Q. What construction was carried out there?
A. As I have already described as a result of the destruction, occurred in 1918, the buildings were in a very bad state. They could not be used. In the course of time they had to be repaired gradually. This was enabled by the funds which could be sent for these purposes, and they had to be put in good condition. Of course, the use of these barracks now had completely changed compared with their former use in 1918.
Q. In these buildings outside of the actual camp where the inmates were lodged ----- were inmates also used to work there at the time?
A. Sofar as I can recall inmates were only used within the actual concentration camp area at the time. It is possible that certain working detachments and working parties were used outside. However, for the most part big buildings at Dachau were constructed by civilian contractors, and by civilian workers.
Q. You have now explained the details to us about the camp at Dachau. However; besides, apart from this camp at Dachau, there were some other concentration camps you have already mentioned, Esterwegen, Sachsenburg and Lichtenburg. Did you have to take care of the construction there and did you have to exercise any supervision as included in the case of Dachau?
A. No, I did not have anything to do with that. All of that was the task of Eicke.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the concentration camp constructions in Buchenwald, Mauthausen and Flossenburg in 1938?
A. No. I did not have the least thing to do with this construction work. These buildings were constructed exclusively by the construction agency within the Inspectorate of the concentration camps The construction tasks only lasted for a very short period of time, because Gruppenfuehrer Eicke at that time followed his own ideas, and he did not tolerate any interference by the other administrations.
Q. Did the Inspectorate have its own construction department?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was in charge of this Construction Department?
A. I can recall that the Camps of Estarwegen, Sachsenburg and Lichtenburg, were dissolved in 1936. It is possible that one or the other camp dissolved earlier or later. For example, the Camp Esterwegen, so far as I can recall, was sold to the Reich Labor Service, Reichsarbeitsdienst, in 1936, and from the money which was received from this sale Gruppenfuehrer Eicke established the Camp of Oranienburg and also Sachsenhausen. From that time on Sachsenhausen had its own central construction agency of the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps. The whole thing was dealt with by this agency, so far as I can recall, which was under Untersturmfuehrer Kulpe, who had come from the Prussian Construction Administration, and had been transferred to Eicke's Department.
Q. Was this Untersturmfuehrer Kulpe subordinated to you?
A. No, Kulpe was never subordinated to me.
Q. Did your department, V-IV-C, also carry out the construction of buildings for the General SS at the time, before 1939?
A. So far as I can recall individual buildings were constructed for the General-SS. However, only individual cases can be concerned with here, because the NSDAP, or the Reich Treasurer at the time held his money back pretty tightly, and he did not like to spend many marks.
Q. What kind of construction was this?
A. I believe that was at Berghaus Sudelfeld. However, that was not subject to my supervision and direction.
Q. Were these accommodations for the SS?
A. Yes, in the camp at Dachau various barracks were also constructed for the SS and for the Ministry of Finance.
Q. I am now referring to the buildings of the General -SS. What kind of construction was that?
A. I cannot think of any additional ones at the moment.
Q. How was it with the concentration camp buildings, did you have to furnish personnel for the construction of any concentration camps?
A. Yes, in 1938 I had to furnish from my personnel, I believe, one or two men, and in Eicke's Office these men were in the re-organized construction service with the Death Head Units, and in the concentration camp, because the Reich Ministry of Finance which had financed the whole matter up to that time was demanding this new organization -this re-organization. Eicke had many desires with regard to the construction, and he did not care in any way about the financial regulations of the Reich. Gruppenfuehrer Pohl received a letter from the Reich Finance Ministry, from the Commissioner of Construction Service, that was Geheimrat Reichle, to include the construction agency in his office, and I believe that it was tried with these two people. I believe it was Construction Inspector Eckstein, and unless I am mistaken, it was Sturmbannfuehrer Karl who had been mentioned before. However, this matter did not go on very well for a long time, and I believe it only continued for two or three months. Then things did not work out any more, and then Eicke finally got rid of the people who had been sent to him in the Administrative Office. Construction Inspector Eickstein then left the service with the SS altogether, because he was a civilian employee, and then Eicke appointed for his construction department a certain Hauptstrumbannfuehrer Riedl for his construction department. Riedl then was in charge of the entire construction of the concentration camps and the barracks for the Death Head Units up to 1940.
