I can see from this affidavit , however, that the headquarters of the Construction Brigade was outside Berlin, because Nikolasee was a distance of approximately 20 kilometers from Berlin. Therefore, I would like to state that we knew nothing about the assignment, about the SS Construction Brigade and their duties, at least so far as I am concerned. We did not hear too much about it.
Q. As you yourself and the Office C-II had nothing to do with the construction and with the assignment of inmates , I would like to ask you what your idea at the time about the assignment of inmates was. What was your idea at the time?
A. If I am to tell you that today, it is not very simple for me to reconstruct that because in the course of the last two years, that is during the time of my internment, I got quite a number of new impressions. Generally speaking, it was thus, however: I knew that inmates were used for labor, and I did not see anything unusual about it during the war because everybody in the civilian population and every individual as such was expected to do a lot of work in all the branches of industry and the economy. That referred to every one of them, so long as they could work, including women up to 55 years of age, and most of the time it was done on a conscription basis. That was a compulsory measure, too.
The terms under which these inmates were used as labor, I really did not know, because during my entire activity I did not have any connection with construction sites or labor assignment sites.
I should like to add that, apart from the humanitarian point of view, it would have appeared devoid of sense to me that these laborers, who were badly needed by the Reich to take care of all those war asks, be destroyed, murdered, by starvation and bad treatment. Even today this seems to me to be something absolutely inconsistent. The agreement to have such a thing carried out is absolutely incomprehensible to a normal human being.
That is the reason why, ever since the beginning of this trial, I have asked myself the question repeatedly, what measures should I personally have taken if I was to have come into contact with the labor assignment question because of my official capacity? And then, if I had had knowledge of all those things because of my official position, the question of whether I could have changed those horrible things.
After having examined the question in my mind several times, I would like to add that I personally would not have been able to change any of those things.
I then asked myself the following question again: What would have been the consequences for me if I had noticed that I could not have changed anything? The answer to that, I guess, would be that I would have had to resign.
But, by examining those possibilities, I can see that during the war it would have been absolutely impossible for me to do that, because I was too old to be used at the front line, and my request to resign probably would not have been approved, and I could not just simply walk out and leave my job. I was bound to stay on that job by a military order, and I had to carry it out.
I know that those questions are theoretical ones, for I did not have anything to do with labor assignment in my official position, but in spite of that, I would like to leave it to the decision of this Tribunal if every one of us can possibly be expected to quit both freedom and life, so to say, by doing something which would not have helped anything.
I must admit that frankly today, this seems to me a dilemma which appears insoluble to me.
During my activity, I assumed -- and I had to assume -- that those inmates who were being used for labor assignments were Germans, that they were Germans who had been gathered together in internment camps for political reasons.
It really did not occur to me that any foreigners might be interned there, because the official reports in the press told us that all the foreign labor had come to Germany voluntarily and that they were not interned in either concentration camps or internment camps. One could see them walking around freely out in the street, with the special insignia, which were marks of distinction for them, to see who was from which nation. As far as the arrest of foreign workers is concerned, I really did not hear anything at the time.
Q. Didn't Kammler ever tell you anything about his special tasks when you were together?
A. No. I already said before that I would be with Kammler very seldom, and I really have to say that those conferences, were more or less short because Kammler was always very busy. It was impossible to discuss things with him in detail as far as his special tasks were concerned. These special staffs and other things which were outside of the limits of the WVHA or his construction brigades he never told me anything about.
Q. Can you describe to us Kammler's personality in brief terms?
A. I'll try to be brief. Dr. Kammler has been described here on the witness stand as a man who was of an unusual intelligence, who had a vast technical knowledge. He was very ambitious. I would like to add at the same time that his talent to organize things was as unusual; Kammler in all his dispositions was very far-reaching. What I mean by that is he aimed his guns as far forward as he could. Already in 1943 I had gained the impression from him that unfortunately he lost his limits because at that time he already started taking over tasks which had absolutely nothing to do with his own task as chief of a construction administration, and according to my opinion his position as Chief of Special Construction of the Waffen-SS was nothing but a springboard for him which would enable him to jump higher. Fighter staff, corps staff, the use of "V" weapons and all that, they were coming steps, and according to my opinion I don't believe that would have been the last step if he would have been able to get his plans and ideas through.
