Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q We have heard repeatedly of Staff W. Did you ever have anything to do with that Staff W?
A No.
Q With the establishment of the WVHA early in 1942, did anything change in your position as second manager in charge of the DWB?
A No, nothing changed.
Q However, this establishment of the WVHA also led to the establishment of Office Group W, didn't it?
A Yes.
Q What was the sense of this Amtsgruppe W? What was the sense of this organization, when there was a DWB?
A Well, you see, it is rather a difficult question, which I couldn't answer. It was Pohl's idea exclusively, namely, to give, so to say, a military touch to those enterprises, so that they could match with the other agencies. That was rather unusual, and they really did not fit within their framework and did not get accustomed to their new frame.
Q There is a famous story by Anderson where you have some sort of a pressing iron, which is probably a steam container, and that iron wants to be a steam kettle, and it actually exploded.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. I don't want to miss any of this, and I did. Will you translate again, please?
DR. HAENSEL: Andersen was a famous writer and wrote various stories which are of humane importance. He wrote a story of a pressing iron, you. see, and that pressing iron is dreaming it would like to be a steam kettle, you see, and it is only a very small pressing iron. It swells and swells until it bursts.
THE PRESIDENT: It bursts from trying to be a kettle?
DR. HAENSEL: Yes, quite so, and that is how I feel when all these enterprises are blown up into one big, huge concern, which of course could be classed as a pressing iron. That is the reason I tried to ask the witness what he really understood under Amt W, Amt W over Court No. II, Case No. 4.DW, and he did not succeed in telling me what the score was.
Maybe he will do so a little later on.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is Hans Christian Andersen you refer to?
DR. HAENSEL: Yes.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Pohl himself took over Amtsgruppe W as Chief. Why did he do that? Do you know anything about it?
A No one but Pohl could possibly take over as Chief of that office. After all, he was the one who wanted to become the Chief, so nobody else could become the chief.
Q Yes, but didn't he nominate you as Deputy Chief of Amtsgruppe W?
A Yes, of course, because every little organization had to have a deputy. He made me deputy of W, as he made me the second manager of DWB.
Q Did he actually give you an exact order as to what you had to do as the second man in command?
A The order was very short, and he told me that I had nothing to do with the whole affair. He told me that he himself would be in charge of Amtsgruppe W.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q When were you made deputy? At what date were you made deputy to Pohl in Staff W?
A I never was his deputy in Staff W. You mean Amtsgruppe W.
Q Amtsgruppe W.
A That was when it was established on 1 February 1942.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Can you tell us in one sentence the difference between Staff W and Office--Amtsgruppe--W?
A Office Group W was the consolidation of the entire economic enterprises, and Staff W was Pohl's instrument by which he led the DWB.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did you ever receive any additional new tasks, apart from your position as second manager in the DWB, and if you did have any additional task, did it result in your becoming Pohl's deputy in the administration of Amtsgruppe W?
A No, in no way.
Q Did anything change in your position with reference to the economic enterprises?
A No.
Q Who was it that gave the orders, the competent orders to Amtsgruppe W in the DWG?
A I have stated before that Pohl reserved to himself the right to be in charge of Amtsgruppe B and of DWB. He was the only man in charge.
Q Now I turn to Prosecution Document Book No. 14 on page 118 of the German; it is on page 136 of the English Document Book, NO-1048. Document Book 14, page 136, way down at the end. This is an order of Pohl's dated the 8th of December, 1942, to the chief of offices in the WVHA, and I ask you now what were the contents and the results of that order.
A First of all I have to correct you. The order was not for the offices of the WVHA, but only to the chiefs of offices of Amtsgruppe May I read the contents?
A Yes, if you just state it in once sentence.
A Pohl ordered that the W enterprises submit reports of considerable importance to me as his deputy. Where this order originated I don't know; however, I assume that Pohl for the first time saw that he should use me some time, and the reason he signed that order was that he was feeling good. That order, however, was of very short duration. After approximately fourteen days the order was officially cancelled, as Pohl himself told you during the examination he did not want the chiefs of office to discuss matters with me first before they came to see him rather. That was the reason why he cancelled this order after its short duration, and that officially prohibited chiefs of office from coming to see me.
Q I would like to introduce a few affidavits about the cancellation of that order as soon as they have all been translated. I shall like to enter on the second parts of your economic activities. Did you handle any legal connections with this to avoid, to keep economic enterprises from the SS complex, and, if so, what kind and what nature were they? I mean by that the formal participation in establishments, membership in supervisory boards, etc.
