You were already a member of the Allgemeine-SS?
A. I received this order as a lieutenant in the reserve from the army personnel office.
Q. Did your membership in the Allgemeine-SS have anything to do with your obtaining admission to the Waffen-SS? Or with your transfer?
A. A membership in any organization certainly was not known to the army personnel office because no lists were kept by that in the army personnel office. I would say to the contrary: the army demanded that every person who was conscripted, that that person's membership in the General-SS should rest for that time.
Q. You don't claim, do you, that you were forced to join the General--SS, or conscripted or drafted into the Allgemeine SS?
A. I voluntarily entered the General SS.
Q. And you voluntarily entered the Nazi Party?
A. I entered the Party in 1937 because Himmler had ordered me to do so.
Q. Himmler gave you an order to join the Nazi Party?
A. He did not give me that order personally--but Himmler ordered that all members of the SS who were not yet members of the Party should join now. That was in the year 1937.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: We will do it in the morning. I just wanted to know if you were finished. Tomorrow morning at nine thirty.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until )930 tomorrow morning.
( The Tribunal afjourned unti 26 June 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal II, Case 4, in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 26 June 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal announced that on Saturday the session would be from nine until one. We find that if we run until one o'clock the military personnel attached to the Tribunal will have no place to get their lunch; their mess closes at one o'clock. So we will change that, and run until twelve thirty so the Army can be fed.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I have only a few additional questions I should like to put to the defendant Kiefer, if I may.
MAX KIEFER - Resumed
CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, do you know the present whereabouts of Wirtz, who was one-time Chief of Office C-3?
A. I can't understand the name.
Q. W-i-r-t-z.
A. No, I don't know his whereabouts since 1943.
Q. Do you know whether he is living or dead?
A. I don't know. Since 1943 I haven't had any contact with him.
Q. What about the one-time Chief of Office C-4, Blaschek? Do you know whether he is living or dead?
A. No, I don't know that either.
Q. Do you know about Lenzer who was chief of C-5?
A. Oh, Lenzer, you mean. Well, I heard that he died at the seige of Posen. He is supposed to have died in combat.
Q. When and to where did you evacuate your office -- towards the end of the war?
A. On the 13th of April, 1945.
Q. And to where?
A. To Munich --to Munich Freimann; that is a suburb of Munich.
Q. And who accompanied you?
A. At the time I was accompanied by approximately twelve or thirteen women who were evacuated from Berlin because of the approaching Russians, and they had received the permission to go to the southern Germany. The, Untersturmguehrer Hafer accompanied me, also two or three men from the Staff Company of the WVHA.
Q. From the Staff Company? What was that?
A. That was a group in the house which mainly served in air-raid procautions.
Q. Were there any members of the WVHA in your area, where you evacuated?
A. No.
Q. Did you take any part in, or have you any knowledge of, the distruction of the files and papers of your office?
A. Yes. Early in April I received the order to burn the files and to destory them which were not necessary any more in order to continue our work, and the rest of them had to be turned over to the staff, and they had to be packed.
Q. And do you know what happened to those files?
A. I was told that they were to be transferred to the Southern Germany. However, I don't know what happened to them.
Q. And you don't know that they were destroyed?
A. I don't know that, no.
Q. Do you know that there was an order to destroy them?
A. I received this order from Prof. Dr. Schleif.
Q. I want to ask you one or two questions about your Main Section concerning arms and ammunition. I didn't understand from your testimony what kind of plans and designs were drawn in this Main Section. Will you explain that, please?
A. Only a basic sketch was made for the explanation of the target range facilities for the Wehrmacht. I had to work out the security measures for the establishment of such facilities in accordance with army regulations. And then we also made an additional plan in connection with this. Other plans about actual ammuntion depots and other facilities were not worked out in my office during the war.
Q. You say you worked out plans for rifle ranges, or shooting ranges? Is that it?
A. No, we made a basic plan in the way of an explanation, and it is also contained in the army regulations.
Q. For what?
A. There is a certain regulation that rifle ranges have to be established in a certain way, and then these regulations I explained by additional sketches; earth-mounds so that the bullets would be caught, and the area had to be sucure so that the bullets wouldn't pass by certain points.
