Did you at that time report to General Rendulic?
A. No, I did not report to General Rendulic because I did not carry out investigations. I had no judges with me but I informed myself with the responsible Commander and that was von Pannwitz.
Q Certainly, Pannwitz at that time, looking upwards, was via the corps under the 2nd Army.
A Well, I don't know what the formations of the 2nd Army were. I know about the corps but I don't know anything else. I assume that if that was in the area of the army then, of course.
Q Well, then you didn't think that it was necessary to report and to take up contact with the superior officer of the Cossack Division.
A Well, no, Pannwitz showed me documents and read the sentences and told me what he had done and I saw no reason to go to Rendulic.
Q Does that mean that these things did not concern the commanderin chief of the 2nd Army?
A Well, I had the impression that Pannwitz was doing his very best to clear up the matter on the spot with great energy. He talked about death sentences.
Q Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for defendant Dehner):
Q Witness, you were talking about an Operation Ferdinand, Cornflower and Armin. Is that correct?
A Yes, I stated that they were various operations and those were the names.
Q On what is your knowledge of this operation based?
A I received these reports, of course, as far as the SS and Police were concerned, through a double route: first of all from the Wehrmacht and then the Higher SS and Police Leader as regards larger operations reported to Himmler.
Q From whom did you receive these reports?
A Well on the one side from the OKW Wehrmacht Operational Staff and from the other side from Himmler, the Adjutant of Himmler, who then passed it on to my staff.
Q Did these reports which you received contain these names?
A Well, I definitely remember Cornflower and also Ferdinand and Armin or Arnim. I can't remember - I supposed after the name of the prince.
Q You saw that name in the reports received from the Wehrmacht Operational Staff?
A Yes, as far as I remember.
Q But you can't say definitely?
A Well, so definitely, I really can't say. I assume it was Cornflower, Ferdinand, but it can have been... anyway, I know Cornflower was the first one. Cornflower!
Q Do you know that was contained in the reports from the Wehrmacht Operational Staff?
A No, I really, of course, can't remember that in detail.
Q You said that during this Operation Ferdinand the Cossack Division was in action.
A No, excuse me. I didn't say that - Ferdinand, no, I said, Armin. I was there myself, Doctor, and only once when Ruma was talked about did I remember the names, not everything from the report, I mean on the spot. It was like this. Not only from the reports. Cornflower was first of all; then came Ferdinand and then - and I must stress, that at the moment when the Cossack Division took command - the operation was called Armin. Well, one can't say that the Cossack Division was in charge during the second part - that is, during Ferdinand.
Q Well, perhaps we can divide it up in order to find out the basis of your knowledge. What do you know about the reports from the Wehrmacht Operational Staff?
A Well, Doctor, the main knowledge comes from my presence in Ruma and this happened like this....
Q All right, that is enough. How long were you in Ruma at that time?
A Only one day.
Q One day?
A Yes, I didn't stay there over night, just one day. I went through on to somewhere else - I don't know - Belgrade or Zagreb, somewhere.
Q And with whom did you speak during that one day?
A With whom did I what?
Q With whom did you speak that one day?
A With the Ia, that is - with the General, and with the Ia of the Division 170 or whatever it was, three numbers, I don't remember exactly.
Q That is all right, please continue!
A I don't remember the General - his name was Kanderwelsh or something like that, he was from Silesia, I think.
Q That's all right, just state the people to whom you talked, who else?
A With General von Pannwitz, with his Ia, and then with Kammerhofer. Kammerhofer had in his escort another SS-Fuehrer von Samen - that was the SS and Police Leader in Esseg and then the Ia belonging to the combat group Kammerhofer was also the Police lieutenant Col. Korn and I spoke with these men.
Q And your knowledge is based on the conversations held during this day?
A Yes, supplemented by the reports.
Q And now what did you find out definitely from the reports?
A Well, regarding what?
Q Regarding this operation.
A Well, I only remember how it went, it started from Belgrade.
Q No, only what you remember today that you learned from the reports.
A Well, I really can't separate that today.
