It struck me as funny.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal will take its afternoon recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Dr. Laternser.
ERICH VON DEM BACH-ZELEWSKI- (Resumed) CROSS EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, you said you have already been interrogated as a witness in three Nurnberg trials.
A Yes.
Q Did the treatment accorded you as an inmate of the Justice prison change in any way?
A No.
Q Since when have you been allowed to receive visits from your relatives?
AAlways.
Q You said "always". When was a relative of yours here for the first time to visit you?
A For the first time, in November or December 1945.
Q After your first testimony in the main trial?
A No, before that.
Q Had you already been interrogated at that time?
A Yes, I was interrogated for the first time in Freising.
Q How often do you receive visits from your relatives?
A Since they are here in the neighborhood, I have got six children and I let them all come alone, because the rules are that each one can only come again after a certain time.
Q How often do you receive visits?
A I haven't seen my wife for about two months because she is sick, but my daughter who works sometimes here in Nurnberg comes rather more often. Well, I receive visits about once a month certainly.
Q You said, during your testimony, that after the war you remained with the Army of one hundred thousand men.
A Yes.
Q How long did you remain with that army?
A Until 1924, inclusive.
Q And then you left voluntarily?
A Yes.
Q Why? That was unusual in 1924?
A No, it wasn't unusual because there are enough experts who know that at time there was a so-called limit on promotions. I was a Lieutenant for about ten years, and I had no chance of promotion. And only later on, I think from 1925 there came a large batch and suddenly there were more 1st Lieutenants than Lieutenants. And I was married, I had children, and at the time I think I got about one hundred and fifty Reichsmarks pay and I had to reckon on this for an unspecified time.
Q Was the only reason why you left voluntarily because there were less chances for promotion?
A No.
Q What were the other reasons?
A There was a family reason about which I do not wish to speak.
Q The reason why you left would play a rather important part in the judgment of you as a witness. I must ask you why you left the army?
A I assume you have read my military files.
Q No, I have not read the military files.
A Then I will not give any information about it, because they are purely family reasons.
Q Do you not want to give any statement about this because in this way you would incriminate yourself?
A No. In 1924 I wasn't in the Party and there was not even a Party to belong to.
Q With regard to the reason, is there some kind of punishable offense connected with it?
A No.
DR. LATERNSER: I would ask the Tribunal to rule whether the witness should state the reasons for his leaving the army or not.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal rules that the question is not of such materiality to the case as to require an answer.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Well, then, another point on this question. Was it some kind of dishonest action?
A No, certainly not, not at all. I have never been previously convicted. I would ask you to express yourself rather more clearly.
Q I only asked you whether this subject concerns a dishonest action?
A No. I said it was a purely family affair.
Q What did you do when you left?
A I have already said I studied agriculture.
Q When did you join the SS?
A In 1930.
Q Which SS?
A The General SS; the other was not in existence at that time.
Q And what was your rank in the General SS?
AAt that time the ranks which existed later weren't yet in force.
Q Which rank did you receive?
A Ever? Until the end of the war I was SS Obergruppenfuehrer.
Q And who promoted you in the SS?
A The Fuehrer. The higher ranks Hitler kept for himself.
Q And the other ranks?
A The lower ones? Himmler. That is, I never had them, because I said I was at once Sedtor Leader.
Q And what was your starting rank in the SS?
A Sector Leader. At that time, Dr., we didn't wear uniforms, as we did in '31 and '32. We all wore white shirts at that time and we called ourselves Sector Leaders, and that is for the sake of comparison, Oberfuehrer.
Q Were you also a member of the Waffen SS?
A Yes, later on in the war.
Q And to whom were you subordinate, as a member of the Waffen SS, as regards discipline?
A I was always subordinate to Himmler.
Q How often were you in the Balkans?
A I have previously stated -
Q I am asking you how often were you in the Balkans?
A Well, perhaps twelve or twenty times.
Q And where were you then?
