BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Would you like to tell me, the clothes which were necessary for every man, who was it that fixed those for the army?
A The SS Operational Office did that.
Q In other words, not "you but the SS Operational Office?
A Yes.
Q Who was it with the concentration camps? Did you fix that, or did you receive the request? Who was it that fixed the clothing quota for the inmates?
A The Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps or Amtsgruppe D was the one that fixed it.
Q How was it that those particular pieces of clothing came to the camp for the inmates? Did they get a preview? Or how was it?
AAmtsgruppe D gave the order to B-2 how the clothes had to be distributed to the camps. The delivery took place directly from the clothing factory to the individual camps.
Q Bureaucratically, is that correct?
A Bureaucratically would be correct to send the clothes to Amtsgruppe D who should have done the distribution.
Q Why was this not done?
A Due to the lack of transportation.
Q Who was it that was responsible now that the individual inmates in the concentration camp received his clothes from the total amount of clothes delivered?
A The commander of the concentration camp and his administrative leaders were responsible for that.
Q And if he didn't do it properly and correctly, who was it that had to tell him what to do?
A The office in charge of the concentration camps, that is, Amtsgruppe D.
Q Now who was responsible that the clothes in the stocks were in good condition, in other words, the condition which was in accordance with the expenditure?
A It was also the concentration commandant and his administrative leaders.
Q We heard much about complaints here. I refer now to the witness Dr. Kogon, who spoke of wooden shoes in Buchenwald, that is to say, that the inmates received wooden shoes. What do you know about that?
AAt the beginning of the war Himmler had ordered that such wooden shoes be procured for the concentration camps. However, as several complaints were received soon afterwards that these wooden shoes were not the proper thing that procurement was ceased by us on our own accord and as can be seen from the document and as we said before, the individual concentration camps, however, still issued such wooden shoes on their own accord.
Q Do you know that sabotage acts occurred in the concentration camps, in other words, in order to destroy wooden shoes and clothing.
A Yes, I heard about it.
Q Did you have a possibility to interfere or do something about it?
A No.
Q Why not?
A Because that was the task of Amtsgruppe D.
Q Did you at any time put any clothes at the disposal of Dachau for clothing experiments?
A Yes, we did deliver several times certain experimental clothes for the Army which were to be tried out by the Army. As far as placing clothing at the disposal of Dr. Rascher for his experiments, as can be seen from the document, I know nothing.
Q In other words, your experiments dealt with experiments on the clothing itself?
A Yes.
Q However, I think Rascher's deal with experiments on human beings. The documents which was introduced by the Prosecution in Document Book 7 on page 99, Exhibit 212, NO-287, Document No. 7, page 9 of the German. I have 250 of the English text, but that couldn't be correct, could it? Then I would like to introduce Document 428, which was presented by the Prosecution, Document Book No. 7, page 57, Exhibit 209. Those are the Rascher documents.
A The first document is a letter of Dr. Rudolf Brandt to Pohl.
Q Just a moment, please.
THE PRESIDENT: The document number, please.
WITNESS:NO-287, Exhibit number 212.
Q Yes, please continue. I believe that the Tribunal has the copy.
A In this letter in the last paragraph Brandt asks for help for the clothing factory. I would like to quote. "Please issue the order that the clothing factory in Dachau be of some help to SSHauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher when he is carrying out those experiments on clothing of the inmates." I don't have any knowledge about that letter nor can I recall that the clothing factory ever did manufacture such experimental clothing.
Q May I ask you, is the letter addressed to you at all?
A No, the letter is addressed to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
THE PRESIDENTL: Dr. Haensel, please, the interpreters request that you slow down your program just a little and give more interval between the question and answer. They are quite frantic about it.