Q. As long as the people were detached, did they leave your office for good, that is to say, did you have any authority to give instructions to these people?
A. No, I did not have the right to issue instructions to them anymore.
Q. That is to say, they had left your office entirely, and you did not have any further influence on them?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. To whom were they then subordinated?
A. I don't know. After all, I was on for only a short period of time, and after twelve years I can no longer recall exactly to whom they were subordinated.
Q. When did you enter the Waffen SS?
A. I was taken over by the SS Special Task group on 1 April 1936.
Q. Did you sign a contract there?
A. Yes, I had a contract, and as a result of this contract I was obliged to perform service for the SS Special Task Group until I had reached the 45th year of my life, and I was to work in the Technical Service there.
Q. Was it possible for you to leave the organization by virtue of this contract?
A. Unless I became sick and incapable of working there, or unless I was given a dishonorable discharge, I was unable to leave the organization until I had reached my 45th year.
Q. What salary did you receive at the time?
A. Before I was transferred to the SS Special Task group I was paid according to the wage scale for the General SS. After I was transferred to the "VT" -- the Special Task group--I was paid according to the wage scale of the army. That is to say, in my particular grade.
Q. Did the amount of your pay correspond to the money which you could have received if you had carried out your work in the civilian sector?
A. After 1933 the construction trade prospered to such an extent that everybody there was able to earn a good living. My pay in the Special Task Group was always lower than the wage scale which prevailed in the civilian construction economy.
Q. Was that the reason why you tried to leave the SS in 1938?
A. No, that actually was not the reason. The reason I requested permission to leave the organization resulted from the fact that I did not like the civil service system there anymore. I had worked in the private economy and when working for the government it was very difficult to assimilate oneself to military ideas. Furthermore, construction people want to follow their own ideas. They don't want to be dependent on military regulations. At the time I did not consider my activity with the Administrative Office of the SS as being on duty with the SS, but I thought I would be able to practice my profession there. That was the reason why I wanted to return to the civilian economy. Furthermore, the agency at that time was to be transferred from Munich to Berlin since I was resident of Munich, I did not like the idea of moving to Berlin. I did not Strive to become a big officer. Furthermore, as a result of the increase of the SS after 1933, the SS had been some what improved. Some water had been spread on the ideas of the SS, add it no longer agreed with my opinion.
Q. What agency was it that refused your request?
A. The request had already been disapproved by the SS.
Q. When were you transferred to Berlin?
A. On 22 October 1938.
Q. How many collaborators did you have in 1936 and thereafter?
A. In 1936 I had approximately two to four collaborators. In 1939 I had six to seven people, and they consisted of technical and business personnel.
That is to say, they were in my immediate vicinity.
Q. What task did you have to deal with in administering the office?
A. My actual task in the Administrative Office was to supervise the construction that was carried out after 1935. In this case we dealt with big barracks and with the other installations that belonged to these barracks; that is to say, all the installations that are needed for a military unit. In this work I had to determine just how much space was going to be needed for the buildings and for the troops, and after I had determined these things I turned them over to the Construction Management, which was a state agency of the Reich Ministry of Finance. This Construction Agency of the Reich Ministry of Finance then carried out the actual construction of these buildings, and then they would make the sketches, and they would also account for the expenses of these buildings.
When Austria was incorporated into Germany in 1938, three big troop garrisons were established in Austria. They were the barracks at Vienna, Graz and Klagenfurt. For these troop installations, I had to supervise the construction management, and here these managements were SS Construction Managements. That is to say, these construction managements continued to be subordinated to the competent agencies of the Reich Finance Ministry.
THE PRESIDENT: We'll take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, in the interests of getting a fair picture on the record of this witness' recollection of the facts, I feel that I should object to the extensive use that the witness is making of notes and to the nature of the notes. Apparently they are in fact much more than merely notes to refresh his recollection. From what I can see in court, the witness has his testimony typed out. I believe this was done by counsel. He has questions and answers typed out. I think there can be no objection to the witness using his own notes to refresh his recollection, but just to have a canned dialogue of speeches between counsel and witness, I don't think gives us a fair picture.
THE PRESIDENT: If he had learned the answers by heart and didn't use a memorandum, there would be no objection to that.
MR. ROBBINS: No, I think not.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the limitation on the use of a memorandum? Is there any?
