I have discussed the matter with Mr. Robbins and Mr. Robbins agreed that in the presence of a member of his staff an affidavit was obtained. I also took another affidavit from the witness of the prosecution, his name is Eichele, the third witness was Grosch who came here two days ago. I request that after the end of the examination of the defendant Eirenschmalz this witness could be called here before this Tribunal so that I can carry out a cross-examination with him. The further request is that I can call a female witness, a collaborator of the witness Eirenschmalz. I want to place special emphasis on this witness because this witness is Czech and she was conscripted into the WVHA and no charges exist against her in the political sense.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the female witness in custody?
DR. STEIN: At present she is living in Austria. She has some small children there and she would not be able to come here to Nurnberg. However, I believe that she has submitted an affidavit to me signed by an Austrian Notary Public and I would like to submit this affidavit in evidence to the Tribunal. I had three other witnesses who were collaborators of the defendant. However, apparently these witnesses cannot be located any more. I therefore request that after the examination of the defendant Eirenschmalz Grosch be called here for cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: He is in custody here? He is available as a witness?
DR. STEIN: Yes, your Honors for two days.
THE PRESIDENT: Then, of course, you may call him at the proper time.
DR. STEIN: Very well, your Honor. I would also like to state that I have requested just like my colleague before, that Karl -- who I might also call as a witness, that I could have a discussion with Karl whom I might also like to call as a witness. I have just heard that the prosecution immediately after the examination of the defend Court No. II, Case No. 4.ant Eirenschmalz to submit new evidence against this witness.
I can not give my point of view with regard to the subsequent presentation of evidence. I therefore request that I have the right to call this witness for cross-examination before the Tribunal. This is not the permanent outline of my request. It all depends upon what the prosecution is going to bring forth.
THE PRESIDENT: You may call any witness or produce any documents or affidavits that you like. We want all of the facts that we can get and you don't need to have any special permission to produce witnesses or documents. Bring anyone before the Tribunal who can tell us anything about the facts.
DR. KLEIN: Very well, your Honor. Thank you. I now want to call the defendant Eirenschmalz to the witness-stand.
FRANZ EIRENSCHMALZ, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
You will please raise your right hand and repeat after me.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. STEIN:
Q Witness, when were you born and please describe as briefly as you can your curriculum vitae?
A I was born on 20 October, 1901, a son of Joseph Eirenschmalz an architect at Munich. I am married and have three children. My father came from very modest circumstances and he became the owner of an independent construction company. At the time of the ecomomic depression before the first World War my father had to get out of his business and from that time on the family always suffered from economic Court No. II, Case No. 4.pressure.
During the World War I began to see together with my two sisters what hunger meant. After 1919 I went to the high-school in Munich and then I worked at various construction places as an auxilliary and skilled laborer in order to prepare myself for my profession as a construction engineer. From 1921 on I attended the higher technical State Institution for Construction in Munich and then in 1925 I passed my final examination there. After I had concluded my studies in the year 1925 I was received as a construction manager of a construction enterprise that was located at Bad Reichenhall. I remained there until 1930. There was a short interruption and during that period of time I worked at Donauwoerth. In 1930 the situation with regard to labor deteriorated to such an extent that not even apprentices were paid for work any more and it was due to that situation that fate led me into the ranks of the SS.
Q In what year and in what month did you enter the SS at that time?
A In July 1931 I joined the General SS.
Q Before that time did you belong to any political party?
A No, before that I never belonged to any political party.
Q Before the year 1931 did you ever carry out any political activities?
A No, I never had anything to do with politics before. However, from 1922 to 1923 I was a member of the Oberland-League at Munich. This was a league with Nationalist tendencies. In 1923, after the 9th November 1923 the Oberland-League was dissolved.
Q During the year 1931 you joined the SS. What position did you hold in the SS at that time? Did you only perform duties in the SS or how often did you do that? Did you receive any political training?
A. When I entered the SS in 1931 we would have a roll call in the evening that lasted about one or two hours about twice a week when we had to carry out small hikes and that sort. But we did hot receive any political training.
Q. When did you receive a full-time position in the SS?
A. I received a full-time position in the SS early in October 1932.
Q. What brought about the fact that you received a full-time position there?
A. The administrative office of the SS at the time was looking for collaborators. I received the job on the basis of my profession and I had to design insignia and things of that sort.