A However, if one takes a look at the second paragraph of this document and I shall quote. "Rascher proposed to the Reichsfuehrer SS to distribute in the clothing the heat bottles in both pockets of the coat and also to place two more in the pouches of the trousers, because those soldiers who are standing guard needed one of those warm water bottles around their knees. I don't believe I have to go into detail here." From this statement it can be seen that according to my opinion, this does not deal with experimental clothing for the human experiments or Dr. Rascher, but rather Army experiment clothing.
THE PRESIDENT: That's perfectly plain to ask Dr. Haensel, that this refers to the experiments on the clothing and not on the inmates.
Q Perhaps I can say that a little bit more briefly. Did you know anything about the medical experiments or cold experiments, freezing experiments, etc. at Dachau and if you did hear anything about it, did you ever deliver anything in order to aid those experiments?
A No, I at that time heard anything about those experiments and the first time I heard about them was here in this Trial and never prior to that.
Q Whatever is said in the document, namely, concerning those warm water bottles, which are mentioned and which are to be placed on their knee, don't you think that the idea was not to cool off a person, but to warm him up, rather? Is that how it was?
A Yes, I would like to draw your attention here to Document NO-428. It is stated here on page 25 of the German text the foam suit and the development of that foam suit was carried out by the German Textile Institute in Munich, Munich-Glattbach.
I believe it can be seen from that that the experimental suit was delivered by the institute in Munich and not by the clothing factory.
Q And no other agency that was under your supervision?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q I will complete this particular clothing complex with one concluding question. How is it that you delivered the clothing for the inmates and not the food?
A That can be explained only by the peace time development of those supply fields. The procurement of clothing and equipment at all times, even during the peace time, was carried out centrally, that particularly in order to use the money much better and to find faster means to produce those things. In peace time the only man in charge responsible for food was the commander or the commandant of a concentration camp respectively. The Army received a certain amount of money per day and per man and was responsible that the necessary food was purchased for that amount. One called that the self-administration or independent fund. At the beginning of the war this procedure was eliminated and the Quartermaster issue was introduced. The Waffen SS was still being supplied by the Army up until Spring 1940 when we assumed that task ourselves and took it over on the civilian sector with the first day of the war. The food rations for the civilian population and for the inmates was fixed by the Reichs Ministry of Food and the allotment of rations was carried out by both the civilian and local food sources. It can be understood therefore that we were responsible for the delivery of clothing, but not for the delivery of food, for the feeding of inmates.
DR. HAENSEL: Your Honor, I shall now proceed to Amtsgruppe B-III. Perhaps it would be an opportune moment to call the recess.
THE PRESIDENT: I think so, recess until 1:45.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 18 June 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
GEORG LOERNER (Resumed) DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Mr. Loerner, I should like to ask you to speak a little more slowly so that the translation really comes through properly. I shall also try to do the same thing because I promised it to the interpreters. I should like to come back to Judge Musmanno's suggestion. I thought about the whole suggestion and I can just recall something about Othello where Othello says that "I'm worried because everything is so beautiful today that I can forget all my worries." I believe that the Prosecution actually has quite a few document books over there which would actually darken the sun you see.
So I shall start from your point of view, Witness: and I'd appreciate it if you would throw an illuminating light on the various offices. We shall come now to that particular office which we call B-III. I should like you to tell us first of all what B-III was in charge of; what their competencies were; but then, on the other hand, your personal competencies with reference to B-III. What was B-III competent for, Witness?
A Office B-III was competent for the delivery of the equipment for the barracks of the Waffen SS and the concentration camps.
Q Did you organize that Office B-III?
A No, Office B-III resulted from the Main Department I/4, the Main Office Budget and Construction; and that one again came from the Main Office V-IV, the Administrative Office of the SS. I myself did not carry out the construction of that organization. All I did was to have the supervisory capacity over it.
Q The chief of that office was Koeberlein. I should like to introduce an affidavit by Koeberlein which will explain in detail what his activity was. I should like to clarify one more point, however. In your field of supervision through B-III did you also have to supervise repair work on buildings in the concentration camps?