MR. ROBBINS: I think there certainly must be a limit somewhere and a witness shouldn't just be permitted to read his testimony which has been prepared in advance.
THE PRESIDENT: Why not? I mean, what rule of evidence prohibits it?
MR. ROBBINS: It doesn't give the Tribunal a fair picture of the witness' recollection of the facts and this testimony may come from other sources.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the fact that it's written down seems to be the point your're raising. If the witness hadn't put it on paper it would be all right, would it?
MR. ROBBINS: I think that would be an indication of the witness' recollection, his ability to recall the facts.
THE PRESIDENT: But, if he recalls the facts and then puts them on paper, that's wrong?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
MR. ROBBINS: I should think so, yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You would have a right to show this fact as affecting the witness' credibility, the fact that he is reading from a prepared statement and giving his answers. Other than that the only test is whether the answers are relevant and material and the fact that they are written down doesn't seem to affect the relevancy or the materiality. Your objection is overruled.
MR. ROBBINS: Perhaps, Your Honor, I might make the request or suggestion that the witness just submit the notes in the form of an affidavit and thereby time could be saved.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the defendant can offer his testimony in the way that suits him and this seems to be an acceptable and proper way.
DR. STEIN: May I continue?
DIRECT EXAMINATION - Resumed FRANZ EIRENSCHMALZ - Continued BY DR. STEIN:
Q Witness, we stopped before the recess when you described how the construction work was done which you carried out in the Administrative Office of the SS. My question to you now is who handled the financial side of this?
A The financial side for the construction of the SS Special Task Unit was handled exclusively by the Reich Ministry of Finance. That Ministry in the peace time budget put at our disposal the necessary money and transmitted the funds by request to the Reich building agencies concerned of the Reich Finance Administration. Those agencies paid all bills and in that manner they administered the whole construction project. The Administration Office of the SS had nothing to do with that side -- with the financial side -- with the exception of the total sums in the budget. But I would like to modify this because for the three building agencies in Austria, the Vienna, the Graz, and Klagenfurt I was in a position to issue orders. The con Court No. II, Case No. 4.tracts concerned, such as the building contracts, had to be approved by the finance authorities concerned.
For the construction of concentration camps and the buildings of Death Head Guard Units in peace time another procedure was followed. Here the administration with the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was given the sum of money from the Reich Ministry direct and paid from there the bills which would come in.
Q Would you also have to audit the bills of the construction project?
A Not yet at that time. Those bills were submitted to me for auditing only when in 1942 I had set up the Auditing Office in the WVHA. I shall talk more about that later on.
Q Why was it that these bills reached you so late? Was the reason because of the nature of the construction business?
A I believe, Counsel, that I should tell you about this when we talk about auditing -- not in this connection here.
Q When was the Administrative Office of the SS incorporated into the Main Office Budget and Construction, and what changes resulted therefrom for your sphere of tasks?
A The changes of the Administrative Office of the SS into the Main Office, Budget and Construction, was done on the 1st of April, 1939.
Q Now, between the 1st of October, 1935, and the 1st of April 1939, was there any changes in the organization and was your sphere of tasks connected with same and concerned thereby?
A I cannot recall these things too well, because it happened 12 years ago, but I believe in the period between 1935 and 1939 there was one more organizational reconversion within the Administrative Office of the SS, the Verwaltungsamt. If I'm not mistaken a change in the building matters was connected with it. I believe that at that time the then independent building administrations in Dachau -- at one time there were two, three and later on four of them within the Court No. II, Case No. 4.administrative office -- were incorporated into the organization.
They had their own tasks, but I believe at that time there were no particular changes as far as their competence was concerned. These construction managements were under Pohl immediately for most of the time.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Doctor, let me interrupt and ask the witness one question, please. When the SS administration was incorporated into the Main Office, Budget and Building, on the 1st of April, 1939, what branch did you go into in the office, the Main Office, Budget and Building.
WITNESS: I was with the Construction Office as an independent main office. This Office Construction itself had not anybody in charge at the time at the top level.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was the designation of your office in the Office, Budget and Building?
WITNESS: I cannot recall the designation, I am afraid.
JUDGE PHILLIPS. It was just called Construction Office?
WITNESS: No, it was within Office II, Building. It was the main department.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Office II?
WITNESS: For the Special Task Units.