Q. How much pay did you receive at that time?
A. At that time I received the royal salary of 80 Marks per month.
Q. At that time was there already an agency in existence which dealt with construction matters?
A. No, an agency of that nature did not exist at that time in the administrative office which dealt with construction.
Q. During your full-time activities did you continue to do duties with the SS?
A. No, since I entered the Administrative Office of the SS I was excused from duty in the General SS.
Q. This full-time activity in which you were a draftsman, how long did you continue that?
A. Until the Spring of 1933. I believe it was in June.
Q. When you entered the SS at that time did you have to make a statement of obligation?
A . No, we did not have to do that at the time. We only had to make a request for membership and that settled the whole matter.
Q. When were you sworn in?
A. On 9 November 1934.
Q. What obligation did you think you were getting into when you entered the SS at the time?
A. I did not consider that entry in the SS different at the time then if I had entered any other club or league. I assumed that I could again leave the organization if I no longer agreed with its aims and purposes.
Q. In the meantime you had also joined the NSDAP. Did every SS man also have to become a member of the Party?
A. My entry into the NSDAP took place on 21 October 1931. The time of the entry into the Party had to be carried out at the same time as the entry in to the SS.
Q. Did you carry out any functions in the Party?
A. No, I did not carry out any activities in the Party.
Q. What happened to you in the year 1933? You say it was in the Spring you again left your full-time position in the SS. What did you do afterwards?
A. At the time I was in a civilian office in order to carry on a large construction enterprise there which was begun at the time.
Q. Who took over your position in the SS when you left the position just mentioned above?
A. This position was not occupied.
Q. Why did you leave your civilian position again?
A. In 1934, in June or July of that year the construction project was completed. Then again I returned to the Administrative Office of the SS. After all, I had just been detached to the other organization for that purpose.
Q. What activities in the SS did you carry out in detail?
A. When I returned to the Administrative Office of the SS I had to supervise the repair of buildings for accommodations of political organizations which had been established at that time.
Q. Was that in the year 1934?
A. Yes, that was in 1934.
Q. At the time did concentration camps already exist and which ones existed?
A. Yes, there was Camp Dachau, the Camp Esterwegen and as far as I can recall the Camp Sachsenhausen--no not Sachsenhausen, Sachsenburg and Lichtenburg.
Q. At the time, that is to say, 1934, did you have anything to do with construction matters in the concentration camps which already existed at the time? That is to say, enlargement of buildings or repairs or anything else of that sort?
A. No, I had nothing to do with it.
Q. Who established these camps.
A. As far as I cam recall these camps were established by the Provincial Agencies in regions of which these camps were located. As far as I know the man in charge was Gruppenfuehrer Eicke, and he was responsible for them.
Q. What department existed at that time in the Administrative Office of the SS and with particular regard to the construction system?
A. What year are you referring to?
Q. I am referring to the year 1934 or in early 1935. Please describe to the Tribunal the construction in the organization as it started from the beginning and from 1934 onward.
A. In 1934 when I returned to the Administrative Office of the SS, I was alone; as far as I can recall from the Fall of 1934 on an independent agency was established in Dachau which dealt with the construction projects in this big area. In this respect I would like to point out that the Camp Dachau had nothing to do with the actual concentration camp. The Camp Dachau included an area of approximately 2 to 2½ square kilometers in size. The actual concentration camp at Dachau amounted to perhaps one-tenth or onetwelfth of the entire area of the camp.
The remaining area of the camp at Dachau was a troop garrison and one has to differentiate between the actual concentration camp and the so-called SS Training Center. The same situation also applies during time of war in various other concentration camp garrisons. In this case also the actual concentration camp is sometimes confused with the troop garrison in its vicinity. I wanted to point out this factor at the very beginning of my statements.
Q. We have an order dated 1 October 1935. That is Document NO-5574, Exhibit 522. It's in Document Book No. 22. That's Exhibit 522. Have you found it?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. This document refers to a now organization of the Administrative Office of the SS. What do you know about this department V-IV which is mentioned on page 2? That is, the construction system?
