On that occasion again I did not enter the actual concentration camp.
Q What was your impression after you had seen these concentration camps?
A I have described my peace time impressions and during the war I could not form any particular impression, because I did not enter the actual protective custody camp.
Q Were you also in Auschwitz?
A Yes, I said so.
Q When you were in Auschwitz did you receive any knowledge about the extermination of the Jews?
A No.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When was he in Auschwitz?
WITNESS: I said in my affidavit in 1943, but I believe I made a mistake there. As I can recall it now, it was in the Spring of 1944, but I am not quite sure of the precise date.
Q What did you know of the Action Reinhardt?
A I heard of the Action Reinhardt here in this court.
Q Did you know what the Osti was?
A No, the term was completely alien to me.
Q Did you have any knowledge of the fact that medical experiments were carried out in concentration camps on human beings?
A No.
Q When did you hear about that for the first time?
A Here, in this trial.
Q Did you ever take part at the meeting of the commandants? By that I mean the actual meetings, when the commandants of the concentration camps met?
A No, I did not take part in any such meeting.
Q In Volume XIV there is Document 1915, Exhibit 396, and you are mentioned in the distribution list.
A I do not recall that I had anything to do with the factory, nor can I imagine what I would have had to do with it. Why my name is mentioned on the distribution list is more than I can say. Whether perhaps the possibility exists that I should have been connected with it, I am unable to say after five years.
Q Did you have any connection with Office Group W?
A No.
Q Did you have any connection with Office Group D at the time when your office was in Oranienburg?
A No, I believe that I entered their office building only two or three times when I had to see the doctor. That was my only contact with Office Group D.
Q Why was your Office Group C transferred to Oranienburg?
A My office was not tied to Berlin, because I did not have anything to do with Office Group C itself and in Oranienburg there were ample accommodations available. The transfer was carried out during my absence. When I returned in January 1944 from my sick leave the office had already been transferred to Oranienburg.
Q Why was it transferred?
A The building had received another direct hit.
Q Did you hear anything of Himmler's speech at Cracow?
A Counsel, I forgot to mention before that on one or two occasions I visited the commandant's office in Oranienburg.
Q When was that?
A That was between 1944 and 1945.
Q Why did you go there? Did you have anything official to do there?
A No, I had nothing official to do there, but in the District Commandant's Office there was a barber whom I used to see quite often.
Q You were asked whether you heard anything about Himmler's speech at Cracow.
A No I heard about that for the first time here in Nuernberg.
Q Did you hear anything about Himmler's speech at Posen?
A The same applies here. I only heard about that here in Nuernberg.
Q Was the plan on the part of the Reich Government to exterminate the Jews known to you?
A No. No, I had no knowledge of it.
Q What do you know about the Pogrom of November 1938?
A On that day I was in Graz in order to inspect the Building Inspectorate, the Building Agency for the barracks. When I went there in the morning I saw what damage had been done.
Q What did you say about that?
A I was highly indignant because I myself at that time had the greatest difficulties in obtaining sufficient glass for the barracks and through that action thousands of square meters of glass were destroyed and it certainly was not good advertising for the German people abroad.
Q What was your attitude toward the Jewish program altogether?
A I did not think much about that problem, as in the building business no Jewish competition existed.
Q Were you familiar with the party program of the NSDAP concerning its attitude?
A What particular time are you speaking about now?
Q When you entered the party administration.
A Whether I knew everything about it I am unable to tell you now. The political aspect did not interest me too much.
Q Did you read any books about the Jewish problem, for instance, did you see the "Stuermer"?
A Well, you came across the "Stuermer" sometimes on a trip, for instance, but its level was so low that for a normal human being, it was hardly the literature which he wanted to read normally.
Q What newspapers did you read?
A I just read the ordinary daily papers.
Q Did you read the special paper of the SS?
A On some occasions, yes.
Q Did you read any books, such as Hitler's Book, "Mein Kampf"?