Q. I should like to ask you now, witness - you just told us of Office II, Construction - did that office have a chief at the time?
A. No, Office II, Construction, did not have an office chief.
Q. Who was the first office chief?
A. The first office chief for the Office Construction arrived at the beginning of 1940 to the Main Office Budget and Construction. This was Sturmbannfuehrer Heidelberg.
Q. At the same time did the construction tasks for the concentration camps come under that unit and also for the Death Head units?
A. In this trial mention has been made of the fact that Gruppenfuehrer Eicke was the Inspector of concentration camps and that he was called up at the beginning of 1940 and went to the front with the Death Head units. From that moment onwards, Eicke handed over his agency in Oranienburg, and as far as I know in the spring of 1940 it was incorporated into the Office Construction. The previous man in charge of the construction department with the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps, Hauptsturmfuehrer Riedl, came together with his department into Office II, Construction, and as a main department he continued with the tasks and duties.
Q. In this connection I want to put to you, witness, an affidavit by witness Wolfgang Grosch, who will be cross-examined here tomorrow. This is in Document Book XXI, Document NO-2322, Exhibit 513. I should like you to give us your comments on this affidavit, particularly with regard to the statements about your work until 1940.
In his affidavit Grosch makes statements about when he met you first. He described your position at the time and compared it with the later position held by Kammler. He also stated that the administration of the construction funds for the Special Task units, Death Head units, and the General SS were the duties of new administration. He also makes statements about your transfer to Berlin. Please comment about these things.
A. In his affidavit Grosch says that by the middle of 1939 he heard of me for the first time.
Q. Let me interrupt you here, witness. Grosch has also given another affidavit, which is in Volume III of the docunent books. This is Document NO-2154, Exhibit 52. In this affidavit Grosch states that in 1929 he was working under you. I should again like you to give us your comments on both affidavits of Grosch.
A. As I can remember it, I heard of Grosch for the first time in 1940. Before that I did not know him at all. Of course, it is possible that he knew about me without my knowing about him. My name made me well known all over the place, and it is the sort of name which you remember. Grosch's statements made in his affidavit of 5 March 1947 are incorrect. I have already explained how construction funds for the Special Task units and Death Head units were spent. The money for the construction for the General SS was not made free by me, but the money came from the Reich treasury. That money was spent in accordance with orders by the men in charge of the construction concerned with the Main Treasury SS in Munich or else direct from the Reich Treasurer.
I was not in a position to give permission for construction money for the Death Head units. I explained before how that money was being spent. Grosch also says that in the Administrative Office SS I had been in charge of the whole of the construction. That statement is incorrect. I was the expert for the field of the SS Special Task units but not for concentration camps and TV and only in isolated cases for matters connected with the General SS.
Then he states that I had remained in that position until 1940 when I went to Berlin to the Main Department Budget and Construction, but, as I said before, my transfer to Berlin happened as early as October 1938. In the other docunent of 20 February 1947 Grosch alleges that in February 1939 he had been ordered to go to Munich and there I had been his superior officer. I wish to state that Grosch was not under me for one hour. As far as his other statements are concerned, I wish to say something about then later on.
Q. At the end of 1939 or the beginning of 1940 you joined the administrative agency in the Administrative Office of the Waffen SS. What department did you take over there?
A. At that period of the end of 1939 or the beginning of 1940 I asked the Main Office chief to be transferred to the then administrative office of the Waffen SS. That later on became the Administrative Office of the Waffen SS. I was granted that transfer and I took over the Main Department V-5.
Q. Did you bring your own personnel for your new field of tasks, and what was the strength of your staff?
A. I did not bring any personnel with me. In 1940-1941 I was on my own, and towards the end of 1941 I was given two or three technical colleagues.
Q. When did you take over the construction tasks of the concentration camps and the Death Head units from the Main Office Budget and Construction?
A. I have described that before.
Q. What were the tasks you had in Department V-5?
A. There I was in charge of maintenance work for all construction projects of the Waffen SS, that is to say, the actual SS troops. I wish to point out that it did not comprise the concentration camp side.
Q. What did you understand by maintenance work?
A. By that I mean all small repair work at estates and buildings, which turn up regularly and repeatedly. Moreover, that sort of repair work can be carried out without any expert knowledge by the technical agencies concerned. It includes all repair work of windows, doors, roofs, streets, and things like that. For that type of work a sum of money was annually decided on the ministerial level and this was put at the disposal of the administrative agency. The agency then carried out all repair work in the course of that year under its own competence.
