At the end, he had only four collaborators.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you look at C-II/2, Buildings for Armament, Ammunition and Signal Purposes. That was not for after the war, was it?
DR. MAYER: The witness has stated in this connection that the communication facilities were taken away already from the beginning because we had an agency which was competent for this in the Operational Main Office which worked on these matters during the war. He stated that he had drafted the sketches for a practice shooting field and that he had nothing to do with it. It was a rifle range. The witness has also stated that Kammler although there was practically no work to be done, did not want to discontinue this whole field of task. He made the request in the field of C-I, C-II-1 and C-II/2 because Kammler maintained the point of view that this was a work distribution plan which was to clarify Kammler's competence. However, it was not to be a plan of work to be carried out by the officers. Therefore, it was completely unimportant, just how much of this organizational chart was to continue with it. After the war, Kammler wanted to estend his Amtsgruppe-C. Therefore, he wanted to secure competence for himself. This organizational plan actually did not say anything about what work was to be carried out during the war. What actually happened could only be carried out by the witness himself, and he has expressed that.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, can you tell me one thing that this defendant did in Office C-II in connection with the war?
DR. MAYER: May I suggest, Your Honor, that you ask the witness that question so that he can repeat just what he had expressed yesterday in his own words?
THE PRESIDENT: I will take a chance. Answer the question, will you, Witness? Excluding things that had to do with postwar planning, what did you do in Office C-II that had to do with the war?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Your Honor, I have already described such tasks. I have stated that in the Department C-V I dealt with construction matters in preparing training centers for the Waffen-SS, etc. That is to say, I worked on the establishment of two troop training centers. That was a lot of work which took up a long time of work because this was procedure extremely complicated and therefore it took up
THE PRESIDENT: All right; go ahead. That's enough about that. What else did you do?
A The Department for the Establishment of Army Hospitals was a war assignment because here the basic planning for the tasks of army hospitals was dealt with and army hospitals from 150 to 300 to 400 --
THE PRESIDENT: All right. I know. I know. Army hospitals; that is the second. What else?
A Well, these were for the most part the things I dealt with during the war, your Honor. I have already stated that three main departments were actually unimportant and two main departments actually carried out the work -
THE PRESIDENT: I just wanted to know the ones that were important. I want to know all of the projects connected with the war which you had anything to do with. First, SS training centers, second army hospitals. Anything else?
A No, these were the main tasks, your Honor, however they were very large tasks.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you have anything to do with the erection or repair of any building in a concentration camp in any way?
A No, I never had anything to do with it. In this connection could I perhaps point out, Your Honor, that in the same chart which has just been referred to, that is, Document 12, page 8, in the construction work in the concentration camps had been listed under another office.
THE PRESIDENT: Who? Go ahead.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A It was office -- that was what I wanted to say, your Honor. That all construction in the concentration camps was dealt with by another office.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, which office?
A That was C-1.
THE PRESIDENT: That was Office C 1/2.
DR. MAYER: Yes.
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, the building of concentration camp buildings was in your Amtsgruppe, in Office C?
A The charts of the Ministerial level were concentrated in Office C-1.
THE PRESIDENT: That's in Kammler's Division -- under Kammler?
A Yes, it's in the Office Group which was directed by Kammler.
THE PRESIDENT: But not in the Office Group that you were attached to. It was the same Amtsgruppe but a different Amt?
A It was in the same Office Group but another office. Yes, that's correct.
THE PRESIDENT: So if crematoria or other buildings in the concentration camp were constructed it was done by Office C-1 including maintenance and repairs?
A I cannot answer this question, your Honor, because I did not have any knowledge of the existence of gas chambers.
THE PRESIDENT: I said if --- if any were built after the WVHA was organized the work was done by Office C-1.
A If at the top level this task had to be dealt with then the Office C-1 would have been competent. However, I personally am unable to say whether actually these tasks were handled there.
THE PRESIDENT: I know you weren't in C-1 so you didn't see the plans being made but that's where the work fed into the organization, isn't it? In C-1?