Q. Were any such rifle ranges constructed?
A. I don't know anything about that, and I don't believe that new rifle ranges were constructed during the war.
Q. You just drew plans? None were constructed?
A. We make these explanatory sketches with regard to the regulations about the establishment of such rifle ranges.
Q. And this was just post-war planning, is that right?
A. These were the regulations for these facilities. They could have been used; this regulation could have applied during the war if a rifle range would have had to be constructed in some place or other.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You believe that no such rifle ranges were constructed, is that correct?
A Yes, I didn't know anything about it.
Q And are we to understand that you never drew any plans for munitions depots, arms depot, or anything concerning arms and ammunition other than these rifle ranges?
A No.
Q That is the only thing that this main division ever did, was draw some plans for rifle ranges?
A Yes, the regulations for the rifle ranges and the security regulations for the storage of ammunition and explosives. However, no sketches had to be made for that.
Q And do I understand your testimony to be that at no time during the war did you ever hear that any one was killed in a concentration camp? Is that your testimony?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q And you never heard at any time that anyone was ever mistreated in a concentration camp?
A No, I didn't hear that either.
Q Will you tell us what your conception of the duties of Office C-VI were?
A I only know the tasks of C-VI from the organizational distribution chart. I have never been in C-VI and I have never entered the offices of that particular Amt. Therefore, I have never been able to gain any insight into the details of it.
Q You have no idea of what Eirenschmalz's job was?
A I had an idea according to the tasks on the organizational chart and of course since that list had been made out I had a general idea about that. However, I did not know just how C-VI was working during the war, because this work varied considerably from the work which had been done during peace time. On the one hand we had the open budget and on the other hand a certain budget was fixed. There is a Court No. II, Case No. 4.little difference in that.
Q He was with you in these Saturday morning conferences. Didn't you get an idea from those conferences? Didn't he ever say anything?
A No, I had the impression that Eirenschmalz hardly made appearance at these conferences. I can't recall that Eirenschmalz made a statement of any kind during these conferences or if he was asked a question there.
Q You don't remember his ever saying anything?
A No, I can't recall that at all.
Q Witness, he has told this Tribunal that he attended those conferences regularly. Are you stating that you didn't see him there regularly?
AAt the conferences of the Office Chiefs in which I participated, I did see Eirenschmalz on various occasions and frequently. Whether I saw him at every conference I can't say any more.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no more questions.
DR. MAYER: Your Honor, I only want to ask a very few questions in redirect. All I want to do is to clarify a few small matters which have not been clarified quite well.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MAYER:
Q If I understood you correctly yesterday you were asked by the prosecution, Witness, whether in the time from September 1943 to the middle of 1944 you did not carry out a deputization of matters for Dr. Kammler, in particular, during the time when Kammler dealt with the action: "Warsaw Ghetto". I now want to ask you the following question: When did you take over your duties again after your sickness in September 1943, which sickness is actually shown by Document 1244?
A I became sick in the middle of August 1943 and I resumed my activities in the last days of the month of September and the first Court No. II, Case No. 4.days in the month of October.
Q Had Kammler already returned from his trip when you again resumed your work?
AAfter I had resumed my service, Dr. Kammler returned a few days later, in the course of the same month, in October. Professor Dr. Schleif came to Amtsgruppe C as the permanent deputy of Kammler. Up to that time, Schleif had been in Greece.
Q In the time from the end of September or early in October 1943, up to the arrival of Dr. Kammler, did you have to carry out any deputizing matters for him?
A No, I have already stated that I at the time could not deputize for Kammler and in my direct examination I have already stated that after I resumed my duties I immediately asked what business I should take care of, since the order existed that I was to deputize for Kammler. On this occasion the Adjutant told me that I was not to take care of anything at all, because the matter had already been settled otherwise.
Q Now to another point. The prosecution could not understand it in the cross examination that Dr. Kammler did not have any conferences with you about his armament projects, that is the task which he carried out in his special staff, although he had appointed you as an expert. I now want to ask you the following question: Could you explain to the Tribunal briefly this apparent contrast?
A Yes, that is very easy to explain. Actually there is no contrast at all. I myself was an architect and Dr. Kammler with regard to the armament tasks -- that is, including the V-Weapon production -- was more or less of a military expert -- and didn't know anything at all about these things.