A Starting from the south, I was in Athens, in Belgrade, in Ruma, in Brot, because Leuters had his combat position there, in the neighborhood of Zagreb, Laibach, Trieste, and Sarajevo.
Q Were those visits which you made there - or, did you stay there for a certain length of time?
A No, they were short inspection trips.
Q How long did you stay there, usually?
A Well, the longest time I stayed there was fourteen days.
Q And how often were you down there for fourteen days?
A Well, that was the longest period.
Q Yes, well, how often did it happen that you stayed there for fourteen days?
A I said, once.
Q Once for fourteen days?
A Yes.
Q And the other time?
A Well, they were always much shorter; perhaps I stayed there for one night or two nights.
Q One night or two nights. That was in the majority?
A Yes, that was in the majority.
Q Well, then, when you say twelve to twenty times, how often were you there about one or two nights?
A Well, about two-thirds staying there for two nights and onethird for more days.
Q And when were you there for the first time?
A I was there for the first time in the first four months of 1943.
Q The first four months of 1943?
A Yes, it must have been about April or May.
DR. LATERNSER: Then I have no further questions, Your Honor, and would ask that this testimony cannot be charged against Field Marshal List, because the witness only came to the Balkans when Field Marshal List had left his service in the Balkans for over one year. I have no further questions.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Dr. Rauschenbach for the defendant Foertsch.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Witness, I only have one question with regard to the Ruma case. You said that you flew to Ruma in order to find out about the conduct of the First Cossack Division. Were you there on your own initiative or did you receive an order to fly there?
A I received this report from Himmler. I do not remember today whether I wanted to go on my own initiative to see the operation or whether he said I should go and then I went. I do not remember any more today.
Q Did you inform the Commander in Chief of the whole Southeastern area and the superior corps commanders, the commanding general that you were there?
A Yes, I sent them a teletype to tell them I was coming, otherwise they wouldn't have been there.
Q Who wouldn't have been there?
A Well, von Pannwitz, who came to the airfield to meet me. Then I was in Belgrade and made visits there. I was with the commander in chief there, General Field Marshal von Weichs.
Q Did you have a conference with General Foertsch, whom I represent here?
A I only know General Foertsch from peacetime. I think I saw him once or twice, but I did not see him during the war at all.
Q You told us that between the office of the chief of the AntiPartisan Warfare Units and the OKW there was close cooperation and agreement. Did you take part in conferences together with representatives of the OKW and with representatives of the local commanders from the South East?
A You mean from below to above? No, no.
Q One other question, Witness, with regard to the military jurisdiction. I think we must get something straight. I give you the example that an SS Division was subordinate to an Army Corps. Was the Commanding-General of the Army supremo judicial authority or judicial authority in the second instance for this SS division?
A No, he was not.
Q Did he have anything at all to do with the military jurisdiction and the decisions which were taken by the military courts of the SS?
A Well, they could ask them to be submitted.
Q What kind of military courts did the SS Divisions have?
A Exactly the same as with the Army Divisions. There were proper judges there.
Q What do you mean "exactly the same"? They were SS courts?
A Well, they were professional lawyers there. Professional legal men.
Q And did they belong to the Wehrmacht or the SS?
A No, they wore SS uniforms. They belonged of course to the SS.
Q Did you find anything else out about the so-called SS jurisdiction military jurisdiction? To whom then did the decisions made by an SS military court go?
A Well, it depends on what the reason for them was.
Q Well, they originated from the judicial authority of the Division.
A On his own authority? Well, in this case, of course, they went to Himmler.
Q They went to Himmler, -- and was there also a supreme court for the SS?
A Yes.
Q Wat that a court of the Wehrmacht or the SS?
A No, I have already said that was the Supreme Military Court of the SS.
Q Then I have no further questions.
