Q. Now, I would like for a few moments to go into the organization of the offices a little more in detail. The conventration at Dachau was owned prior to 1933 by the Bavarian Government which was by a State agency; is that right?
A. Prior to 1933, no. After 1933.
Q. I am talking about the Bavarian Government and the Dachau concentration camp. I am asking you if prior to 1933 the Dachau area did not belong to the Bavarian Government?
A. Yes, I mentioned that yesterday. It belonged to the Bavarian Administration of Property for those armament enterprises. It was an area which in the first World War consisted of an ammunition factory.
Q. Which belonged to the Bavarian Government?
A. It belonged to the Bavarian Government, yes.
Q. Then in 1933 when the SS took over the camp the entire area was purchased by the NSDAP?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, I would like to show you some charts and go a good deal into detail into the organization and the reason of your offices.
DR. STEIN: May I ask here whether these documents are to become an exhibit?
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, when the proper time comes at the end of the defense's case I want to offer this entire document in evidence. For the time being I would like to reserve this for an exhibit number. I would like to question the witness on the basis of this chart. Any objection?
THE PRESIDENT: If it isn't an exhibit what are you going to use it for now?
MR. ROBBINS: To ask the witness if the chart is correct -- to authenticate them.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you going to qualify the document by the testimony of this witness?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And if he does qualify it then you will offer it in evidence as an exhibit?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, Your Honor. I have not given the witness the entire document. I have at first only given him Table I of Document NO 4007.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, do you know the person who has been discussed here yesterday, Hubert Karl?
A. Yes, I know him.
Q. Would you say that he was the first chief of construction in the SS?
A. I am unable to tell you that because I do not know what Karl did before I returned to the Administrative Office of the SS in August of 1934.
Q. Do you know that he was there in November 1933 in the Dachau construction office?
A. No, I did not know that.
Q. And you know, do you not, that he was chief of the construction office in Dachau until May 1935? That was subsequent to your return.
A. I knew that Karl was working at Dachau, but I did not know what he did their in detail.
Q. You did not know that he was chief of the construction office in Dachau?
A. I knew he was in charge of construction in Dachau, but to what extent he was busy there, I do not know.
Q. And you know that after May 1935 he worked in the Administrative Office in the construction office, which later became V-V in the Administrative Office?
A. All I can remember is that for a short time Karl worked in my department, but I do not remember any details of that position of his. I have already pointed out that the construction office Dachau changed its position very frequently.
At one time they were under me. Then they were independent, but as I remember it today, I can say that the construction office Dachau, even if it was organized with the Administrative Office of the SS at Munich, always worked independently.
Q. Well, witness, just a moment. Let's not try to confuse the issue anymore than it is. If you don't remember something, just say that you do not remember it. Tell us when Karl worked under you in the Administrative Office of the SS. You said you remembered that. I don't want you to tell us anything you don't remember. Just tell us what you do remember.
A. I do not know when that happened.
Q. But you do remember that it happened?
A. He worked under me at one time.
Q. And do you know what position he held under you? He was in charge of V-V-b for a while, wasn't he--V-V-b?
A. I can not even recall a department V-V-b. I said before that any further organizational changes between 1934 and 1 October and 1 April 1939 I can not remember.
Q. You want us to believe that you can not even remember that under you there was an office V-V-b? Is that what you are telling us?
A. I cannot recall with certainty or state under oath that department V-V-b was under me. As far as I have seen from talks here, it might, from an organizational point of view, be organized under the Administrative Office of the SS, but whether it was under me, under my responsibility, I am unable to tell you after these 12 years.
Q. Do you remember that there was a Department V-V-a, V-V-b, V-V-c, V-V-d? That should not be too hard to remember?
A. It is possible, sir, but I do not wish to commit myself under oath because I really do not remember the details. So many things have happened to me, so many changes have occurred, that I do not remember these details after 12 years in order to make a statement under oath.
Q. So if the witness Karl tells us about the organization in detail of this office, you would not be in a very good position to contradict him, would you? Or to confirm him?
A. On oath, I assume I cannot contradict him. If he knows it better, he has to take that on his oath. I am unable to do so. It has been too long ago.
Q. You don't know that in 1940 Karl became the director of Building Inspectorate in Norway?
A. In 1940, as I remember it, he was transferred by the office of construction, Heidelberg, to Norway.
Q. He was not under you then, was he?
A. No, he was not under me at that time.
Q. How it is that you remember something like that, the duties and tasks of this man in 1940 when he was not under you-- completely out in Norway--when two years earlier you cannot remember whether or not he was under you, what office he held?
