Q. What units were engaged in this operation aside from the First Cossack Division?
A. As far as I remember, there were, apart from the Cossack Division which was rather strong -- I believe it comprised two brigades -- Kammerhofer had one brigade subordinate to him -- so I happen to know there were two or three brigades -- at least it was a very strong division; apart from this division, there were three battalions from the police, one so-called active police battalion -- it was a battalion which already existed and one which Kammerhofer's neighbor, Meizner, had put at his disposal from Belgrade, two battalions came from the area Belgrade - -
DR. LATERNSER: If your Honors please, all that is hearsay; all of it is hearsay.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: If seems that he could answer that question in much shorter language.
MR. FULKERSON: I agree, if your Honors please.
Q. Just sum this up. Now you have named two outfits already, if I understood you correctly: The police and the First Cossack Division. Now, what other outfits were engaged in this operation?
A. Units of this infantry division which had its command post in Ruma, tanks and artillery, engineers and possibly some infantry -I don't know that for sure -- but because I myself was sent subsequently with the General of the railway troops, because I was very interested in this operation -- that is General Schwarzenecker, whom I knew from Russia -- he was the man who was in command of these railway security units -- this railway security unit also participated in the operation.
DR. LATERNSER: If your Honors please, I point out again that all this is hearsay. I object.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Overruled.
Q Who was in charge of the operation at the time you were there?
A Brigadier General von Pannwitz.
Q Do you happen to know to what corps the First Cossack Division was subordinate at the time?
A Numerically, I can't say that any more but I do know -
DR. GAWLIK: I object. It is again cumulative evidence. Furthermore, it isn't best evidence.
MR. FULKERSON: Very well, I withdraw the question.
Q Now, General -- and I beseech you to be brief -- give us a short summary of the positions which these various units that you have named, which were involved in this operation -- give us the position which they occupied in relation to each other as the operations progressed.
DR. GAWLIK: If the Tribunal please, I object to this question as long as the witness doesn't state the basis on which information he is going to make these statements; whether he is going to relate what he heard from someone or where he gains his knowledge. The witness would first have to give information as to the basis of this statement.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Do you mind telling us what you are trying to show by this?
MR. FULKERSON: Not the least, if your Honors please. I am trying to show that this group of police troops, during this operation Kammerhofer, was completely subordinate to the Wehrmacht, that it received all its munitions from the Wehrmacht, that it received its intelligence from the Wehrmacht, that it was responsible to the Wehrmacht for everything that it did, that it received its gasoline, transports from the Wehrmacht, and that insofar as this operation is concerned it was completely absorbed into the Wehrmacht and that it is perfectly ridiculous for these defendants to say under circumstances such as these that the Wehrmacht is not responsible for what the police troops have done.
DR. GAWLIK: If the Tribunal please, today we don't even know -
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection overruled.
THE PRESIDENT: The record may show that one member of the Court has not joined in this ruling.
MR. FULKERSON: Would you please -- do you remember what the last question was?
A Yes. This operation was started from Belgrade. That is from the Southeastern direction to the Northwestern direction. It took place along the fringes of a mountain range along the Danube which is called Vukovar. The police was in the center of this newly led unit, led by Pannwitz. Its task was to mop up the mountainous area whereas the Cossack units as mounted units were to go through the plains and through the valley. The partisans were to be thrown back or annihilated. This operation was led by General von Pannwitz and, as far as material is concerned, this operation was supplied by the Wehrmacht. The supply installations of the army put the ammunition at their disposal, also took care of transportation, ie the police troops had to get there somehow. Gasoline was made available from that source and so was the food supply for the troops. The police units had been ordered exactly their provisional sources from where they had to get their material. I was able to ascertain that because Kammerhofer's operational staff -that is, the operational staff of the anti-partisan warfare -- was located in Ruma and this staff had to carry out these matters.
DR. LATERNSER: I object to the statement. The testimony should be restricted. All this is hearsay. He couldn't have been at the command post, at the munitions gasoline supply office and all these various offices. All this is purely an opinion given by the witness.
MR. FULKERSON: That answer is no more hearsay than for these defendants to. He could be as ambiguitous as they are. He couldn't have been at two places at the same time, if that is what the objection is. To a certain extent, I don't think we should go into the realities of the external world here and that seems to be almost here what counsel is trying to raise. The kind of testimony we are getting now is the same kind we have been getting for the past several months.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The objection will be overruled.