A. Well, that happened over 12 years ago. Of course, I cannot remember all of the details any more.
Q. Who was in charge of this department?
A. I was in charge of that department. However, this cannot actually be called a department because for the most part I worked by myself and I was only able to have collaborators on some occasions.
Q. Within the SS administration were there any other construction agencies besides your Department V-IV/C ?
A. I believe that I have already pointed out that at Dachau a construction agency had been established in 1934.
Q. How were the ownership conditions at that time in Dachau?
A. The entrie area of the Camp Dachau during the first World War was a big ammunition factory which, however, at the time of the Peace Treaty of Versailles was torn down or the machinery was removed. The buildings around the camp remained in a very bad condition. The entire area was owned by the Bavarian Property Administration.
That's a state agency. In 1933 or 1934 when the SS took over that area the entire camp was purchased by the NSDAP, that is to say, it became the property of the party.
The financing of the construction measures which were taken at that time was done by the NSDAP was it, or did ay other State agency or the SS handle it? Where did the funds come from?
A. The financing of the concentration camps was done by the State of Bavaria. The financing of the remaining buildings for the army sector was carried out by the NSDAP.
Q. Were the construction agencies also in existence for the concentration camps?
A. I don't think that they existed at that time. However, I can't recall the matter any more. You mean 1934?
Q. No, I mean somewhat later. What year did you hear for the first time that a construction agency had been established for the concentration camps?
As far as I can recall the concentration camp Dachau was enlarged between 1936 and '37 or some changes were made there, but at that time a construction management was established for the headquarters of the concentration camp Dachau for the enlargement of buildings.
Q. Was this Construction Management subordinated to your supervision?
A. No, the Construction Management was not subject to my supervision. As the Commissioner for the NSDAP I only had to exercise supervision with regard to the establishment of buildings in conformity with the building laws. However, since I had to construct buildings for the Verfuegungstruppe (special task Group), this was a lot of work. I was unable to pay too much attention to this task as it should perhaps have been necessary.
Q. Can you still remember who was charged with the Labor Allocation of the inmates at that time?
A. The Labor Allocation of inmates was the exclusive task of the concentration camp commander.
Q. Did you have anything to do with Labor Allocation?
A. No.
Q. At the time did you inspect the concentration camp?
A. Yes, I entered the concentration camp several times during that time. Perhaps on two or three or four occasions.
Q. At the time what conditions were you able to observe within the concentration camp?
A. Well, the conditions there were quite normal. If I am to describe the newly established plant, then I can say that big barracks were established; the Economical Buildings were strongly built, and everything was actually excellent there. The Economical Building had a large kitchen with an adjoining room. It had a big laundry which was equipped with machines, and it had the appropriate laundry room; it had large bathing facilities; There was a small work shop for the electrician, and other repair shops.
Then there was a chamber where the goods were stored. Then we had a big dispensary with the most modern facilities, equipped with a small room where treatments were given, or operations were performed. Then we had a Dental Station with the most modern equipment. We furthermore had a Post Exchange where all sorts of usefull items were sold to the inmates, and at the time everything could be purchased there at the cheapest prices. There was a so-called orientation barracks also; it was used for religious service, sometimes, and then, we had the other living barracks where the bedrooms and the living rooms were separated. Then the living room was equipped with tables, chairs, closets, and every prisoner had his table unit consisting of knife, fork and spoon. Then when needed he had his own closet where he could put his clothes. There were several double-decker bunks according to military style --- they were on top of each other. However, they were equipped with a mattress, and also military bedsheets and blankets. There was a big washroom in the middle of each barrack with toilet facilities to a sufficient extent. However, I estimate that each inmate occupied a space of two and one-half to three Square meters at the time, and the same ratio was used in the labor service, in part, as well as in the German Army. Furthermore, in the camp we also had some small gardens, and there the inmates could grow their own requirements, and have vegetables and so on. Then, of course, we had the camp guards; that included the entire camp, and then we had a headquarters and a political department. That was located outside of the actual protective custody camp.
Q. In the training camp at Dachau which was located outside the actual concentration camp, were other buildings established there at the time?