Q If I understood it correctly, the prosecution asked you in the cross-examination whether you entered the WVHA voluntarily and whether you turned to Dr. Kammler personally for this purpose. I therefore want to ask you whether you were transferred to the Waffen Court No. II, Case No. 4.SS because you had turned to Dr. Kammler in person or did you yourself try to be transferred to the Waffen-SS in any other way?
A The order for my transfer was sent to me as Reserve Officer of the Army after I had been conscripted by the Personnel Office of the OKH; therefore it was a military order. It came as a complete surprise to me.
Q When did you find out that Dr. Kammler had initiated your transfer?
A Dr. Kammler told me that when I reported to the Main Office, Budget and Construction at the end of September 1941 and on that occasion he said that he had taken this step in order to have me as an expert in his office for the dwelling program.
DR. MAYER: Thank you, I have no further question.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any questions by other defense counsel?
If not, the Marshal may remove this witness from the witness stand.
(The witness was excused.)
DR. MAYER: Your Honor, the Tribunal informed on the 12th of May, 1947, that I could call the Witness Werner Court for cross-examination. The prosecution has submitted an affidavit by him which is contained in Document Book XI, Document 1580, Exhibit 303. I, however, would not like to call this witness, because I shall present a document by him which will make his cross-examination superfluous.
THE PRESIDENT: It isn't necessary for you to call the witness unless you wish to. You can waive the witness.
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor. For the time being I have reached the end of my presentation of evidence. However, I request that I may submit some additional affidavits later on which in part are still just being prepared.
THE PRESIDENT: You will have the opportunity to present any further documentary proof that you wish.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. MAYER: Thank you, Your Honor. I would like to submit the following information to the Tribunal. On the 20th of June, 1947, through the Defense Information Center I made a request to be able to see the Witness Karl, who is in the prison here, -- his first name is Hubert -- and to examine him in order to obtain some information and I gave the reasons for that request. However, up to the present time, I have not received any notification whether the request has been approved or whether the prosecution has objected to this request and, consequently, whether the request was submitted to the Tribunal for its ruling. I therefore would like to ask the prosecution to inform me whether any objections exist on its part against this request. If this should be the case, then I request the Tribunal to approve my request, because the witness in question was Chief of the Construction Inspectorate South, and, therefore, it is quite possible that he has some information about the connection between Amtsgruppe B and the Construction Inspectorates. According to my information, he also worked in the Office B-I for sometime and therefore he should have some information about the tasks of that office and about some connections between Amt B-I and Amt B-II.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE PRESIDENT? What's the name of the witness, please?
DR. MAYER: The name is Karl. His first name is Hubert.
THE PRESIDENT: Hubert Karl.
DR. MAYER: K-a-r-l.
MR. ROBBINS: I think counsel is quite right that the witness Karl is well informed as to the activities of these Amtsgruppen and the prosecution has in its possession an affidavit which Karl gave the prosecution just a few days ago and he is presently engaged in writing additional affidavits which will, I think, very fully explain the activities of the Amtsgruppe B and they will be submitted quite shortly. I intend to submit one during the cross-examination of Eirenschmalz. That's a ten page affidavit which goes into great detail as to the activities and as soon as Karl has completed the other affidavits I would have no objection at all to defense counsel interviewing him and it may very well be that they will want to call Karl to cross-examine him on his affidavit, if that meets with counsels' approval.
DR. MAYER: If I can obtain some information from Karl as soon as possible I certainly would be pleased to do so.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, as soon as the witness is through with the affidavits that he is now preparing you will have an opportunity to interview him upon request. Is that what you want?
DR. MAYER: Yes, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that's possible. That can be arranged very soon, as soon as he is through with the affidavits that he is now preparing.
DR. MAYER: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. For the time being I have reached the end of my presentation of evidence.
DR. STEIN: Stein, for the defendant Eirenschmalz. Your Honor the Tribunal has permitted me to call three witnesses for cross-examination who have previously given an affidavit. One of these witness es Kohle has already been here in prison. However, on the 18th he Court No. II, Case No. 4.had to be returned to Dachau again.
