Q Do you have any explanation as to why he would incorporate in his affidavit on the activities of the WVHA this incorrect statement about your office; do you know why he would do that?
A I can only make an assumption here. I think Pohl assumed that it was like that, but actually I never received those accounts myself.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
BY DR. STEIN:
Q On page 4 of the affidavit by Sommer, I refer you to the passage where it says that in the auditing of construction accounts you must have seen that inmates were working on this project. Please give us your comments.
A This view on the part of Sommer is of an academic nature. As far as the auditing of construction accounts was concerned, it did not become evident that inmates were working on these projects. The documents have shown that no accounts were rendered who did construction work in the actual concentration camps. Because the wages were not listed, it might have looked as though this money had been saved, but the sums saved were not explained in detail and they did not state what figures were used, or that inmates were used at all. I would like to point out here that in wartime, apart from the work done by inmates all material for construction work was not paid for. The material came either from the building sites or was bought centrally, or, as in the case of barracks, the supplies came without any bills being sent out. For the most part they came through the agencies of the army and Waffen-SS, or something of that sort. In only a very small part of the construction work material was actually bought, so that when money was saved, apart from money saved by wages, the material which had not been paid for was also part of that sum of money saved. That is the reason why the labor allocation of inmates could not be deducted from such accounts and bills. I would like to point out once again that I never audited any concentration camp construction projects.
In the case of building constructions carried out by private firms, the accounting of the money paid for the inmates reached the owner of the private firm, and he would furnish his bills to the construction agency only in accordance with the estimated cost, and therefore the bills would contain only the actual material supplied, say 1000 cubic meters earth moved or something like that. For the rest I would like to point out that the Reich Court of Audits in wartiie could work without comparing the actual cost with the estimated cost, and was interested only in the actual cost of the material involved.
Q Did you know that the agencies of Office Group C used inmates?
A That the agencies of Office Group C used inmates was known to me.
Q Had you any idea of the number of inmates who worked?
A No, I had no possibility of forming an impression there.
Q Did you yourself have anything to do with the labor allocation of inmates?
A No.
Q Did you see the inmates who did the work?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you see anything particular, what they looked like?
A No.
Q Were they driven on their work?
A I saw no such case where they were mistreated. I did not see one single case of mistreatment.
Q Did you know anything about the working hours of inmates?
A No, I had no idea.
Q Did you know anything about the personal fate of the inmates, why they were in a concentration camp?
A I did not know anymore about why a man was sent to a concentration camp than any other average German. I knew that they had been arrested by the Secret State police. Whether this had been proceded by a trial or any other police court proceedings.
I did not know.
Q Did you make any observations that among the inmates there was a large number of foreigners and Jews?
A I was not in a position to make such observations. I had nothing to do with the inmates and for that reason I didn't look too closely at them.
Q What do you think of the labor allocation of inmates as such?
A If the inmates were used in a humane manner, they should have been happy to be given some work, because that helped to divert their attention from the gloom of their time in confinement. During my own imprisonment -- has now which lasted for a year and a half, I was sorry to see that the SS was not allowed to do any work.
Q When you worked with the SS, did you have anything to do with the construction of gas chambers of crematoria?
A No.
Q In that connection I have to put to you Document NO-2325, which is in Volume 21. It is Exhibit 514. This is an affidavit given by Eichele. On page 3 of this affidavit Eichele says:
"In the summer of 1940 the crematorium was built by the Building Management of Dachau. The order to do so came from the construction office in the main office Construction and Budget (Standartenfuehrer Eirenschmalz) who was then in charge of construction matters in the administrative office of the SS."
Eichle has submitted another affidavit which was given on the 18th of July, 1947 which I shall submit to the Court as Exhibit No. 2. In that affidavit Eichele said that his statement, that you had in 1940 given the order to construct the crematorium was based on a mistake on his part. At the time, Eichele did not know that you were no longer in the Office for the Budget and Construction. That is how Eichele has corrected his earlier statement.
THE PRESIDENT: This is the second exhibit which you have offered. Have you delivered the originals of these exhibits to the SecretaryGeneral?
DR. VON STEIN: Not yet, Your Honor, the translation is not ready yet, but I can submit it to you. But I wanted to submit them altogether in a document book.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, be sure that the original of your exhibit is filed with the Secretary-General. Be sure that the original affidavit, Exhibit 2 and Exhibit 1, are filed with the Secretary-General, and then copies after translation can be furnished to the Court.
