A No; as I already told you before, only professional reflections caused me to join the SS.
Q Witness, I would like to ask you another thing now. Did you, on the basis of your activity in Office 2 of Amtsgruppe C have the impression that the WVHA and thus Amtsgruppe C were to be used, or were actually used, to work to death inmates of all nations; or then to eliminate certain races and groups of human beings - and that systematically?
A No, I never had any connections with any labor assignment agencies, and I never did receive any reports from such agencies. I didn't have any authority to issue any orders in that respect. In other words, there was no reason whatsoever for me, nor was there any opportunity to study all these labor assignment questions.
Q Did you know the Action 14-F-13, or the Reinhardt Action?
A No, I didn't. Both of them were unknown to me.
Q Did you know anything about the medical experiments as they are contained in the evidence submitted by the Prosecution? And did you ever hear anything about them?
A Neither did I know them nor did I hear anything about them.
Q Did you know that slave labor was being demanded in the concentration camps? And that the labor assignment of inmates within and outside of the concentration camps took place with inhumane conditions?
A No, I didn't.
Q In the WVHA, and particularly Amtsgruppe C - you worked there for three and a half years, didn't you? Now, can you give us a statement, or can you give us an explanation why you never heard about that inhuman treatment of concentration camp inmates? Why you didn't hear of the mass murders and of all those medical experiments? Why didn't you ever hear anything about them, and why didn't you know anything about them?
A That I didn't know it is due to the fact that I never did have an opportunity to go and see the things for myself. Furthermore, another reason was that I had no connections whatsoever with those agencies which dealt with those matters, and as far as not hearing it is concerned, I think this can be justified by the fact that those concentration camp matters were covered up by a secrecy order, a very severe secrecy order which wouldn't let those things slip through to me in Berlin.
DR. MAYER: Thank you; no further questions for the time being.
THE PRESIDENT: Questioning by defense counsel?
BY DR. VON STEIN (Counsel for the defendant Eirenschmalz):
Q Witness, from January, 1943 to May, approximately, 1943. Eirenschmalz was mentioned as Kammler's deputy in the organizational chart. Do you know why Eirenschmalz was taken into the organizational chart as Kammler's deputy?
A It was not known to me. However, I assume that took place because Eirenschmalz was the highest one in the seniority list in Amtsgruppe C.
Q Can you recall, witness, that within that time a larger bomb damage took place, and that the entire Amtsgruppe was busy with clearing up the debris?
A Yes, indeed. In March, 1943 - the offices of Amtsgruppe C, for the largest part, were almost entirely destroyed, and part of them at least were badly damaged.
Q Did you notice that within that time, from January 1943 up to March 1943. Eirenschmalz did actually deputize?
A No, would he have deputized, then I am sure that I would have had to report to him at some time or other as Kammler's deputy, or then I would have had to submit signatures to him. According to my opinion, this never did happen.
Q Thank you; no further questions.
BY DR. KLINERT (Counsel for the defendant Bobermin):
Q Witness, when did you meet Dr. Bobermin?
A I met Dr. Bobermin here in Nurnberg.
Q. Therefore, you didn't have anything to do with him, either officially or unofficially, before?
A. No, I didn't know him.
Q. Both of you were chiefs of offices in the same Main Office were you not?
A. Yes, in the same Main Office, indeed; but I didn't see Bobermin in Berlin, and I know today that he did not have his office in Berlin, but it wasn't known to me at the time.
DR. KLINERT: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination from defense? There apparently being none, I have just two questions to ask the witness.
EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. I think we have been told this before, but Kammler is no longer living, is he?
A. Your Honor. I don't know that. I have only heard rumors about it.
Q. What did you hear?
A. I heard two rumors. One of them is that he committed suicide by shooting himself after the collapse; and the second rumor is that he is in Russia.
Q. What about Sesmann, who was the head of C I?
A. It is not known to me as to where he is at the moment. I don't know, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Does counsel know?
DR. MAYER: No, I didn't hear anything about him either.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: I believe, sir, that he is dead.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. All right. Cross-examination, please.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): I should like to ask the witness just one question.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO):
Q. I understood you to say that up until the outbreak of the war you had no reason to chang your original opinion about the SS as being made up of elite characters. That is correct, isn't it?
A. Yes, indeed, that's what I said.
Q. Did you not know of the excesses performed by the SS, especially in November of 1938?
A. I read of it, these excesses. However, at the time I didn't hear nor did I learn in any way that those were excesses on the part of the SS.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, what was the maximum number of personnel subordinate to you as Chief of Office?