Q You then said, witness, that the police were not allowed to take any step without the agreement of the Wehrmacht authorities.
A No, no, no, I never said that. I said "couldn't". I didn't say "wasn't allowed to", because it was dependent on material, not according to orders. Not that they had to ask anyone. I never said that. That must have been misunderstood. I said they could not take any steps because it was dependent on the material. I did not say it was not allowed to.
No, no, that is a mistake. There is a misunderstanding, I must stress that.
Q Then you want to say now, if I understand you correctly now, that according to orders they were independent?
A No, no, not as clear as that, Doctor. I just want to avoid the fact that the responsibility which the SS had - would you please ask the question again?
Q Do you want to say that the Police and SS - and my question only refers to Croatia - was subordinate to the Wehrmacht officers there?
A My answer to this is quite clear. First of all in the combatting...
Q Please answer the question with yes or no.
A Yes and no, because the combatting with regard to the large partisan groups "yes" and with combatting the house partisan groups "no".
Q Could the police also carry out operations independently?
A The police could take independent local small operations, against the house partisans, within the sphere of its police tasks in their area.
DR. GAWLIK: And now from the War Diary of the LXIXth Corps, Your Honors, I have already submitted as Document Dehner No. 16, Exhibit No. 10.
Q I would like to show you the entry dated the 10th of November 1943.
Q. Please read this entry, first of all, into the record.
A. On the 9th of November, SS Oberfuehrer and Colonel of the Police von Samen was requested to proceed with one battalion of the police, from Virovica to relieve Koprivnica. Colonel von Samen thereupon pointed out that he, with regard to operations outside his security area, could only act with the agreement of his superior agency, the Plenipotentiary of the Reich Leader of the SS in Croatia, SS Gruppenfuehrer and Lt. General of the Police Kammerhofer. The efforts on the part of the 69th Reserve Corps or the 187th Reserve Division to get this approval from Kammerhofer takes more than twelve hours. Approval arrives on the 10th of November, 0900 hours. That is at a time when the police battalion was already marching back from Virovica to Esseg. The intended releave of Koprivnica by police forces therefore failed.
Q. And now I would like to show you, in the same connection, a document, a teletype dated 1st of October 1943, Exhibit 375. Please read the comments under IIa Exhibit 375.
A. Should I read it?
Q. Yes, please.
A. Heading, the whole thing is a report -
Q. No, please only read from IIa.
A. 173, Division A. SS Gruppenfuehrer Kammerhofer has today continued operation in Syrmia but nevertheless not as originally planned in the western part of Fruska Gora but as a purely police operation against Communist invested villages and localities in the Sava Band and south of the line Inja-Ruma.
Q. Do you agree with me now witness that in Croatia there were special circumstances where the police could also carry out larger operations independently?
A. On the basis of this document, no.
Q. Can you give us more details about this?
A. Yes. In the first documents, there is a request by the subordinate of Kammerhofer, von Samen in Esseg and this inquiry reads that the police forces from the competent security area of von Samen should be put into action in another area.
Therefore it can easily be explained that for this reason he had to get the approval of his superior Kammerhofer and on the contrary the fact that in larger operations the Wehrmacht was the leading personality in these things can be seen from the fact that the Wehrmacht asked him to put police forces outside his area into action. He only refused to do it because he had first of all to get the approval he did not refuse on principle but only because he had to get the approval because Kammerhofer had to know where his formations were assigned.
Q. And you say the same thing about Croatia?
A. Yes.
Q. And now I show you a document as before, Document No. 16, Exhibit 10. Please read this entry here (indicating).
A. I can't find a date here at all. Is it the same operation?
Q. Well, here it refers to the 11th of November. That is therefore another operation.
A. The operation of the police is to be regarded as a failure since the bandits, in spite of their losses, have maintained themselves, It must now be urged that police forces only carry out larger operations after having informed the Wehrmacht.
Q. And this brings me to another point. Did you ever talk to General Dehner in Croatia?
A. No.
Q. Witness, you said that the reports had to be true.
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Is it correct that the greater part of the reports were not true?