A Yes, I did participate in such participations. When I came to Nuernberg I really didn't know in what establishments I really participated. However, I understood from the documents that I participated in the Gemeinnuetzige, and I think I was in the Wohnungs-und-HeimstaettenGMBH; I think I was in the supervisory board there; and that I participated in the establishment of a company for textiles and leatherutilization; and also that I participated in the establishment of an iron and steel organization; that I was also a member of the supervisory board of the OSTI; and that it could also be possible that I participated in the establishment of several other agencies.
However, I can't recall any of them specifically.
Q With reference to the Gemeinnuetzige Wohnungs und Heimstaetten which you just mentioned, it is dealt with in document Book 14, page 104 of the German and page 115 of the English document book, Exhibit 402. Georg Loerner is mentioned on page 1 of this document, and in the last sentence before Roman numeral 11 it says that Dr. Salpeter dismissed and G. Loerner was appointed a member of the supervisory board in his place. Did you participate -- did you actually hold office, and did you take real decisions with reference to the administrator of this Heimstaetten OSTI, GMBH?
A No, I didn't. If I actually really signed along with many others for important decisions, I couldn't tell you today.
Q The Heimstaetten GMBH and OSTI was mentioned here. Now, with reference to this OSTI there was a document introduced and which is contained in Document Book 19, NO-1270; it is on page 7 of the German book; it is entitled questions concerning the establishment of the OSTI.
It is in Document Book 19; do you have it?
THE PRESIDENT: What is the document number?
DR. HAENSEL: Document NO-1270.
according to that, you are supposed to have participated in the establishment of the OSTI. Would you tell us now about the establishment of the OSTI, what it was like and how it originated.
A. This file note describes one of the conferences with Pohl which dealt with the final preparations for the establishment of the OSTI. Horn, who participated, was designated to be one of the business managers, wanted to got the necessary regulations, decrees and directives from Pohl. But when he started reading his questionnaire which contained this document, Pohl briskly interrupted him and told him those questions could not possibly be dealt with from the conference table, and that he didn't know why business managers should exist; if they wanted to have information, from him. The whole matter was up to the business managers who first of all had to convince themselves of the situation of the spot, and only then if they didn't know what to do they should come and see him. That is how this entire conference was finished. The questions described here, one, two and three, were not discussed. Also, the questionnaire I saw first time in Nurnberg I didn't notice at the meeting, nor did I notice it after the meeting. The conference lasted for approximately ten minutes, and apart from that, may I add that this document is not signed in the original -- it was only signed by the typewriter. 2984
Q. Do you think that the questionnaire was sent to you together with the invitation for the conference?
A. I do not think it was very formal, a conference like that; that is, it was carried out in a most informal matter. I would receive a phone call, that is the way it worked out every time -- that I hop over because there was a conference; that wasn't an invitation. As I said before, I did not see the questionnaire before, during or after the meeting -- nor did I read it.
Q. How is it that you actually participated in the OSTI -- what were you -- were you business manager there?
A. No, I was on the supervisory board, and also member of the OSTI. I participated in the management of the administration of the OSTI; more than in the administration of any other economic enterprises. My participation in the OSTI was the participation in two to three conferences, and giving my signature to two or three notary documents; that was my participation in the OSTI.
Q. This morning we referred to Document NO-490, rather Prosecution Exhibit 490, and contained in Document Book 19, on page 44. It deals with the change of Ghetto of Litzmannstadt to a concentration camp. Do you know as a fact that the OSTI, in connection with this change, was brought into connection with this change, or did you hear about it for the first time from this document?
A. I already stated before, this morning, that I didn't know anything about the change of Litzmannstadt to a concentration camp, or did I know that the OSTI had any connection at all with that, and I only heard about this thing in Nurnberg, and saw it in the documents.
Q. Did you visit any of the enterprises?
A. No, at no time did I ever visit any of the enterprises
Q. Did you know what the W enterprises were, and what kind of enterprises those were?
A. Of course I know that the OSTI enterprises -and by that I mean enterprises which dealt with armament matters of various kinds. What those enterprises were like I didn't know really.
Q. Do you know where they where located?
A. I don't know that either.
Q. The Prosecution introduced a further document which is contained in Document Book 19, on page 37, NO-9
THE PRESIDENT: Suggest that you continue with that document after the recess, Dr. Haensel.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Before the recess we stopped with our pressing iron in the shape of the OSTI. I would like to put to you Document Book 19, on page 37, Document NO-063. You have that document?
A Yes.
Q This is a list of the orders in hand of the OSTI. I would like to ask you what can you tell us about the orders in hand there as far as far as your own enterprises were concerned?