Dr. Kammler was very ruthless against himself as far as working was concerned, and he was also just as ruthless against the others.
I would like to quote an example here. It was nothing unusual really, that an expert who worked there for twelve hours, which was our regular working time, would be ordered to go and report to Kammler in the evening, and would have to wait in the anteroom for many hours until he would be admitted into his office, and also that reports like this lasted until dawn. Where the actual conference took only five minutes.
The relationship between Dr. Kammler and his collaborators in Amtsgruppe C was not good. I personally have noticed that there was the tendency to have those who knew their job and were not dependable on money, released at the end of the war. During the war there was no possibility to do so. That was the reason why that bad relationship at that time actually did not show its effects.
Q. Are you through?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. Good. Now, let's turn to something else. Witness, take a look at Document Book No. 4, and take Document No. 1244, which is Exhibit 96, on Page 54 of the English and 67 of the German, and in this document the Chief of Amtsgruppe C for "Charlie" ordered on the 6th of September, 1943, in a circular letter, that you were to deputize him until further orders. However, this document here states too that you were sick at the time, and that therefore a man named Praler was to deputize you actually. I would like to ask you, Witness, when was it that you were sick at the time, and how long were you sick?
A. In August 1943 I suffered of a horrible erysipelas. But I believe the kind of disease is irrelevant here. However, I went to a Berlin X-ray institute in order to get my treatments there.
That disease lasted until the end of September or early in October. I couldn't tell you for sure.
DR. MAYER: I would like to point out that in the English translation of this deputization there is a misunderstanding or at least the translation is wrong here somewhere. The German reads: "AS 33-Sturmbannfuehrer Kiefer is sick at the present moment, SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Praler will take over," that means that Praler will deputize Kammler instead of Kiefer. In the English translation one could understand it to mean that Praler would take over the deputization of Kiefer who was sick. That is not the sense in the German.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the name of the man?
DR. MAYER: The name is Praler, Your Honor, P-r-a-l-e-r-, P-r-a-l-e-r-.
BY DR. MAYER: Witness, did you at any time take over the job of this man Praler as Kammler's deputy?
A. No, I didn't even meet him at the time.
Q. What did you do after returning back to your office after you got out of the hospital?
A. When I returned to my job I found this order, I inquired with the adjutant's office what I had to do, and I was told that Kammler went on leave for three weeks, since the 6th of September, and that generally speaking nothing was to be done about it because Dr. Kammler had, or would like to continue the job himself, and he wanted to take care matters himself personally.
Q. I would like to refer your attention to the last paragraph of the document in particular. Can you tell us now come that in spite of the fact that there was a deputy, all mail matters, and the preparing of papers for submission to Kammler were handled by another person, namely be a certain Mr. Lubenheimer.
L-u-b-e-n-h-e-i-m-e-r?
A. Well, because Kammler, just as usual, when he left Berlin, he had a courier service for his mail. That courier service was to bring him the mail twice or thrice a week, including the various folders containing documents to be signed of the various offices. Lubenheimer had the task, as can be clearly seen from this document, to send both the mail and the folders with the letters to be signed to Dr. Kammler. However, that was the only change that actually occurred with reference to the normal business correspondence. That is how the word "basically" in combination with the term "deputization" should be understood. It means that a deputy was nominated formally, but that practically the job continued just as usual.
Q. Can you tell us why such an order of deputization for Kammler came about?
A. Yes. There was a general order that every head of an agency, due to the possibility of loss of life through enemy activity, would have to nominate a deputy. And that was done.
Q. How was it that Kammler selected you for this position?
A. At the time I believe that I was a senior on the list of ranks of Amtsgruppe C, because Standartenfuehrer Eirenschmalz, one of the defendants here, since the middle of 1943 had become sick, and he was not working at the time.