DR. VON STEIN: Yes, Your Honor, I will have the documents translated immediately alter the examination of Eirenschmalz has been terminated. I can put in the document immediately because I have the original with me here.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is not necessary to do it immediately, but be sure that the originals are filed with the Court records with the Secretary-General in this Court before we get through so that they will be properly recorded, will you?
DR. VON STEIN: Yes, Your Honor, I will.
WITNESS: Am I to come in at this point to what Eichele said?
BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Tell us briefly about this.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal already knows that before the summer of 1940 this defendant had been transferred to the SS Chief Construction Office, and was out of the WVHA before that. It won't be necessary for you to make that statement over again. We know that now.
BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, who in your opinion, built the gas chambers and crematoria, and what agencies were connected with that? Tell us from the beginning who gave the order, and what happened afterwards until the bills were finally ready, so we know precisely what you and your office had to do with the construction of gas chambers and crematoria.
A. As far as the construction of gas chambers and crematoria is concerned, I cannot say anything at all. I know nothing about it. There fore I cannot even indicate who gave the order. I cannot say what the administrative side of it amounted to; nor do I know who built the crematoria. I can only assume that it was done by one of the construction agencies--but I have no knowledge of my own.
DR, VON STEIN: Mr. President, here we have a witness, Grosch, who is a Prosecution witness. I have asked for this witness to appear tomorrow here and that witness in his affidavit has made precise statements as to how these things were handled when a gas chamber was constructed, for instance. I would be grateful if I could put such questions to that witness tomorrow. To the witness I only have to put these questions today: whether afterwards in his capacity as chief of Office C-6, Main Department 3, he had anything to do with preliminary auditing, and thereby received any knowledge at all of the construction of gas chambers and crematoria. That is the only question which I wish to put today to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you expect that the witness Grosch will be able to tell us who planned or built gas chambers or crematoria?
DR. VON STEIN: If your Honor please, if the veracity of the witness is in order, he has already made such statements in his affidavit. This affidavit is available here. If he maintains these statements we will see that Office C-6 was in no way connected with the construction of gas chambers and crematoria.
But I would like to have the following clarified today: whether later on or once the construction was completed the defendant Eirenschmalz saw anything or heard anything about it on the basis of the bills and accounts.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
DR. VON STEIN: That is the question which I would like now to put to the witness.
BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. Witness, did you understand me? Do you know what questions you are to answer now? Your biggest department was C-6-3, the department of preliminary auditing. I would like to ask you now, on the basis of that preliminary auditing, did you obtain any knowledge at any time of the construction of gas chambers and crematoria? In other words, did bills and accounts reach you concerning the construction of gas chambers and crematoria in your office?
A. I said before that in my office, up to April 1945, not one single bill arrived which was connected with any such construction projects.
DR. VON STEIN: If the Tribunal please, in order to support what the defendant has said just now I shall also submit an affidavit by Frau Barth, who is a resident of Austria. She has given me an affidavit because she is unable to come here in person. From her statement the Court will be able to see what work was done between '42 and '45 in Office C-3, the question whether accounts about gas chambers and crematoria reached that office was also touched upon by that witness.
That affidavit I shall also make part of my document book, and it will become an exhibit.
BY DR. VON STEIN:
Q. You said, witness, that from the accounts you learned nothing about crematoria and gas chambers, did you not? Was there any other was by which you can hear about the fact that gas chambers and crematoria existed?
A. I heard about the gas chambers when I was interned. Before then I did not know that such things existed.
Q. What about crematoria?
A. About crematoria, I heard in the autumn of 1944 because somebody was telling me something about them - I do not know in what connection. Neither did I know where they were and what they looked like.
Q. When you heard that, did you not have misgivings about the purpose of the crematoria?
A. No. I did not have any misgivings because every city has a crematorium and since the concentration camps had grown to the size of large cities I did not think that they served any other purposes except theose usually served by a normal crematoria; that is, people who had died a natural death in a concentration camp would be cremated.
Q. To repeat the question, did you see any order or did you give any orders that crematoria or gas chambers should be established?
A. No, no such cases have ever been known to me.
Q. Now, to turn to Kammler's special staff, what do you know about it?
A. I heard for the first time of Kammler special staff in the spring of 1944 when I returned from my sick leave. I heard about that from a number of colleagues in my office who in my absence had been ordered to join Kammler's special staff.
Q. Did you know who was on that staff?
A. The actual composition of that staff I could only deduce from what my colleagues told me. Mainly, they were members of the Luftwaffe, the army, some branch of the SS, and a large number of civilian engineers, and architects whom Kammler had conscripted for that purpose.
Q. Do you Know who financed the constructions of that special staff?
A. I am not able to give you any precise information, but I think it is pretty certain that Speer's ministry did that.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the planning and execution of these constructions?