A. You mean from the generals?
Q. No, I mean any reports, all the reports, quite generally from the Wehrmacht and the SS.
A. No, of course not. It is impossible.
Q. Did you read Himmler's speech in Posen in 1943?
A. 1943, no.
Q. You never heard Himmler's speech in Posen?
A. No, 1943, no!
Q. Did you hear any speech by Himmler in Posen?
A. Yes, in 1942.
Q. Well when in 1942, when all the Gruppenfuehrers were present?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I show you this speech. It is Document PS-1919, to which I give the number Dehner 55 for identification. I can only submit it as an exhibit when I have received the translation. Please read to us what-
MR. FULKERSON: I was under the impression the case had been closed and it seems to me that this is certainly not the proper time for them to be putting in new evidence.
DR. GAWLIK: This is checking the credibility of the testimony of this witness.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: If the evidence is proper in rebuttal, it will of course be received. Of course we do not know what it is yet. So, for the time being the objection will be overruled.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Please tell us whether that is the truth. Please read, Witness.
A. Well Himmler held a speech there and he always....
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Just a minute, please, Dr. Gawlik. Let's have just one of you talking at a time, please.
Q. Please read it and tell us whether it is true.
A. Well, they are just general statements.
Q. Please read it.
A. Heading, "The Truth." And before that it was "The Bravery." I now come to a fourth virtue, which is very rare in Germany, speaking the truth. One of the greatest evils which has been disseminated in the war is untruth in reports and statements by subordinate officers in civilian life, in the State, and in the Party, and in the Wehrmacht, which these people make to their superior officers. The report is the basis for every decision. Things are like this now: that in war in many places one can assume that ninety-five percent of all reports are untrue, or only half true, or only half correct.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
DR. WEISSGERBER: Dr. Weissgerber for the defendant Speidel.
BY DR. WEISSGERBER:
Q. Witness, when did you visit the Higher SS and Police Leader Schimana in Athens?
A. I assume in October. You observe that it takes some thinking it over. I do not know for sure.
Q. And which year?
A. 1943.
Q. Was your visit an official one?
A. No.
Q. Then I would like to ask you to state, quite briefly, what the purpose of your visit was?
A. I was in Belgrade and I have already stated that I knew Schimana and of course if you are in Belgrade then you would like to go to Athens once and I flew back again on the next day.
Q. Well, then, it was a visit according to the slogan "Every one should see Athens once"?
A. Yes, that is right, of course I also wanted to, well I saw Athens once!
Q. And were you in Athens again afterwards?
A. No.
Q. Witness, in direct examination you talked about the service regulations of the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece. When did you read this service regulations for the first time?
A. My service regulation was the same. Every Higher SS and Police Leader had it, those were general service regulations. They were mostly the same. They were just sort of little deviations according to the localities, but on the whole service regulations that is the written ones were mostly all the same.
Q. Would you say that applies to all the SS and Police Leaders, in the east, in the north, and in all the theaters of war, and in all the occupied territories?
A. Well, in general they were all the same and then there were various additions according to the territory concerned.
Q. Did you ever see the service regulation at all for the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece and did you read it?
A. Well, I certainly received them and I know mine of course and because I myself was the Higher SS and Police Leader for Central Russia.
Q. If you have just said, "I know my own service regulation," then you mean with this the service regulations for the Higher SS and Police Leader, Army Group Center.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, then, my question still has not been answered and therefore I put it for the third time. Did you ever see the service regulation for the Higher SS and Police Leader, Greece, and did you read them?
A. Yes, I did that.
Q. You also read it?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. When did you read these service regulations for the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece for the last time?
A. Well, I read it at that time and a few things have been shown to me during the interrogation.
Q. What do you mean by "at that time"?
A. Well, at the end, I mean last of all I assume when I was with Schimana in Athens. He was very proud about it. It was a great jump upwards for him at that time and he had been making continuous complaints with Himmler and had always been unlucky.