A I started reading the book in 1940, but I did not finish it. I was interested in sports and not so much in literature.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 27 June 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al., defendents, sitting at Nurnberg Germany, on 27 June 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Robert M. Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
DR. von STEIN: May I continue, Your Honor?
BY DR. STEIN:
Q. Witness, a few more questions to you. What do you know about the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto?
A. About the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto I learned from the documents. Before that I only knew from the papers, about the uprising which had occurred and which was beaten down by the military forces.
Q. In your testimony yesterday you told us about your tasks in Office C-6. You told us that your Departments C-1 and C-2 were dissolved in the course of years, and in the end only C-3, the Auditing Department, remained. When you gave such a description one might conceive the idea that your office was only a very insignificant one. On the other hand, there was a terrific shortage of personnel during the late phases of the war. I should therefore, like to ask you why your office had not been dissolved?
A. As far as the main Offices C-6-1 and C-6-2 construction maintenance and plant economy were concerned I had suggested to Dr. Kammler in the middle of 1945 to dissolve these offices because they were no longer important, particularly with reference to the new regulations of the allocation of building material, and because of the open budget.
This suggestion was refused by Kammler, and he pointed out that he had certain plans for the future. He wanted at all costs to have the two offices occupied and to keep them in operation, even if only one man would be working there, or at least if it only existed on paper. As far as C-6-3 is concerned, the Preliminary Auditing Department, I wish to state that office was continued by request of the Reich Auditing Court. All building projects from 1934 up to 1942 had not yet been audited. That office could just as easily have been dissolved, and the auditing of the bills could have been postponed until after the war.
Q. Let us assume that your office does not exist at all, and it was dissolved, would that have meant that the whole administrative machinery of the WVHA would have been disturbed and what would have been the effect elsewhere?
A. Had C-6 been dissolved that would have made no difference to the administration of Office Group-C. In other words, construction would have still been continued is the office had not existed. Yes, that is right.
Q. In that connection it was connected with the open budget?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now about your membership in the SS. You told us that in 1931--in 1932 you became a full time member. Yesterday you said that since that time you did not serve with the SS anymore. My question id, as time went on from 1932 onwards, did you have any point of contact with the General-SS?
A. No I did not have any contact with the General-SS.
Q. Did any meetings take place and did you take part in them?
A. No, no such meetings took place.
Q. Why were you promoted from Standartenfuehrer?
A. My last promotion took place in 1938, and therefore, in 1942 it was my turn to be promoted again.
Q. Had you done anything outstanding, and were you made a Standartenfuehrer for that reason?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. If you had been transferred to a different unit, because as you told us you had volunteered in 1940, and in 1942 you were to be transferred to the troops, because you did not wish to join the WVHA, would your rank have entitled you to work in your position?
A. Well, the possibility would have existed that I would have served below my actual rank; such cases occurred in isolated instances.
Q. The witness Frank stated in his testimony that your transfer was not carried out at the time because you did not have sufficient knowledge to carry out that function with the troops. Did you apart from your knowledge as an architect have any other qualification which would have been used within the position of a Standartenfuehrer; perhaps of a military nature, or of any other type?
A . No, I had no such qualifications, excerpt that I knew all about construction matters.
Q. When were you taken prisoner?
A. I was captured on the 4th of May, 1945.
Q. Where were you at the time?
A. In the hospital of Bayrisch-zell. On the 28th of April, 1945, I went to the hospital, because my old. ailment had come back. I was captured in the hospital by the American Army.
Q. What happened to the files in your office?
A. In accordance with orders, as early as the beginning of March, 1945, I evacuated my files to Southern Germany by railway and those files and all the luggage of my office and the luggage of my colleagues never reached their destination. They fell victim to an air raid.
DR VON STEIN: Mr. President, I have no further questions to ask this witness.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you said you had no contact with the SS. I think you said, "real contact." Well, you retained your membership, did you not?
A. I was speaking about the General SS, the formation of the SS. I was working in the Administrative Office of the SS and I had no contact with the formation of the General-SS after 1942.