Q Now, what part did the SS and Police Leader Kammerhofer play in this operation? In the first place, was he there on the spot where it was going on?
A Yes, he was there on the spot when the operation started and he was there also on the day -- that is in the middle of the operation -when I arrived there. On that day Kammerhofer himself was in Ruma.
JUDGE BURKE: The question has been answered a couple of minutes ago.
Q Now, did Kammerhofer order the police units where to go or were the orders for the police troops so far as their tactical movements channeled through Kammerhofer or not?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. That is purely a leading question. The witness just has to avail himself one of the opportunities which are given to him in the question. He has to be asked what orders arrived and through what channel but the question must not be put in the way the prosecutor has just put it. The question has to be rejected as a leading question.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection overruled.
Q Will you please answer the question in a brief manner, please?
A The corps had ordered the three Ia's of the three divisions to its post and the order for the operation was given at the corps command post in a Croatian town the name of which I don't know any more. It is Vakuvar or something like that. There on the spot, as I know from the orders -- and the orders were shown to me -- these orders were given to the Ia, of the Police, to the Ia of the Division of Ruma and also to the Ia of the Pannwitz division.
Q Now was this liaison that you have described between the police and the Wehrmacht during this operation -- was this typical or was this an unusual situation?
A No, that was typical.
DR. GAWLIK: I object to an answer to this question. The witness is not being asked as to facts.
Furthermore, the question is too generally put.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
Q What could a Wehrmacht Corps Commander do, for example, do to prevent police units in his corps area from doing things of which he didn't approve?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. That is a hypothetical question.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Overruled.
MR. FULKERSON: Well, if it is hypothetical, it is certainly given in answer to a good deal of hypothetical testimony.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Let him answer the question.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't see any need for argument after the Court has ruled.
MR. FULKERSON: I didn't hear the ruling; I beg your pardon.
Q Would you answer the question?
A Would you please repeat the question?
Q What could a Wehrmacht Corps Commander do to prevent a police units in his corps area from doing things of which he didn't approve? What preventative measures could he take against such police units?
A The Commanding General had a number of possibilities. First of all, he could through refusing material support make the operation impossible from the start. Secondly, if such an operation had been started and was in action he had the right to have a court martial procedure against the personalities responsible.
DR. LATERNSER: If the Tribunal please, this man was never a commanding general. He was never a commanding general in the army. How can he make statements about the functions of a commanding general as an expert here?
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Overruled.
Q Was it possible for police units to carry out operations within a corps area without the knowledge and approval of the corps commander, of the Wehrmacht corps commander?
A No, the police couldn't take one step without being materially supported by the Wehrmacht and yet that material that it needed to move. They couldn't make one step, let alone fire one shot. The SS Police troops had no sources of supply themselves.
MR. FULKERSON: Take the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for defendants List and von Weichs):
Q Witness, how long have you been in Nurnberg?
A I am in Nurnberg since October 1945.
Q That is more than two years then.
A Yes.
Q Where are you in Nurnberg?
A In the jail here.
Q How often during this period of time have you been interrogated? Just make an estimate?
A Very frequently by the prosecution.
Q How often approximately?
A I estimate approximately 80 times.
Q I see.
AAnd from the defense 20 times.
Q I see, and from the defense 20 times. By what defense, by the defense of this trial?
A No, not in this trial.
Q In other trials then, and eighty times by the Prosecution.
MR. RAPP: I wonder if this can be clarified whether this refers to this trial or to others inasmuch as the witness did not testify 20 times for this trial. I would like that cleared up for the record, if you please.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think he said he hadn't been interviewed by the defense in this trial.
Q When were you interrogated the first time by the Prosecution?
A The first time, after I had been here for about three weeks.
That must have been in October or November 1945.
Q How often did you appear as a prosecution witness in the trials?
A Here in Nurnberg?
Q Altogether.
A Here in Nurnberg, this is the third trial where I appeared as prosecution witness, including the main trial.
Q You were in three trials?
A Yes.
Q Will you please name those trials?
A In the main trial against Goering, Keital and Jodl, et cetera -that is, the International Military Tribunal -- and then the trial against the SS, the Race and Settlement Office and now here.
Q In the meantime, were you at any other places to be examined as a witness?
A Yes, once I was in Warsaw.
Q What trial were you in Warsaw?
A I was there in a trial which dealt with all the leading personalities of Warsaw.
Q And when was that?
A That was in January of last year.
Q Were you prosecution witness there, too?
A I don't know that. I don't think that existed in that trial.