A. No.
Q I also mean by that, did the accounts of the construction reach your Office, C-VI?
A No, they did not reach my office.
Q Where did they go then?
A I don't know.
Q Did you hear anything about Nordhausen and Dora?
A Nordhausen is a name which I heard in this trial for the first time. The term, Dora, I came across, I believe, in 1945, or it might have been the end of 1944. What I thought at the time was that it was a labor camp connected with the production of V-2's where civilian workers were used. That it was a camp for inmates was unknown to me.
Q Did you know that in these armaments constructions a large number of inmates were being used?
A No, I did not know that, nor did I think it likely, because the colleagues in my office told me once that in his field they were employing a large number of miners.
Q Did you ever make an inspection trip with Kammler?
A No.
Q How often did you report to Kammler directly? How often did you have a discussion with him?
A Between 1942 and 1945 I saw Kammler 8 or 10 times at the most.
Q What did you talk about?
A Our discussions concerned complaints from the auditing sector when I had come across irregularities committed by members of the WaffenSS.
Q Were these irregularities taken up?
A What happened after that was entirely up to Kammler and all I was concerned with was that the financial side was taken care of.
Q What was the purpose of your auditing office, really?
A To prevent embezzlements and other administrative deficiencies.
Q When the experts met at Kammler's office were you regularly in attendance?
A When I was present in the office I went there. I always received a special order to go.
Q How often did these conferences take place?
A Every week, every fortnight, sometimes every third or fourth week.
Q What did you do yourself? Did you make a report or take an active part?
A I cannot remember that I said one word at any of these conferences.
Q How long did these conferences last?
A Usually a quarter of an hour. If they lasted half an hour, then there must have been a special reason for it, perhaps because the Office Chief had a birthday.
Q Were secret matters reported there, matters which could not be discussed in public, which one would not want to put in writing?
A I don't recall any such occurrence.
Q Did you frequently receive secret matters in your office?
A My secret files consisted of about twenty pages at the most which were orders of a general nature issued by the OKH under a secret classification, but they were purely files.
Q What was the purpose of these expert meetings?
A Kammler did not want to lose contact altogether with his people.
Q Have you ever inspected a concentration camp and I want you to make a distinction between the garrison of a concentration camp, that is to say, the commandant's office and the actual protective custody camp?
AAt the beginning of my examination I stated that in 1936-37 I visited the Dachau concentration camp on several occasions. What I recall is that in 1940 I went to the Buchenwald garrison. I went to the troop barracks of the Anti-Aircraft Auxiliary Regiment, which was billeted in the district of that garrison. The Commandant's office and the actual protective custody camp I did not enter on that occasion. On one occasion, as I have said before, I went to Auschwitz, the garrison there, to estimate the cost of a new bakery shop.
On that occasion again I did not enter the actual concentration camp.
Q What was your impression after you had seen these concentration camps?
A I have described my peace time impressions and during the war I could not form any particular impression, because I did not enter the actual protective custody camp.
Q Were you also in Auschwitz?
A Yes, I said so.
Q When you were in Auschwitz did you receive any knowledge about the extermination of the Jews?
A No.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: When was he in Auschwitz?
WITNESS: I said in my affidavit in 1943, but I believe I made a mistake there. As I can recall it now, it was in the Spring of 1944, but I am not quite sure of the precise date.
Q What did you know of the Action Reinhardt?
A I heard of the Action Reinhardt here in this court.
Q Did you know what the Osti was?
A No, the term was completely alien to me.
Q Did you have any knowledge of the fact that medical experiments were carried out in concentration camps on human beings?
A No.
Q When did you hear about that for the first time?
A Here, in this trial.
Q Did you ever take part at the meeting of the commandants? By that I mean the actual meetings, when the commandants of the concentration camps met?
A No, I did not take part in any such meeting.
Q In Volume XIV there is Document 1915, Exhibit 396, and you are mentioned in the distribution list.
A I do not recall that I had anything to do with the factory, nor can I imagine what I would have had to do with it. Why my name is mentioned on the distribution list is more than I can say. Whether perhaps the possibility exists that I should have been connected with it, I am unable to say after five years.
Q Did you have any connection with Office Group W?
A No.
Q Did you have any connection with Office Group D at the time when your office was in Oranienburg?
A No, I believe that I entered their office building only two or three times when I had to see the doctor. That was my only contact with Office Group D.
Q Why was your Office Group C transferred to Oranienburg?
