Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q I believe that we can leave it up to the defendant Scheide to go into more details about that office. All we have to do now is to touch upon those questions briefly which refer to Office B, which, however, are not contained in the competencies which we discussed of further office. Were there any other offices which come under Group B which actually comprised several offices and which were subordinated to you?
A Yes. Early in 1943, the so-called Examination Staff was established. That Examination Staff was directly subordinated to me and had as its task to inspect all the warehouses which were within Amtsgruppe B. For instance, the clothing warehouses, the food warehouses, and the lodgement camps. We had to examine them in their technical respect. Auditing work was not carried out by that staff. The only thing they did was to carry out the technical supervision or examination of that with respect to abiding camp regulations, and also examining as to how long a person would remain in that camp. The main task was the examination of air raid shelters, and that is about all, in brief.
THE PRESIDENT: There is some confusion, Dr. Haensel, about the discontinuance of one of these offices. Was it B IV that was discontinued?
DR. HAENSEL: B IV only existed from '42 to '44, the task of procuring raw materials, etc., etc. It was then eliminated. That is the office which is not referred to on Rauschenbach's chart, you see.
THE PRESIDENT: Then B IV was transportation under Scheide?
DR. HAENSEL: Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I understood you to say that B IV was organized in 1942 and stayed in existence until January the first, 1944, when it was found out that the office was no longer needed, and then after January the first, 1944, there was no more B IV, but there was Court No. II, Case No. 4.a B V which was transportation under the direction of Scheide?
DR. HAENSEL: Yes, indeed, Your Honor. I will continue.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q In your connection and on your basis as Chief of Amts Group B, did you have any functions outside of those contained in the chart? I believe you told us that, for instance, you were a member of the Clothing Commission, etc. What kind of an organization was that? What office did you have there?
A Early in 1944, General Ziegler received an order from Hitler to carry out special construction work which was aimed at the simplification of the installations of all branches, the army, navy, OT, SS, Luftwaffe. That was the reason why General Ziegler set up certain commissions for the various fields. I was a member of both the commissions for clothing and for food, and I retained that task up to 1944, that is, the fall of '44.
Q What was the connection between the Amtsgruppen or office groups? In the indictment it states that you, with reference to the job, aims and functions, were closely connected with each other. Who did you collaborate with in other offices in your capacity as chief of Amtsgruppe B?
A That close relationship didn't exist in reality. A collaboration as contained in the indictment did not take place. Of course, I did have conferences with one or other Amtsgruppe Chiefs in that once in awhile. However, this did not deal with special tasks, but only with questions of general natures. How good this connection was and how very little one Amtsgruppe knew about the other one can be clearly seen by the statements of Amtsgruppe A in their affidavits. And that with respect to my task in the field of food one can easily see from that that they didn't know too much about Amtsgruppe B and vice versa.
Q In order to gain sight into all those things, I would appreciate it if you would tell me how many people you had under your Court No. II, Case No. 4.Amtsgruppe B?
A Defending on the various periods of time, it varied. Towards the end of 1942, the personnel of the Amts was 250 to 300 people. Toward the end of 1944 we had possibly 50 to 60 people. This rigorous personnel cut shows very clearly how everyone of the members of the Amtsgruppe was overloaded with work; and the task of Amtsgruppe B did not decrease with the continuation of the war, but rather they increased. In other words, what in 1942 was done with 250 people had to be done in 1944 with 60 people.
Q What was the experience, what were the backgrounds of the people who had the -
A The active members had gone through the leadership school and the administrative school, whereas the reservists, all the people in the reserve, which really was the largest percentage in the office, came from all sorts of professions.
Q You just told us that you were a member of a commission for the simplification of the army administration. Do you think it possible that this entire Amtsgruppe could have been connected with an army Amtsgruppe without any difficulties resulting from that merger?
A Of course, it would have been possible, and the proposals of the commission also suggested that, that all persons dealing with clothing were to be dealt with for all the Wehrmacht branches in one city office, and the same was to apply to the food groups and others.
