?
A Then for a brief period I worked on the building of the NSDAP in Munich and then I was transferred back to the Administrative Office of the SS when my leave had expired.
Q Both of these projects which you have just mentioned were carried out locally by a civilian construction firm; is that right?
A Yes, a civilian construction firm.
Q And it was under the general supervision and the ministerial level of the Administrative Office of the SS, wasn't it?
A No, it wasn't under the Administrative Office of the SS. It was a civilian office. The civilian orders, namely, for construction and the pressure of the NSDAP on a normal private contract which is quite a usual thing.
I was paid not by the SS nor by the Party. I was paid to the amount of 350 Marks per month by that civilian architect and I remained with that architect.
Q What organization in the SS gave the order or the requisition for the building of the SS school that you worked on?
A The order came from the Treasurer of the NSDAP. It was his affair.
Q And then you returned to the Administrative Office -- well, as a matter of fact, you were only lent to the private construction firm, weren't you? You were still attached to the Administrative Office?
A I was still a member of the Administrative Office.
Q And you were on leave, were you not, from the Administrative office?
A Yes, I had been given leave, as I stated.
Q And then in June 1934 you returned to active duty with the Administrative Office.
A Yes, I did.
Q And you said in June 1934 you were given the task of supervising the repair of buildings for accommodations of political agencies under Administrative Office of the SS; is that right?
A They weren't political agencies. It was a military unit at that time and was called political service and that unit was the predecessor of the SS-Verfuegungstruppe, the special task unit. They were a guard battalion guarding public buildings in Munich, the population there, and for that guard battalion accommodations were built.
Q And that is the only kind of buildings that were built? Just for guard units? No concentration camps?
A No, not for concentration camps. Only for the guard or the guard battalion at Munich.
Q And nothing for the guards of concentration camps?
A No, not in 1934. I am not quite sure. At least I cannot recall it after 12 years.
Q And at that time in June 1934 what Main Department of the Administrative Office was your construction office under? Was that V-IV?
A In 1934 Main Department V-IV did not exist. At least I don't think it did. I see from the document here that the reorganization was carried out only in October 1935. I cannot recall the details of that organization. It happened too long ago.
Q It was just a construction office? It wasn't under any main division? It was immediately under the Chief of the Administrative Office.
A It was Main Department V-IV and in that Main Department was V-IV-C. Nobody was in charge of V-IV, therefore, it was directly under the Chief.
Q That was after the re-organization in October 1935 but just for one brief moment I want to direct your attention to the period before October 1935 -- between June 1934 and October 1935, when there was no Department V-IV.
A I do not recall these details any more.
Q Then there came a time when V-IV-C was de-activated and reorganized and became Department V-V in the Administrative Office. When was that?
A I am unable to tell you. I do not know any more that on 1 October 1935 any change occurred. So many changes occurred at that time that it is quite impossible to keep trace of all of the details. To the best of my belief and knowledge I cannot give you the details of the organization at the time.
Q Well, there wasn't very much difference in the channels or in the actual organization or the duties in your position as Chief of V-IV-C and as Chief of V-V, was there?
A I am unable to say anything about that time. It was 12 years ago. So many things have happened since the war it's quite impossible to recall the details of that period.
Q It's very unfortunate, witness. Then there came a time you told us in October 1938, then you went to Berlin. Is that the first time you left the Administrative Office?
A I did not leave the Administrative Office.
Q What the purpose of your transfer in October 1938 to Berlin?
A The whole agency was transferred to Berlin but the Administrative of the SS was transferred to Berlin in stages. I left, roughly, on the 18th or 20 of October 1938 and went to Berlin.
Q And then you remained in the Administrative Office until what date?
A I remained with the Administrative Office until 1 April 1939 when it was re-organized into the Main Office Budget and Buildings but I would like to point out again this re-organization is not too clear to me and I base my statement only on what I have seen in the documents here.