A. Well, after all, that happened lass long ago than 1935.
Q. Do you remember that in 1941 he became the chief of the Building Inspectorate in the General Government?
A. That might be possible, but I can not recall the details of what he did there when he returned from Norway. I had no contact with him.
Q. Well, you probably would know that he worked in Office C-I sometime in 1942. You have seen that from the documents. Do you recall it from your own memory?
A. That is contained in the organizational chart, that he had orders to look after the business of C-1. I can not recall the details there.
Q. Do you know what his position in C-1 was?
A. Well, as it says on the organizational chart, to look after the business of C-1. Any further explanation is not possible. Whether he was an office chief, for instance, at that time, I do not know. I don't think he was ever confirmed as an office chief.
Q. I think that is right. In 1943, do you know whether or not he was made chief of the Building Inspectorate, South?
A. Yes, I remember that, but not, of course, the precise date.
Q. And under whose supervision would he have been as chief of Building Inspectorate South?
A. Under whose supervision, you mean?
Q. What office in Amtsgruppe C?
A. Office C-V, the Central Building Inspectorate.
Q. Now, will you look at the table I have just given you, Table 1 of Document NO 4007. This is a chart which was drawn up by the person we have been talking about, Karl, which represents the Construction Office of the SS for the period 1933 and 1934. Do you know whether this is a correct representation? You were there for a period.
A. I am unable to comment on this table. Up to this moment I did not know that Karl had been in the Administrative Office of the SS before me, namely, from June 1933 to July 1934.
I was in Toelz, and I had no contact with the Administrative Office of the SS in Munich. What Karl did in Dachau at that time I did not know until this moment.
Q. Well, if he came as Chief of the Construction Office in Dachau on 1 November 1933 then he preceded Pohl in the Construction Office of the SS, did he not? You know that Schneider was Chief of the Administrative Office of the SS? You know that much about the chart.
A. Oberfuehrer Schneider was the Chief of the Administrative Office until 31 December 1933. Then he was dismissed from the service by the Reichsfuehrer.
Q. And succeeded by Pohl?
A. Pohl was appointed his successor in 1934, but I do not know the date.
Q. So you can confirm that the information contained in the first box there, is correct that the Administrative Office was at Munich and headed by Schneider?
A. Schneider was chief of the SS Administrative Office until 31 December 1933.
Q. Now, it seems to me that your testimony yesterday confirms the fact that the concentration camp and the SS training camp were both under the garrison Dachau, which is shown on the lower right hand corner of the chart. Isn't that what you told us yesterday?
A. Under the garrison Dachau? At what period of time, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q. 1933 and 1934.
A. I am unable to tell you whether there was a garrison administration at Dachau at all.
Q. You don't deny that this may have been the case?
A. I simply don't know.
Q. You told us a good deal about the garrison Dachau yesterday, but today you can't remember about it; is that right?
A. If you please, you are speaking about 1933 and 1934, whereas I was speaking about 1936 and 1937, not 1933 and 1934.
Q. All right, let's come to the later period. I show you Table No. 2 of this same document. This is the organization plan drawn by Karl for 1935 to 1938. Can you confirm that the Administrative Office of the SS was still in Munich and it was under Pohl during that period?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And that you were in charge of Main Department V-5, Construction Affairs?
A. I cannot recall that I was in charge of Main Department V-5.
Q. Come now, you told us that five or six times.
A. I did not say anything of that sort at all. I did not recall that an organization called V-5 existed. The civilian employee, Dinkel, was never under me at any time, therefore this chart is incorrect as it is drawn up here. For a certain period of time Karl was under me. Whether ho was under me in everything he did, I am unable to remember. I said before that at that time so many changes were carried out.
Q. You told us that. If you can't remember that there was an office V-5, I don't think there is very much point in discussing this any further. Is that your testimony that you don't remember that there was an office V-5?
A. I cannot recall it well enough in order to speak about it under oath.
Q. You don't remember that, I suppose you wouldn't then, that under V-5/A, which was also under you according to Karl, the building matters for the concentration camp Dachau were handled. Do you remember that?
A. I mentioned yesterday that as far as concentration camp Dachau was concerned, things were somewhat different from Karl's description here.