I have discussed the matter with Mr. Robbins and Mr. Robbins agreed that in the presence of a member of his staff an affidavit was obtained. I also took another affidavit from the witness of the prosecution, his name is Eichele, the third witness was Grosch who came here two days ago. I request that after the end of the examination of the defendant Eirenschmalz this witness could be called here before this Tribunal so that I can carry out a cross-examination with him. The further request is that I can call a female witness, a collaborator of the witness Eirenschmalz. I want to place special emphasis on this witness because this witness is Czech and she was conscripted into the WVHA and no charges exist against her in the political sense.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the female witness in custody?
DR. STEIN: At present she is living in Austria. She has some small children there and she would not be able to come here to Nurnberg. However, I believe that she has submitted an affidavit to me signed by an Austrian Notary Public and I would like to submit this affidavit in evidence to the Tribunal. I had three other witnesses who were collaborators of the defendant. However, apparently these witnesses cannot be located any more. I therefore request that after the examination of the defendant Eirenschmalz Grosch be called here for cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: He is in custody here? He is available as a witness?
DR. STEIN: Yes, your Honors for two days.
THE PRESIDENT: Then, of course, you may call him at the proper time.
DR. STEIN: Very well, your Honor. I would also like to state that I have requested just like my colleague before, that Karl -- who I might also call as a witness, that I could have a discussion with Karl whom I might also like to call as a witness. I have just heard that the prosecution immediately after the examination of the defend Court No. II, Case No. 4.ant Eirenschmalz to submit new evidence against this witness.
I can not give my point of view with regard to the subsequent presentation of evidence. I therefore request that I have the right to call this witness for cross-examination before the Tribunal. This is not the permanent outline of my request. It all depends upon what the prosecution is going to bring forth.
THE PRESIDENT: You may call any witness or produce any documents or affidavits that you like. We want all of the facts that we can get and you don't need to have any special permission to produce witnesses or documents. Bring anyone before the Tribunal who can tell us anything about the facts.
DR. KLEIN: Very well, your Honor. Thank you. I now want to call the defendant Eirenschmalz to the witness-stand.
FRANZ EIRENSCHMALZ, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
You will please raise your right hand and repeat after me.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. STEIN:
Q Witness, when were you born and please describe as briefly as you can your curriculum vitae?
A I was born on 20 October, 1901, a son of Joseph Eirenschmalz an architect at Munich. I am married and have three children. My father came from very modest circumstances and he became the owner of an independent construction company. At the time of the ecomomic depression before the first World War my father had to get out of his business and from that time on the family always suffered from economic Court No. II, Case No. 4.pressure.
During the World War I began to see together with my two sisters what hunger meant. After 1919 I went to the high-school in Munich and then I worked at various construction places as an auxilliary and skilled laborer in order to prepare myself for my profession as a construction engineer. From 1921 on I attended the higher technical State Institution for Construction in Munich and then in 1925 I passed my final examination there. After I had concluded my studies in the year 1925 I was received as a construction manager of a construction enterprise that was located at Bad Reichenhall. I remained there until 1930. There was a short interruption and during that period of time I worked at Donauwoerth. In 1930 the situation with regard to labor deteriorated to such an extent that not even apprentices were paid for work any more and it was due to that situation that fate led me into the ranks of the SS.
Q In what year and in what month did you enter the SS at that time?
A In July 1931 I joined the General SS.
Q Before that time did you belong to any political party?
A No, before that I never belonged to any political party.
Q Before the year 1931 did you ever carry out any political activities?
A No, I never had anything to do with politics before. However, from 1922 to 1923 I was a member of the Oberland-League at Munich. This was a league with Nationalist tendencies. In 1923, after the 9th November 1923 the Oberland-League was dissolved.
Q During the year 1931 you joined the SS. What position did you hold in the SS at that time? Did you only perform duties in the SS or how often did you do that? Did you receive any political training?
A. When I entered the SS in 1931 we would have a roll call in the evening that lasted about one or two hours about twice a week when we had to carry out small hikes and that sort. But we did hot receive any political training.
Q. When did you receive a full-time position in the SS?
A. I received a full-time position in the SS early in October 1932.
Q. What brought about the fact that you received a full-time position there?
A. The administrative office of the SS at the time was looking for collaborators. I received the job on the basis of my profession and I had to design insignia and things of that sort.