Q. Now, witness, would you take a look at Exhibit 38, Document Book II which is Document No. III, which is on page 59 of the English Document Book. That is a photostatic copy of the organizational chart of the WVHA, dated the 3rd of March, 1942. You will find there under the name of Chief of Amtsgruppe, Kammler the name of SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Busching, B-u-s-c-h-i-n-g, as deputy, whose name is stricken out, and then it says there beside SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Schleif, S-c-h-l-e-i-f. Now how long was Busching Kammler's deputy, and from what date on was Schleif his deputy?
Q. Busching was Kammler's deputy to the end of 1942, and Professor Schleif was deputy from October or November, 1943, until the end.
Q. Did Busching or Schleif have any further tasks in Amtsgruppe C?
A. Busching at the same time was the personnel expert with Kammler, and Schleif was just the deputy and nothing else.
Q. Did you at any time carry out any functions while deputizing Kammler?
A. No.
DR. MAYER: I just heard that the Defendant Kiefer's disease was mustranslated before. The Defendant Keife3r spoke of a guertelrose. I would just like to have the name rectified in order not to create a wrong picture. Guertelrose is the name.
BY DR. MAYER: Now, coming back to the last subject, Witness, were you also a member of the General SS?
A. Yes, since the 2nd of July, 1935.
Q. What was it that actually compelled you to join the SS?
A. You can only understand that problem if you know the general situation in 1935, and particularly if you know the peculiar circumstances of my profession. On the basis of my long experience I knew that in my particular field the jobs would not come to us, but that we would have to go out and fish for them, so to say. That was the reason why I actually was dependent on having connections with certain circles, more so than any other man in any other profession, circles which were interested in construction, in dwelling construction and home construction, etc.
In 1935 the main part of various orders started going into the incorporations, which were the basis of the new regime; and when observing the whole thing with a critical eye I told myself that it would be very opportune to be able to find a connection somewhere in order not to be out of a job as an architect some day. I would like to say that first of all I started trying to get a job with the German Labor Front. That, however, I did not find there, the necessary prerequisites which would help a free architect carry out his work, because there was more of a monopoly, if you want to put it that way, in there.
A little while after that, a colleague of mine and another comrade of mine who was a veteran from the last war told me that organization, the Allgemeine SS could possibly be interested in this matter because it is a principle of the General SS to have families and to take care of their families. And due to the bad living conditions at the time where there was actually a lack of one and a half million flats, it was absolutely logical, I thought, that the necessary measures would have to be taken to billet those families, since one of the principles of the SS was to care for their families. And then, as I was told that the SS was a circle of men with integrity and good character, good records, I believed that I would find my own principles corroborated in those circles: that I would also get the necessary professional promotions which I was seeking.
That was the reason why I joined the General SS. On the 2nd of July, 1935 I was accepted, with the rank of a Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q What were your ideas at the time about the aims of that organization?
A My opinion about the aims of that organization was just described by me now when I said that I regarded the SS as a conglomeration of men with good backgrounds -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: If you have already stated it once, I don't see the necessity of repeating it.
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q After you joined the SS, were you in close contact and in steady contact with the SS? Or how was it that your relationship turned out to be with the SS?
A My contact with the General SS was rather loose because I was kept so busy in the Reich Air Ministry that I couldn't possibly deal with anything else in a closer way. In all those years I believe that I participated in three or four gatherings of comrades in the House of Fliers in Berlin. That was all. Never at any time did I have a position in the General SS, nor did I serve there. And, particularly, I didn't act there in any way, neither in a part-time, nor in a full-time job.
Q According to your opinion, and according to your knowledge, do you think that the aims of the General SS changed in the course of the years?