Q. Please describe how the administrative side was handled and how it was done in peacetime as well as in wartime.
A. In the peacetime budget new construction funds were separated from the current maintenance material and expenses. The reason for this is that new constructions usually took a longer time or they took in some cases three, four, or five years. Funds for these new constructions could always be transferred therefore. That is to say, funds which had not been used up during one year could be transferred to the budget of next year. The actual money was really tied to the budget and once the year was up it would be lost unless the money had been spent. The funds were transmitted by the building management concerned and were paid by the treasury concerned with the building agency. Money for maintenance was paid by the garrison administration concerned, and they were accounted for and audited in the auditing field for general administrative expenses.
Q. Were there annual reports about the requirements of the troops throughout the year, and what could you see from those reports?
A. The procedure described by me just now concerned peacetime conditions. In wartime there was an open budget, and therefore the administrative agencies had at their disposal all necessary money for the maintenance also. Individual building agencies sometimes did keep up a peacetime routine in wartime in order to have a certain amount of guarantee about the way they spent their money. Other administrative officials, however, who worked relatively independently, did this without putting in their reports first, and carried out all measures as they thought fit and on their own responsibility.
Q. Then on the 1st of February 1942 you joined the WVHA?
A. Yes, on the 1st of February 1942, when the administration in the SS Main Operational Office was dissolved, I was transferred to the WVHA together with my colleagues.
Q. How many colleagues did you have?
A. Three or four perhaps.
Q. Did that transfer agree with you?
A. No, it did not. The then chief of Office II, Construction, Kammler, had approached me as early as November or December of 1941, asking me to join his office voluntarily.
I turned down that proposition because I had no intention of working under Kammler. I had come across him before. Thereupon I talked to my chief, at the time Gruppenfuehrer Frank, and asked him to prevent at all costs my transfer to the WVHA. I wanted to be transferred to the troop administration. Gruppenfuehrer Frank himself said on the witness stand why that request was not granted.
Q Then according to the organizational chart you were in the WVHA Kammler's deputy. Tell us how that appointment came about?
A I have no idea what the reason was. Kammler did not talk to me about that; and I only saw on the 1st of January 1943 that I had become his deputy, when the organizational chart, which is a document in this trial, reached me for the first time.
Q Did Kammler give you any orders about the way you were to deputize for him or any other instructions as to what you had to do as his deputy?
A No, Kammler gave me no orders at all.
Q Who had been Kammler's previous deputy?
A That had been Sturmbannfuehrer Busching, who has been mentioned before.
Q Did you deputize in any sense of the word for him? By that I mean deputize for him in even a very small way, by signing letters, for instance, leave orders, or things of that sort?
A No, I cannot recall having done that at all. I did not sign any mail. I did not sign any leave orders. Leave orders were signed by the office chiefs themselves.
Q At that time the WVHA received a direct hit in an air-raid. When was that and what was the special effect of that direct hit on the work done by Office Group C?
A The bomb damage has been described in detail by witness Kiefer. I can only confirm what he told us. My colleagues worked for about six or eight weeks on salvage work, and our official activities were completely nil.
Q Then in May 1943 you went to the hospital. How long were you in the hospital?
A From May 1943 to January 1944 I was in the hospitals of Dachau, Bayrisch/Zell, and Gastein.
Q When in May 1943 you were on sick leave, who was then appointed Kammler's deputy?
A I do not know that anyone was officially appointed; but I do assume that nothing was done until the time when Kiefer was appointed a deputy. That deputizing of Kiefer's I knew nothing about. It was only here in the documents that I saw anything about it.
Q When you returned from your sick leave, did you then deputize for Kammler at all, or were you told that your period of deputizing was over, or was the deputizing not mentioned at all?
A During my absence my office had been evacuated to Oranienburg. When in January 1944 I returned, Prof. Schleif had become Kammler's deputy. That was the end of my deputizing.
Q Officially you never were told that the period of your deputizing was over? I mean by that you received no official information as "From such and such a date you are no longer Kammler's deputy"? Were you ever written such a letter?
A No, nothing of the sort happened.