A Whether crematoria and death chambers were the task of C-1 Court No. II, Case No. 4.I am unable to say, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, construction in concentration camps was under C-1, wasn't it?
A Construction in the concentration camps? Yes, they were dealt with by C-1.
THE PRESIDENT: Also prisoner-of-war camps?
A I was surprised that prisoner-of-war camps were listed at all in the organizational work plan. As far as I know until the end of the war the Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht was competent in these matters. I only heard in the course of this trial and have seen from the prosecution's documents that towards the end of 1944 the competence was transferred or had been transferred to the Chief of the Reserve Army Heinrich Himmler.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, I want to make this absolutely certain; any building, either original construction, extension or maintenance in the construction of concentration camps came within the competence of Office C-1?
A No, your Honor. That's not correct. The repair work and construction work up to a certain size and extent were never dealt with by the top level agency but was the task of lower agencies. Up to 5,000 marks was the task of the Central Construction Management and up to 100,000 marks it was the task of the Construction Inspectorate.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you talking about concentration camps now?
A Yes, your Honor, I am talking about all of the work but all of the work that was carried out in the concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, back of the Construction Inspectorate was Amt C-5, was it not?
A Yes, the Central Construction Inspectorate and its Agency C-5-. That's correct.
BY THE PRESIDENT: All rights is that all construction work and all maintenance somewhere within the scope of Amt C?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
AA certain size and extent; where it was more than 100,000 marks it was an individual case.
Q Well, including in the work which came within the scope of Office C was all of the construction work in the concentration camps?
A I don't know how I should answer the question, your Honor.
Q Just answer it by telling me the truth.
A Yes, I am only telling the truth here. I wanted to say was perhaps the translation was not correct here and you did not understand it correctly.
Q Well, I will state the question again; all construction or maintenance work in concentration camps came within the competence of Office C?
A No, your Honor, the repair work and maintenance work were small construction enterprises which were not dealt with by C but which were dealt with the lower construction agencies independently, completely independently.
Q You mean under 100,000 marks?
A Under 100,000 marks the Construction Inspectorate and under 5,000 marks it was the Central Construction Management.
Q Well, all right. Over 100,000 marks what I said was true?
A Over 100,000 marks the Amtsgruppe C was competent.
Q And between 5,000 and 100,000 marks the Construction Inspect orate was competent?
A The construction inspectorate, yes.
Q And the Construction Inspectorate was subordinate to Kammler was it not?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that completes the circle, now. Go ahead Well, we only have a couple of minutes. Would you like to start at the end of the recess?
DR. MAYER: Yes.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 25 June 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. MAYER: May I continue, Your Honors?
MAX KIEFER--Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. MAYER:
Q. Witness, this morning you explained that you did know of the existence of a special staff Kammler. However, you told us that you didn't know the measures and the tasks of that organization. Now, I'd like to ask you in conclusion, what did you know about the constrution brigades which Kammler used?
A. The term construction brigades I heard for the first time in 1942. At the time it was mentioned in connection with the labor assignment of inmates in order to eliminate damage caused by bombs in larger cities. When these construction brigades were established and how they were used I didn't know at the time. Then in 1944, towards the end of 1944, I heard of the so-called railroad construction brigade. That was in connection with the following thing. I had returned from a trip from A rolsen to Berlin, a trip which usually took a few hours by train. It took me three days at that time. When I reported back to the deputy of Kammler, I spoke with him about the heavy damage which I had seen on the way back, in the station of Kassel. It was on that occasion that Prof. Dr. Schleif told me that an agreement had been reached between the Reichsfuehrer Himmler and the railroads, or, rather, the German Traffic Ministry, that railroad construction brigades were to be established or had been established--I don't recall, in order to repair the damage caused to railroad tracks. I understood at the time that those railroad construction brigades were under the technical supervision of the railroad companies to be used to eliminate the bottleneck which had been caused two hundred thousand wagons and carriages to get stuck in the various stations all over Germany.
Those were the two occasions on which I heard about the construction brigades and railroad construction brigades; and that applies to the whole period of my activity.