DR. MENZEL: Dr. Menzel for General Kuntze. May it please the Tribunal, I have no questions to ask the witness, since the witness, according to his testimony, only arrived in May, 1943, in the Balkans. But as defense counsel for General Kuntze, I would like to make the express request that the testimony of this witness be not regarded as incriminating General Kuntze, because General Kuntze left the Balkans, already at the beginning of August, 1942, and this witness only arrived for the first time in April or May, 1943 in the Balkans, and from then onwards, -- (if at all during these short visits,) -- he could only from then onwards gain a picture of the conditions there.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER: Dr. Sauter for the defendants Lanz and Geitner. Witness, you have previously testified about an operation "Cornflower" for which in your opinion the Wehrmacht was responsible, and you have also told us about a Lieutenant-Colonel Korn, after whom this operation was named, which seemed rather strange to you. Who was then this man Korn?
A Korn was a professional policeman who during the Weimar Republic was already a staff officer. He then was assigned during the war in the anti-partisan warfare. First of all, as commander of a Battalion. And then, as I was at the time in Russia under General Schenkendorf, he was temporarily my 1-A, so that I knew him personally. Within the scope of the general orders from Himmler in 1943, regarding to the fact that every SS and Police leader had an expert staff, that is an operational staff of men who could command troops militarily, he was sent down by the chief of the regular police in order to set up this operational staff.
Q What had he been with the police formerly? Before he came to the SS? You said he was with the police?
A Well, he was here in Baden Baden, a proper professional policeman.
Q Well, a professional policeman can be a General or an ordinary man.
A Well, originally he was a Major. Of course, I can't remember his files accurately, but I think in the revoluation in 1933 he was already Captain, or a Major of the police. A professional policeman of long-standing.
Q And then when he came down to Ruma, was he a member of the Wehrmacht there or a member of the police?
A Well, he was exactly subordinate, I remember, to the Commander of the Regular Police from Croatia -- was in his turn subordinate to Kammenhofer. This Commander was at that time a Colonel Balewski.
Q I am not interested in that. I am only interested in what kind of uniform this man Korn wore.
A He always wore a police uniform.
Q Police or SS uniform?
A No, I don't think he had the right to wear a SS uniform. He always wore a police uniform.
Q Not Wehrmacht uniform?
A No, not Wehrmacht uniform.
Q Why do you think then, Witness, that the Wehrmacht would give an operation which they undertook the name of a policeman? Cornflower?
A Excuse me, I object to that. I didn't say that it was called after him, but I explained how I remembered the two "corns". It couldn't possibly have been called after him, because the name "Cornflower" was given about fourteen days or three weeks before Korn arrived in Croatia, and the operation had already started, but that is what I noticed particularly in the reports.
Q Did you meet a General Geitner?
A No. Well, at the moment I really can't remember. I don't think I would recognize him again.
Q But you were repeatedly in Belgrade?
A In Belgrade?
Q Yes, in Belgrade?
A Yes, I was in Belgrade.
Q In an official capacity, not for pleasure?
A Well, of course, -- naturally I was there officially in order to find out what was going on.
Q Well, then, didn't you go then to the Commander and the Commanding-General of Serbia when you were there?
A Yes.
Q I am asking you, witness, because I said to myself, "Well, of course, that would be the most obvious thing to do if you wanted to find out what was going on?"
A Yes, of course, I went to him to get some information, merely because I was not superior in the South East. I hadn't the power of command, I was merely more or less the chief who dealt with the matter. Of course, I didn't make the formal visits with this man and with that man, but I went in a sort of unofficial capacity and talked to all the responsible people there and met them all with Obergruppenfuhrer Meissner. We had a regular pleasant evening. There was General Felber, another general and General Bader.
Q And who?
A General Bader. I remember that name quite definitely.
Q You personally met General Felber?
A Yes, I spent the whole evening together with him.
Q Did you talk with General Felber about reprisal measures and about the experiences which he as Commanding-General and Commander in Serbia had in this sphere?