Q Were you always paid from the money of the Reich just like all the others?
A Of course.
Q Your official relationship to your subordinates was a military subordination?
A Yes.
Q Was there any personal feeling in it?
A Well, I gladly listened to the suggestions made by my subordinates, and I several times directed by decisions according to their Court No. II, Case No. 4 suggestion.
Q. Did Pohl let himself be -- did you make any suggestions to Pohl?
A. No, he wouldn't let me make suggestions.
Q. Did you speak to Himmler alone repeatedly?
A. Alone, never. I went to see Himmler three or four times together with Pohl.
Q. Did you have a personal relationship to Himmler?
A. No, that was not possible.
Q. Did you have anything to do with Amtsgruppe D which was included into the WVHA? Was there any change in Amtsgruppe B?
A. Nothing changed there.
Q. Did you have official contacts with other administrations within the SS organizations and outside of the WVHA?
A. Yes, of course. I had particularly close contacts with Office IV, Operational Main Office, because we were responsible for the clothing and the procurement of tools and equipment for the Waffen SS. This contact was closer than the one we had with D/4 because we didn't have to provide the food for D.
Q. Now, an individual question, witness. As office group B, did you have anything to do with the change of the Ghetto of Litzmannstadt to a concentration camp which was mentioned by the prosecution?
A. Neither I nor Amtsruppe B had anything to do with that.
Q. However, you did gain knowledge of that, didn't you? I mean, of the fact that a change did occur?
A. Well, the only way I received knowledge of this is when I received a letter.
Q. This letter that you just mentioned is Document 19, page 44 of the German text. That is NO 519, Exhibit 490, that is the document which consists of the various individual letters. If I can ask you a few questions in order to clarify the importance of that. Please compare the three letters dated 16 February to Gauleiter Greiser, the fol Court No. II, Case No. 4.lowing one dated 17 February to Obersturmbannfuehrer Brandt, and the following one dated 17 of February to Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
All three letters come from Pohl and all of them contain the information that the Ghetto of Litzmannstadt no longer interests the WVHA. The first of these letters, dated 16 February 1944, contains a notation that "due to the participation of our French wine contingent, I shall write to you under separate cover. Signed Pohl." Would you tell us, Loerner, which one of the three letters actually reached you and under what circumstances?
A From the remarks below it can be seen that I received the letter which you just quoted. All the other letters I never saw. This letter here was not sent to me because of the question of the Ghetto Litzmannstadt, but rather, because of that particular paragraph which you just quoted concerning the wine. It deals with a shipment of wine which was placed at Himmler's disposal by the French Government. Before we had received that shipment, Himmler had distributed it to the various other groups and agencies, and among them was Greiser also. I received that letter. The wine was never delivered because the invasion came in between.
Q Now, the last document in this complex is in Document Book 7, 920, Exhibit 203, Page 40, No 920. This is the document wherein Georg Loerner is confused with his brother in the financing of the army research installations. This confusion has already been stated in the case of the defendant Hans Loerner. All that I want to do now is ask you if you ever had anything to do with the financing of the Ahnenerbe or of the Army Scientific Research Institute or of the experimental research work. Did you ever have anything to do with it?
A No, as Chief of Amtsgruppe B, I never did have anything to do, and as such I did not have to deal with financial questions. I never spoke to either Sievers or any of his representatives.
Q Thus we can conclude Amtsgruppe B, and we can turn our attention to your activity in the economic field. We have two groups of problems that we have to treat right now. First of all is your position as second manager of the DWB and as a representative of Amtsgruppe B, Court No. II, Case No. 4.which is a result of your first positions.
Then the second group deals with your official position in some of the economic enterprises. Therefore, let us first turn to DWB. What does that mean?
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Just before you go into that please, I would like to ask the witness a question or two. Witness, I understand you, when you were talking about clothing that you furnished for the inmates of the concentration camps, to testify that you had a conversation with the defendant Pohl in regard to this clothing, especially as to the insufficiency of it at the time you were talking to him, and asked his advice about what to do to remedy the situation. Is that correct?