A My office was not tied to Berlin, because I did not have anything to do with Office Group C itself and in Oranienburg there were ample accommodations available. The transfer was carried out during my absence. When I returned in January 1944 from my sick leave the office had already been transferred to Oranienburg.
Q Why was it transferred?
A The building had received another direct hit.
Q Did you hear anything of Himmler's speech at Cracow?
A Counsel, I forgot to mention before that on one or two occasions I visited the commandant's office in Oranienburg.
Q When was that?
A That was between 1944 and 1945.
Q Why did you go there? Did you have anything official to do there?
A No, I had nothing official to do there, but in the District Commandant's Office there was a barber whom I used to see quite often.
Q You were asked whether you heard anything about Himmler's speech at Cracow.
A No I heard about that for the first time here in Nuernberg.
Q Did you hear anything about Himmler's speech at Posen?
A The same applies here. I only heard about that here in Nuernberg.
Q Was the plan on the part of the Reich Government to exterminate the Jews known to you?
A No. No, I had no knowledge of it.
Q What do you know about the Pogrom of November 1938?
A On that day I was in Graz in order to inspect the Building Inspectorate, the Building Agency for the barracks. When I went there in the morning I saw what damage had been done.
Q What did you say about that?
A I was highly indignant because I myself at that time had the greatest difficulties in obtaining sufficient glass for the barracks and through that action thousands of square meters of glass were destroyed and it certainly was not good advertising for the German people abroad.
Q What was your attitude toward the Jewish program altogether?
A I did not think much about that problem, as in the building business no Jewish competition existed.
Q Were you familiar with the party program of the NSDAP concerning its attitude?
A What particular time are you speaking about now?
Q When you entered the party administration.
A Whether I knew everything about it I am unable to tell you now. The political aspect did not interest me too much.
Q Did you read any books about the Jewish problem, for instance, did you see the "Stuermer"?
A Well, you came across the "Stuermer" sometimes on a trip, for instance, but its level was so low that for a normal human being, it was hardly the literature which he wanted to read normally.
Q What newspapers did you read?
A I just read the ordinary daily papers.
Q Did you read the special paper of the SS?
A On some occasions, yes.
Q Did you read any books, such as Hitler's Book, "Mein Kampf"?
A I started reading the book in 1940, but I did not finish it. I was interested in sports and not so much in literature.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 27 June 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al., defendents, sitting at Nurnberg Germany, on 27 June 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Robert M. Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
DR. von STEIN: May I continue, Your Honor?
BY DR. STEIN:
Q. Witness, a few more questions to you. What do you know about the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto?
A. About the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto I learned from the documents. Before that I only knew from the papers, about the uprising which had occurred and which was beaten down by the military forces.
Q. In your testimony yesterday you told us about your tasks in Office C-6. You told us that your Departments C-1 and C-2 were dissolved in the course of years, and in the end only C-3, the Auditing Department, remained. When you gave such a description one might conceive the idea that your office was only a very insignificant one. On the other hand, there was a terrific shortage of personnel during the late phases of the war. I should therefore, like to ask you why your office had not been dissolved?
A. As far as the main Offices C-6-1 and C-6-2 construction maintenance and plant economy were concerned I had suggested to Dr. Kammler in the middle of 1945 to dissolve these offices because they were no longer important, particularly with reference to the new regulations of the allocation of building material, and because of the open budget.
This suggestion was refused by Kammler, and he pointed out that he had certain plans for the future. He wanted at all costs to have the two offices occupied and to keep them in operation, even if only one man would be working there, or at least if it only existed on paper. As far as C-6-3 is concerned, the Preliminary Auditing Department, I wish to state that office was continued by request of the Reich Auditing Court. All building projects from 1934 up to 1942 had not yet been audited. That office could just as easily have been dissolved, and the auditing of the bills could have been postponed until after the war.
Q. Let us assume that your office does not exist at all, and it was dissolved, would that have meant that the whole administrative machinery of the WVHA would have been disturbed and what would have been the effect elsewhere?
A. Had C-6 been dissolved that would have made no difference to the administration of Office Group-C. In other words, construction would have still been continued is the office had not existed. Yes, that is right.
Q. In that connection it was connected with the open budget?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Now about your membership in the SS. You told us that in 1931--in 1932 you became a full time member. Yesterday you said that since that time you did not serve with the SS anymore. My question id, as time went on from 1932 onwards, did you have any point of contact with the General-SS?