Q. Well, after 194-2, were you not a member of the SS? I don't mean of the Allgemeine SS, but of the Waffen-SS.
A. If your Honor please, on the 1st of April, 1936, I was transferred to the Waffen SS officially. From 1932 to 1936 I was a member of the Allgemeine SS but I no longer had any contact with the actual troop service of the Allgemeine SS. I was merely working in the Administrative Office.
Q. Well, you remained a member of the Waffen-SS from 1936 or did you not--1932--1936 is right.
A. Yes, from 1936 on.
Q. And you worked for the WVHA, which was an SS organization from 1936 to 1945?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you had a rank in the SS?
A. Yes, indeed. I did.
Q. What did you mean when you said you had no real contact with them?
A. I meant by that with the actual formation of the General or Allgemeine SS, with the actual units. In 1931 I joined Unit 21 of the General SS, the Allgemeine SS, and had the more or less semi-military service with them, but in 1942 I was taken over on a full time basis into the staff of the Administrative Office so that I no longer served with the Troop Unit. That's is what I wanted to say.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, I understood you to say yesterday that you knew nothing about gas chambers and crematoria in the concentration camps.
A. What I said yesterday was that I did not know anything about gas chambers and that in 1944 for the first time I heard in a conversation that a number of concentration camps had crematoria.
Q. You stated that that did not seem strange to you, because, since concentration camps were as large as cities, there was no reason why there shouldn't be a crematorium, such as one sees in large cities. How did a subject like that come up in the conversation, unless there was more detail about the nature of the crematorium?
A. Details were never mentioned. It was generally known in a more intimate circle, but no details were actually discussed, because cities had their crematoria where people who had died a natural death were cremated and that was the same in my opinion in a concentration camp.
Q. All right. You know today that there were death chambers and you know now how the crematories were operated. You know that today, don't you?
A. Yes, I saw that in the documents here.
Q. And you know also that there was a definite machinery needed to operate these gas chambers and the crematoria?
A. Your Honor, I don't know anything about the operation of a crematoria.
Q. But you know there had to be certain machines; there had to be personnel; there had to be equipment; there had to be poison gas; there had to be these chemicals; you know that now, don't you?
A. Yes, I saw that here in the documents.
Q. And you know now that was part of the equipment of the concentration camps which had these gas chambers and crematoria?
A. Yes, that knowledge I posses today, Your Honor.
Q. Yes, and you know also that that all came under plant management. Don't you know that today?
A. Your Honor, it was not part of the camp. It wasn't equipment in that sense. The camp management did not take care of that sort of thing.
Q. In your affidavit on page 61, paragraph 20 says, "The Section Plant Management, supervised the technical equipment on the various SS properties." Wouldn't the operation of a gas chamber come within the purview of the phrase, "technical equipment?"
A. But it is not part of the equipment in that sense. "Equipment in that sense is probable utilities, water, current, heating, but in a crematorium as far as I know, parts of the equipment was under the supervision of the Medical Services and that had to be regulated as part of the Medical Services.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination, Mr. Robbins?
DR. HEIM: Dr. Heim on behalf of Dr. Rauschenbach for August Frank.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q. Witness, you told us in the course of your testimony that you had heard about the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto through the German newspapers. I myself know very well that German papers did not carry any reports about the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto. Did you not confuse that destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto with the uprising under General Bor in 1944?
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I don't think this is a proper type of question to put to the witness. Counsel states he knows from his own knowledge such and such and then asks the witness, isn't that true.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the statement of counsel as to what he himself knows is, of course, improper. The question which he is about to answer and had stated in part would be proper cross-examination.
DR. HEIM: The question which I wanted to put to the witness, was, "Did you confuse the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto with the uprising under General Bor in 1944?"
THE PRESIDENT: That's a proper question. The prosecution objects to your statement as a matter of fact that the German papers did not carry the story of the Warsaw Ghetto. Of course, that's a statement, not a question. Your question is proper and may be answered, except that there is one word in it that the Tribunal does not understand: "With the up rising of--"
INTERPRETER: Under General Bor. He commanded the Polish forces.