A What I discussed in those individual discussion I can not tell you today. Most of the time the things worked out this way: I reported to Pohl in those conferences about the situation in clothing of the inmates, and the same applied to the clothing for the army, and I also informed him of the difficulties. I also informed him of what I intended to do and if he thought that was correct and if he agreed to that, and he always agreed to it and gave his approval to almost anything that I originated.
Q That is what I wanted to ask you: What he said in reply when you would come to him about the difficulties regarding clothing for the inmates. What, if anything, would he say to you in reply?
A You mean what Pohl answered me?
Q Yes.
A Well, he asked me if I knew any way in which to get further raw materials from the Reich Economy Ministry. I told him that we had done everything we could, and then I usually suggested a report to the Reichsfuehrer about those difficulties. Pohl agreed, and he told me to draw up those reports and to complete them. I submitted those reports to him, and he signed them and sent them on to the Reich Leadership.
Q He agreed with your suggestions as a rule and left it rather Court No. II, Case No. 4.to your discretion as to what to do?
A Yes, indeed.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q We were just talking about the DWB. How did you participate in the establishment of the DWB? Were you ordered to establish a DWB, or how was it?
A In May 1940 I was called to see Pohl, who told me that it was necessary to create a holding company for the various economic enterprises. As the GMBH law prescribes that at least two people belonging to the company are necessary in order to establish the GMBH, he had nominated me as second manager in charge, he was to bring along a capital of RM 100,000 and that I had to bring along RM 10,000. He told me that immediately after the establishment I would have to re-transfer the capital to him so that he alone would be the manager in charge. In other words, he gave RM 100,000-or RM 90,000, and I gave 10,000--a total of RM 100,000. This was an order and I carried it out.
Q That particular item of RM 10,000 which you took over, did you pay that?
A No, I did not. I just acted as trustee, and I never did see the money.
Q Apart from the word "trustee", we have a different name.
A You mean "dummy".
Q Did you have any views or any results in that particular participation?
A No.
Q Later on-- And when was it actually that you formally became the second manager in charge?
A That was in July 1941 when I became second manager in charge. After the establishment and after I had transferred my part to Pohl immediately after the establishment, I did not have anything to do with the DWB.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did you ever consider why Pohl actually needed a second manager in charge? After all, he was the only one who had the right of signature.
A I never did have any misgivings about that, and Pohl himself told me what the reasons were. He told me that the whole thing was a formal matter and that only in a particular case, if he should have an accident and no longer be able to manage the concern--that that was the only reason he wanted to have a man who was to manage the business until Himmler would designate a new representative.
Q If that particular case had really occurred--that is to say, if Pohl had an accident or something--you would have become the first manager of the DWB?
A I don't think that, because I do not believe that the Reichsfuehrer would have assigned me to that task.
Q Did you ever hear any statements from Pohl about the future plans which the enterprises had and his own future plans, as far as the enterprises after the war were concerned?
A Yes. He wanted to withdraw those economic enterprises from the WVHA and take over. He told me at the time that he would then leave the administration of the army to Frank and me and that he would deal only with economic questions.
Q I imagine that that was a large plan of Pohl's--to become a manager of a concern after the war?
A Yes.
Q Was that your idea also? That is, to join the private economy?
A No, I never had that intention. If so, I wanted to withdraw from the active service and take up gardening somewhere.
Q Do you believe that Pohl would have been especially qualified to be in charge of such an economic concern, or do you think that he actually overestimated himself?
A I could not tell you that because I don't know his real Court No. II, Case No. 4.activity in that field too well.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q The economic enterprises were never really taken out of the WVHA, were they?
A No, and I did not assert that either.
Q No, but I understood you to say that Pohl's reason for the holding company was to take them out of the WVHA.
A No, I did not say that.
Q Well, the translation must have been wrong then. What did you say about that?
A I said that Pohl had told me that it was necessary to form a holding company to comprise all of the economic enterprises, in order to consolidate the economic enterprises.