A Well, it was like this. My impression was that of harmony and friendship. We had good food and we had drinks, and, of course, there were toasts, and we talked shop but I can't remember details about it. Of course we talked about everything.
Q You talked about what?
A We talked about everything which happened in the area which was of interest.
Q But you didn!t go to General Felber's office and, talk for instance, with the Chief of Staff about official matters and about his experiences?
A No. You may doubt it today, but at that time in any case I felt myself officially so much higher than he was that I didn't talk to him officially but only to the Military Commander, one Wehrmacht Commander.
Q But then your conversations with the Commander-In-Chief consisted merely of a very nice dinner?
A Well, during a whole evening one can talk about everything.
Q Witness, did yon think that a conversation during dinner was sufficient in order to inform yourself about the necessity or about the effect of reprisal measures?
A Doctor, I received all the reports from General Felber and I read them.
Q Please answer my question, and I will come back again to this point later on. Do you think that a conversation during a good dinner was sufficient in order to inform yourself about the difficult problem of reprisal measures?
A I believe that it was exactly the opposite. The men found out things from me about the intentions of higher quarters. For instance, I could tell them how things were in the East.
I think I at any rate found out more at that time than Mr. Felber.
JUDGE BURKE: The conversation, I take it, was obiquitous.
Q You have told us, Witness, that the reprisal measures which were carried out had the effect of increasing the partisan movement?
A Yes.
Q Did you ascertain that from the reports which you received?
A Yes, and also mainly on the basis of the complaints made by the responsible people down there, who were of the same opinion.
Q Can you tell us which people complained in that sense? I stress "in that sense" that responsible people said that too many reprisal measures were being carried out? Who said that and who signed these statements?
A Protests came in continually. Of course, I can only remember protests from men with whom I worked for a long time. For instance, General Schenkendorf -- I read his protest myself.
Q But not in the Balkans?
A No.
Q Tell us people in Serbia, for instance with the Commander in Serbia? Did any of them protest in that way, and, if so, please tell me the names. That is what we want to hear.
A Well, I have stated that that was general there. I can't remember individual memoranda, and say that he did this or he said that. I really can't remember without the documents.
Q. Witness, but you have just said that protests came in continually. Then please tell me the name of one man who from the Balkan area, especially from Serbia, protested against this fact, and maintained that the reprisal measures contributed to the fact that the partisan movement was increasing.
A Yes, that was the impression I had from these discussions with General Felber, and with Mr. Meissner in his flat.
Q During the dinner?
A Well, the dinner took place afterwards. Excuse me, Dr., I don't eat all day long.
Q Can you tell me another man? Felber we have already had here as witness, but can you tell me the name of another man who in that sense at that time, in Belgrade or anywhere else in the Serbian area stated anything about this to you?
A Of course, I reported officially to the man I should report to and that was Field Marshall Weichs, who received me and showed me a map with the whole position and described everything to me and me talked about it.
Q Witness, do you really want to maintain here that General Field Marshall Milch -- Weichs told you that because of these reprisal measures, which were being carried out down here, the partisan movement was increasing? Do you want really to -- please wait a minute, witness.
A Doctor, I think are are both talking about different things. I am telling you that I can't say that in detail. I never asserted that I can say here on such and such a date, such and such a thing was said. I can only report about my general impression. No one can say today that in 1943 an individual really said such and such a thing.
Q. Can you tell me another name?
A. Well Felber we have already had here as a witness--he is always available.
Q. But can you tell me the name of another man who in that sense at that time in Belgrade or anywhere else in the Serbian area stated anything about this?
A. Of course, I reported officially to the man I should report to according to my rank and that was the C. in C. Fieldmarshal von Weichs who received me and showed me a map with the whole position and talked to me about it.
Q. Witness, do you really want to maintain here under oath that General Fieldmarshal Weichs, told you that because of these reprisal measures which are being carried out down here, the partisan movement is increasing? Do you really want to say that please wait a minute.