A. Yes, I confused the two things. I meant the up rising under General Bor. Nothing else was published in the papers.
DR. HEIM: Thank you. No further questions.
BY DR. MAYER (Attorney for the Defendant Kiefer):
Q. Witness, I only wish to ask you one question, namely, about your deputizing for Kammler. In your affidavit, which is in Document Book I, and you know it, you say, under paragraph 22, that up to May, 1943, you had been Kammler's deputy and you continued to say, "I was relieved and SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Kiefer took over." I wish to ask you, Witness, what do you mean by "relieved."
A. I explained yesterday that I knew nothing about the fact that Kiefer deputized. I saw that here in the documents. When I formulated my affidavit I pointed out that fact, but my statement was not taken into consideration when the affidavit was finally drawn up. The interrogator told me, "it doesn't matter." My defense counsel was present when that statement was made.
Q. The order on the basis of which Kiefer was deputized, you saw from the files?
A. Yes, I saw that only in the documents here.
Q. And you also saw that it dates from September, 1943?
A. Yes, that is correct. I was not in the office at that time.
Q. May I conclude from that, therefore, that you did not know anything about a successor at that time?
A. No, I did not know anything.
DR. MAYER: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other cross-examination by defense counsel? If not, Mr. Robbins, you may cross-examine.
Q Witness, I would like to run over very quickly with you the chronological order of your positions. I don't think it's very clear on the record. You became active full-time in the SS in October 1932, you said?
A Yes, 1932.
Q And at that time you designed insignia for the SS?
A Yes.
Q And in what main office did this department come under?
A It was the Administrative Office SS in the Main-Office SS.
Q The Administrative Office of the SS?
A Yes, quite.
Q And you continued in that position designing insignia until June of 1933?
A Yes.
Q Then in June 1933 you went to a civilian office, you said, you carry out large construction enterprises. Will you tell us very briefly, the nature of that construction?
A In 1933 I was given leave and so I joined a civilian named Josef Hellmann in Munich. He gave me a job and I worked on the construction of the SS school in Toelz. The old school, that is to say.
Q Is that the only construction project you worked on?
A Then for a brief period I worked on the building of the NSDAP in Munich and then I was transferred back to the Administrative Office of the SS when my leave had expired.
Q Both of these projects which you have just mentioned were carried out locally by a civilian construction firm; is that right?
A Yes, a civilian construction firm.
Q And it was under the general supervision and the ministerial level of the Administrative Office of the SS, wasn't it?
A No, it wasn't under the Administrative Office of the SS. It was a civilian office. The civilian orders, namely, for construction and the pressure of the NSDAP on a normal private contract which is quite a usual thing.
I was paid not by the SS nor by the Party. I was paid to the amount of 350 Marks per month by that civilian architect and I remained with that architect.
Q What organization in the SS gave the order or the requisition for the building of the SS school that you worked on?
A The order came from the Treasurer of the NSDAP. It was his affair.
Q And then you returned to the Administrative Office -- well, as a matter of fact, you were only lent to the private construction firm, weren't you? You were still attached to the Administrative Office?
A I was still a member of the Administrative Office.
Q And you were on leave, were you not, from the Administrative office?
A Yes, I had been given leave, as I stated.
Q And then in June 1934 you returned to active duty with the Administrative Office.
A Yes, I did.
Q And you said in June 1934 you were given the task of supervising the repair of buildings for accommodations of political agencies under Administrative Office of the SS; is that right?
A They weren't political agencies. It was a military unit at that time and was called political service and that unit was the predecessor of the SS-Verfuegungstruppe, the special task unit. They were a guard battalion guarding public buildings in Munich, the population there, and for that guard battalion accommodations were built.
Q And that is the only kind of buildings that were built? Just for guard units? No concentration camps?
A No, not for concentration camps. Only for the guard or the guard battalion at Munich.
Q And nothing for the guards of concentration camps?
A No, not in 1934. I am not quite sure. At least I cannot recall it after 12 years.