Q It was not for the purpose of getting the economic enterprises out of and away from the WVHA?
A No.
Q All right.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Maybe we can continue from here on, Mr. Loerner. What actually were the tasks of the DWB; I mean of the consolidation which you just mentioned? Why was this consolidation carried out? Don't you think of tax problems?
A The main task of the DWB was to carry out the management of all the economic enterprises; that is to say, from a tax point of view and from an economic point of view.
Q Do you think that labor assignment was also included in that?
A No, that was never attached to the DWB.
Q Who was to supervise labor assignment in the economic enterprises, in the "W" enterprises, as the German term goes?
A Pohl was the one who actually was in charge of the labor as far as the last decisions were concerned.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q We have heard repeatedly of Staff W. Did you ever have anything to do with that Staff W?
A No.
Q With the establishment of the WVHA early in 1942, did anything change in your position as second manager in charge of the DWB?
A No, nothing changed.
Q However, this establishment of the WVHA also led to the establishment of Office Group W, didn't it?
A Yes.
Q What was the sense of this Amtsgruppe W? What was the sense of this organization, when there was a DWB?
A Well, you see, it is rather a difficult question, which I couldn't answer. It was Pohl's idea exclusively, namely, to give, so to say, a military touch to those enterprises, so that they could match with the other agencies. That was rather unusual, and they really did not fit within their framework and did not get accustomed to their new frame.
Q There is a famous story by Anderson where you have some sort of a pressing iron, which is probably a steam container, and that iron wants to be a steam kettle, and it actually exploded.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. I don't want to miss any of this, and I did. Will you translate again, please?
DR. HAENSEL: Andersen was a famous writer and wrote various stories which are of humane importance. He wrote a story of a pressing iron, you. see, and that pressing iron is dreaming it would like to be a steam kettle, you see, and it is only a very small pressing iron. It swells and swells until it bursts.
THE PRESIDENT: It bursts from trying to be a kettle?
DR. HAENSEL: Yes, quite so, and that is how I feel when all these enterprises are blown up into one big, huge concern, which of course could be classed as a pressing iron. That is the reason I tried to ask the witness what he really understood under Amt W, Amt W over Court No. II, Case No. 4.DW, and he did not succeed in telling me what the score was.
Maybe he will do so a little later on.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is Hans Christian Andersen you refer to?
DR. HAENSEL: Yes.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Pohl himself took over Amtsgruppe W as Chief. Why did he do that? Do you know anything about it?
A No one but Pohl could possibly take over as Chief of that office. After all, he was the one who wanted to become the Chief, so nobody else could become the chief.
Q Yes, but didn't he nominate you as Deputy Chief of Amtsgruppe W?
A Yes, of course, because every little organization had to have a deputy. He made me deputy of W, as he made me the second manager of DWB.
Q Did he actually give you an exact order as to what you had to do as the second man in command?
A The order was very short, and he told me that I had nothing to do with the whole affair. He told me that he himself would be in charge of Amtsgruppe W.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q When were you made deputy? At what date were you made deputy to Pohl in Staff W?
A I never was his deputy in Staff W. You mean Amtsgruppe W.
Q Amtsgruppe W.
A That was when it was established on 1 February 1942.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Can you tell us in one sentence the difference between Staff W and Office--Amtsgruppe--W?
A Office Group W was the consolidation of the entire economic enterprises, and Staff W was Pohl's instrument by which he led the DWB.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did you ever receive any additional new tasks, apart from your position as second manager in the DWB, and if you did have any additional task, did it result in your becoming Pohl's deputy in the administration of Amtsgruppe W?
A No, in no way.
Q Did anything change in your position with reference to the economic enterprises?
A No.
Q Who was it that gave the orders, the competent orders to Amtsgruppe W in the DWG?
A I have stated before that Pohl reserved to himself the right to be in charge of Amtsgruppe B and of DWB. He was the only man in charge.