A. Doctor, I think we are both talking about different things, I am telling you that I can't say that in detail. I never asserted that I can say here on such and such a date, such and such a thing was said. I can only report about my general impression. No one can say things today about 1943, that an individual really said such and such a thing.
Q. Witness, you have maintained here repeatedly that from the reports you could see that the--or from some other source you could see that the reprisal measures did not cause a decrease but an increase in the partisan movement. I don't believe you and that is why I am asking you what sort of evidence you can show for this. If you maintain that General Fieldmarshal Weichs told you that, then we can examine him as a witness.
A. Doctor, I said that I know that from the original ten-day and monthly reports which I received and I must state as a basis if; for instance an area - or let's say Ruma, if before the operation it is quite obvious from the reports that in the week there were few blastings and after the operation there are twenty blastings, then I must conclude from that that there has been an increase in the partisan movement and that is how I collected my experience.
With regard to the conference, I can express myself quite clearly; with regard to details, I really cannot say anything any more.
Q. I see you cannot say anything about that. Well, in the reports to which you are referring, did these reports contain anything to the effect that the people who compiled the reports--for instance, Brigadier General von Geitner or General Felber--were also of the opinion that the increase of the partisan movement depended on such reprisal measures or did these reports give other reasons as to why the partisan movement temporarily increased?
A. Doctor, in these ten-day and monthly reports which I received already from another office, that is from the OKW, the name of the man who wrote the report wasn't contained and therefore I can't say that the report came from Herr Geitner or from Herr Felber or that it is an opinion of an army group or an opinion of lower commander, whose report was passed on accidentally, but I only evaluated the reports with regard to the whole situation map and then I had to say that this area here, for instance in pink, is a partisan suspect area and that later I have to draw that area in red showing it as a purely partisan area. I could only establish these reasons in general and these determinations which I found out from statistics were confirmed by the later reports which we exchanged; reports came in monthly in tens of thousands and memoranda also in thousands. I really can't say now that this man said such and such a thing.
Q. The reports which you received about which you are just now talking--were they merely from the OKW or were they for instance also from the army group or from the Commanding General?
A. Well, how the technical channel with the OKW was organized, whether the army group reported directly, I really don't know because for that area I received it from the Wehrmacht Operational Staff who exchanged reports with my men. I had my own Ia. How the channel was, how the report got there, I really don't know.
Q. Well, you received the reports. From the reports you could see from whom the report originated, the reports which you received. From whom did these reports originate?
A. These reports contained the words - Corps, Division - well at the beginning of the report was always the division. The divisions made the report, sent it to the Corps, the Corps sent it to the army, etc.
Q. And was there ever anything in the reports about the fact that the office which was reporting was of the opinion that the partisan movement was increasing because of the reprisal measures? Was that contained in the reports?
A. Doctor, I really don't understand your question because.....
Q. Well my question is quite clear.
A. Well the indignation about these reprisal measures was quite general. It was terrific indignation because the aim wasn't reached.
Q. Whom do you mean by quite general?
A. Well, all the men I spoke to. It was general indignation.
Q. For instance, you saw General Fieldmarshal von Weichs. Was he also indignant?
A. Yes, of course he kept on saying "I must have troops. I can't do anything about it without troops." They were all asking for troops because they said "These reprisal measures aren't any good alone it makes for more partisans. I must have troops, troops, troops, I wanted to have the troops for the East. I was angry about every single Police Regiment which I had to send to the South East. I had to look after police measures.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Just a minute, please, Dr. Sauter. I think we'd better slow this down a little bit just in fairness to the interpreter. It is very hard for them to keep up when the questions and answers come so close together.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, certainly, your Honor, but it doesn't depend on me, your Honor. It is the witness who can't give a clear answer.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, well I will ask you another question. Perhaps you can give a clear answer to this. Are you the same Bach-Zelewski who took part in the bombardment of Warsaw?