A No, that was not the task of B-III. That was the task of the local construction agency.
Q B-III, in other words, only had to supply the equipment, the accommodation equipment?
A Well, perhaps it would be better to say that they had to supply the equipment for the billets and lodgings.
Q Wasn't that equipment for the greatest part manufactured in the camp itself?
A Yes, partly, yes. However, some of it was requisitioned from BIII.
Q Is that procurement different from the kind of procurement we hear from other offices?
A No. Office B-III also received its raw material from the OKH, that is, the High Command of the Army; and from January 1943 all procurement also for the concentration camps was carried out by the Wehrmacht or Army Supply Office, and that centrally. So from that particular moment on B-III was nothing but a distribution agency.
Q What did you have to do in your daily routine? Did all the mail addressed to B-III come to your desk?
A. No, the mail went to B III directly. Koeberlein was an experienced expert in that field, and he worked rather independently. He came to see me every week or every two weeks and reported to me about the most important things. As far as the rest was concerned, we worked rather independently.
Q. When there were complaints about the procurement of construction material and construction tools, did you ever receive any such complaints?
A. No, I didn't. Particularly after 1943 or 1944, there were shortages. However, these shortages were not limited to concentration camps only but to all the fields of activities.
Q. I believe that we can conclude your sector B III by that and transfer to B IV. How long did that office exist?
A. This office existed since the 1st of February 1942 up to January 1944.
Q. Who was in charge of it?
A. The ex Obersturmbannfuehrer Weckel.
Q. What was the main task of that office?
A. The main task of that office was the securing of raw material and the supervision of the procurement of manufactured goods.
Q. In the organizational chart which my colleague Rauschenbach submitted, Office B IV had been omitted entirely. Do you think that this is significant of the importance of that office which only lasted for a short time?
A. Since the concentration of the procurement of raw material and towards the end of 1942 or 1943, the importance of that office had become less and less great; and I believe that that was the reason for the omission.
Q. We shall now transfer to speak about Office B V. How long did it exist?
A. Office B V was established on the 1st of October 1942.
The reason for its establishment was that the procurement of transportation did not work properly. At the time I asked our personnel Chief Fanslau to give me an expert, a technical expert. That really occured in the Operational Main Office, the defendant Scheide was employed for that particular purpose. He built up his office according to expert knowledge, and he also led it in an expert way.
Q. You are not an expert on the motor transportation system?
A. No, I'm not, no.
Q. Did you leave it up to Scheide to lead that office?
A. Scheide's tasks were purely of a technical nature of which I did not understand too much. As Scheide was an expert in his field, I left it up to him actually to direct that organization. He had to report to me about the most important things. However, as far as the rest was concerned, he did it himself.
Q. Do you recall that at any time transports or deportations of human beings took place through those offices?
A. No, that never did occur. It was not the task of Office V to carry out such transports.
Q. Did you ever receive any complaints about the activities of the employees of that office?
A. No.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q I believe that we can leave it up to the defendant Scheide to go into more details about that office. All we have to do now is to touch upon those questions briefly which refer to Office B, which, however, are not contained in the competencies which we discussed of further office. Were there any other offices which come under Group B which actually comprised several offices and which were subordinated to you?
A Yes. Early in 1943, the so-called Examination Staff was established. That Examination Staff was directly subordinated to me and had as its task to inspect all the warehouses which were within Amtsgruppe B. For instance, the clothing warehouses, the food warehouses, and the lodgement camps. We had to examine them in their technical respect. Auditing work was not carried out by that staff. The only thing they did was to carry out the technical supervision or examination of that with respect to abiding camp regulations, and also examining as to how long a person would remain in that camp. The main task was the examination of air raid shelters, and that is about all, in brief.
THE PRESIDENT: There is some confusion, Dr. Haensel, about the discontinuance of one of these offices. Was it B IV that was discontinued?