Q. Witness, I shall show you a few documents. Now, take a look at Document 1292 in Document Book III, Exhibit 56, on Page 51 of the German and Page 46 of the English Book. It is a letter of Kammler's to Gluecks, dated the 10th of March 1942; and it deals with the assignment of prisoners of war, inmates, and Jews in order to carry out the construction program of the SS-WVHA, Amtsgruppe C; and that is in 1942, in the third economic year of the war. I should like to ask you, Witness, did you have any knowledge about that document at the time?
A. I don't recall having had that document in my hands. I can see on the second page that it says there, "to be circulated". It is quite possible that I saw it at the time. I probably read that; and as it actually didn't deal with my own task, I just passed it on. This document has the file note "C V", and, therefore, as for the field of work it is in no connection with my office, what so ever.
Q. As the next document I would like to show you, in Document Book 21, document number 2611, Exhibit 366, which is on Page 1 of the English and Page 1 of the German document book. It is a letter by Pohl to Himmler, dated 29 July 1944 concerning allocation of the first and fifth SS Construction Brigade. At the same time I want you to look at NO 2615 in the same document book, Exhibit 267, Page 3 of the English and Page 2 of the German book. This is an enclosure to the letter which I just mentioned. It is a report of Kammler of 29 July 1944 concerning the assignment of both the First and Fifth SS Construction Brigades when setting up defense positions and supply lines for the V-1 and V-2 in the West. Did you have any knowledge of these two documents?
A. No, these two documents were unknown to me. Both of them were stamped "military secret" or "secret" respectively, and they did not deal with my field of task. Therefore, I was not to be informed of them.
Q. As the last document in this connection, I want you to take a look at the document from Document book 6, which is document 2222 PS, Exhibit 178, Page 102 of the English and Page 90 of the German Document Book. It contains an affidavit by a certain George Peiper of 2 May 1945 and deals with the assignment of the Third SS Construction Brigade.
The affidavit in the German contains five pages, and unfortunately, in the English Document Book, Your Honor, you have only the first page. I have already asked the Prosecution to have the second page also translated. However, I do not know whether the Tribunal has the second page.
MR. ROBBINS: I understood from co-counsel that this document we would be reached about the recess time, and I have made arrangements to have it brought up about that time.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I think we have it.
MR. ROBBINS: You have the complete document?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: 2222-PS.
MR. ROBBINS: I believe that not all of that affidavit was translated.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: We have two full pages and the signature. No, wait a minute - five pages.
MR. ROBBINS: Counsel advised me that there was one page missing, and I have had it checked on, and I understand that there is a page missing in the English text, and I turned it over to the Translation Department, but it has not been returned to me yet.
THE PRESIDENT: Document 2615, the one you just spoke about a moment ago in Book 21, consists of two letters.
DR. MAYER: I did not quite get that. Would you mind repeating that a little bit louder?
THE PRESIDENT: In Document Book 21 there were two exhibits that you just referred to, the first a letter from Pohl, and next, Document 2615 -
DR. MAYER: No, I am talking about Document Book 11 .
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I know, but a few minutes ago you were talking about this. The writer of the letter, 2615 , does not appear. Do you know who it was --- "SS Gruppenfuehrer and General Lieutenant of the Waffen SS" -
MR. ROBBINS: Kammler, Your Honor.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q. Witness, did you look at this document, 2222-PS, which is on Page 102 of the English and Page 90 of the German book? On the second page of that affidavit by George Pieper it says: "The head of the SS Construction Brigade was Sturmbannfuehrer Weigel, Berlin, Belitzhof, Nikolasee, Post Wannsee." I ask you now, witness, whether you knew that man. Did you know his task and his headquarters at that time?
A. Sturmbannfuehrer Weigel and his task were both unknown to me.
I can see from this affidavit , however, that the headquarters of the Construction Brigade was outside Berlin, because Nikolasee was a distance of approximately 20 kilometers from Berlin. Therefore, I would like to state that we knew nothing about the assignment, about the SS Construction Brigade and their duties, at least so far as I am concerned. We did not hear too much about it.
Q. As you yourself and the Office C-II had nothing to do with the construction and with the assignment of inmates , I would like to ask you what your idea at the time about the assignment of inmates was. What was your idea at the time?