A. I believe that the personnel strength of twenty-five, which is contained in Document NO-1288, is the highest one. That was the highest number of people I had in my office.
Q. You mentioned that you conducted a class in construction which you were teaching in July of 1944. Did that continue until the end of the war?
A. Yes, indeed, with certain interruptions. If I am to tell you that exactly, there were several courses, four of them, as far as I know; and every course took a certain period of time, several weeks. Then there was a certain interval between those two courses.
Q. You still remained Office Chief?
A. Yes; nothing changed there.
Q. You were still responsible for the operation of your office?
A. Yes. Yes, I was responsible for that.
Q. Were these classes in Berlin?
A. No, those classes were in Arolsen.
Q. How far is that from Berlin?
A. In kilometers I'd say approximately three hundred.
Q. Did you have a class on Saturday?
A. If it was said in the schedule, yes. It varied, however, because we had to agree with the various teachers as far as free time was concerned, you see.
Q. Well, how much time did you spend in Berlin during that time?
A. I'd like to understand what you mean by that. You mean as a total or what? I didn't get that. Will you please repeat?
Q. How many days a week did you spend in Berlin up to July 1944?
A. That is very difficult to tell. If I am to answer this in a general way, approximately half of the time between July and March 1945.
Q. You were usually in Berlin on week-ends, were you not? That's where your family was?
A. If it was possible for me, I would go and see my family over the week-end; but my family was not in Berlin. It was outside of Berlin.
Q. You were usually there on Saturday in Berlin, weren't you?
A. Not generally speaking, no; but only on those particular days when I was free in Arolsen and could get away. To be sure, as I said before, that is about half the time which I mentioned, by deducting the days when I went to see my family.
Q. How, would you say you were in Berlin and at the office on Saturday half of the time after July 1944?
A. That's approximately right.
Q. When you were there, you attended the conferences of the office chiefs, didn't you?
A. If there was a conference of experts at the time, then I would participate.
MR. ROBBINS: I am going to start on a new subject-matter, Your Honor; and I wonder if this would be a convenient time to recess.
THE PRESIDENT: No, Mr. Robbins, for reasons which you can't observe.
MR. ROBBINS: Very well, your Honor.
Q. I want to direct your attention for a moment to the knowledge which you had in January 1942 when you were made a chief of an office in the WVHA. You knew there were concentration camps in Germany, did you not?
A. It is hard to answer that question with yes or no. May I draw your attention to the fact that I said January. As far as I know, I became Chief of Office in March.
Q. I'm directing your attention to the month prior to the organization of the WVHA and asking you about January.
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. You knew there were concentration camps in Germany?
A. Yes, that was known to me.
Q. How many did you know of?
A. Well, I knew for sure that there was a concentration camp at Oraienburg and one in Dachau. I believe that I didn't know of any more between 1941 and 1942.
Q. You knew of only two concentration camps?
A. Yes. As far as I recall at the time I knew of the existence of only those two concentration camps. That was towards the end of 1941, or early in 1942.
Q. Later on did you find out about additional camps?
A. In the course of the years I learned of more concentration camp names, yes.
Q. What camps did you learn about?
A. Up to the end I believe I knew the names Neuengamme, Mauthausen, Buchenwald, Auschwitz-
Q. Is that all?
A. Stutthof-
Q. Natzweiler?
A. Natzweiler, no. Natzweiler became known to me only much later.
I didn't know that there was a concentration camp at Natzweiler.
Q. How about Nordhausen?
A. No, Nordhausen only became known to me in the course of these trials here, and that particularly as a working place where they had certain billets for inmates, that is to say as a camp.
Q. How many inmates did you think were in the concentration camps in January 1942?
A. Well, I must admit honestly that I never did consider that question. If I am to tell you some figure now, then it would just be a figure which I imagine and it actually wouldn't correspond to the facts.
Q. You mean you knew there were several thousand, didn't you?
A. No, no.
Q. Several hundred? Ten or twenty?
A. I said before, Mr. Prosecutor, that I didn't know the exact figures. Any figure that I would tell you here would actually be a statement which I drew from the air without any proof, and it wouldn't correspond to the facts.
Q. Did you think at that time that all of the inmates in the concentration camps were criminals and had been duly tried and placed in the concentration camps?
A. I must make the following statement about that. According to my opinion there is a fib difference between a political prisoner and a criminal. I myself was definitely convinced that there were political prisoners in the concentration camps, prisoners whom the state wanted to get rid of or at least secure for special reasons. In my opinion the criminals were in the jails, whereas all the other ones were in the concentration camps.
Q. Did you think that all of these so-called political prisoners had been given trial? You knew, didn't you, that people were just rounded up and placed in concentration camps without having been given a trial?