DR. HAENSEL: B IV only existed from '42 to '44, the task of procuring raw materials, etc., etc. It was then eliminated. That is the office which is not referred to on Rauschenbach's chart, you see.
THE PRESIDENT: Then B IV was transportation under Scheide?
DR. HAENSEL: Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I understood you to say that B IV was organized in 1942 and stayed in existence until January the first, 1944, when it was found out that the office was no longer needed, and then after January the first, 1944, there was no more B IV, but there was Court No. II, Case No. 4.a B V which was transportation under the direction of Scheide?
DR. HAENSEL: Yes, indeed, Your Honor. I will continue.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q In your connection and on your basis as Chief of Amts Group B, did you have any functions outside of those contained in the chart? I believe you told us that, for instance, you were a member of the Clothing Commission, etc. What kind of an organization was that? What office did you have there?
A Early in 1944, General Ziegler received an order from Hitler to carry out special construction work which was aimed at the simplification of the installations of all branches, the army, navy, OT, SS, Luftwaffe. That was the reason why General Ziegler set up certain commissions for the various fields. I was a member of both the commissions for clothing and for food, and I retained that task up to 1944, that is, the fall of '44.
Q What was the connection between the Amtsgruppen or office groups? In the indictment it states that you, with reference to the job, aims and functions, were closely connected with each other. Who did you collaborate with in other offices in your capacity as chief of Amtsgruppe B?
A That close relationship didn't exist in reality. A collaboration as contained in the indictment did not take place. Of course, I did have conferences with one or other Amtsgruppe Chiefs in that once in awhile. However, this did not deal with special tasks, but only with questions of general natures. How good this connection was and how very little one Amtsgruppe knew about the other one can be clearly seen by the statements of Amtsgruppe A in their affidavits. And that with respect to my task in the field of food one can easily see from that that they didn't know too much about Amtsgruppe B and vice versa.
Q In order to gain sight into all those things, I would appreciate it if you would tell me how many people you had under your Court No. II, Case No. 4.Amtsgruppe B?
A Defending on the various periods of time, it varied. Towards the end of 1942, the personnel of the Amts was 250 to 300 people. Toward the end of 1944 we had possibly 50 to 60 people. This rigorous personnel cut shows very clearly how everyone of the members of the Amtsgruppe was overloaded with work; and the task of Amtsgruppe B did not decrease with the continuation of the war, but rather they increased. In other words, what in 1942 was done with 250 people had to be done in 1944 with 60 people.
Q What was the experience, what were the backgrounds of the people who had the -
A The active members had gone through the leadership school and the administrative school, whereas the reservists, all the people in the reserve, which really was the largest percentage in the office, came from all sorts of professions.
Q You just told us that you were a member of a commission for the simplification of the army administration. Do you think it possible that this entire Amtsgruppe could have been connected with an army Amtsgruppe without any difficulties resulting from that merger?
A Of course, it would have been possible, and the proposals of the commission also suggested that, that all persons dealing with clothing were to be dealt with for all the Wehrmacht branches in one city office, and the same was to apply to the food groups and others.
Q Were you always paid from the money of the Reich just like all the others?
A Of course.
Q Your official relationship to your subordinates was a military subordination?
A Yes.
Q Was there any personal feeling in it?
A Well, I gladly listened to the suggestions made by my subordinates, and I several times directed by decisions according to their Court No. II, Case No. 4 suggestion.
Q. Did Pohl let himself be -- did you make any suggestions to Pohl?
A. No, he wouldn't let me make suggestions.
Q. Did you speak to Himmler alone repeatedly?
A. Alone, never. I went to see Himmler three or four times together with Pohl.
Q. Did you have a personal relationship to Himmler?
A. No, that was not possible.
Q. Did you have anything to do with Amtsgruppe D which was included into the WVHA? Was there any change in Amtsgruppe B?
A. Nothing changed there.
Q. Did you have official contacts with other administrations within the SS organizations and outside of the WVHA?
A. Yes, of course. I had particularly close contacts with Office IV, Operational Main Office, because we were responsible for the clothing and the procurement of tools and equipment for the Waffen SS. This contact was closer than the one we had with D/4 because we didn't have to provide the food for D.