A First of all I would like to say about this document that. I only saw it here for the first time, and never saw it before. From the list of orders in hand it is interesting to note that this enterprise did not supply the SS at all, or at least only to a very small degree, with the exception of the peat coke for the Waffen-SS and a small order of brushes for the main warehouse, all other orders were directed to other branches of the armed forces. Particularly as far as textiles and furs are concerned, none of them, for instance, come from the clothing factory, which would be the natural thing. They are simply orders from the OKH and the Army Supply Office and Army Clothing Offices, from which it can be seen that we of Office Group B did not give orders to these firms, because all my colleagues, including myself, were disinclined to have dealings with the Globocnik enterprises, as we called them. I have nothing else to say about this document.
Q In document book 19, there is a document on page 65 and this is No. 1271. It is an auditing report by a man called Fischer about the Osti enterprises. I would like you tell us on what occasion was this report made; what had happened to Osti and whether you received that report at the time?
A Osti was discontinued in the autumn of 1943 or early 1944. I imagined the reason for that to be Clobonik's transfer. He was in Lublin, and he was the most active power behind the establishment of these enterprises and extensions. When Globocnik was transferred this active power was lacking and it became clear that the DAW, which was in Lublin anyway, could easily take over these enterprises. That at least is how I imagined the reason would be for the discontinuation of OSTI. Now Fisher's auditing report I saw for the first time here in Nurnberg. I did not know it before.
Q On the 6th of June a reference was made to OSTI credit when Frank was interrogated. Did you know anything about OSTI credit at the time and did you have any part in it?
A. The whole credit affair I heard nothing about and therefore took no part in it.
Q In your position as the second manager of the DWB or by virtue of your participation in these various enterprises did you get any special remuneration?
A No, all I received was my pay which was my due.
Q Did you not even get a bonus or something?
A There was no such thing as a bonus with us.
Q Now let us turn to your position as Pohl's deputy in his capacity as the main office chief. When did you deputize for Pohl and for how long could you do so?
A I became Pohl's deputy as main office chief on the 16th of September, 1943 and remained in that position until the end.
Q What was the reason for this.
A The reason was that Frank had gone.
Q And why were you appointed Pohl's deputy as main office chief?
A The reason is simple. I was the next senior officer.
Q. As Pohl's permanent deputy in that capacity, did you have a special function, for instance, when Pohl was absent did you sit in his room and was it made quite clear that you were the man who replaced him?
A No, nothing was done in that sense. I had never sat in Pohl's room nor did I have any special function but as Pohl put it himself I was to look after the house while he was away.
Q Was Pohl, during the last year, and a half, when you deputized as main office chief, frequently absent?
A No, on the contrary; it happened very infrequently during that period of time.
Q Was he absent for long periods of time or only briefly?
A No, his absence usually lasted a day or two, not longer.
Q Were sometimes both of you absent, Pohl and yourself, and who was then deputy?
A That also happened. I recall two occasions. Then the next senior officer in the house would deputize.
Q Now, when Pohl was absent and you were there how was business done in the building, did the office group chiefs come to see you; did you issue orders; what was your authority?
A During these brief spells of absence of Pohl's nothing in the official routine changed at all. The office group chiefs did their duty in dependently. Business went on as it did before. Pohl's A.D.C. was present; he took long distance calls for instance, read the mail or rather kept it or forwarded it to Pohl and usually I didn't even notice that Pohl wasn't there. I only noticed it when I had to make small disciplinary decisions. I simply deputized for Pohl as the master of the house when he was absent.
Q Before Pohl left on these occasions did he give you any special orders; did you perhaps in this manner acquire official knowledge which otherwise you would not have acquired had you not deputized for him?
A No, in no way at all. When I deputized for Pohl, he himself said expressly that I need not bother about the other office groups; they were responsible to him direct and during his absence the same responsible officials were in charge.
Q Would you have had the special knowledge in order to take a hand in the affairs of office group C and D while he was absent?
A First of all I did not have the knowledge and secondly I would have had to be kept up to date for which it would have been necessary for me permanently to attend the conference between Pohl end the office group D but I never took part in these conferences which is the reason why deputizing for Pohl in these fields was not necessary.
Q Did perhaps something happen which might well happen in a large Government department that one hopes fervently that the highest chief will go away for a bit in order to be able to do a few things which one is interested in?
A Pohl's assistants would have probably barked up the wrong tree in that case for I would not have stood for that and I cannot remember to have signed anything in Pohl's absence on his behalf.
Q Did you send reports and sign them to Himmler in Pohl's absence?