A. Yes, in the camp in Dachau new constructions were constantly carried out from 1934 until the end of the war.
Q. What construction was carried out there?
A. As I have already described as a result of the destruction, occurred in 1918, the buildings were in a very bad state. They could not be used. In the course of time they had to be repaired gradually. This was enabled by the funds which could be sent for these purposes, and they had to be put in good condition. Of course, the use of these barracks now had completely changed compared with their former use in 1918.
Q. In these buildings outside of the actual camp where the inmates were lodged ----- were inmates also used to work there at the time?
A. Sofar as I can recall inmates were only used within the actual concentration camp area at the time. It is possible that certain working detachments and working parties were used outside. However, for the most part big buildings at Dachau were constructed by civilian contractors, and by civilian workers.
Q. You have now explained the details to us about the camp at Dachau. However; besides, apart from this camp at Dachau, there were some other concentration camps you have already mentioned, Esterwegen, Sachsenburg and Lichtenburg. Did you have to take care of the construction there and did you have to exercise any supervision as included in the case of Dachau?
A. No, I did not have anything to do with that. All of that was the task of Eicke.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the concentration camp constructions in Buchenwald, Mauthausen and Flossenburg in 1938?
A. No. I did not have the least thing to do with this construction work. These buildings were constructed exclusively by the construction agency within the Inspectorate of the concentration camps The construction tasks only lasted for a very short period of time, because Gruppenfuehrer Eicke at that time followed his own ideas, and he did not tolerate any interference by the other administrations.
Q. Did the Inspectorate have its own construction department?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was in charge of this Construction Department?
A. I can recall that the Camps of Estarwegen, Sachsenburg and Lichtenburg, were dissolved in 1936. It is possible that one or the other camp dissolved earlier or later. For example, the Camp Esterwegen, so far as I can recall, was sold to the Reich Labor Service, Reichsarbeitsdienst, in 1936, and from the money which was received from this sale Gruppenfuehrer Eicke established the Camp of Oranienburg and also Sachsenhausen. From that time on Sachsenhausen had its own central construction agency of the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps. The whole thing was dealt with by this agency, so far as I can recall, which was under Untersturmfuehrer Kulpe, who had come from the Prussian Construction Administration, and had been transferred to Eicke's Department.
Q. Was this Untersturmfuehrer Kulpe subordinated to you?
A. No, Kulpe was never subordinated to me.
Q. Did your department, V-IV-C, also carry out the construction of buildings for the General SS at the time, before 1939?
A. So far as I can recall individual buildings were constructed for the General-SS. However, only individual cases can be concerned with here, because the NSDAP, or the Reich Treasurer at the time held his money back pretty tightly, and he did not like to spend many marks.
Q. What kind of construction was this?
A. I believe that was at Berghaus Sudelfeld. However, that was not subject to my supervision and direction.
Q. Were these accommodations for the SS?
A. Yes, in the camp at Dachau various barracks were also constructed for the SS and for the Ministry of Finance.
Q. I am now referring to the buildings of the General -SS. What kind of construction was that?
A. I cannot think of any additional ones at the moment.
Q. How was it with the concentration camp buildings, did you have to furnish personnel for the construction of any concentration camps?
A. Yes, in 1938 I had to furnish from my personnel, I believe, one or two men, and in Eicke's Office these men were in the re-organized construction service with the Death Head Units, and in the concentration camp, because the Reich Ministry of Finance which had financed the whole matter up to that time was demanding this new organization -this re-organization. Eicke had many desires with regard to the construction, and he did not care in any way about the financial regulations of the Reich. Gruppenfuehrer Pohl received a letter from the Reich Finance Ministry, from the Commissioner of Construction Service, that was Geheimrat Reichle, to include the construction agency in his office, and I believe that it was tried with these two people. I believe it was Construction Inspector Eckstein, and unless I am mistaken, it was Sturmbannfuehrer Karl who had been mentioned before. However, this matter did not go on very well for a long time, and I believe it only continued for two or three months. Then things did not work out any more, and then Eicke finally got rid of the people who had been sent to him in the Administrative Office. Construction Inspector Eickstein then left the service with the SS altogether, because he was a civilian employee, and then Eicke appointed for his construction department a certain Hauptstrumbannfuehrer Riedl for his construction department. Riedl then was in charge of the entire construction of the concentration camps and the barracks for the Death Head Units up to 1940.
Q. As long as the people were detached, did they leave your office for good, that is to say, did you have any authority to give instructions to these people?