Q. Now, an individual question, witness. As office group B, did you have anything to do with the change of the Ghetto of Litzmannstadt to a concentration camp which was mentioned by the prosecution?
A. Neither I nor Amtsruppe B had anything to do with that.
Q. However, you did gain knowledge of that, didn't you? I mean, of the fact that a change did occur?
A. Well, the only way I received knowledge of this is when I received a letter.
Q. This letter that you just mentioned is Document 19, page 44 of the German text. That is NO 519, Exhibit 490, that is the document which consists of the various individual letters. If I can ask you a few questions in order to clarify the importance of that. Please compare the three letters dated 16 February to Gauleiter Greiser, the fol Court No. II, Case No. 4.lowing one dated 17 February to Obersturmbannfuehrer Brandt, and the following one dated 17 of February to Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
All three letters come from Pohl and all of them contain the information that the Ghetto of Litzmannstadt no longer interests the WVHA. The first of these letters, dated 16 February 1944, contains a notation that "due to the participation of our French wine contingent, I shall write to you under separate cover. Signed Pohl." Would you tell us, Loerner, which one of the three letters actually reached you and under what circumstances?
A From the remarks below it can be seen that I received the letter which you just quoted. All the other letters I never saw. This letter here was not sent to me because of the question of the Ghetto Litzmannstadt, but rather, because of that particular paragraph which you just quoted concerning the wine. It deals with a shipment of wine which was placed at Himmler's disposal by the French Government. Before we had received that shipment, Himmler had distributed it to the various other groups and agencies, and among them was Greiser also. I received that letter. The wine was never delivered because the invasion came in between.
Q Now, the last document in this complex is in Document Book 7, 920, Exhibit 203, Page 40, No 920. This is the document wherein Georg Loerner is confused with his brother in the financing of the army research installations. This confusion has already been stated in the case of the defendant Hans Loerner. All that I want to do now is ask you if you ever had anything to do with the financing of the Ahnenerbe or of the Army Scientific Research Institute or of the experimental research work. Did you ever have anything to do with it?
A No, as Chief of Amtsgruppe B, I never did have anything to do, and as such I did not have to deal with financial questions. I never spoke to either Sievers or any of his representatives.
Q Thus we can conclude Amtsgruppe B, and we can turn our attention to your activity in the economic field. We have two groups of problems that we have to treat right now. First of all is your position as second manager of the DWB and as a representative of Amtsgruppe B, Court No. II, Case No. 4.which is a result of your first positions.
Then the second group deals with your official position in some of the economic enterprises. Therefore, let us first turn to DWB. What does that mean?
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Just before you go into that please, I would like to ask the witness a question or two. Witness, I understand you, when you were talking about clothing that you furnished for the inmates of the concentration camps, to testify that you had a conversation with the defendant Pohl in regard to this clothing, especially as to the insufficiency of it at the time you were talking to him, and asked his advice about what to do to remedy the situation. Is that correct?
A What I discussed in those individual discussion I can not tell you today. Most of the time the things worked out this way: I reported to Pohl in those conferences about the situation in clothing of the inmates, and the same applied to the clothing for the army, and I also informed him of the difficulties. I also informed him of what I intended to do and if he thought that was correct and if he agreed to that, and he always agreed to it and gave his approval to almost anything that I originated.
Q That is what I wanted to ask you: What he said in reply when you would come to him about the difficulties regarding clothing for the inmates. What, if anything, would he say to you in reply?
A You mean what Pohl answered me?
Q Yes.
A Well, he asked me if I knew any way in which to get further raw materials from the Reich Economy Ministry. I told him that we had done everything we could, and then I usually suggested a report to the Reichsfuehrer about those difficulties. Pohl agreed, and he told me to draw up those reports and to complete them. I submitted those reports to him, and he signed them and sent them on to the Reich Leadership.