Q. How much pay did you receive at that time?
A. At that time I received the royal salary of 80 Marks per month.
Q. At that time was there already an agency in existence which dealt with construction matters?
A. No, an agency of that nature did not exist at that time in the administrative office which dealt with construction.
Q. During your full-time activities did you continue to do duties with the SS?
A. No, since I entered the Administrative Office of the SS I was excused from duty in the General SS.
Q. This full-time activity in which you were a draftsman, how long did you continue that?
A. Until the Spring of 1933. I believe it was in June.
Q. When you entered the SS at that time did you have to make a statement of obligation?
A . No, we did not have to do that at the time. We only had to make a request for membership and that settled the whole matter.
Q. When were you sworn in?
A. On 9 November 1934.
Q. What obligation did you think you were getting into when you entered the SS at the time?
A. I did not consider that entry in the SS different at the time then if I had entered any other club or league. I assumed that I could again leave the organization if I no longer agreed with its aims and purposes.
Q. In the meantime you had also joined the NSDAP. Did every SS man also have to become a member of the Party?
A. My entry into the NSDAP took place on 21 October 1931. The time of the entry into the Party had to be carried out at the same time as the entry in to the SS.
Q. Did you carry out any functions in the Party?
A. No, I did not carry out any activities in the Party.
Q. What happened to you in the year 1933? You say it was in the Spring you again left your full-time position in the SS. What did you do afterwards?
A. At the time I was in a civilian office in order to carry on a large construction enterprise there which was begun at the time.
Q. Who took over your position in the SS when you left the position just mentioned above?
A. This position was not occupied.
Q. Why did you leave your civilian position again?
A. In 1934, in June or July of that year the construction project was completed. Then again I returned to the Administrative Office of the SS. After all, I had just been detached to the other organization for that purpose.
Q. What activities in the SS did you carry out in detail?
A. When I returned to the Administrative Office of the SS I had to supervise the repair of buildings for accommodations of political organizations which had been established at that time.
Q. Was that in the year 1934?
A. Yes, that was in 1934.
Q. At the time did concentration camps already exist and which ones existed?
A. Yes, there was Camp Dachau, the Camp Esterwegen and as far as I can recall the Camp Sachsenhausen--no not Sachsenhausen, Sachsenburg and Lichtenburg.
Q. At the time, that is to say, 1934, did you have anything to do with construction matters in the concentration camps which already existed at the time? That is to say, enlargement of buildings or repairs or anything else of that sort?
A. No, I had nothing to do with it.
Q. Who established these camps.
A. As far as I cam recall these camps were established by the Provincial Agencies in regions of which these camps were located. As far as I know the man in charge was Gruppenfuehrer Eicke, and he was responsible for them.
Q. What department existed at that time in the Administrative Office of the SS and with particular regard to the construction system?
A. What year are you referring to?
Q. I am referring to the year 1934 or in early 1935. Please describe to the Tribunal the construction in the organization as it started from the beginning and from 1934 onward.
A. In 1934 when I returned to the Administrative Office of the SS, I was alone; as far as I can recall from the Fall of 1934 on an independent agency was established in Dachau which dealt with the construction projects in this big area. In this respect I would like to point out that the Camp Dachau had nothing to do with the actual concentration camp. The Camp Dachau included an area of approximately 2 to 2½ square kilometers in size. The actual concentration camp at Dachau amounted to perhaps one-tenth or onetwelfth of the entire area of the camp.
The remaining area of the camp at Dachau was a troop garrison and one has to differentiate between the actual concentration camp and the so-called SS Training Center. The same situation also applies during time of war in various other concentration camp garrisons. In this case also the actual concentration camp is sometimes confused with the troop garrison in its vicinity. I wanted to point out this factor at the very beginning of my statements.
Q. We have an order dated 1 October 1935. That is Document NO-5574, Exhibit 522. It's in Document Book No. 22. That's Exhibit 522. Have you found it?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. This document refers to a now organization of the Administrative Office of the SS. What do you know about this department V-IV which is mentioned on page 2? That is, the construction system?