A No; until the outbreak of the war I saw no reason why I should have changed my mind because again and again I saw the SS members and I met SS leaders together with representatives of foreign countries in certain gatherings and receptions in Berlin. The last time I saw that was in April, 1939, when there was this big parade in Charlottenburg. I was sitting there right opposite the podium where the Reich Government was, and I could see everything that was going on on the Reich side. During the war the General SS was actually removed from official life and from the cities. The SS was out in the field, As far as the SS had been drafted into the air force, navy and army, the members actually resigned from the SS, according to the regulations, and only the members who were with the Waffen SS units were still carried op their list as SS members. The General SS, during the war, had become absolutely unimportant, and even in that case there was no reason for me to actually change my opinion.
Q Your membership in the General SS - did it have any influence on the fact that you were drafted into the Waffen-SS?
A No; as I already told you before, only professional reflections caused me to join the SS.
Q Witness, I would like to ask you another thing now. Did you, on the basis of your activity in Office 2 of Amtsgruppe C have the impression that the WVHA and thus Amtsgruppe C were to be used, or were actually used, to work to death inmates of all nations; or then to eliminate certain races and groups of human beings - and that systematically?
A No, I never had any connections with any labor assignment agencies, and I never did receive any reports from such agencies. I didn't have any authority to issue any orders in that respect. In other words, there was no reason whatsoever for me, nor was there any opportunity to study all these labor assignment questions.
Q Did you know the Action 14-F-13, or the Reinhardt Action?
A No, I didn't. Both of them were unknown to me.
Q Did you know anything about the medical experiments as they are contained in the evidence submitted by the Prosecution? And did you ever hear anything about them?
A Neither did I know them nor did I hear anything about them.
Q Did you know that slave labor was being demanded in the concentration camps? And that the labor assignment of inmates within and outside of the concentration camps took place with inhumane conditions?
A No, I didn't.
Q In the WVHA, and particularly Amtsgruppe C - you worked there for three and a half years, didn't you? Now, can you give us a statement, or can you give us an explanation why you never heard about that inhuman treatment of concentration camp inmates? Why you didn't hear of the mass murders and of all those medical experiments? Why didn't you ever hear anything about them, and why didn't you know anything about them?
A That I didn't know it is due to the fact that I never did have an opportunity to go and see the things for myself. Furthermore, another reason was that I had no connections whatsoever with those agencies which dealt with those matters, and as far as not hearing it is concerned, I think this can be justified by the fact that those concentration camp matters were covered up by a secrecy order, a very severe secrecy order which wouldn't let those things slip through to me in Berlin.
DR. MAYER: Thank you; no further questions for the time being.
THE PRESIDENT: Questioning by defense counsel?
BY DR. VON STEIN (Counsel for the defendant Eirenschmalz):
Q Witness, from January, 1943 to May, approximately, 1943. Eirenschmalz was mentioned as Kammler's deputy in the organizational chart. Do you know why Eirenschmalz was taken into the organizational chart as Kammler's deputy?
A It was not known to me. However, I assume that took place because Eirenschmalz was the highest one in the seniority list in Amtsgruppe C.
Q Can you recall, witness, that within that time a larger bomb damage took place, and that the entire Amtsgruppe was busy with clearing up the debris?
A Yes, indeed. In March, 1943 - the offices of Amtsgruppe C, for the largest part, were almost entirely destroyed, and part of them at least were badly damaged.
Q Did you notice that within that time, from January 1943 up to March 1943. Eirenschmalz did actually deputize?
A No, would he have deputized, then I am sure that I would have had to report to him at some time or other as Kammler's deputy, or then I would have had to submit signatures to him. According to my opinion, this never did happen.
Q Thank you; no further questions.
BY DR. KLINERT (Counsel for the defendant Bobermin):
Q Witness, when did you meet Dr. Bobermin?
A I met Dr. Bobermin here in Nurnberg.
Q. Therefore, you didn't have anything to do with him, either officially or unofficially, before?
A. No, I didn't know him.
Q. Both of you were chiefs of offices in the same Main Office were you not?
A. Yes, in the same Main Office, indeed; but I didn't see Bobermin in Berlin, and I know today that he did not have his office in Berlin, but it wasn't known to me at the time.
DR. KLINERT: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination from defense? There apparently being none, I have just two questions to ask the witness.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. I think we have been told this before, but Kammler is no longer living, is he?