You knew that, didn't you?
A. No, I didn't know that at the time; and had someone told me at the time, I would have denied it immediately. The reason for that would have been that I had heard on repeated occasions that men, human beings, who actually led an impeccable life had been arrested by the Gestapo for political reasons and taken to a Gestapo agency somewhere, and only then were they transferred to a concentration camp.
It was my opinion, you see, that there was a trial.
Q. But you heard of people who had led impeccable lives being put in concentration camps?
A. Yes, it was known to me that employees or officials of the German Communist Party or of other parties, people who were members of some other organization, a Leftist organization, had been put aside because they were looked upon by the new government as enemies of the state.
Q. You knew also, didn't you, that large numbers of Jews were placed in concentration camps simply because they were Jews?
A. No, that was not known to me.
Q. When is the first time you heard about that?
A. That Jews were placed in concentration camps because they were Jews? I didn't know that all during the war.
Q. You didn't know that any foreigners were in the concentration camps either, did you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. You didn't know that any foreigners were used in the construction details under Amtsgruppe C?
A. I didn't know what categories of inmates were used as construction brigades.
Q. Who did you think worked in the construction inspectorates and the buildings in the district for Posen and Silesia, where the headquarters was Kattowitz, and the district for Bohemia, where the headquarters was Prague?
Did you think that they deported German's out there to do the work?
A. That there was a concentration camp in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia was unknown to me and therefore I couldn't possible think there was some question of labor assignment there nor that inmates were used for labor.
Q. You didn't know that there were any labor camps in those districts? You thought they were all free workers? Is that right?
A. In the Protectorate, yes. I'm still of the same opinion. I'm of the opinion that the work was carried out there on a voluntary basis. It is entirely different of the Government General--and by that I mean Poland. Of course, I did think that there were certain elements who had violated regulations of the occupational forces, the Wehrmacht or the civilian regulations, and that they had therefore been put aside. And, of course, according to the regulations concerning labor assignment--I had to assume anyway that they were put to work.
Q. You didn't hear that inmates were worked to death in the underground tunnels where the munitions and armament program of Amtsgruppe C was being carried out? You didn't hear of inmates being worked to death in the underground tunnels?
A. No, and I would like to say the following, Your Honor.
Q. Just answer my question and then I'll give you a chance to explain it.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
( A recess was taken. )
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, I should like to repeat a question to you just to see if I get the same answer the second time. I can't believe that I will. Did you ever hear the Jews were placed in concentration camps by the Reich just because they were Jews?
A. No, I never heard that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Was that the same answer as before?
Q. Yes, sir. Did you ever hear of the Nuernberg Laws, Witness?
A. Yes, I read about the Nuernberg Laws.
Q. Did you ever read any of the literature of the SS?
A. Occasionally I would read part of the SS literature.
Q. Did you ever read any of the literature of the Nazi Party?
A. I don't know of any Nazi literature which I read outside of the press.
Q. Well, did you ever read the Stuermer?
A. No, I never read that paper. I saw it on the newsstands but I would not even touch it.
Q. Did you ever read the Schwarzes Korps, the SS newspaper?
A. Yes, I read that.
Q. Did you read the pamphlet that Himmler put out for the SS men called the SS an Anti-bolshevist Fighting Organization?
A. No, it's unknown to me.
Q. Did you ever read the Organization Book of the Nazi Party?
A. No, I didn't read that either. It's completely unknown to me.
Q. Never even heard of the Organization Book of the Nazi Party, what?
A. No, the Organization Book of the Party never came to my attention, I never even heard of it.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO: Do you know of Mein Kampf?
A. Mein Kampf ? I read the book, yes.
Q. You read the book?
A. Yes, it's a book which the Fuehrer wrote. Yes, I read it.
Q. What year did you read it in? You read it before the war?
A. Yes, before the war, I believe I read it in the year 1937. I am just trying to find the exact time. I believe that it was in 1937.
Q. Well, you knew what Hitler said about the Jews then?
A. I read it, yes.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Did you ever go to any of the Nazi Party rallies?
A. I never took part in a rally of the Nazi Party. I didn't have time for that.
Q. I didn't ask you that. I asked you if you attended.
A. I stated that I never attended one. I have never been there.
Q. You didn't see when you were reading the Schwarzes Korps that its policy was to promote the elimination of Jews from Germany? You didn't see that in the Schwarzes Korps?
A. I certainly did not read that in the Schwarzes Korps. I didn't see that elimination was being discussed there.
Q. Did you ever visit a concentration camp?
A. No, I never visited a concentration camp.
Q. You were never in a concentration camp in your life?
A. No.
Q. When you came to the WVHA you knew that Amtsgruppe C was to use inmate labor in its construction projects, did you not?