The man mentioned in the little book under concentration camp Dachau, Brecht had been a member of my department earlier, and he worked on construction matters for the special task units in Munich. I had to transfer Brecht at the time to the commandant's office in Dachau camp. He was under the commandant of the concentration camp at that period. As I mentioned before, the Dachau camp at that time belonged to the party. The construction of the concentration camp was carried out with Reich funds. For that reason I was given at that time the order to supervise the construction of the Dachau camp from the point of view of legal construction matters, which I stated before. What happened to Brecht later on I could not follow. I believe he remained with one of the construction managements in Dachau, but when he had finished his construction task in Dachau his official activities were over, and later on he was with one of the construction managements in Dachau. There were one, two, three and four, at certain times, and he carried out more construction work there. Any more precise details about him I am unable to give you, but I wish to state that these statements come purely from my memory.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Take your seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HAENSEL (ATTORNEY FOR DEFENDANT GOERG LOERNER): Would you permit me to say a few short words? I would appreciate it if you would permit me to tell the Tribunal until the beginning of next week, if I could introduce a series of letters here in this Tribunal, which letters deal with a legal question. This question is whether according to Control Council Law No. 10 and according to the law of occupation a conspiracy can be prosecuted independently from other crimes, independent crimes, particularly of participation in violating the laws of war and the laws of humanity. This question has now come to a good point. During the trials against the jurists, the Justice Trial, I had an opportunity to make certain remarks and the result seems to be that this basic question will be a project for all these current trials and will be probably be dealt with on the 9th of this month and, in order to prepare these problems, I am privately working on compiling all these documents in a trial brief. Therefore, I would appreciate it, if you could possibly excuse me if I leave here and I would like to introduce that trial brief, which I believe should be ready by Monday for this Tribunal and it would also be officially announced how this problem will further develop, if you wanted to make this announcement.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Haensel, this question of conspiracy under the Ordinance and under the Control Law is one which will affect all of the Tribunals. I spoke to Judge Beals last night and it is being arranged that all Tribunals will sit together -- I am not sure of the date; I think it is the 12th of July, but I am not sure -- at which time the whole question will be argued by the defense and the prosecution and a uniform ruling will be laid down for the guidance of all the Tribunals so that there won't be any problem of one Tribunal going one way and another the other. Does that change your plan any?
DR. HAENSEL: No, I have planned the question and I merely don't believe you have to introduce me here, do you?
THE PRESIDENT: As I remember it, you are Dr. Haensel. Yes, we have missed you, but we haven't forgotten you.
DR. FRANZ EIRENSCHMALZ -- Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION -- Continued BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, how that you had time during the recess to give some thought, perhaps, to the nature of the Oberland League, I ask you if you care to change your testimony any with regard to its criminal nature, or do you wish to stand on what you have already said?
A I have no reason whatsoever to change my answers concerning the Oberland.
Q You told us just before the recess that Brecht, who is listed on the chart, was under your supervision, is that correct, on Table 2?
A On Table 2 I can see that Dinkel was never subordinated to my Department V-V/C and also the Department V-V/D.
Q Dinkel? I am talking about Brecht. You gave a long discussion about Brecht and you said he was subordinated to you.
A Brecht was subordinated to me before somewhere else, that is, before we came to Dachau.
Q He was never subordinated to you in your position in the Verwaltungsamt SS?
A I was in the Verwaltungsamt SS Department first.
Q What was he subordinated to you in? Drawing these insignie that you were talking about? In what capacity was he subordinated to you?
AAs far as I can recall Brecht in 1935 came to my office as a civilian employee; if I am not very much mistaken, he was assigned to me by the Labor Office. In my office he dealt with a construction matter for the SS in Munich which was under my supervision and that construction matter had been completed at the time.
Q At what time?
A That was 1935 or 1936. I can't recall the exact date any more.
Q Go ahead.
AAnd then I transferred Brecht to the concentration camp kommandantur in Dachau. At the kommandantur of the concentration camp in Dachau, as far as I can recall there was a technical department which was subordinated to the camp engineer, Weiss. Brecht was transferred to that technical department and I can't recall that he even had his office in that technical department.
Q This technical department, the construction department in Dachau, was subordinate to the garrison administration in Dachau, wasn't it?
AAt that time there was no garrison administration at Dachau. He was subordinated to the concentration camp Kommandantur.
Q We are talking about the period of 1935 and 1936 right now; is that right?
A Yes, indeed. Yes, he was only transferred in 1936, I believe.
Q You say there was no garrison at Dachau at that time?