A. Your Honor. I don't know that. I have only heard rumors about it.
Q. What did you hear?
A. I heard two rumors. One of them is that he committed suicide by shooting himself after the collapse; and the second rumor is that he is in Russia.
Q. What about Sesmann, who was the head of C I?
A. It is not known to me as to where he is at the moment. I don't know, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Does counsel know?
DR. MAYER: No, I didn't hear anything about him either.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: I believe, sir, that he is dead.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. All right. Cross-examination, please.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): I should like to ask the witness just one question.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO):
Q. I understood you to say that up until the outbreak of the war you had no reason to chang your original opinion about the SS as being made up of elite characters. That is correct, isn't it?
A. Yes, indeed, that's what I said.
Q. Did you not know of the excesses performed by the SS, especially in November of 1938?
A. I read of it, these excesses. However, at the time I didn't hear nor did I learn in any way that those were excesses on the part of the SS.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, what was the maximum number of personnel subordinate to you as Chief of Office?
A. I believe that the personnel strength of twenty-five, which is contained in Document NO-1288, is the highest one. That was the highest number of people I had in my office.
Q. You mentioned that you conducted a class in construction which you were teaching in July of 1944. Did that continue until the end of the war?
A. Yes, indeed, with certain interruptions. If I am to tell you that exactly, there were several courses, four of them, as far as I know; and every course took a certain period of time, several weeks. Then there was a certain interval between those two courses.
Q. You still remained Office Chief?
A. Yes; nothing changed there.
Q. You were still responsible for the operation of your office?
A. Yes. Yes, I was responsible for that.
Q. Were these classes in Berlin?
A. No, those classes were in Arolsen.
Q. How far is that from Berlin?
A. In kilometers I'd say approximately three hundred.
Q. Did you have a class on Saturday?
A. If it was said in the schedule, yes. It varied, however, because we had to agree with the various teachers as far as free time was concerned, you see.
Q. Well, how much time did you spend in Berlin during that time?
A. I'd like to understand what you mean by that. You mean as a total or what? I didn't get that. Will you please repeat?
Q. How many days a week did you spend in Berlin up to July 1944?
A. That is very difficult to tell. If I am to answer this in a general way, approximately half of the time between July and March 1945.
Q. You were usually in Berlin on week-ends, were you not? That's where your family was?
A. If it was possible for me, I would go and see my family over the week-end; but my family was not in Berlin. It was outside of Berlin.
Q. You were usually there on Saturday in Berlin, weren't you?
A. Not generally speaking, no; but only on those particular days when I was free in Arolsen and could get away. To be sure, as I said before, that is about half the time which I mentioned, by deducting the days when I went to see my family.
Q. How, would you say you were in Berlin and at the office on Saturday half of the time after July 1944?
A. That's approximately right.
Q. When you were there, you attended the conferences of the office chiefs, didn't you?
A. If there was a conference of experts at the time, then I would participate.
MR. ROBBINS: I am going to start on a new subject-matter, Your Honor; and I wonder if this would be a convenient time to recess.
THE PRESIDENT: No, Mr. Robbins, for reasons which you can't observe.
MR. ROBBINS: Very well, your Honor.
Q. I want to direct your attention for a moment to the knowledge which you had in January 1942 when you were made a chief of an office in the WVHA. You knew there were concentration camps in Germany, did you not?
A. It is hard to answer that question with yes or no. May I draw your attention to the fact that I said January. As far as I know, I became Chief of Office in March.
Q. I'm directing your attention to the month prior to the organization of the WVHA and asking you about January.
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You knew there were concentration camps in Germany?
A. Yes, that was known to me.
Q. How many did you know of?
A. Well, I knew for sure that there was a concentration camp at Oraienburg and one in Dachau. I believe that I didn't know of any more between 1941 and 1942.
Q. You knew of only two concentration camps?
A. Yes. As far as I recall at the time I knew of the existence of only those two concentration camps. That was towards the end of 1941, or early in 1942.