A. If I am to tell you that today, it is not very simple for me to reconstruct that because in the course of the last two years, that is during the time of my internment, I got quite a number of new impressions. Generally speaking, it was thus, however: I knew that inmates were used for labor, and I did not see anything unusual about it during the war because everybody in the civilian population and every individual as such was expected to do a lot of work in all the branches of industry and the economy. That referred to every one of them, so long as they could work, including women up to 55 years of age, and most of the time it was done on a conscription basis. That was a compulsory measure, too.
The terms under which these inmates were used as labor, I really did not know, because during my entire activity I did not have any connection with construction sites or labor assignment sites.
I should like to add that, apart from the humanitarian point of view, it would have appeared devoid of sense to me that these laborers, who were badly needed by the Reich to take care of all those war asks, be destroyed, murdered, by starvation and bad treatment. Even today this seems to me to be something absolutely inconsistent. The agreement to have such a thing carried out is absolutely incomprehensible to a normal human being.
That is the reason why, ever since the beginning of this trial, I have asked myself the question repeatedly, what measures should I personally have taken if I was to have come into contact with the labor assignment question because of my official capacity? And then, if I had had knowledge of all those things because of my official position, the question of whether I could have changed those horrible things.
After having examined the question in my mind several times, I would like to add that I personally would not have been able to change any of those things.
I then asked myself the following question again: What would have been the consequences for me if I had noticed that I could not have changed anything? The answer to that, I guess, would be that I would have had to resign.
But, by examining those possibilities, I can see that during the war it would have been absolutely impossible for me to do that, because I was too old to be used at the front line, and my request to resign probably would not have been approved, and I could not just simply walk out and leave my job. I was bound to stay on that job by a military order, and I had to carry it out.
I know that those questions are theoretical ones, for I did not have anything to do with labor assignment in my official position, but in spite of that, I would like to leave it to the decision of this Tribunal if every one of us can possibly be expected to quit both freedom and life, so to say, by doing something which would not have helped anything.
I must admit that frankly today, this seems to me a dilemma which appears insoluble to me.
During my activity, I assumed -- and I had to assume -- that those inmates who were being used for labor assignments were Germans, that they were Germans who had been gathered together in internment camps for political reasons.
It really did not occur to me that any foreigners might be interned there, because the official reports in the press told us that all the foreign labor had come to Germany voluntarily and that they were not interned in either concentration camps or internment camps. One could see them walking around freely out in the street, with the special insignia, which were marks of distinction for them, to see who was from which nation. As far as the arrest of foreign workers is concerned, I really did not hear anything at the time.
Q. Didn't Kammler ever tell you anything about his special tasks when you were together?
A. No. I already said before that I would be with Kammler very seldom, and I really have to say that those conferences, were more or less short because Kammler was always very busy. It was impossible to discuss things with him in detail as far as his special tasks were concerned. These special staffs and other things which were outside of the limits of the WVHA or his construction brigades he never told me anything about.
Q. Can you describe to us Kammler's personality in brief terms?
A. I'll try to be brief. Dr. Kammler has been described here on the witness stand as a man who was of an unusual intelligence, who had a vast technical knowledge. He was very ambitious. I would like to add at the same time that his talent to organize things was as unusual; Kammler in all his dispositions was very far-reaching. What I mean by that is he aimed his guns as far forward as he could. Already in 1943 I had gained the impression from him that unfortunately he lost his limits because at that time he already started taking over tasks which had absolutely nothing to do with his own task as chief of a construction administration, and according to my opinion his position as Chief of Special Construction of the Waffen-SS was nothing but a springboard for him which would enable him to jump higher. Fighter staff, corps staff, the use of "V" weapons and all that, they were coming steps, and according to my opinion I don't believe that would have been the last step if he would have been able to get his plans and ideas through.
Dr. Kammler was very ruthless against himself as far as working was concerned, and he was also just as ruthless against the others.