A No, Pohl had written out an order forbidding it.
Q Did you ever report to Himmler personally?
AAs Pohl's representative.
Q Yes, as Pohl's representative.
A No.
Q Did you, when Pohl was away issue orders for concentration camp commandants?
A No, not at all.
Q Supposing an enquiry would reach you, what would have happened? An enquiry which would have made a decision necessary for the commandant.
A That enquiry would not have been addressed to Pohl but to Gluecks and Gluecks would have made it or waited until Pohl returned.
Q In the functions of Pohl's deputy did anything change when Frank left and you became the deputy of the main office chief?
A I did not have the deputizing for the Allgemeine SS nor did I have the Treasury's authority for the Reichsbank.
Q Did you take part in any ceremonies in Pohls' absence?
A No, I did not, probably for the reason that such celebrations did not take place on days when Pohl was away.
Q You mean they would have been deferred?
A No, but probably among that time big celebrations were no longer held.
Q After all it was the last period during the war?
A Yes.
Q To complete this part of the interrogation I shall now turn to another complex which has appeared in this trial as the Reinhardt action and in order that my question shall be understood I wish to state that I use this term only in order to enable the court and other members of this trial to know what drawer in their mind they have to open, because in the period of time in which I am speaking now no Reinhardt action existed for Georg Loerner, no action at all and certainly not one which was connected with the dead Gestapo chief Reinhardt Heydrich. Tell me, witness, did you have anything to do with second hand material at any time? By that I mean dealings with old iron, old clothes and such items?
A No, I never did that.
Q Is it now known to you that sort of second hand trade played an important part in the national economy after the first world war?
A Yes, I know that.
Q Is that an occupation which you like?
A. No, that field was regarded in commercial circles rather coldly.
Q But fate forced you to have some dealings in that part of trade. How did that come about? For instance in the middle of 1942?
A Yes, it all happened in 1942, the beginning or the middle. At that time the raw material shortages became extremely acute in that field. We made a report to Himmler for the first time. Himmler replied that he knew of course, about the shortages but that he was in a position to help. He told us that in Lublin he had a large collecting center of materials from the East which he had established which was under Globocnik, SS and Police leader at Lublin. And he told Globocnik to transfer certain raw materials to us.
Q You told us now that between Himmler and yourself there was Pohl, and that nobody would be allowed to interfere in that relationship.
A When I say we reported to Himmler, I mean of course that I sent the report and Pohl passed it on to Himmler; and in his reply again Himmler addressed himself to Pohl and not to me.
Q So, therefore, what you heard as Himmler's opinion you heard through Pohl?
A Yes.
Q What did Pohl tell you: what he had done with the agencies and what he had negotiated-
THE INTERPRETER: There is an awful noise, Your Honor, and I can't hear.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you suspend just a minute?
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q I asked to describe to us what Pohl had told you about his negotiations with other agencies of Himmler about the materials.
A Pohl told me that on Himmler's order he had talked to Reichsminister Funk, and the latter he said was ready to let us have more raw materials in the textile field provided that we would submit to the Reich ministry of Economics the evaluation of these textiles as promised to us. Funk's agency had been informed and we only needed to start the negotiations.
Q Now, Globocnik's name had been mentioned?
A Yes.
Q Why is it that Himmler did not simply order Globocnik to send the second-hand materials direct to Funk or the Reich Ministry of Economics?
Why were you interpolated?
A Of course, there I believe that Globocnik would not have carried out the deliveries because it was his ambition to keep all the material in Lublin in order to have it used there. The second reason of Himmler was to use us so that through us we would be granted the increased raw material requested by the Reich Ministry of Economics which Globocnik, as SS police leader, would never have been granted.
Q How did you think that this second-hand material which you received in order to increase your contigents--where would they have been stored? Where would they have been space to store them?
A What I imagined at the time was that in Lublin, or that Lublin, itself would have a large warehouse for all second-hand material from the Occupied Easter Territories, both for German material from the campaigns and for confiscated material--so-called black market wares.
Q Will you please describe to us how it actually came in and was passed on?
A The whole business started somewhat slowly and from the beginning we felt in the case of Globocnik a secret resistance against any collaboration with the WVHA. What happened was that Lublin, usually by telephone or teletype, reported to us when now wagon-load of material were at their disposal. My official negotiated with the Reich Minister of Economics and that ministry told us what firm would use the material and where the transports were to go to; and by agreement with the management of the Reich railways railway wagons were put at our disposal.
These terms and the dates on the wagons supposed to be at our disposal were reported to Lublin by teletype--and that was the end of that for the time being. These were purely intermediary persons.