Q He agreed with your suggestions as a rule and left it rather Court No. II, Case No. 4.to your discretion as to what to do?
A Yes, indeed.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q We were just talking about the DWB. How did you participate in the establishment of the DWB? Were you ordered to establish a DWB, or how was it?
A In May 1940 I was called to see Pohl, who told me that it was necessary to create a holding company for the various economic enterprises. As the GMBH law prescribes that at least two people belonging to the company are necessary in order to establish the GMBH, he had nominated me as second manager in charge, he was to bring along a capital of RM 100,000 and that I had to bring along RM 10,000. He told me that immediately after the establishment I would have to re-transfer the capital to him so that he alone would be the manager in charge. In other words, he gave RM 100,000-or RM 90,000, and I gave 10,000--a total of RM 100,000. This was an order and I carried it out.
Q That particular item of RM 10,000 which you took over, did you pay that?
A No, I did not. I just acted as trustee, and I never did see the money.
Q Apart from the word "trustee", we have a different name.
A You mean "dummy".
Q Did you have any views or any results in that particular participation?
A No.
Q Later on-- And when was it actually that you formally became the second manager in charge?
A That was in July 1941 when I became second manager in charge. After the establishment and after I had transferred my part to Pohl immediately after the establishment, I did not have anything to do with the DWB.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Did you ever consider why Pohl actually needed a second manager in charge? After all, he was the only one who had the right of signature.
A I never did have any misgivings about that, and Pohl himself told me what the reasons were. He told me that the whole thing was a formal matter and that only in a particular case, if he should have an accident and no longer be able to manage the concern--that that was the only reason he wanted to have a man who was to manage the business until Himmler would designate a new representative.
Q If that particular case had really occurred--that is to say, if Pohl had an accident or something--you would have become the first manager of the DWB?
A I don't think that, because I do not believe that the Reichsfuehrer would have assigned me to that task.
Q Did you ever hear any statements from Pohl about the future plans which the enterprises had and his own future plans, as far as the enterprises after the war were concerned?
A Yes. He wanted to withdraw those economic enterprises from the WVHA and take over. He told me at the time that he would then leave the administration of the army to Frank and me and that he would deal only with economic questions.
Q I imagine that that was a large plan of Pohl's--to become a manager of a concern after the war?
A Yes.
Q Was that your idea also? That is, to join the private economy?
A No, I never had that intention. If so, I wanted to withdraw from the active service and take up gardening somewhere.
Q Do you believe that Pohl would have been especially qualified to be in charge of such an economic concern, or do you think that he actually overestimated himself?
A I could not tell you that because I don't know his real Court No. II, Case No. 4.activity in that field too well.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q The economic enterprises were never really taken out of the WVHA, were they?
A No, and I did not assert that either.
Q No, but I understood you to say that Pohl's reason for the holding company was to take them out of the WVHA.
A No, I did not say that.
Q Well, the translation must have been wrong then. What did you say about that?
A I said that Pohl had told me that it was necessary to form a holding company to comprise all of the economic enterprises, in order to consolidate the economic enterprises.
Q It was not for the purpose of getting the economic enterprises out of and away from the WVHA?
A No.
Q All right.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q Maybe we can continue from here on, Mr. Loerner. What actually were the tasks of the DWB; I mean of the consolidation which you just mentioned? Why was this consolidation carried out? Don't you think of tax problems?
A The main task of the DWB was to carry out the management of all the economic enterprises; that is to say, from a tax point of view and from an economic point of view.
Q Do you think that labor assignment was also included in that?
A No, that was never attached to the DWB.
Q Who was to supervise labor assignment in the economic enterprises, in the "W" enterprises, as the German term goes?
A Pohl was the one who actually was in charge of the labor as far as the last decisions were concerned.