A. No I did not have any contact with the General-SS.
Q. Did any meetings take place and did you take part in them?
A. No, no such meetings took place.
Q. Why were you promoted from Standartenfuehrer?
A. My last promotion took place in 1938, and therefore, in 1942 it was my turn to be promoted again.
Q. Had you done anything outstanding, and were you made a Standartenfuehrer for that reason?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. If you had been transferred to a different unit, because as you told us you had volunteered in 1940, and in 1942 you were to be transferred to the troops, because you did not wish to join the WVHA, would your rank have entitled you to work in your position?
A. Well, the possibility would have existed that I would have served below my actual rank; such cases occurred in isolated instances.
Q. The witness Frank stated in his testimony that your transfer was not carried out at the time because you did not have sufficient knowledge to carry out that function with the troops. Did you apart from your knowledge as an architect have any other qualification which would have been used within the position of a Standartenfuehrer; perhaps of a military nature, or of any other type?
A . No, I had no such qualifications, excerpt that I knew all about construction matters.
Q. When were you taken prisoner?
A. I was captured on the 4th of May, 1945.
Q. Where were you at the time?
A. In the hospital of Bayrisch-zell. On the 28th of April, 1945, I went to the hospital, because my old. ailment had come back. I was captured in the hospital by the American Army.
Q. What happened to the files in your office?
A. In accordance with orders, as early as the beginning of March, 1945, I evacuated my files to Southern Germany by railway and those files and all the luggage of my office and the luggage of my colleagues never reached their destination. They fell victim to an air raid.
DR VON STEIN: Mr. President, I have no further questions to ask this witness.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, you said you had no contact with the SS. I think you said, "real contact." Well, you retained your membership, did you not?
A. I was speaking about the General SS, the formation of the SS. I was working in the Administrative Office of the SS and I had no contact with the formation of the General-SS after 1942.
Q. Well, after 194-2, were you not a member of the SS? I don't mean of the Allgemeine SS, but of the Waffen-SS.
A. If your Honor please, on the 1st of April, 1936, I was transferred to the Waffen SS officially. From 1932 to 1936 I was a member of the Allgemeine SS but I no longer had any contact with the actual troop service of the Allgemeine SS. I was merely working in the Administrative Office.
Q. Well, you remained a member of the Waffen-SS from 1936 or did you not--1932--1936 is right.
A. Yes, from 1936 on.
Q. And you worked for the WVHA, which was an SS organization from 1936 to 1945?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you had a rank in the SS?
A. Yes, indeed. I did.
Q. What did you mean when you said you had no real contact with them?
A. I meant by that with the actual formation of the General or Allgemeine SS, with the actual units. In 1931 I joined Unit 21 of the General SS, the Allgemeine SS, and had the more or less semi-military service with them, but in 1942 I was taken over on a full time basis into the staff of the Administrative Office so that I no longer served with the Troop Unit. That's is what I wanted to say.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, I understood you to say yesterday that you knew nothing about gas chambers and crematoria in the concentration camps.
A. What I said yesterday was that I did not know anything about gas chambers and that in 1944 for the first time I heard in a conversation that a number of concentration camps had crematoria.
Q. You stated that that did not seem strange to you, because, since concentration camps were as large as cities, there was no reason why there shouldn't be a crematorium, such as one sees in large cities. How did a subject like that come up in the conversation, unless there was more detail about the nature of the crematorium?
A. Details were never mentioned. It was generally known in a more intimate circle, but no details were actually discussed, because cities had their crematoria where people who had died a natural death were cremated and that was the same in my opinion in a concentration camp.
Q. All right. You know today that there were death chambers and you know now how the crematories were operated. You know that today, don't you?
A. Yes, I saw that in the documents here.
Q. And you know also that there was a definite machinery needed to operate these gas chambers and the crematoria?
A. Your Honor, I don't know anything about the operation of a crematoria.
Q. But you know there had to be certain machines; there had to be personnel; there had to be equipment; there had to be poison gas; there had to be these chemicals; you know that now, don't you?
A. Yes, I saw that here in the documents.
Q. And you know now that was part of the equipment of the concentration camps which had these gas chambers and crematoria?
A. Yes, that knowledge I posses today, Your Honor.
Q. Yes, and you know also that that all came under plant management. Don't you know that today?
A. Your Honor, it was not part of the camp. It wasn't equipment in that sense. The camp management did not take care of that sort of thing.
Q. In your affidavit on page 61, paragraph 20 says, "The Section Plant Management, supervised the technical equipment on the various SS properties." Wouldn't the operation of a gas chamber come within the purview of the phrase, "technical equipment?"
A. But it is not part of the equipment in that sense. "Equipment in that sense is probable utilities, water, current, heating, but in a crematorium as far as I know, parts of the equipment was under the supervision of the Medical Services and that had to be regulated as part of the Medical Services.