A. Well, that happened over 12 years ago. Of course, I cannot remember all of the details any more.
Q. Who was in charge of this department?
A. I was in charge of that department. However, this cannot actually be called a department because for the most part I worked by myself and I was only able to have collaborators on some occasions.
Q. Within the SS administration were there any other construction agencies besides your Department V-IV/C ?
A. I believe that I have already pointed out that at Dachau a construction agency had been established in 1934.
Q. How were the ownership conditions at that time in Dachau?
A. The entrie area of the Camp Dachau during the first World War was a big ammunition factory which, however, at the time of the Peace Treaty of Versailles was torn down or the machinery was removed. The buildings around the camp remained in a very bad condition. The entire area was owned by the Bavarian Property Administration.
That's a state agency. In 1933 or 1934 when the SS took over that area the entire camp was purchased by the NSDAP, that is to say, it became the property of the party.
The financing of the construction measures which were taken at that time was done by the NSDAP was it, or did ay other State agency or the SS handle it? Where did the funds come from?
A. The financing of the concentration camps was done by the State of Bavaria. The financing of the remaining buildings for the army sector was carried out by the NSDAP.
Q. Were the construction agencies also in existence for the concentration camps?
A. I don't think that they existed at that time. However, I can't recall the matter any more. You mean 1934?
Q. No, I mean somewhat later. What year did you hear for the first time that a construction agency had been established for the concentration camps?
As far as I can recall the concentration camp Dachau was enlarged between 1936 and '37 or some changes were made there, but at that time a construction management was established for the headquarters of the concentration camp Dachau for the enlargement of buildings.
Q. Was this Construction Management subordinated to your supervision?
A. No, the Construction Management was not subject to my supervision. As the Commissioner for the NSDAP I only had to exercise supervision with regard to the establishment of buildings in conformity with the building laws. However, since I had to construct buildings for the Verfuegungstruppe (special task Group), this was a lot of work. I was unable to pay too much attention to this task as it should perhaps have been necessary.
Q. Can you still remember who was charged with the Labor Allocation of the inmates at that time?
A. The Labor Allocation of inmates was the exclusive task of the concentration camp commander.
Q. Did you have anything to do with Labor Allocation?
A. No.
Q. At the time did you inspect the concentration camp?
A. Yes, I entered the concentration camp several times during that time. Perhaps on two or three or four occasions.
Q. At the time what conditions were you able to observe within the concentration camp?
A. Well, the conditions there were quite normal. If I am to describe the newly established plant, then I can say that big barracks were established; the Economical Buildings were strongly built, and everything was actually excellent there. The Economical Building had a large kitchen with an adjoining room. It had a big laundry which was equipped with machines, and it had the appropriate laundry room; it had large bathing facilities; There was a small work shop for the electrician, and other repair shops.
Then there was a chamber where the goods were stored. Then we had a big dispensary with the most modern facilities, equipped with a small room where treatments were given, or operations were performed. Then we had a Dental Station with the most modern equipment. We furthermore had a Post Exchange where all sorts of usefull items were sold to the inmates, and at the time everything could be purchased there at the cheapest prices. There was a so-called orientation barracks also; it was used for religious service, sometimes, and then, we had the other living barracks where the bedrooms and the living rooms were separated. Then the living room was equipped with tables, chairs, closets, and every prisoner had his table unit consisting of knife, fork and spoon. Then when needed he had his own closet where he could put his clothes. There were several double-decker bunks according to military style --- they were on top of each other. However, they were equipped with a mattress, and also military bedsheets and blankets. There was a big washroom in the middle of each barrack with toilet facilities to a sufficient extent. However, I estimate that each inmate occupied a space of two and one-half to three Square meters at the time, and the same ratio was used in the labor service, in part, as well as in the German Army. Furthermore, in the camp we also had some small gardens, and there the inmates could grow their own requirements, and have vegetables and so on. Then, of course, we had the camp guards; that included the entire camp, and then we had a headquarters and a political department. That was located outside of the actual protective custody camp.
Q. In the training camp at Dachau which was located outside the actual concentration camp, were other buildings established there at the time?
A. Yes, in the camp in Dachau new constructions were constantly carried out from 1934 until the end of the war.