A. No, I did not have the right to issue instructions to them anymore.
Q. That is to say, they had left your office entirely, and you did not have any further influence on them?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. To whom were they then subordinated?
A. I don't know. After all, I was on for only a short period of time, and after twelve years I can no longer recall exactly to whom they were subordinated.
Q. When did you enter the Waffen SS?
A. I was taken over by the SS Special Task group on 1 April 1936.
Q. Did you sign a contract there?
A. Yes, I had a contract, and as a result of this contract I was obliged to perform service for the SS Special Task Group until I had reached the 45th year of my life, and I was to work in the Technical Service there.
Q. Was it possible for you to leave the organization by virtue of this contract?
A. Unless I became sick and incapable of working there, or unless I was given a dishonorable discharge, I was unable to leave the organization until I had reached my 45th year.
Q. What salary did you receive at the time?
A. Before I was transferred to the SS Special Task group I was paid according to the wage scale for the General SS. After I was transferred to the "VT" -- the Special Task group--I was paid according to the wage scale of the army. That is to say, in my particular grade.
Q. Did the amount of your pay correspond to the money which you could have received if you had carried out your work in the civilian sector?
A. After 1933 the construction trade prospered to such an extent that everybody there was able to earn a good living. My pay in the Special Task Group was always lower than the wage scale which prevailed in the civilian construction economy.
Q. Was that the reason why you tried to leave the SS in 1938?
A. No, that actually was not the reason. The reason I requested permission to leave the organization resulted from the fact that I did not like the civil service system there anymore. I had worked in the private economy and when working for the government it was very difficult to assimilate oneself to military ideas. Furthermore, construction people want to follow their own ideas. They don't want to be dependent on military regulations. At the time I did not consider my activity with the Administrative Office of the SS as being on duty with the SS, but I thought I would be able to practice my profession there. That was the reason why I wanted to return to the civilian economy. Furthermore, the agency at that time was to be transferred from Munich to Berlin since I was resident of Munich, I did not like the idea of moving to Berlin. I did not Strive to become a big officer. Furthermore, as a result of the increase of the SS after 1933, the SS had been some what improved. Some water had been spread on the ideas of the SS, add it no longer agreed with my opinion.
Q. What agency was it that refused your request?
A. The request had already been disapproved by the SS.
Q. When were you transferred to Berlin?
A. On 22 October 1938.
Q. How many collaborators did you have in 1936 and thereafter?
A. In 1936 I had approximately two to four collaborators. In 1939 I had six to seven people, and they consisted of technical and business personnel.
That is to say, they were in my immediate vicinity.
Q. What task did you have to deal with in administering the office?
A. My actual task in the Administrative Office was to supervise the construction that was carried out after 1935. In this case we dealt with big barracks and with the other installations that belonged to these barracks; that is to say, all the installations that are needed for a military unit. In this work I had to determine just how much space was going to be needed for the buildings and for the troops, and after I had determined these things I turned them over to the Construction Management, which was a state agency of the Reich Ministry of Finance. This Construction Agency of the Reich Ministry of Finance then carried out the actual construction of these buildings, and then they would make the sketches, and they would also account for the expenses of these buildings.
When Austria was incorporated into Germany in 1938, three big troop garrisons were established in Austria. They were the barracks at Vienna, Graz and Klagenfurt. For these troop installations, I had to supervise the construction management, and here these managements were SS Construction Managements. That is to say, these construction managements continued to be subordinated to the competent agencies of the Reich Finance Ministry.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, in the interests of getting a fair picture on the record of this witness' recollection of the facts, I feel that I should object to the extensive use that the witness is making of notes and to the nature of the notes. Apparently they are in fact much more than merely notes to refresh his recollection. From what I can see in court, the witness has his testimony typed out. I believe this was done by counsel. He has questions and answers typed out. I think there can be no objection to the witness using his own notes to refresh his recollection, but just to have a canned dialogue of speeches between counsel and witness, I don't think gives us a fair picture.
THE PRESIDENT: If he had learned the answers by heart and didn't use a memorandum, there would be no objection to that.
MR. ROBBINS: No, I think not.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the limitation on the use of a memorandum? Is there any?