Q. Then you say that you read these service regulations for the Higher SS and Police Leader with Schimana in Athens.
A. Well, or with my staff. I don't remember exactly, but I certainly received or read them.
Q. Well then you mean with your staff in Berlin?
A. No, I was never in Berlin. My working staff was near the Fuehrers Headquarters in East Prussia.
Q. Do you remember what was the date of this service regulation?
A. No.
Q. You have just mentioned that during your interrogation of your interrogations you were shown this service regulation. Did that also happen during your interrogation yesterday?
A. No, I wasn't asked about these things yesterday, at the end, only about Ruma and then about something else which doesn't concern this trial.
Q. That was in one of your other interrogations that you were asked about this?
A. Yes. Last week.
Q. Last week I see. And which part of this service regulation was read to you at that time, or were you able to read the service regulation yourself?
A. No, I was not allowed to read it myself, but I kept on getting questions, I think one calls it leading questions, or whatever they are called, in order to find out whatever I knew about the regulations.
Q. Well, then, you didn't know whether the document which you were shown was the same as the original. You couldn't check that. Could you?
A. Well, he either shook his head or nodded his head, but I had the impression that I knew more or less what it was.
Q. Well, that is your only reason for the assumption that your testimony corresponded with the document.
A. Well, Doctor during an interrogation I can tell you whether the interrogator is.....
Q. Is satisfied or not?
A. Whether he was of the same opinion or not.
Q. You mean satisfied? Well now another question. At that time did you visit the commander of Army Group E in Salonika?
A. No, no.
Q. Witness, can you still tell me today, since you knew it last week, since you saw them last week, what was contained in the service regulations for the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece about the band warfare?
A. Well, the, of course Doctor you must put questions the same as the interrogator did so that I can say yes or no or it was like this. I don't know it by heart.
Q. You have just said that your knowledge about the tasks regarding the band warfare of the Higher SS and Police Leader -
A. Yes, yes, but it takes a little bit of time. I must think about the regulations a bit, first of all.
Q. Pray do!
A. It was very clearly expressed in these regulations, first of all, that the Higher SS and Police Leader -
Q. Witness, please limit yourself to the question which I have put to you. My question only concerns the tasks of the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece regarding band warfare.
A. Well, I thought the whole regulation -
Q No, only band warfare.
A But the regulations aren't only about band warfare.
Q But my question is.
A I misunderstood you, I am sorry. With regard to the combatting of the bands according to the regulations Schimana should, according to the regulations as was usual in other territories, Schimana was to receive his own territory and this territory should be delegated to him by the territorial commander and the same things happened to all the Higher SS and Police Leaders and this in area of his he should be responsible to the territorial commander and in all the authorization for the Higher SS and Police headers it states that this regulation was issued with the agreement of the OKW, discussions between Himmler and the OKW, and that the needs of the Wehrmacht should have priority, but that the Higher SS and Police Leader should belong to the staff -
Q Witness, I only asked you about band warfare.
A Well, that is all.
Q Witness, who in Greece was in charge, as far as orders were concerned, of band warfare?
A Well, I can't say that from my own knowledge who was in charge of it. It was probably the same as everywhere. Various formations took part in the band warfare. If you ask me who had the responsibility, then of course it is different, I did not understand you, I don't know what you mean by in charge!
Q What is contained in the service regulation for the Higher SS and Police Leader about the responsibility with regard to the carrying out of the band warfare by the Higher SS and Police Leader?
A Of course like every divisional commander who carried out an operation of which he is in charge is responsible to his Wehrmacht commander, so was the responsible, of course - responsible there can't be any doubt about it - exactly the same as in Warsaw I was responsible to the Army. I was responsible personally, and I am still responsible today.
Q Is that contained in the service regulation? That the Higher SS and Police Leader is responsible to the military commander of Greece?
A Well, I don't know the text, but it must contain something on those lines.
Q Witness, do you know any details about the tactical chains of command in the Balkans?
AAs far as the high agencies were concerned, yes, I can.
Q Did you ever find out about the channels of command, the tactical chains of command, with Group E in the Balkan Area?
A Not with the Army Group itself in Salonika, but in the area.
Q Did you find out yourself from the Army Group?
A No.