Q Who fetched you there?
A Polish officers.
Q When did you return here?
AAbout four weeks after that.
Q Since when are you in Nurnberg again?
A Since I returned; that is February last year.
Q When were you interrogated by the prosecution for the last time?
A Yesterday was the last time.
Q When yesterday?
A Yesterday afternoon.
Q In the evening also?
A Yes, it took quite long.
Q How long did it take?
A Well, it was dark when I returned.
Q I would like to know how long it actually took.
A You mean the interrogation?
Q Yes.
A The interrogation by the last gentleman who made the examination? It must have been about three hours.
Q From when to when, then?
A Well, I wouldn't want to tie myself down. I didn't write it down.
Q Well, approximately. You must know whether it was in afternoon or when it was.
A Well, I told you I returned to a dark cell. The lights had been turned out. It must have been ten o'clock. Maybe it was eleven. It might have been twelve.
Q You mean eleven or twelve o'clock.
A The interrogation lasted three hours.
Q Were you also interrogated in the afternoon?
A Yes, also yesterday afternoon. It might have been in the morning too; I don't remember.
Q Well, that was the second time in the evening. During any of these 80 interrogations were you ever told that you might possibly be a defendant?
A No.
Q Never?
A No.
Q Were you ever told that you might be extradicted anywhere?
A No.
Q Did you have any advantages or were you promised any advantages at any time in connection with these interrogations?
AAdvantages? No, I don't think so. I was the only one who didn't get any leave, although all generals of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS got their periods of leave. If that is supposed to be an advantage -I don't know.
Q Yesterday, during your interrogation were you told what testimony the prosecution attaches importance to?
A Well, may I be a little more detailed here?
Q Be quite brief.
A When I came in here in 1945 I was interrogated as to whether I was in Belgrade, Ruma, Trieste, Athens. All that is on file and my interrogations are always submitted during later interrogations and I was always asked again about these same visits which I paid?
Q During your interrogation yesterday were documents shown to you?
A Just a moment; I will have to think. The interrogator had a large document in front of him and there were several documents which were underlined in places. From these documents he confronted me with several passages.
Q Did he read to you?
A He read to me through an interpreter who was with him. He himself doesn't know German and I don't know English. He had an interpreter.
Q Before you were able to testify to certain details. You mentioned several code names. Were those mentioned during the interrogation?
A No, that was the other way around. They were wrong names. In the documents which he read to me there were wrong names, to the best of my recollection. There was some talk about "Aktion Kammerhofer" and I said, "That is out of the question. Such a term was never used," because I, of course read the names of such interrogations, because I had to report them.
Q How does it happen, witness, that you still know the names?
A I can tell you that exactly. The man whom I sent down there who was to inform the layman Kammerhofer, -- who in my opinion was a layman who couldn't even lead a platoon -- my man who was sent down there was a man by the name of Korn, and I was struck by the fact that the operation was called Operation "Cornflower," and that is why I remembered.
It struck me as funny.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal will take its afternoon recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Dr. Laternser.
ERICH VON DEM BACH-ZELEWSKI- (Resumed) CROSS EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, you said you have already been interrogated as a witness in three Nurnberg trials.
A Yes.
Q Did the treatment accorded you as an inmate of the Justice prison change in any way?
A No.
Q Since when have you been allowed to receive visits from your relatives?
AAlways.
Q You said "always". When was a relative of yours here for the first time to visit you?
A For the first time, in November or December 1945.
Q After your first testimony in the main trial?
A No, before that.
Q Had you already been interrogated at that time?
A Yes, I was interrogated for the first time in Freising.
Q How often do you receive visits from your relatives?
A Since they are here in the neighborhood, I have got six children and I let them all come alone, because the rules are that each one can only come again after a certain time.
Q How often do you receive visits?
A I haven't seen my wife for about two months because she is sick, but my daughter who works sometimes here in Nurnberg comes rather more often. Well, I receive visits about once a month certainly.
Q You said, during your testimony, that after the war you remained with the Army of one hundred thousand men.
A Yes.
Q How long did you remain with that army?
A Until 1924, inclusive.
Q And then you left voluntarily?
A Yes.
Q Why? That was unusual in 1924?
A No, it wasn't unusual because there are enough experts who know that at time there was a so-called limit on promotions. I was a Lieutenant for about ten years, and I had no chance of promotion. And only later on, I think from 1925 there came a large batch and suddenly there were more 1st Lieutenants than Lieutenants. And I was married, I had children, and at the time I think I got about one hundred and fifty Reichsmarks pay and I had to reckon on this for an unspecified time.