Q Then in April 1939 did you become a member of the Main Office Haushalt und Bauten, Budget and Building?
A Yes, I did.
Q And that was in Office 2, was it not?
A Yes, my Main Department had been attached to Office 2.
Q And what position did you hold in Haushalt und Bauten?
A I was Main Department Chief for the construction of the Special Tasks Unit of the Verfuegungstruppe.
Q And in this position you had nothing whatever to do with the construction of the concentration camps?
A. No, in that position I had nothing to do with the construction of concentration camps.
Q. Tell us, if you will, during that period -- who handled the construction of concentration camps?
A. It was planned and carried out at that time, let us say 1 April 1939, by the Building Department of the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps.
Q. Eicke had turned over all of his control of Building matters sometime during 1940; you told us that yesterday and you told us that it went to the Administrative Agency of the SS. Let's not play hideand-seek. Where did it go?
A. In 1940, although I do not know the exact date and I can only speak from my memory, the Construction Department with the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was turned over by Office 2, Construction, of the Main Office Budget and Building. It continued with the same title under Eicke. He was transferred in 1940 but I cannot say the exact date.
Q. We have your curricula vitae not up into April 1939 when you were transferred to Office 2 of Haushalt und Bauten, Budget and Building. How long did you stay with that organization?
A. I didn't understand the question, sir.
Q. How long did you continue to work after April 1939 with the Main Office, Haushalt und Bauten?
A. Until the end of 1939 or the beginning of 1940. I am unable to give you the exact dates of my transfer to the Waffen-SS.
Q. Around March or April 1940, wasn't it?
A. I do not know. It might have been in the late autumn, of 1939 or the first weeks of 1940 but I am unable to specify that.
Q. At that time where did you go?
A. I went to the Administrative Office of the Main Operational Office.
Q. And your immediate superior was the defendant Frank?
A. Yes.
Q. And what position did you hold in that office?
A. I took over Main Department V-V of the Administrative Office of the Waffen-SS, which must not be confused with Office V of the old days.
Q. And what sort of construction matters, very briefly, did you deal with there?
A. In V-V I was in charge of the maintenance of the accommodations of the Waffen-SS in the home area.
Q. You wish to tell us there were no main contacts whatever between that office and the concentration camps or the Death Head Unit -guard for concentration camps?
A. No, I had no contact at all with those agencies at that time.
Q. Either directly or indirectly?
A. Neither directly or indirectly.
A. And how long did you stay with Office V-V under Frank?
A. Until 1 February 1942.
Q. And then you became Office Chief in the WVHA?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, you don't claim, do you, that when you joined the SS in 1931 that you were forced in any way or drafted into that organization?
A. No, I said that I joined it voluntarily.
Q. And when you were transferred to the Waffen-SS you were transferred as a member of the Allgemeine-SS, weren't you? You were given orders as an SS man?
A. I was transferred to the Waffen-SS as a Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q. And as a member of the Allegemeine-SS?
A. From that moment I was no longer a member of the AllegemeineSS or the General SS. I was a member of the SS-Verfuegungstruppe, a special task troop.
Q. I understand that but you were given orders as an SS-man to transfer to the Waffen-SS?
A. Yes, I was obligated to do so and I was shown a document which I signed and that completed my transfer to the special task unit.
Q. The Waffen-SS wasn't drafting people at that time, was it? It wasn't drafting civilians?
A. I never said it did. I was transferred.
Q. It didn't though. I didn't say you said it did. I am just asking you that the Waffen-SS was not drafting people at that time in 1936 in April -- was drafting civilians?
A. No drafting was done on the whole. Everybody volunteered at that time on the basis of a four years or 8 years service or otherwise you had to obligate yourself until your 45th year of age.
Q. When did the SS first start drafting civilians into organization, if ever?
A. I don't know. I think it must have been at the beginning of the war and transfers from other branches of the Wehrmacht might have occurred on the basis of the orders but I cannot give you any information on that point. I do not say that it was impossible that individual persons who were transferred from the Luftwaffe to the SS were affected prior to 1939.