I would like to quote an example here. It was nothing unusual really, that an expert who worked there for twelve hours, which was our regular working time, would be ordered to go and report to Kammler in the evening, and would have to wait in the anteroom for many hours until he would be admitted into his office, and also that reports like this lasted until dawn. Where the actual conference took only five minutes.
The relationship between Dr. Kammler and his collaborators in Amtsgruppe C was not good. I personally have noticed that there was the tendency to have those who knew their job and were not dependable on money, released at the end of the war. During the war there was no possibility to do so. That was the reason why that bad relationship at that time actually did not show its effects.
Q. Are you through?
A. Yes, quite.
Q. Good. Now, let's turn to something else. Witness, take a look at Document Book No. 4, and take Document No. 1244, which is Exhibit 96, on Page 54 of the English and 67 of the German, and in this document the Chief of Amtsgruppe C for "Charlie" ordered on the 6th of September, 1943, in a circular letter, that you were to deputize him until further orders. However, this document here states too that you were sick at the time, and that therefore a man named Praler was to deputize you actually. I would like to ask you, Witness, when was it that you were sick at the time, and how long were you sick?
A. In August 1943 I suffered of a horrible erysipelas. But I believe the kind of disease is irrelevant here. However, I went to a Berlin X-ray institute in order to get my treatments there.
That disease lasted until the end of September or early in October. I couldn't tell you for sure.
DR. MAYER: I would like to point out that in the English translation of this deputization there is a misunderstanding or at least the translation is wrong here somewhere. The German reads: "AS 33-Sturmbannfuehrer Kiefer is sick at the present moment, SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Praler will take over," that means that Praler will deputize Kammler instead of Kiefer. In the English translation one could understand it to mean that Praler would take over the deputization of Kiefer who was sick. That is not the sense in the German.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the name of the man?
DR. MAYER: The name is Praler, Your Honor, P-r-a-l-e-r-, P-r-a-l-e-r-.
BY DR. MAYER: Witness, did you at any time take over the job of this man Praler as Kammler's deputy?
A. No, I didn't even meet him at the time.
Q. What did you do after returning back to your office after you got out of the hospital?
A. When I returned to my job I found this order, I inquired with the adjutant's office what I had to do, and I was told that Kammler went on leave for three weeks, since the 6th of September, and that generally speaking nothing was to be done about it because Dr. Kammler had, or would like to continue the job himself, and he wanted to take care matters himself personally.
Q. I would like to refer your attention to the last paragraph of the document in particular. Can you tell us now come that in spite of the fact that there was a deputy, all mail matters, and the preparing of papers for submission to Kammler were handled by another person, namely be a certain Mr. Lubenheimer.
L-u-b-e-n-h-e-i-m-e-r?
A. Well, because Kammler, just as usual, when he left Berlin, he had a courier service for his mail. That courier service was to bring him the mail twice or thrice a week, including the various folders containing documents to be signed of the various offices. Lubenheimer had the task, as can be clearly seen from this document, to send both the mail and the folders with the letters to be signed to Dr. Kammler. However, that was the only change that actually occurred with reference to the normal business correspondence. That is how the word "basically" in combination with the term "deputization" should be understood. It means that a deputy was nominated formally, but that practically the job continued just as usual.
Q. Can you tell us why such an order of deputization for Kammler came about?
A. Yes. There was a general order that every head of an agency, due to the possibility of loss of life through enemy activity, would have to nominate a deputy. And that was done.
Q. How was it that Kammler selected you for this position?
A. At the time I believe that I was a senior on the list of ranks of Amtsgruppe C, because Standartenfuehrer Eirenschmalz, one of the defendants here, since the middle of 1943 had become sick, and he was not working at the time.
Q. Now, witness, would you take a look at Exhibit 38, Document Book II which is Document No. III, which is on page 59 of the English Document Book. That is a photostatic copy of the organizational chart of the WVHA, dated the 3rd of March, 1942. You will find there under the name of Chief of Amtsgruppe, Kammler the name of SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Busching, B-u-s-c-h-i-n-g, as deputy, whose name is stricken out, and then it says there beside SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Schleif, S-c-h-l-e-i-f. Now how long was Busching Kammler's deputy, and from what date on was Schleif his deputy?