Q The Prosecution have submitted--and I am sure everybody will still remember it--a document signed by Frank of 26 September, 1942. It is in volume 18, page 85 of the English version, and page 108 in the German book, NO-724. Have you got the document?
A Yes.
Q Will you please tell us what conclusions you reached from the first line of this document, as far as our case here concerned?
A This order was made in six copies. I did not receive a copy of the order, but it was sent to me for informative reasons and I had to pass it on. From this order, I only memorized what concerned Office Group B, and I did not bother about the other regulations.
Q This order is addressed to the SS Garrison Administration in Lublin. Were you ever in Lublin?
A Yes; I was there twice, once in 1940 and on another occasion in the autumn of 1941. On both occasions I visited the Group Administration there.
Q What was the picture you had of Lublin from that period of time?
A The picture I had of Lublin was that of a large SS garrison. Lublin and its surroundings was full of SS troops, and I also had the impression that it was a large industrial center, in the extension of which Globocnik was extremely interested. It was also a large camp for any amount of supply goods for the Eastern front, and for any type of goods and wares from the Eastern territories.
Q In September, 1942--this is the period we are talking about now-did you have conception of the size of the territory east of Lublin at that time which was occupied?
A Yes, these vast areas I saw myself once, when in the summer of 1942 I went to Kiev and Dnjepropetrowsk.
Q Apart from this written order, did you have any secret official orders additionally from Pohl, or through Himmler, or someone else?
A No, in no way at all.
Q You told us now that you looked at this order only from the point of view of Office Group B, and you memorized it?
A Yes, that is true. It concerned the use to be made of the textiles.
Q Now, how did these things reach you? Or how was is that you heard about delivery the textiles goods?
A: These leads usually went in three or five wagons without our seeing them. They went direct to the firms which had been named by the Ministry of Economics. Lublin also reported that at Himmler's orders it had sent things to the Eastern German Agency or the concentration camp or any other agency named by Himmler. On some occasions he ordered the WVHA to have special supplies sent to the Eastern German Office. I recall for instance, that 10,000 pieces of clothing were to be sent to the Racial Germans on the Black Sea, and many other orders of this nature, for instance, a delivery to a certain construction scheme in the East. These deliveries were made from Lublin and we only kept the books.
Q: Who among your people worked on the technical side of the deliveries, which were the result of this order?
A: I told Hauptsturmfuehrer Kersten of B-IV to do this. He usually negotiated with the OKH and the Reich Ministry of Economics about raw materials.
Q: We have attempted to get hold of Kersten, but I couldn't find him. You don't know where he might be?
A: No, all I know is that in the end he was in the south.
Q: Did you give Kersten a free hand to carry out your order?
A: Obviously he had to work on the technical side of it. I couldn't be bothered with the technical details myself.
Q: In the order it says, for instance, that prices of this second hand material had to be fixed. Who fixed these standard prices?
A: Standard prices for textiles were fixed by the Reichs Ministry of Economics.
Q: At what intervals of time did Kersten report to you about the deliveries?
A: I am unable to give you the details there. Probably every four or six weeks he came to see me and told me how things stood.
Q: Apart from the textiles, there were leather goods and furs. How were they handled?
A: All these things were handled in accordance with orders issued by the Reichs Minister of Economics. On one occasion we received a few wagons of shoes which had come from the Reich Ministry of Economics and we were to use them to make shoes for inmates. The Furs went in accordance with the orders of the Reich Ministry of Economics to the Association of Furriers. A few sheepskins were sent by the Reich Ministry of Economics to us in order to have winter clothing made.
Q: How was the accounting done of these things which Kersten had handled?
A: The firms which received goods in accordance with the orders by the Reichs Ministry of Economics were given bills by us with the prices as fixed by the Reichs Ministry of Economics. The firms paid these bills by transmitting money to the treasury of WVHA. There they were booked as Reich income.
Q: Under whom were these Lublin camps? Who was in charge?
A: These camps were exclusively under Globocnik.
Q: You knew this man Globocnik, did you? What was his reputation?
A: I did indeed. I saw him perhaps four times and talked to him. His reputation was that he was Himmler's favorite and acted accordingly. He had the reputation of being extremely ambitious.
Q: And you hinted already that Globocnik did not like having the material collected by him sent to the Reichs Ministry of Economics. Do you believe that if the highest agency of the WVHA had not been interpolated in this the Reichs Ministry of Economics would have been able to copy with Globocnik?
A: I don't believe that they could have done so. Globocnik had the ambition of using material in his own enterprises and to make Lublin into an extremely large industrial center.