Q Now I turn to Prosecution Document Book No. 14 on page 118 of the German; it is on page 136 of the English Document Book, NO-1048. Document Book 14, page 136, way down at the end. This is an order of Pohl's dated the 8th of December, 1942, to the chief of offices in the WVHA, and I ask you now what were the contents and the results of that order.
A First of all I have to correct you. The order was not for the offices of the WVHA, but only to the chiefs of offices of Amtsgruppe May I read the contents?
A Yes, if you just state it in once sentence.
A Pohl ordered that the W enterprises submit reports of considerable importance to me as his deputy. Where this order originated I don't know; however, I assume that Pohl for the first time saw that he should use me some time, and the reason he signed that order was that he was feeling good. That order, however, was of very short duration. After approximately fourteen days the order was officially cancelled, as Pohl himself told you during the examination he did not want the chiefs of office to discuss matters with me first before they came to see him rather. That was the reason why he cancelled this order after its short duration, and that officially prohibited chiefs of office from coming to see me.
Q I would like to introduce a few affidavits about the cancellation of that order as soon as they have all been translated. I shall like to enter on the second parts of your economic activities. Did you handle any legal connections with this to avoid, to keep economic enterprises from the SS complex, and, if so, what kind and what nature were they? I mean by that the formal participation in establishments, membership in supervisory boards, etc.
A Yes, I did participate in such participations. When I came to Nuernberg I really didn't know in what establishments I really participated. However, I understood from the documents that I participated in the Gemeinnuetzige, and I think I was in the Wohnungs-und-HeimstaettenGMBH; I think I was in the supervisory board there; and that I participated in the establishment of a company for textiles and leatherutilization; and also that I participated in the establishment of an iron and steel organization; that I was also a member of the supervisory board of the OSTI; and that it could also be possible that I participated in the establishment of several other agencies.
However, I can't recall any of them specifically.
Q With reference to the Gemeinnuetzige Wohnungs und Heimstaetten which you just mentioned, it is dealt with in document Book 14, page 104 of the German and page 115 of the English document book, Exhibit 402. Georg Loerner is mentioned on page 1 of this document, and in the last sentence before Roman numeral 11 it says that Dr. Salpeter dismissed and G. Loerner was appointed a member of the supervisory board in his place. Did you participate -- did you actually hold office, and did you take real decisions with reference to the administrator of this Heimstaetten OSTI, GMBH?
A No, I didn't. If I actually really signed along with many others for important decisions, I couldn't tell you today.
Q The Heimstaetten GMBH and OSTI was mentioned here. Now, with reference to this OSTI there was a document introduced and which is contained in Document Book 19, NO-1270; it is on page 7 of the German book; it is entitled questions concerning the establishment of the OSTI.
It is in Document Book 19; do you have it?
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document number?
DR. HAENSEL: Document NO-1270.
according to that, you are supposed to have participated in the establishment of the OSTI. Would you tell us now about the establishment of the OSTI, what it was like and how it originated.
A. This file note describes one of the conferences with Pohl which dealt with the final preparations for the establishment of the OSTI. Horn, who participated, was designated to be one of the business managers, wanted to got the necessary regulations, decrees and directives from Pohl. But when he started reading his questionnaire which contained this document, Pohl briskly interrupted him and told him those questions could not possibly be dealt with from the conference table, and that he didn't know why business managers should exist; if they wanted to have information, from him. The whole matter was up to the business managers who first of all had to convince themselves of the situation of the spot, and only then if they didn't know what to do they should come and see him. That is how this entire conference was finished. The questions described here, one, two and three, were not discussed. Also, the questionnaire I saw first time in Nurnberg I didn't notice at the meeting, nor did I notice it after the meeting. The conference lasted for approximately ten minutes, and apart from that, may I add that this document is not signed in the original -- it was only signed by the typewriter. 2984
Q. Do you think that the questionnaire was sent to you together with the invitation for the conference?
A. I do not think it was very formal, a conference like that; that is, it was carried out in a most informal matter. I would receive a phone call, that is the way it worked out every time -- that I hop over because there was a conference; that wasn't an invitation. As I said before, I did not see the questionnaire before, during or after the meeting -- nor did I read it.