Q. Busching was Kammler's deputy to the end of 1942, and Professor Schleif was deputy from October or November, 1943, until the end.
Q. Did Busching or Schleif have any further tasks in Amtsgruppe C?
A. Busching at the same time was the personnel expert with Kammler, and Schleif was just the deputy and nothing else.
Q. Did you at any time carry out any functions while deputizing Kammler?
A. No.
DR. MAYER: I just heard that the Defendant Kiefer's disease was mustranslated before. The Defendant Keife3r spoke of a guertelrose. I would just like to have the name rectified in order not to create a wrong picture. Guertelrose is the name.
BY DR. MAYER: Now, coming back to the last subject, Witness, were you also a member of the General SS?
A. Yes, since the 2nd of July, 1935.
Q. What was it that actually compelled you to join the SS?
A. You can only understand that problem if you know the general situation in 1935, and particularly if you know the peculiar circumstances of my profession. On the basis of my long experience I knew that in my particular field the jobs would not come to us, but that we would have to go out and fish for them, so to say. That was the reason why I actually was dependent on having connections with certain circles, more so than any other man in any other profession, circles which were interested in construction, in dwelling construction and home construction, etc.
In 1935 the main part of various orders started going into the incorporations, which were the basis of the new regime; and when observing the whole thing with a critical eye I told myself that it would be very opportune to be able to find a connection somewhere in order not to be out of a job as an architect some day. I would like to say that first of all I started trying to get a job with the German Labor Front. That, however, I did not find there, the necessary prerequisites which would help a free architect carry out his work, because there was more of a monopoly, if you want to put it that way, in there.
A little while after that, a colleague of mine and another comrade of mine who was a veteran from the last war told me that organization, the Allgemeine SS could possibly be interested in this matter because it is a principle of the General SS to have families and to take care of their families. And due to the bad living conditions at the time where there was actually a lack of one and a half million flats, it was absolutely logical, I thought, that the necessary measures would have to be taken to billet those families, since one of the principles of the SS was to care for their families. And then, as I was told that the SS was a circle of men with integrity and good character, good records, I believed that I would find my own principles corroborated in those circles: that I would also get the necessary professional promotions which I was seeking.
That was the reason why I joined the General SS. On the 2nd of July, 1935 I was accepted, with the rank of a Hauptsturmfuehrer.
Q What were your ideas at the time about the aims of that organization?
A My opinion about the aims of that organization was just described by me now when I said that I regarded the SS as a conglomeration of men with good backgrounds -
JUDGE MUSMANNO: If you have already stated it once, I don't see the necessity of repeating it.
DR. MAYER: Yes, Your Honor.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q After you joined the SS, were you in close contact and in steady contact with the SS? Or how was it that your relationship turned out to be with the SS?
A My contact with the General SS was rather loose because I was kept so busy in the Reich Air Ministry that I couldn't possibly deal with anything else in a closer way. In all those years I believe that I participated in three or four gatherings of comrades in the House of Fliers in Berlin. That was all. Never at any time did I have a position in the General SS, nor did I serve there. And, particularly, I didn't act there in any way, neither in a part-time, nor in a full-time job.
Q According to your opinion, and according to your knowledge, do you think that the aims of the General SS changed in the course of the years?
A No; until the outbreak of the war I saw no reason why I should have changed my mind because again and again I saw the SS members and I met SS leaders together with representatives of foreign countries in certain gatherings and receptions in Berlin. The last time I saw that was in April, 1939, when there was this big parade in Charlottenburg. I was sitting there right opposite the podium where the Reich Government was, and I could see everything that was going on on the Reich side. During the war the General SS was actually removed from official life and from the cities. The SS was out in the field, As far as the SS had been drafted into the air force, navy and army, the members actually resigned from the SS, according to the regulations, and only the members who were with the Waffen SS units were still carried op their list as SS members. The General SS, during the war, had become absolutely unimportant, and even in that case there was no reason for me to actually change my opinion.
Q Your membership in the General SS - did it have any influence on the fact that you were drafted into the Waffen-SS?