Q. You told us yesterday that in 1922 or 1923 you were a member of the Oberland-League in Munich. This was an organization which was a predecessor of the Nazi Party, was it not?
A. No, it wasn't a predecessor of the NSDAP Oberland was a union of patriotic associations with patriotic tendencies and at that time did not correspond with the NSDAP or had any other contact with it. It was a member of the patriotic associations up to a point but otherwise it was completely independent.
Q. But it was a secret organization and was subsequently declared illegal and was dissolved. Why don't you tell us that?
A. It wasn't a secret organization. It was an officially registered association and on an entirely legal basis. There was nothing secret about it.
Q. You don't know it was considered a secret organization under Sec. 128 of the German Criminal Code?
A. No, I did not know that; the association was a perfectly public one. We appeared in public and had been public meetings and had been recognized by the army at the time. It wasn't a secret organization.
Q. Will you tell us it was never declared illegal in any parts of Germany? It was never declared illegal?
A. I did not know whether it was declared illegal in other parts of Germany. It wasn't illegal in Bavaria. It was perfectly public.
Q. You did not know it was declared illegal for carrying on illegal re-armament and having in its possession secret weapons and for murder?
A. I did not know that.
Q. Suppose you tell us why it was dissolved in November 1923?
A. The association was dissolved because together with other patriotic units it took place in the Munich up-rising in 1923.
Q. By whom was it dissolved?
A. By the Bavarian Government. The association later on was permitted again. In 1925 or 1926 permission was granted again for the association.
Q. And it later merged into the NSDAP?
A. No, it never merged with the NSDAP. As far as I know the association continued to exist up to 1932 or perhaps 1933. As far as I remember, it slowly died a natural death because the members had left and some of them had joined the other parties -- some of them joined the NSDAP. One could not say, as far as I can see, that the association was turned over to the NSDAP.
Q. Did you take part in the Munich Putsch along with the other Party members?
A. I took part with the other members in the Munich rising, yes.
Q. Now, I would like for a few moments to go into the organization of the offices a little more in detail. The conventration at Dachau was owned prior to 1933 by the Bavarian Government which was by a State agency; is that right?
A. Prior to 1933, no. After 1933.
Q. I am talking about the Bavarian Government and the Dachau concentration camp. I am asking you if prior to 1933 the Dachau area did not belong to the Bavarian Government?
A. Yes, I mentioned that yesterday. It belonged to the Bavarian Administration of Property for those armament enterprises. It was an area which in the first World War consisted of an ammunition factory.
Q. Which belonged to the Bavarian Government?
A. It belonged to the Bavarian Government, yes.
Q. Then in 1933 when the SS took over the camp the entire area was purchased by the NSDAP?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, I would like to show you some charts and go a good deal into detail into the organization and the reason of your offices.
DR. STEIN: May I ask here whether these documents are to become an exhibit?
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, when the proper time comes at the end of the defense's case I want to offer this entire document in evidence. For the time being I would like to reserve this for an exhibit number. I would like to question the witness on the basis of this chart. Any objection?
THE PRESIDENT: If it isn't an exhibit what are you going to use it for now?
MR. ROBBINS: To ask the witness if the chart is correct -- to authenticate them.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you going to qualify the document by the testimony of this witness?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And if he does qualify it then you will offer it in evidence as an exhibit?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, Your Honor. I have not given the witness the entire document. I have at first only given him Table I of Document NO 4007.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, do you know the person who has been discussed here yesterday, Hubert Karl?
A. Yes, I know him.
Q. Would you say that he was the first chief of construction in the SS?
A. I am unable to tell you that because I do not know what Karl did before I returned to the Administrative Office of the SS in August of 1934.