A. No, it was unknown to me at the time. I heard about that much later.
Q. How much later?
A. Let's say in the middle of 1942 or at the end of 1942.
Q. Had you ever heard that Amtsgruppe C used foreign labor in its construction projects?
A. Yes, I heard that, and also heard that there was an enterprise named Heinrich there. That was an establishment which, as far as I know , was copied from the allocation of foreign workers of the Organization Todt.
As far as I know, firms were used here which on their own initiative worked or employed and conscripted foreign workers.
Q. Did you hear that these were concentration camp inmates?
A. No, they were volunteers. They were workers which were given a contract on the free market or who had volunteered. They were used, employed by firms.
Q. You believe that they worked voluntarily?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever hear that anyone working on a construction project of Amtsgruppe C was worked to death?
A. No, I never heard anything of that sort.
Q. Not even one person?
A. No not in a single case.
Q. When you joined the WVHA you knew the nature of the tasks that Amtsgruppe W was to perform, did you not?
A. The task of the Office W were unknown to me during my entire activity and they were certainly unknown to me at the time.
Q. When you joined the WVHA you knew the nature of the task that Amtsgruppe W was to perform, did you not?
A. The task of Office W was rather unknown to me in my entire activity and with certainty not known to me at that time.
Q. Did you ever find out that they used concentration camp inmates in their industries?
A. In the W Plants? In the economic plants? No, I did not know that.
Q. Witness, where did you think these industries were located? You knew they were located in the concentration camps, didn't you?
A. I hardly believe -- Yes, I knew of it because I knew that at Oranienburg there were some brick works, and therefore I must assume that if there are some works at Oranienburg, as a W-plant, this must be in some connection with the labor that was available there.
Q. Just try to concentrate a little harder on your answers in the future then, will you? When Amtsgruppe D was put into the WVHA you knew what kind of an organization that was, didn't you? You knew that it was to administer concentration camp inmates, concentration camps, or did you think that it had nothing to do with inmate labor?
A. These W Plants were always described to us as private enterprises, and I always thought that they were private enterprises.
Q. I am talking about Amtsgruppe D, D for "Dog", and when Amtsgruppe D was placed into the WVHA you knew that it was to administer concentration camps, that it had been the concentration camp inspectorate; you knew that, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew that there was a labor allocation office In Amtsgruppe D, didn't you?
A. I knew that from the organizational chart.
Q. Where did you think the inmates were allocated to by this labor allocation office?
A. I thought at that time--as far as I thought about these matters at all--that this was work which was connected with the camp itself or which was to be carried out in the immediate vicinity of the camp.
Q. But you did not give it very much thought?
A. No, certainly not. I did not have any reason to do so.
Q. Did you ever have a conversation with any one who worked for Amtsgruppe D?
A. Who worked for Amtsgruppe D? No, that is unknown to me.
Q. You never even spoke to any one in Amtsgruppe D?
A. No, I have never been in Oranienburg, and from Oranienburg nobody came to see me, and I don't know any member of Amtsgruppe D.
Q. You would not have known Gluecks if you had seen him, would you?
A. I would have recognized Gluecks because I had met him one time at a Christmas celebration at Berlin. I was introduced to him on that occasion.
Q. Is that the only time you ever talked to Gluecks?
A. Yes, as far as I can recall, this Christmas celebration was the only time. I did not talk to Gluecks. I was merely introduced to him.
Q. Did you know Maurer?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever have a conversation with anyone in Amtsgruppe W?
A. W? No.
Q. Did you ever speak to any of them? Did you know them if you saw them? They were in the same general location with you, the same building practically.
A. No, I think that the W Offices were located in different buildings and in different ends of Berlin. In part they were even located outside Berlin.
Q. Did you ever speak to anyone in Amtsgruppe W? Did you know them personally?
A. I would like to put it this way: Officially I did not have any contact with them, and I did not talk to them. It is quite possible, however, that on some occasion or other some of these officers were together with me and as it is usual I had a short discussion with them, but they were not official discussions.
Q. They were not business discussions? They did not have anything to do with the business in the WVHA?
A. Yes. I must limit this. I just recalled one particular case. In the field of the housing construction I also had to look after the facilities which were to be installed in the new housing program, and on this occasion I at one time tried to obtain the advice of a leader in the W Office. That was the W Office which had to do with the wood production matters and so forth. They produced furniture and at the time I tried to obtain some advice about various subjects.