Q And at that time in June 1934 what Main Department of the Administrative Office was your construction office under? Was that V-IV?
A In 1934 Main Department V-IV did not exist. At least I don't think it did. I see from the document here that the reorganization was carried out only in October 1935. I cannot recall the details of that organization. It happened too long ago.
Q It was just a construction office? It wasn't under any main division? It was immediately under the Chief of the Administrative Office.
A It was Main Department V-IV and in that Main Department was V-IV-C. Nobody was in charge of V-IV, therefore, it was directly under the Chief.
Q That was after the re-organization in October 1935 but just for one brief moment I want to direct your attention to the period before October 1935 -- between June 1934 and October 1935, when there was no Department V-IV.
A I do not recall these details any more.
Q Then there came a time when V-IV-C was de-activated and reorganized and became Department V-V in the Administrative Office. When was that?
A I am unable to tell you. I do not know any more that on 1 October 1935 any change occurred. So many changes occurred at that time that it is quite impossible to keep trace of all of the details. To the best of my belief and knowledge I cannot give you the details of the organization at the time.
Q Well, there wasn't very much difference in the channels or in the actual organization or the duties in your position as Chief of V-IV-C and as Chief of V-V, was there?
A I am unable to say anything about that time. It was 12 years ago. So many things have happened since the war it's quite impossible to recall the details of that period.
Q It's very unfortunate, witness. Then there came a time you told us in October 1938, then you went to Berlin. Is that the first time you left the Administrative Office?
A I did not leave the Administrative Office.
Q What the purpose of your transfer in October 1938 to Berlin?
A The whole agency was transferred to Berlin but the Administrative of the SS was transferred to Berlin in stages. I left, roughly, on the 18th or 20 of October 1938 and went to Berlin.
Q And then you remained in the Administrative Office until what date?
A I remained with the Administrative Office until 1 April 1939 when it was re-organized into the Main Office Budget and Buildings but I would like to point out again this re-organization is not too clear to me and I base my statement only on what I have seen in the documents here.
Q Then in April 1939 did you become a member of the Main Office Haushalt und Bauten, Budget and Building?
A Yes, I did.
Q And that was in Office 2, was it not?
A Yes, my Main Department had been attached to Office 2.
Q And what position did you hold in Haushalt und Bauten?
A I was Main Department Chief for the construction of the Special Tasks Unit of the Verfuegungstruppe.
Q And in this position you had nothing whatever to do with the construction of the concentration camps?
A. No, in that position I had nothing to do with the construction of concentration camps.
Q. Tell us, if you will, during that period -- who handled the construction of concentration camps?
A. It was planned and carried out at that time, let us say 1 April 1939, by the Building Department of the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps.
Q. Eicke had turned over all of his control of Building matters sometime during 1940; you told us that yesterday and you told us that it went to the Administrative Agency of the SS. Let's not play hideand-seek. Where did it go?
A. In 1940, although I do not know the exact date and I can only speak from my memory, the Construction Department with the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was turned over by Office 2, Construction, of the Main Office Budget and Building. It continued with the same title under Eicke. He was transferred in 1940 but I cannot say the exact date.
Q. We have your curricula vitae not up into April 1939 when you were transferred to Office 2 of Haushalt und Bauten, Budget and Building. How long did you stay with that organization?
A. I didn't understand the question, sir.
Q. How long did you continue to work after April 1939 with the Main Office, Haushalt und Bauten?
A. Until the end of 1939 or the beginning of 1940. I am unable to give you the exact dates of my transfer to the Waffen-SS.
Q. Around March or April 1940, wasn't it?
A. I do not know. It might have been in the late autumn, of 1939 or the first weeks of 1940 but I am unable to specify that.
Q. At that time where did you go?
A. I went to the Administrative Office of the Main Operational Office.
Q. And your immediate superior was the defendant Frank?
A. Yes.
Q. And what position did you hold in that office?
A. I took over Main Department V-V of the Administrative Office of the Waffen-SS, which must not be confused with Office V of the old days.