MR. ROBBINS: I think there certainly must be a limit somewhere and a witness shouldn't just be permitted to read his testimony which has been prepared in advance.
THE PRESIDENT: Why not? I mean, what rule of evidence prohibits it?
MR. ROBBINS: It doesn't give the Tribunal a fair picture of the witness' recollection of the facts and this testimony may come from other sources.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the fact that it's written down seems to be the point your're raising. If the witness hadn't put it on paper it would be all right, would it?
MR. ROBBINS: I think that would be an indication of the witness' recollection, his ability to recall the facts.
THE PRESIDENT: But, if he recalls the facts and then puts them on paper, that's wrong?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
MR. ROBBINS: I should think so, yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You would have a right to show this fact as affecting the witness' credibility, the fact that he is reading from a prepared statement and giving his answers. Other than that the only test is whether the answers are relevant and material and the fact that they are written down doesn't seem to affect the relevancy or the materiality. Your objection is overruled.
MR. ROBBINS: Perhaps, Your Honor, I might make the request or suggestion that the witness just submit the notes in the form of an affidavit and thereby time could be saved.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the defendant can offer his testimony in the way that suits him and this seems to be an acceptable and proper way.
DR. STEIN: May I continue?
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed FRANZ EIRENSCHMALZ - Continued BY DR. STEIN:
Q Witness, we stopped before the recess when you described how the construction work was done which you carried out in the Administrative Office of the SS. My question to you now is who handled the financial side of this?
A The financial side for the construction of the SS Special Task Unit was handled exclusively by the Reich Ministry of Finance. That Ministry in the peace time budget put at our disposal the necessary money and transmitted the funds by request to the Reich building agencies concerned of the Reich Finance Administration. Those agencies paid all bills and in that manner they administered the whole construction project. The Administration Office of the SS had nothing to do with that side -- with the financial side -- with the exception of the total sums in the budget. But I would like to modify this because for the three building agencies in Austria, the Vienna, the Graz, and Klagenfurt I was in a position to issue orders. The con Court No. II, Case No. 4.tracts concerned, such as the building contracts, had to be approved by the finance authorities concerned.
For the construction of concentration camps and the buildings of Death Head Guard Units in peace time another procedure was followed. Here the administration with the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was given the sum of money from the Reich Ministry direct and paid from there the bills which would come in.
Q Would you also have to audit the bills of the construction project?
A Not yet at that time. Those bills were submitted to me for auditing only when in 1942 I had set up the Auditing Office in the WVHA. I shall talk more about that later on.
Q Why was it that these bills reached you so late? Was the reason because of the nature of the construction business?
A I believe, Counsel, that I should tell you about this when we talk about auditing -- not in this connection here.
Q When was the Administrative Office of the SS incorporated into the Main Office Budget and Construction, and what changes resulted therefrom for your sphere of tasks?
A The changes of the Administrative Office of the SS into the Main Office, Budget and Construction, was done on the 1st of April, 1939.
Q Now, between the 1st of October, 1935, and the 1st of April 1939, was there any changes in the organization and was your sphere of tasks connected with same and concerned thereby?
A I cannot recall these things too well, because it happened 12 years ago, but I believe in the period between 1935 and 1939 there was one more organizational reconversion within the Administrative Office of the SS, the Verwaltungsamt. If I'm not mistaken a change in the building matters was connected with it. I believe that at that time the then independent building administrations in Dachau -- at one time there were two, three and later on four of them within the Court No. II, Case No. 4.administrative office -- were incorporated into the organization.
They had their own tasks, but I believe at that time there were no particular changes as far as their competence was concerned. These construction managements were under Pohl immediately for most of the time.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Doctor, let me interrupt and ask the witness one question, please. When the SS administration was incorporated into the Main Office, Budget and Building, on the 1st of April, 1939, what branch did you go into in the office, the Main Office, Budget and Building.
WITNESS: I was with the Construction Office as an independent main office. This Office Construction itself had not anybody in charge at the time at the top level.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was the designation of your office in the Office, Budget and Building?
WITNESS: I cannot recall the designation, I am afraid.
JUDGE PHILLIPS. It was just called Construction Office?
WITNESS: No, it was within Office II, Building. It was the main department.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Office II?
WITNESS: For the Special Task Units.