Q. How is it that you actually participated in the OSTI -- what were you -- were you business manager there?
A. No, I was on the supervisory board, and also member of the OSTI. I participated in the management of the administration of the OSTI; more than in the administration of any other economic enterprises. My participation in the OSTI was the participation in two to three conferences, and giving my signature to two or three notary documents; that was my participation in the OSTI.
Q. This morning we referred to Document NO-490, rather Prosecution Exhibit 490, and contained in Document Book 19, on page 44. It deals with the change of Ghetto of Litzmannstadt to a concentration camp. Do you know as a fact that the OSTI, in connection with this change, was brought into connection with this change, or did you hear about it for the first time from this document?
A. I already stated before, this morning, that I didn't know anything about the change of Litzmannstadt to a concentration camp, or did I know that the OSTI had any connection at all with that, and I only heard about this thing in Nurnberg, and saw it in the documents.
Q. Did you visit any of the enterprises?
A. No, at no time did I ever visit any of the enterprises
Q. Did you know what the W enterprises were, and what kind of enterprises those were?
A. Of course I know that the OSTI enterprises -and by that I mean enterprises which dealt with armament matters of various kinds. What those enterprises were like I didn't know really.
Q. Do you know where they where located?
A. I don't know that either.
Q. The Prosecution introduced a further document which is contained in Document Book 19, on page 37, NO-9
THE PRESIDENT: Suggest that you continue with that document after the recess, Dr. Haensel.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Before the recess we stopped with our pressing iron in the shape of the OSTI. I would like to put to you Document Book 19, on page 37, Document NO-063. You have that document?
A Yes.
Q This is a list of the orders in hand of the OSTI. I would like to ask you what can you tell us about the orders in hand there as far as far as your own enterprises were concerned?
A First of all I would like to say about this document that. I only saw it here for the first time, and never saw it before. From the list of orders in hand it is interesting to note that this enterprise did not supply the SS at all, or at least only to a very small degree, with the exception of the peat coke for the Waffen-SS and a small order of brushes for the main warehouse, all other orders were directed to other branches of the armed forces. Particularly as far as textiles and furs are concerned, none of them, for instance, come from the clothing factory, which would be the natural thing. They are simply orders from the OKH and the Army Supply Office and Army Clothing Offices, from which it can be seen that we of Office Group B did not give orders to these firms, because all my colleagues, including myself, were disinclined to have dealings with the Globocnik enterprises, as we called them. I have nothing else to say about this document.
Q In document book 19, there is a document on page 65 and this is No. 1271. It is an auditing report by a man called Fischer about the Osti enterprises. I would like you tell us on what occasion was this report made; what had happened to Osti and whether you received that report at the time?
A Osti was discontinued in the autumn of 1943 or early 1944. I imagined the reason for that to be Clobonik's transfer. He was in Lublin, and he was the most active power behind the establishment of these enterprises and extensions. When Globocnik was transferred this active power was lacking and it became clear that the DAW, which was in Lublin anyway, could easily take over these enterprises. That at least is how I imagined the reason would be for the discontinuation of OSTI. Now Fisher's auditing report I saw for the first time here in Nurnberg. I did not know it before.
Q On the 6th of June a reference was made to OSTI credit when Frank was interrogated. Did you know anything about OSTI credit at the time and did you have any part in it?
A. The whole credit affair I heard nothing about and therefore took no part in it.
Q In your position as the second manager of the DWB or by virtue of your participation in these various enterprises did you get any special remuneration?
A No, all I received was my pay which was my due.
Q Did you not even get a bonus or something?
A There was no such thing as a bonus with us.
Q Now let us turn to your position as Pohl's deputy in his capacity as the main office chief. When did you deputize for Pohl and for how long could you do so?
A I became Pohl's deputy as main office chief on the 16th of September, 1943 and remained in that position until the end.
Q What was the reason for this.
A The reason was that Frank had gone.