Q. Later on did you find out about additional camps?
A. In the course of the years I learned of more concentration camp names, yes.
Q. What camps did you learn about?
A. Up to the end I believe I knew the names Neuengamme, Mauthausen, Buchenwald, Auschwitz-
Q. Is that all?
A. Stutthof-
Q. Natzweiler?
A. Natzweiler, no. Natzweiler became known to me only much later.
I didn't know that there was a concentration camp at Natzweiler.
Q. How about Nordhausen?
A. No, Nordhausen only became known to me in the course of these trials here, and that particularly as a working place where they had certain billets for inmates, that is to say as a camp.
Q. How many inmates did you think were in the concentration camps in January 1942?
A. Well, I must admit honestly that I never did consider that question. If I am to tell you some figure now, then it would just be a figure which I imagine and it actually wouldn't correspond to the facts.
Q. You mean you knew there were several thousand, didn't you?
A. No, no.
Q. Several hundred? Ten or twenty?
A. I said before, Mr. Prosecutor, that I didn't know the exact figures. Any figure that I would tell you here would actually be a statement which I drew from the air without any proof, and it wouldn't correspond to the facts.
Q. Did you think at that time that all of the inmates in the concentration camps were criminals and had been duly tried and placed in the concentration camps?
A. I must make the following statement about that. According to my opinion there is a fib difference between a political prisoner and a criminal. I myself was definitely convinced that there were political prisoners in the concentration camps, prisoners whom the state wanted to get rid of or at least secure for special reasons. In my opinion the criminals were in the jails, whereas all the other ones were in the concentration camps.
Q. Did you think that all of these so-called political prisoners had been given trial? You knew, didn't you, that people were just rounded up and placed in concentration camps without having been given a trial?
You knew that, didn't you?
A. No, I didn't know that at the time; and had someone told me at the time, I would have denied it immediately. The reason for that would have been that I had heard on repeated occasions that men, human beings, who actually led an impeccable life had been arrested by the Gestapo for political reasons and taken to a Gestapo agency somewhere, and only then were they transferred to a concentration camp.
It was my opinion, you see, that there was a trial.
Q. But you heard of people who had led impeccable lives being put in concentration camps?
A. Yes, it was known to me that employees or officials of the German Communist Party or of other parties, people who were members of some other organization, a Leftist organization, had been put aside because they were looked upon by the new government as enemies of the state.
Q. You knew also, didn't you, that large numbers of Jews were placed in concentration camps simply because they were Jews?
A. No, that was not known to me.
Q. When is the first time you heard about that?
A. That Jews were placed in concentration camps because they were Jews? I didn't know that all during the war.
Q. You didn't know that any foreigners were in the concentration camps either, did you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. You didn't know that any foreigners were used in the construction details under Amtsgruppe C?
A. I didn't know what categories of inmates were used as construction brigades.
Q. Who did you think worked in the construction inspectorates and the buildings in the district for Posen and Silesia, where the headquarters was Kattowitz, and the district for Bohemia, where the headquarters was Prague?
Did you think that they deported German's out there to do the work?
A. That there was a concentration camp in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was unknown to me and therefore I couldn't possible think there was some question of labor assignment there nor that inmates were used for labor.
Q. You didn't know that there were any labor camps in those districts? You thought they were all free workers? Is that right?
A. In the Protectorate, yes. I'm still of the same opinion. I'm of the opinion that the work was carried out there on a voluntary basis. It is entirely different of the Government General--and by that I mean Poland. Of course, I did think that there were certain elements who had violated regulations of the occupational forces, the Wehrmacht or the civilian regulations, and that they had therefore been put aside. And, of course, according to the regulations concerning labor assignment--I had to assume anyway that they were put to work.
Q. You didn't hear that inmates were worked to death in the underground tunnels where the munitions and armament program of Amtsgruppe C was being carried out? You didn't hear of inmates being worked to death in the underground tunnels?
A. No, and I would like to say the following, Your Honor.
Q. Just answer my question and then I'll give you a chance to explain it.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
( A recess was taken. )