Q Was the only reason why you left voluntarily because there were less chances for promotion?
A No.
Q What were the other reasons?
A There was a family reason about which I do not wish to speak.
Q The reason why you left would play a rather important part in the judgment of you as a witness. I must ask you why you left the army?
A I assume you have read my military files.
Q No, I have not read the military files.
A Then I will not give any information about it, because they are purely family reasons.
Q Do you not want to give any statement about this because in this way you would incriminate yourself?
A No. In 1924 I wasn't in the Party and there was not even a Party to belong to.
Q With regard to the reason, is there some kind of punishable offense connected with it?
A No.
DR. LATERNSER: I would ask the Tribunal to rule whether the witness should state the reasons for his leaving the army or not.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal rules that the question is not of such materiality to the case as to require an answer.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Well, then, another point on this question. Was it some kind of dishonest action?
A No, certainly not, not at all. I have never been previously convicted. I would ask you to express yourself rather more clearly.
Q I only asked you whether this subject concerns a dishonest action?
A No. I said it was a purely family affair.
Q What did you do when you left?
A I have already said I studied agriculture.
Q When did you join the SS?
A In 1930.
Q Which SS?
A The General SS; the other was not in existence at that time.
Q And what was your rank in the General SS?
AAt that time the ranks which existed later weren't yet in force.
Q Which rank did you receive?
A Ever? Until the end of the war I was SS Obergruppenfuehrer.
Q And who promoted you in the SS?
A The Fuehrer. The higher ranks Hitler kept for himself.
Q And the other ranks?
A The lower ones? Himmler. That is, I never had them, because I said I was at once Sedtor Leader.
Q And what was your starting rank in the SS?
A Sector Leader. At that time, Dr., we didn't wear uniforms, as we did in '31 and '32. We all wore white shirts at that time and we called ourselves Sector Leaders, and that is for the sake of comparison, Oberfuehrer.
Q Were you also a member of the Waffen SS?
A Yes, later on in the war.
Q And to whom were you subordinate, as a member of the Waffen SS, as regards discipline?
A I was always subordinate to Himmler.
Q How often were you in the Balkans?
A I have previously stated -
Q I am asking you how often were you in the Balkans?
A Well, perhaps twelve or twenty times.
Q And where were you then?
A Starting from the south, I was in Athens, in Belgrade, in Ruma, in Brot, because Leuters had his combat position there, in the neighborhood of Zagreb, Laibach, Trieste, and Sarajevo.
Q Were those visits which you made there - or, did you stay there for a certain length of time?
A No, they were short inspection trips.
Q How long did you stay there, usually?
A Well, the longest time I stayed there was fourteen days.
Q And how often were you down there for fourteen days?
A Well, that was the longest period.
Q Yes, well, how often did it happen that you stayed there for fourteen days?
A I said, once.
Q Once for fourteen days?
A Yes.
Q And the other time?
A Well, they were always much shorter; perhaps I stayed there for one night or two nights.
Q One night or two nights. That was in the majority?
A Yes, that was in the majority.
Q Well, then, when you say twelve to twenty times, how often were you there about one or two nights?
A Well, about two-thirds staying there for two nights and onethird for more days.
Q And when were you there for the first time?
A I was there for the first time in the first four months of 1943.
Q The first four months of 1943?
A Yes, it must have been about April or May.
DR. LATERNSER: Then I have no further questions, Your Honor, and would ask that this testimony cannot be charged against Field Marshal List, because the witness only came to the Balkans when Field Marshal List had left his service in the Balkans for over one year. I have no further questions.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Dr. Rauschenbach for the defendant Foertsch.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Witness, I only have one question with regard to the Ruma case. You said that you flew to Ruma in order to find out about the conduct of the First Cossack Division. Were you there on your own initiative or did you receive an order to fly there?
A I received this report from Himmler. I do not remember today whether I wanted to go on my own initiative to see the operation or whether he said I should go and then I went. I do not remember any more today.
Q Did you inform the Commander in Chief of the whole Southeastern area and the superior corps commanders, the commanding general that you were there?
A Yes, I sent them a teletype to tell them I was coming, otherwise they wouldn't have been there.
Q Who wouldn't have been there?
A Well, von Pannwitz, who came to the airfield to meet me. Then I was in Belgrade and made visits there. I was with the commander in chief there, General Field Marshal von Weichs.