Q. Which office was that in W?
A. As far as I can judge, that must have been Office W-IV. It is very hard for me to read it on the chart.
Q. Is that all you remember about the conversation?
A. Yes. I know what the subject we discussed on that occasion was. We were discussing the furniture to be put in a kitchen, or new basins, and I asked the man to tell me from his experience how these matters could be installed in the most appropriate manner; that is to say, the facilities which were to be installed in the kitchen.
He gave me some advice, and thus I was able to continue with my work. He showed me some sketches about these facilities that were to be installed.
Q. Where were they to be installed? What kitchen?
A. These were the ketchens for the construction and housing construction program which was to be carried out after the war.
Q. Is that the only conversation you had with anyone in Amtsgruppe W?
A. I did not understand.
Q. W.
A. As far as I can recall at the moment yes.
Q. Did you have any conversations with anyone in Amtsgruppe A?
A. No, I do not recall ever having had any discussions with any officer or leader in Office Group A in any matters whatsoever.
Q. You never even spoke to them? Did you know them personally?
A. I probably knew all members of Amtsgruppe A.personally because they were located in the same block.
Q. But you never had any business conference with any of them?
A. We did not have to discuss any official matters there.
Q. I did not ask you if you had to; I asked you if you did.
A. No.
Q. How about the people in Amtsgruppe B? Did you ever talk to them about business matters?
A. No, I did not discuss any official matters with them either.
Q. Did you know them?
A. Yes, I certainly knew them, at least a large number of them.
Q. Before we get too far away from Amtsgruppe W, do you recall having had conversations with anyone concerning the textile and leather industry under Amtsgruppe W?
A. No, I can't recall the leather industry at all.
Q. Textile and leather.
A. No.
Q. Do you recall designing or making sketches for any kind of buildings concerning mechanical weaving?
A. No, I did not design any sketches at all.
Q. Did you make any designs or sketches for any kind of hothouses, greenhouses, at any time?
A. No.
Q. You don't remember sketching plans for hothouses to be used at Ravensbruck concentration camp?
A. No, I cannot recall that at all.
Q. Would you recall it if it happened?
A. I hardly believe that I could remember, because a greenhouse is such a small matter which would be forgotten very quickly.
Q. So it is possible that you made such designs and have forgotten about them? Is that it?
A. I hardly think so. I hardly think that I would have forgotten them if I had sketched them.
Q. I thought you said you might have forgotten them. Is it your testimony that you have never made any sketches or plans whatsoever for use in concentration camp Ravensbruck?
A. No, I cannot recall it.
Q. Well, do you exclude that possibility?
A. I would have to exclude it because in my office I never sketched any plans for concentration camps.
Q. In your direct testimony you referred to the Fuehrer order for an increase in buildings, increase in dwellings. How many million dwelling houses did that program envisage?
A. I believe 5,000,000.
Q. You knew, didn't you, that concentration camp inmates were to be used in carrying out that program?
A. That matter was never discussed.
Q. I asked you if you knew about it.
A. I could not know it because exactly the contrary was the case. The question never arose whether these dwellings were to be constructed by inmates.
Q. You have seen from the documents, haven't you, that Pohl was given the job to have inmates trained for the postwar building program? You know that today, don't you?
A. I have seen from the documents that stone cutters had been trained, and so on. However, that had nothing to do with the program for the building of houses after the war.
Q: Now, you spoke about the army hospitals that were built, the plans that you designed for those hospitals and training centers for the Waffen-SS. Were those plans ever carried into completion, were the buildings erected?
A: As far as I know throughout the entire time of the war, no army hospitals were built within the territory of the Reich, but as far as the troop units receiving new army hospitals was concerned they were established in buildings which had already been previously constructed. However, that was not the task of the WVHA, but that of the Operational Main Office, and the Medical Office had to take care of that.
Q: I still don't know what your answer is to my question, were these army hospitals for which you drew the basic plans and the training centers for the Waffen-SS, were these things ever constructed?
A: I had nothing to do with the buildings in the training centers of the Waffen-SS. However, army hospitals within the territory of the Reich were never constructed.
Q: All right, the army hospitals were not constructed. Were the training centers for the Waffen-SS ever constructed? I didn't ask you if you constructed them. I asked you if they were ever constructed? You said you spent lots of time on it. You weren't doing anything else for months but working on the plan. You surely know about it.
A: The two training centers where I had to compose the drafts, no army hospitals were built. However, I know that the troops in the training centers had to use private hospitals.
Q: Witness, you told the Court that you worked for months on plans for two training centers for the Waffen-SS. I am asking you now for the fourth time, were those plans ever carried out. Were the buildings ever built?