Q And now, Witness, my last question. The Chief of the general staff of Army Group E has stated here under oath that General Speidel had nothing to do with band warfare and that the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece received his commissions as regards band warfare from Army Group E, are you of the opinion -
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor please, if counsel is going to make a statement like that I think he should submit the actual affidavit ti the witness so that the witness can see in what context the statement was made.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: We will hear the question first and rule after the question is complete.
BY DR. WEISSGERBER:
Q Witness, do you think that the Chief of Army Group E knew less about the chains of command in Greece that you did?
A No, of course not. I don't think that at all. Of course he knew more about it.
DR. WEISSGERBER: Thank you. I have no further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Any further cross examination of this witness
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Dr. Mueller-Torgow for General Felmy.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Witness, what was the name of the corps to which you belonged in 1944, after you had been chief of the antipartisan warfare units?
A The corps was called the 14th SS Corps and later on the 10th.
Q Was there any other corps of which you were in charge?
A Yes, at the end the Oder Corps.
Q Did you not talk about a corps called Bach?
A No, that is the Warsaw Corps.
Q What was the official name of this Corps?
A Officially it is called Corps von dem Bach. The official name in the organization of the Wehrmacht. it was submitted to me during the Warsaw trial and this official schedule of organization therein was designated with the corps flag as Corps Bach.
Q Well, and that doesn't mean Corps von dem Bach-Zelewski?
A No.
Q Witness is it correct that during the War you refused to be called Bach-Zelewski?
A No, that was a long time before the War.
Q You refused?
A Not refused, well I will talk about that. You will remember that Field Marshal von Hindenburg, the Reich President, also had two names von Benchendorf and von Hindenburg and he only called himself von Hindenburg and not von Benchendorf. And in my family I also had two names. And for a time I did not called myself Bach-Zelewski but for a time I only called myself von Zelewski. I can do that with the same right because formerly the heraldy office decided about that and formerly it could sign my name both von Zelewski and also von Bach. But as far as citizenship is concerned, I was called BachZelewski. and for some time, perhaps about five weeks, I only signed myself von Bach. And I wouldn't have put down Bach-Zelewski except that in the american questionnaire it stated, "Please all your names."
And I wanted to avoid that one could say, why didn't you give all your names.
Q That means you often changed your names?
A No, I was always called von dem Bach-Zelewski.
Q Well, at various periods you called yourself differently.
A No. Since the Fifteenth Century, we have been von dem BachZelewski; and it is not my fault if people called me different things at different times, if they shortened my name.
Q You always used the name von dem Bach-Zelewski?
A Well, I do not know what you are trying to get at, but I must tell you the following. The brother of my father was the first commander of the German Protection Troop under Dr. Karl Peters. After the last war, the monument of von Zelewski which after the first world war was destroyed, was built up again by the English in memory of this man the monument is called von Zelewski monument.
Q I didn't ask you that.
AAnd one of Schill's officers was also called von Zelewski and some are called Bach, but it is not the same name.
Q But you insany case called yourself Bach-Zelewski and also always signed yourself Bach-Zelewski, or did you not?
A No, mostly my orders were signed only von dem Bach.
Q And how do you sign yourself now?
A Mostly I sign myself von dem Bach and sometimes von dem Bach-Zelewski. In documents, in official documents, Doctor, I must sign my full name, but orders I can sign von Bach as I want to.
Q Witness, you do not know anything about an extradiction order of Poland?
A No.
Q Even in view of the fact that it was announced in the press and on the radio a short time ago?
A Well, we have no radio.
Q I mean, you also didn't hear anything about it?
A No.
Q Witness, as far as I can remember, from about January 1943 until January 1944, you were chief of the antipartisan warfare units, is that correct?
A Please, would you repeat the time again?
Q From January 1943 until about January 1944.
A Yes, about one year.
Q One year?
A Well, the commission was never rescinded formally. I could also be made responsible for everything while I was at the front.
Q And in this capacity you were subordinate directly to Himmler?
A Yes.
Q And Himmler was immediately responsible to Hitler?
A Yes.