Q Did you have a conference with General Foertsch, whom I represent here?
A I only know General Foertsch from peacetime. I think I saw him once or twice, but I did not see him during the war at all.
Q You told us that between the office of the chief of the AntiPartisan Warfare Units and the OKW there was close cooperation and agreement. Did you take part in conferences together with representatives of the OKW and with representatives of the local commanders from the South East?
A You mean from below to above? No, no.
Q One other question, Witness, with regard to the military jurisdiction. I think we must get something straight. I give you the example that an SS Division was subordinate to an Army Corps. Was the Commanding-General of the Army supremo judicial authority or judicial authority in the second instance for this SS division?
A No, he was not.
Q Did he have anything at all to do with the military jurisdiction and the decisions which were taken by the military courts of the SS?
A Well, they could ask them to be submitted.
Q What kind of military courts did the SS Divisions have?
A Exactly the same as with the Army Divisions. There were proper judges there.
Q What do you mean "exactly the same"? They were SS courts?
A Well, they were professional lawyers there. Professional legal men.
Q And did they belong to the Wehrmacht or the SS?
A No, they wore SS uniforms. They belonged of course to the SS.
Q Did you find anything else out about the so-called SS jurisdiction military jurisdiction? To whom then did the decisions made by an SS military court go?
A Well, it depends on what the reason for them was.
Q Well, they originated from the judicial authority of the Division.
A On his own authority? Well, in this case, of course, they went to Himmler.
Q They went to Himmler, -- and was there also a supreme court for the SS?
A Yes.
Q Wat that a court of the Wehrmacht or the SS?
A No, I have already said that was the Supreme Military Court of the SS.
Q Then I have no further questions.
DR. MENZEL: Dr. Menzel for General Kuntze. May it please the Tribunal, I have no questions to ask the witness, since the witness, according to his testimony, only arrived in May, 1943, in the Balkans. But as defense counsel for General Kuntze, I would like to make the express request that the testimony of this witness be not regarded as incriminating General Kuntze, because General Kuntze left the Balkans, already at the beginning of August, 1942, and this witness only arrived for the first time in April or May, 1943 in the Balkans, and from then onwards, -- (if at all during these short visits,) -- he could only from then onwards gain a picture of the conditions there.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER: Dr. Sauter for the defendants Lanz and Geitner. Witness, you have previously testified about an operation "Cornflower" for which in your opinion the Wehrmacht was responsible, and you have also told us about a Lieutenant-Colonel Korn, after whom this operation was named, which seemed rather strange to you. Who was then this man Korn?
A Korn was a professional policeman who during the Weimar Republic was already a staff officer. He then was assigned during the war in the anti-partisan warfare. First of all, as commander of a Battalion. And then, as I was at the time in Russia under General Schenkendorf, he was temporarily my 1-A, so that I knew him personally. Within the scope of the general orders from Himmler in 1943, regarding to the fact that every SS and Police leader had an expert staff, that is an operational staff of men who could command troops militarily, he was sent down by the chief of the regular police in order to set up this operational staff.
Q What had he been with the police formerly? Before he came to the SS? You said he was with the police?
A Well, he was here in Baden Baden, a proper professional policeman.
Q Well, a professional policeman can be a General or an ordinary man.
A Well, originally he was a Major. Of course, I can't remember his files accurately, but I think in the revoluation in 1933 he was already Captain, or a Major of the police. A professional policeman of long-standing.
Q And then when he came down to Ruma, was he a member of the Wehrmacht there or a member of the police?
A Well, he was exactly subordinate, I remember, to the Commander of the Regular Police from Croatia -- was in his turn subordinate to Kammenhofer. This Commander was at that time a Colonel Balewski.
Q I am not interested in that. I am only interested in what kind of uniform this man Korn wore.
A He always wore a police uniform.
Q Police or SS uniform?
A No, I don't think he had the right to wear a SS uniform. He always wore a police uniform.
Q Not Wehrmacht uniform?
A No, not Wehrmacht uniform.
Q Why do you think then, Witness, that the Wehrmacht would give an operation which they undertook the name of a policeman? Cornflower?
A Excuse me, I object to that. I didn't say that it was called after him, but I explained how I remembered the two "corns". It couldn't possibly have been called after him, because the name "Cornflower" was given about fourteen days or three weeks before Korn arrived in Croatia, and the operation had already started, but that is what I noticed particularly in the reports.