Q Now, let us talk about the work which you actually did with the WVHA. In the WVHA you were in charge of Office C VI. Please tell us about your office. Explain the sub-departments to us. Look first at the organizational chart on the wall which shows it.
A On that chart the activity of my office is stated incorrectly. It only speaks of maintenance work up to 1943. My office consisted of three main offices, Main Office I, Building Materials; Main Department II, and Main Department III, Auditing and Price Control. The main task was auditing and price control. Compared to these activities, the other two departments were completely insignificant.
THE TRIBUNAL (Judge Phillips): I didn't get what Number II was. Number I was Building Materials; III was Auditing and Price Control. I didn't get what II was.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: II is Auditing; III is Price Control.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What was II?
A Department II was Planned Economy, looking after water, gas, current, and heating.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Do I understand that auditing and price control were one office?
A Yes, quite; but there was a change later on.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I misunderstood you.
BY DR. STEIN:
Q In March of 1942 the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was transferred to the WVHA. What was the effect which that transfer had on your field of tasks, Main Department C VI/1, Maintenance of Buildings?
A That incorporation of the concentration camps and or of Office Group D into the WVHA entailed an extension of my tasks for that field. What happened was that I released funds for certain purposes. That was as far as my activity went. These funds just as in the sector of the Waffen SS were allocated to concentration camps once a year after the local construction management had ascertained the funds needed for the current maintenance, and after this had been up, what was actually transmitted was one sum to the administration concerned if any such requests ever reached us at all. I said before that as we had an open budget in wartime, only the more timid administrative officials would come in to obtain permission, whereas all the others acted on their own initiative.
Q. Who carried out the repair work?
A. The repair work was carried out exclusively by the adminis-tration, and so on. It was in some cases dependent on how big the work of the local building agencies was.
Q. Who supplied the material to the local agencies?
A. I'll have to make a distinction here as far as the maintenance buildings where troops were housed were concerned. There the Administration Agencies used mainly civilian firms. Those firms supplied both the labor and the material, and sent their bills in the normal way. In the concentration camps the administration officials would make purchase of this necessary material from private firms or depots, or they got it in some other way, and then with their own repair detachments they carried out the work.
Q. Were you in a position to send such material to concentration camps?
A. You mean myself?
Q. Ye, or your office, or your agency?
A. My office had no allocation of material, that is to any extent. All I had was a small contingent for machines, iron, which could be used only for certain purposes.
Q. Where did the raw material allocations come from?
A. In 1942 the supply of raw material in the building market became more and more acute. The Speer Ministry set up offices of its own to regulate construction problems in the Reich, and they were stationed with every Army District. All construction measures had to be approved by that Regional Commissioner, and it was his agency which supplied the quota for the material.
Q. Who requested the contingent of raw material with the Commissioner?
A. From the new agency Speer new construction material was requested in the normal way. For the maintenance work the building ad ministrative Offices had to apply to the official concerned because for the purpose of maintenance the Speer Agencies did not commit any collective contingent.
That feature did not apply not only in the Waffen-SS, but also in the Army and the Luftwaffe, and the other problem departments. In 1942 all repair work, above, two-thousand marks, had to be approved first in this way.
THE PRESIDENT: We are trying to find out whether--wel, we still know nothing about who supplied the material for maintenance work and repair work. The most we got out was "from the agency concerned." I don't know what it means. In fact, none of us know what it means. Answer that again. Who supplied the material, that is, lumber, hardware, paint and so on, for maintenance work?
A. Yes, Mr. President, in order to obtain the material you had to have first of all contingent vouchers by the Regional Commissioner; that voucher would enable you to purchase the necessary materiel from private firms contingent, for instance, and then they would pay the bills from their own funds.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, let's get to the material and not pay the bills for a moment. Where did you get the contingent vouchers?
A. The administration was given these vouchers by the Regional Commissioner who was in charge of building matters.
BY DR. STEIN:
Q. And he requested these vouchers, the administration itself requested the vouchers. Now did you obtain any knowledge, or request, or did you have to have special permission?
A. No, I did not hear anything about that side of the procedure.
THE PRESIDENT: I am still trying to find out who issued the vouchers for the material for maintenance. Now you want to put a roof on a shed and you got to have some lumber and some nails, where did you go to get the voucher which you could present to the lumber yard for that material?