Q. Do you know that he was there in November 1933 in the Dachau construction office?
A. No, I did not know that.
Q. And you know, do you not, that he was chief of the construction office in Dachau until May 1935? That was subsequent to your return.
A. I knew that Karl was working at Dachau, but I did not know what he did their in detail.
Q. You did not know that he was chief of the construction office in Dachau?
A. I knew he was in charge of construction in Dachau, but to what extent he was busy there, I do not know.
Q. And you know that after May 1935 he worked in the Administrative Office in the construction office, which later became V-V in the Administrative Office?
A. All I can remember is that for a short time Karl worked in my department, but I do not remember any details of that position of his. I have already pointed out that the construction office Dachau changed its position very frequently.
At one time they were under me. Then they were independent, but as I remember it today, I can say that the construction office Dachau, even if it was organized with the Administrative Office of the SS at Munich, always worked independently.
Q. Well, witness, just a moment. Let's not try to confuse the issue anymore than it is. If you don't remember something, just say that you do not remember it. Tell us when Karl worked under you in the Administrative Office of the SS. You said you remembered that. I don't want you to tell us anything you don't remember. Just tell us what you do remember.
A. I do not know when that happened.
Q. But you do remember that it happened?
A. He worked under me at one time.
Q. And do you know what position he held under you? He was in charge of V-V-b for a while, wasn't he--V-V-b?
A. I can not even recall a department V-V-b. I said before that any further organizational changes between 1934 and 1 October and 1 April 1939 I can not remember.
Q. You want us to believe that you can not even remember that under you there was an office V-V-b? Is that what you are telling us?
A. I cannot recall with certainty or state under oath that department V-V-b was under me. As far as I have seen from talks here, it might, from an organizational point of view, be organized under the Administrative Office of the SS, but whether it was under me, under my responsibility, I am unable to tell you after these 12 years.
Q. Do you remember that there was a Department V-V-a, V-V-b, V-V-c, V-V-d? That should not be too hard to remember?
A. It is possible, sir, but I do not wish to commit myself under oath because I really do not remember the details. So many things have happened to me, so many changes have occurred, that I do not remember these details after 12 years in order to make a statement under oath.
Q. So if the witness Karl tells us about the organization in detail of this office, you would not be in a very good position to contradict him, would you? Or to confirm him?
A. On oath, I assume I cannot contradict him. If he knows it better, he has to take that on his oath. I am unable to do so. It has been too long ago.
Q. You don't know that in 1940 Karl became the director of Building Inspectorate in Norway?
A. In 1940, as I remember it, he was transferred by the office of construction, Heidelberg, to Norway.
Q. He was not under you then, was he?
A. No, he was not under me at that time.
Q. How it is that you remember something like that, the duties and tasks of this man in 1940 when he was not under you-- completely out in Norway--when two years earlier you cannot remember whether or not he was under you, what office he held?
A. Well, after all, that happened lass long ago than 1935.
Q. Do you remember that in 1941 he became the chief of the Building Inspectorate in the General Government?
A. That might be possible, but I can not recall the details of what he did there when he returned from Norway. I had no contact with him.
Q. Well, you probably would know that he worked in Office C-I sometime in 1942. You have seen that from the documents. Do you recall it from your own memory?
A. That is contained in the organizational chart, that he had orders to look after the business of C-1. I can not recall the details there.
Q. Do you know what his position in C-1 was?
A. Well, as it says on the organizational chart, to look after the business of C-1. Any further explanation is not possible. Whether he was an office chief, for instance, at that time, I do not know. I don't think he was ever confirmed as an office chief.
Q. I think that is right. In 1943, do you know whether or not he was made chief of the Building Inspectorate, South?
A. Yes, I remember that, but not, of course, the precise date.
Q. And under whose supervision would he have been as chief of Building Inspectorate South?
A. Under whose supervision, you mean?
Q. What office in Amtsgruppe C?
A. Office C-V, the Central Building Inspectorate.
Q. Now, will you look at the table I have just given you, Table 1 of Document NO 4007. This is a chart which was drawn up by the person we have been talking about, Karl, which represents the Construction Office of the SS for the period 1933 and 1934. Do you know whether this is a correct representation? You were there for a period.