A I know of no garrison administration at Dachau at that time.
Q If you said there was yesterday, you were wrong. is that right?
A I can't recall having said anything about a garrison administration in Dachau yesterday.
Q This local construction technical organization in Dachau was subordinate to the Verwaltungsamt SS, was it not?
A I didn't understand the question. Would you repeat it please?
Q The local construction agency which you have just talked about where Brecht was working was under the Verwaltungsamt SS?
AAs far as I recall that construction department was not under the administrative office SS.
Q Where was it? First let me tell you this. If Karl says that it was under the Verwaltungsamt SS in his affidavit, does this change your testimony any?
A Just as little as I can recall the exact conditions at the time-and that is twelve years ago--I doubt very much if Karl himself could possibly recall all those things to such an extent that he could possibly testify here under oath by making binding statements. I have already said before that in Dachau every four weeks there would be a change in the authority with the administrative offices. One man was transferred there one time, and a little while afterwards he was transferred somewhere else. If one of these construction managers was no longer liked, then he was transferred or subordinated to me for fourteen days or three weeks, and after four weeks again the whole thing-
Q It's not necessary to repeat all of that every time you answer a question. Where was Brecht subordinate? To what organization when he was working on a concentration camp?
AAs far as I can recall he was subordinated to the Commander.
Q In turn to the Inspectorate? Is that your theory?
A I don't know if the agency was at the Inspectorate at the time. I couldn't tell you that now.
Q You don't think possibly it was under Eicke? Isn't that what you told us yesterday? You told us it wasn't under the Verwaltungsamt; it was under Eicke?
A I said that the concentration camp construction management was under Eicke, by stating however, that Dachau had a special position with reference to the question of property there.
Q Now, Karl says in his affidavit that when he came to Dachau the 1st of November 1933 he relieved Eicke of Eicke's responsibility for building matters in Dachau. Would that help your recollection any?
A I have already stated that I can't give you any information about the time 1933-1934 because I was not in the administrative office SS at the time.
Q He says that he continued to be the chief construction officer from that time, 1st November 1933, on, until the reorganization at a much later date, around 1938. Would that help your recollection any, that he relieved Eicke's responsibility completely and that he was the chief of constructions matters at Dachau?
A I didn't quite get the whole connection of the question. However, I don't believe that it was just stated as I need mentioned it before, yesterday.
Q Just to leave this subject with one last question, it is your testimony, is it, that Brecht made no reports to you, was not subordinate to you in any way in his activities in the concentration camp at Dachau?
A I can't recall such a subordination in Dachau. I have already pointed out that with reference to the constructional police questions, I took care of those matters of the NSDAP; and I also supervised certain things. But I can recall that all the construction measures themselves were dealt with by the Kommandantur, and I didn't pursue the whole question because through my activity with the special task group I was not in a position to do so.
Q You said yesterday with regard to Dachau, and I quote: "As the commissioner for the NSDAP, I had to exercise the supervision with regard to the establishment of buildings in conformity with building laws in Dachau," and you said that you inspected the Dachau camp three or four times while it was being enlarged. Do you stick to that statement?
A Yes, indeed I stick to that statement.
Q And you did that? You carried out hose functions as an officer in the Verwaltungsamt?
A Yes, indeed, as a deputy of the Reich treasury, of the Reich Exchequer. The whole territory had been left to the SS by the NSDAP for their own use, and the owner was the NSDAP.
DR. VON STEIN: The prosecutor has just now stated that there is an affidavit here, and on the basis of that affidavit this defendant has answered questions. I have no knowledge of such an affidavit and I haven't seen such an affidavit so far. I should like to take the liberty of asking you a question as to whether this affidavit will actually be introduced as an affidavit.
MR. ROBBINS: I was just about to distribute the affidavit. I have only three of four additional questions on this complex with regard to the affidavit; and I'll give you a copy right now.
Q Would you turn very briefly to Paragraph 17 of this affidavit, Witness? Karl says that the construction service was taken away from Main Department V IV and an independent Department V V under Eirenschmalz was established.
That is in conformity with your testimony yesterday, although today you seem not to be able to remember it. He also says that in V V A this office, which is shown on Table 2 of his chart, was competent for the construction of Death Head formations and the construction of concentration camps. He says that examples of the construction activities were barracks for special duty troops, construction at Dachau concentration camp, and Buchenwald concentration camp. Can you either confirm or deny those statements?