A. Bombardment--that is a wrong expression.
Q. What was it then?
A. Well you also know the Wehrmacht report. I crushed the insurrection in two months' fighting and my troops had ten thousand dead and the Polish Attorney General had said "How is it possible that you rescinded a Fuehrer order? How is it possible that there and there you had a Brigade Commander shot according to court martial without loosing your life? This is quite clear I think.
Q. Has not the Polish Government asked for extradition?
A. I do not know.
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, may I ask Dr. Sauter that he--I am probably committing the same mistake, but the he also waits until the witness has finished before he asks the next questions, so we get the witness's testimony into the record?
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think we ought to slow the questions down a little bit and consequently maybe the answers will slow down a little bit, and we can get along a little better here. I ask both of you to give a slight pause after each question and answer.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Well then, what sort of operation was it then, witness, about which we are just speaking?
A. We were talking about Warsaw and I must stress here, Doctor, that when you say we want to push something off the shoulders of the SS. I bear the responsibility for my corps in Warsaw then and today and when I was in command of troops I bear all the responsibility. That is a matter of course, because you will know that I am the only general who in Krakau, in the presence of--all the generals and the civil administration in the presence of all SS leaders, that is contained in the pleas of the IMT Trial.
....
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Just a moment please. Please advise the witness to give attention to the lights and not to proceed when the light is on.
MR. RAPP: Witness, would you please speak slowly, pay attention to the lights, and make a pause? Otherwise, all your testimony as far as the record is concerned, will be lost.
A. I wasn't quite finished, Doctor. In the same week, I - when Poland was first of all declared to be a band area, that was also in 1943, in this meeting which I mentioned, the whole policy in this area was criticized by me. Please read it in Franck's diary.
Q. I know about that very well witness, I am only interested in the operation about which we are now speaking. That was the fighting-against the insurrection in Warsaw.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, please Dr. Sauter. I do not wish to intrude on Judge Carter who is presiding here today, but it seems to me that we are getting, although I am not familiar with European geography probably sufficiently as I should---about 1500 miles away from the subject matter.
DR. SAUTER: I don't know whether your figure is correct, at the moment, your Honor. It could be. Perhaps it is even more, but I am interested in finding out from the witness how he himself acted in such a case and therefore that is why I want to hear from him! How many dead there were amongst the Poles during your operation in Warsaw--approximately.
A. You know that the enemy dead in a house-to-house-fight floorto-floor cannot be counted. I don't know how the enemy estimates it but I would only like to say that at that time, as Commanding General under the 9th Army under the Generals von Bormann and von Mettwitz, from whom I received my orders, I fought under them.
Q. I am not interested in what the names of the German generals were, generals to whom you are now trying to push the guilt. I am only interested to know how many Polish victims you estimated yourself at that time.
A. I really don't know. I only know my own losses and as I have already said, they were 10,000 dead.
Q. And the Polish estimate was?
A. Of course much higher because I had artillery and they hadn't.
Q. And witness, you also don't know how high you estimated these Polish losses during the Hitler time? How they were estimated at that time when you made your reports.
A. Have you read the reports?
Q. Yes, we received the reports from time to time.
A. Then, Doctor, you will also know that I was the first German general who called the partisans "belligerents," and on my own authority rescinded the Hitler order and had the Brigade Fuehrer Kaminski shot after summary court martial.
Q. But until 1945 you remained as SS Obergruppenfuehrer still, didn't you?
Q. Yes, by all means!
DR. SAUTER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Dr. Fritsch for General Rendulic. Witness, I think I only have one question. I am interested in the following. In October, 1943, you were in Ruma. I am coming back to this Ruma affair. At that time, you had to institute investigations about incidents which took place with the Cossack Division, about incidents which we are not interested in the detail here at the moment, but these investigations which you made in the army were carried out in the army area of the Second Army. You were asked by the prosecution who, at that time, was Wehrmacht Commander, who was in charge of the troops etc.