Q Well, then, am I wrong in assuming that if I say you enjoyed Hitler's particular confidence during this time?
A Hitler's yes; but Himmler's no. Because in 1935 I was already arrested by Himmler and sent to Berlin in a special aircraft and in the main trial this was already talked about in the case against Schacht, if I may point that out.
Q That is, you enjoyed the confidence of Hitler?
A Yes, Hitler, not Himmler.
Q Well, I do not mean as a general but as chief of the AntiPartisan warfare.
A I was never with during that period.
Q I mean with Himmler.
A Yes, with Himmler.
Q How often?
A Well, whenever I came back. It changed. When nothing was going on.
Perhaps once a week. It was very difficult to get to Himmler, but quite often, twice following, and then perhaps for a whole month not at all. Anyway in 1943 I was with him.
Q In spite of what you just said about contradictions.
A Well, it was quite usual. There were contradictions and oppositions all over the place.
Q Well, then you do know why exactly you were chosen to be chief of the antipartisan warfare units?
A Well, I can tell you that. I am very glad you asked me about it. General von Schenkendorf sent me personally in the second half of 1942 to Wagner, chief of the security. General Quartermaster Wagner belonged to the OKW as well as the OKH and had very many responsibilities as regards band warfare and Schenkendorf in his reports asked that a central agency of the army should be set up, which should finally standardize the whole thing and I of course signed this agreement with Wagner and it went as follows.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
I was chief of the antipartisan warfare under the chief of the general staff at that time was Zeitzler, and I should get, as chief of staff, a colonel or a brigadier general of the Army, and this agreement which was already completed and in writing was not approved by Himmler because Himmler saw in this a restriction of his powers, if I was to be made subordinate to the Chief of the General Staff of the Army. That is how I became the chief. In my service regulation, which must be in the files somewhere, it states expressly that as chief of the antipartisan warfare units I could only command operations on very definite occasions, that is at the adjacent points.
Q Witness, may I show you one passage from the Posen speech which has already been quoted. Please read the last paragraph.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, is it being put in for the purpose of refreshing his memory or is it being put in to get it into the record by Defense Counsel at a time when they were not to offer any more material of that kind?
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: What is the purpose of reading this exhibit, Dr. Mueller-Torgow?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: I want to prove, Your Honor, that the Reichsfuehrer SS was competent for the band warfare. That can be seen from the speech. In addition, this is to shake the credibility of the witness.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the objection is good. It will be sustained.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Witness, you said in your direct examination that according to your view the reprisal measures had the effect that the partisan movement increased; is that correct?
A Excuse me, Doctor. I am still thinking about the document I just read. I would like very much to say something about that document.
Q I am afraid it isn't possible. Did you understand my question?
A No. Please would you repeat it? I have to change my mind Court No. V, Case No. VII.
completely.
Q As far as I remember, you said that according to your opinion reprisal measures had the effect that the partisan movement increased; is that correct?
A Yes, and that is also my opinion today.
Q Did you, therefore, for that reason, personally think that reprisal measures were wrong?
A Yes, reprisal measures were wrong, of course.
Q Well, you thought they were wrong, did you also state that to higher quarters?
A Yes.
Q To whom?
A To Himmler.
Q Himmler! I see and what was Himmler's answer?
A Well, I have already stated that here in the IMT trial when I said that the higher government leadership of course were not accessible to sensible and human representations and the mass representation of all the generals was missing. The pressure of a spontaneous conteraction of all of the generals would then certainly have forced Hitler to bend to these representations.
Q Therefore, then, you want to say that some kind of a resistance of an individual commander would have had no sense at all and had no sense where it was done?
A Well, Doctor, on the contrary, if every single individual had done it then of course it would be a spontaneous mass action.
Q Well, for that it would necessarily have to be jointly. Witness -
A Well, what do you mean by "jointly" -- at the moment when it starts. It started with the polish campaign, these terror orders.
Q You are avoiding my question. If a commander protests against an order which he has received from higher up as in the case when you protested regards reprisal measures to Himmler, then you say that that would have had no sense at all because these people were not accessible Court No. V, Case No. VII.