Q. And what sort of construction matters, very briefly, did you deal with there?
A. In V-V I was in charge of the maintenance of the accommodations of the Waffen-SS in the home area.
Q. You wish to tell us there were no main contacts whatever between that office and the concentration camps or the Death Head Unit -guard for concentration camps?
A. No, I had no contact at all with those agencies at that time.
Q. Either directly or indirectly?
A. Neither directly or indirectly.
A. And how long did you stay with Office V-V under Frank?
A. Until 1 February 1942.
Q. And then you became Office Chief in the WVHA?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, you don't claim, do you, that when you joined the SS in 1931 that you were forced in any way or drafted into that organization?
A. No, I said that I joined it voluntarily.
Q. And when you were transferred to the Waffen-SS you were transferred as a member of the Allgemeine-SS, weren't you? You were given orders as an SS man?
A. I was transferred to the Waffen-SS as a Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q. And as a member of the Allegemeine-SS?
A. From that moment I was no longer a member of the AllegemeineSS or the General SS. I was a member of the SS-Verfuegungstruppe, a special task troop.
Q. I understand that but you were given orders as an SS-man to transfer to the Waffen-SS?
A. Yes, I was obligated to do so and I was shown a document which I signed and that completed my transfer to the special task unit.
Q. The Waffen-SS wasn't drafting people at that time, was it? It wasn't drafting civilians?
A. I never said it did. I was transferred.
Q. It didn't though. I didn't say you said it did. I am just asking you that the Waffen-SS was not drafting people at that time in 1936 in April -- was drafting civilians?
A. No drafting was done on the whole. Everybody volunteered at that time on the basis of a four years or 8 years service or otherwise you had to obligate yourself until your 45th year of age.
Q. When did the SS first start drafting civilians into organization, if ever?
A. I don't know. I think it must have been at the beginning of the war and transfers from other branches of the Wehrmacht might have occurred on the basis of the orders but I cannot give you any information on that point. I do not say that it was impossible that individual persons who were transferred from the Luftwaffe to the SS were affected prior to 1939.
Q. You told us yesterday that in 1922 or 1923 you were a member of the Oberland-League in Munich. This was an organization which was a predecessor of the Nazi Party, was it not?
A. No, it wasn't a predecessor of the NSDAP Oberland was a union of patriotic associations with patriotic tendencies and at that time did not correspond with the NSDAP or had any other contact with it. It was a member of the patriotic associations up to a point but otherwise it was completely independent.
Q. But it was a secret organization and was subsequently declared illegal and was dissolved. Why don't you tell us that?
A. It wasn't a secret organization. It was an officially registered association and on an entirely legal basis. There was nothing secret about it.
Q. You don't know it was considered a secret organization under Sec. 128 of the German Criminal Code?
A. No, I did not know that; the association was a perfectly public one. We appeared in public and had been public meetings and had been recognized by the army at the time. It wasn't a secret organization.
Q. Will you tell us it was never declared illegal in any parts of Germany? It was never declared illegal?
A. I did not know whether it was declared illegal in other parts of Germany. It wasn't illegal in Bavaria. It was perfectly public.
Q. You did not know it was declared illegal for carrying on illegal re-armament and having in its possession secret weapons and for murder?
A. I did not know that.
Q. Suppose you tell us why it was dissolved in November 1923?
A. The association was dissolved because together with other patriotic units it took place in the Munich up-rising in 1923.
Q. By whom was it dissolved?
A. By the Bavarian Government. The association later on was permitted again. In 1925 or 1926 permission was granted again for the association.
Q. And it later merged into the NSDAP?
A. No, it never merged with the NSDAP. As far as I know the association continued to exist up to 1932 or perhaps 1933. As far as I remember, it slowly died a natural death because the members had left and some of them had joined the other parties -- some of them joined the NSDAP. One could not say, as far as I can see, that the association was turned over to the NSDAP.
Q. Did you take part in the Munich Putsch along with the other Party members?
A. I took part with the other members in the Munich rising, yes.