A No, I absolutely deny those statements. I never did have anything to do with the construction of the concentration camp of Buchenwald.
Q You do not recall, as he says, that he was chief of Department V V B? You don't remember that? You don't remember that he was chief of V V B?
A I do not deny the possibility.
Q Just a moment. Look up at Paragraph 16, the last sentence in that paragraph. He says that building activities which were carried out under your Department V IV before the reorganization included maternity hospital for Lebensborn at Steinhoering in Upper Bavaria. Do you remember that? Then also the service buildings for Himmler and Gmund and accomodations for Himmler's employees. Do you remember any of that?
A Yes, indeed, I can recall that allright. I admit that I knew that the reconstruction of the maternity hospital in Steinhoering was known to me and that the Gmund on the Tegernsee was also under my supervision. As far as this building is concerned which was built for Himmler's employees, as far as I can recall, I really didn't work on that. I believe that they were independent; Karl was independent for those matters. However, I should like to point out that the construction manager for the Lebensbornheim was not Karl at the time. Maybe he was there after a short period of time, but-
Q He doesn't say that he was. He says that it was under V IV.
A Oh, yes, I'm sorry. I misunderstood you.
Q Now, glance down at the last sentence just before Paragraph 18. He says all of the departments chiefs were subordinated to Eiremsemalz' organization but dealt directly with Pohl, chief of the Verwaltungsamt SS regarding matters of fact. This organization existed until June 1938. Do you remember that is true?
A I'm sorry. I again didn't understand your question.
Q Read the last sentence in Paragraph 17, the one that proceeds immediately Paragraph 18. Is that correct? Do you see it? All department chiefs were subordinate to Eirenschmalz organizationally.
A I can't find the sentence. I have already pointed out that the chief of Department V/c, Dinkel, was not subordinated to me; and I have also pointed out that the chief of Department V/d, Dr. Fliehrm was not under my subordination either. In both cases the members of those departments were subordinated to the chief of the administration office directly. I have also stated that Karl was under my subordination for a very short period of time; but I can't give you exactly the precise date, nor at what time it was and what the ties were. There was a constant change.
Q Let me direct your attention just a moment to a statement you just made, that V/c was not under you, the garrison Dachau, except the concentration camp, referring to Table 2. You told us yesterday that the garrison Dachau was under your supervision. Don't you remember that?
A No, I didn't say that.
Q Karl also says that you were in addition to being chief of V V also chief of V V/a.
MR. ROBBINS: I might point out to the Court that on Table 2 there is a misprint. Immediately under V V there's the office V V/a. It reads V V/2. That is a typographical error.
THE PRESIDENT: The "2" should be an "a"?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes sir.
Q He says that in addition to being chief of V V you were chief of Department V V/a. You say you have no recollection about that? Is that right?
A I have stated that I was not chief of Main Department V but I was only in charge of Department V V/a.
Q Oh, you were in charge of V V/a?
A I can't recall the organization itself. However, after looking at the documents I can recall that there was a subordination and a subdivision at the time which, however, was carried out organizationally. But I didn't have these people under my subordination. I just can't recall about Karl now. However, I can tell for sure that Dinkel was never under my subordination nor was Fliehr. Fliehr was subordinated to me in Munich once upon a time when I had him as my collaborator in the Department V/a, and he carried out the planning for me, or, rather, the first planning for the Berghaus at Sudelfeld, whereupon he was transferred to Dachau. From there on he was no longer under my subordination. He was not under my subordination for the settlement even of Dachau. I did not even draw one single pencil line for the settlement.
Q Let's move on to another subject. Will you turn to Table 3, please, of Document NO-007. This document or table lists you under Frank as a construction referent. Is that correct?
A Yes, indeed, I was under Frank with the administrative office of the operational main office in the SS from 1940 to 1942.
Q This is correct for the period from 1940 to 1942; is that right?
A Yes, indeed, towards the end of 1939 or early in 1940 until the 31st of January, yes, 1942.
Q Looking at the part on the left side of the chart, that part under Pohl, can you confirm that this is correct?
A You mean the first little square or what?
Q No, the entire line under Pohl.
A I can't recall this subdivision by heart, and I can only look at those subdivided fields there in this document. At the time I didn't have too much to do with the Main Office Building or the Main Office Economics, and I didn't have any contact with them. Therefore, I can only recall the organizational chart of the Main Office Budget and Construction or Building from 1940 to 1942, I don't have any personal knowledge about those things.