A. I am unable to comment on this table. Up to this moment I did not know that Karl had been in the Administrative Office of the SS before me, namely, from June 1933 to July 1934.
I was in Toelz, and I had no contact with the Administrative Office of the SS in Munich. What Karl did in Dachau at that time I did not know until this moment.
Q. Well, if he came as Chief of the Construction Office in Dachau on 1 November 1933 then he preceded Pohl in the Construction Office of the SS, did he not? You know that Schneider was Chief of the Administrative Office of the SS? You know that much about the chart.
A. Oberfuehrer Schneider was the Chief of the Administrative Office until 31 December 1933. Then he was dismissed from the service by the Reichsfuehrer.
Q. And succeeded by Pohl?
A. Pohl was appointed his successor in 1934, but I do not know the date.
Q. So you can confirm that the information contained in the first box there, is correct that the Administrative Office was at Munich and headed by Schneider?
A. Schneider was chief of the SS Administrative Office until 31 December 1933.
Q. Now, it seems to me that your testimony yesterday confirms the fact that the concentration camp and the SS training camp were both under the garrison Dachau, which is shown on the lower right hand corner of the chart. Isn't that what you told us yesterday?
A. Under the garrison Dachau? At what period of time, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q. 1933 and 1934.
A. I am unable to tell you whether there was a garrison administration at Dachau at all.
Q. You don't deny that this may have been the case?
A. I simply don't know.
Q. You told us a good deal about the garrison Dachau yesterday, but today you can't remember about it; is that right?
A. If you please, you are speaking about 1933 and 1934, whereas I was speaking about 1936 and 1937, not 1933 and 1934.
Q. All right, let's come to the later period. I show you Table No. 2 of this same document. This is the organization plan drawn by Karl for 1935 to 1938. Can you confirm that the Administrative Office of the SS was still in Munich and it was under Pohl during that period?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And that you were in charge of Main Department V-5, Construction Affairs?
A. I cannot recall that I was in charge of Main Department V-5.
Q. Come now, you told us that five or six times.
A. I did not say anything of that sort at all. I did not recall that an organization called V-5 existed. The civilian employee, Dinkel, was never under me at any time, therefore this chart is incorrect as it is drawn up here. For a certain period of time Karl was under me. Whether ho was under me in everything he did, I am unable to remember. I said before that at that time so many changes were carried out.
Q. You told us that. If you can't remember that there was an office V-5, I don't think there is very much point in discussing this any further. Is that your testimony that you don't remember that there was an office V-5?
A. I cannot recall it well enough in order to speak about it under oath.
Q. You don't remember that, I suppose you wouldn't then, that under V-5/A, which was also under you according to Karl, the building matters for the concentration camp Dachau were handled. Do you remember that?
A. I mentioned yesterday that as far as concentration camp Dachau was concerned, things were somewhat different from Karl's description here.
The man mentioned in the little book under concentration camp Dachau, Brecht had been a member of my department earlier, and he worked on construction matters for the special task units in Munich. I had to transfer Brecht at the time to the commandant's office in Dachau camp. He was under the commandant of the concentration camp at that period. As I mentioned before, the Dachau camp at that time belonged to the party. The construction of the concentration camp was carried out with Reich funds. For that reason I was given at that time the order to supervise the construction of the Dachau camp from the point of view of legal construction matters, which I stated before. What happened to Brecht later on I could not follow. I believe he remained with one of the construction managements in Dachau, but when he had finished his construction task in Dachau his official activities were over, and later on he was with one of the construction managements in Dachau. There were one, two, three and four, at certain times, and he carried out more construction work there. Any more precise details about him I am unable to give you, but I wish to state that these statements come purely from my memory.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)