Q Now, then, in some of these other documents we have had another confusion, apparently "between two other German words. I believe you testified that the herb "erfassen" as used in these documents you saw, just meant to be registered, to be put on a list. Is that right?
A I said that in general in the German language "erfassung" means a registration, that is, a finding out of who is present in this room. For instance, if it is wanted to find out who is present in this courtroom, then the names of the people present are "erfasst" - that is, registered.
Q Can it also be used in the sense of apprehended, as more or less synomomous with the verb "festnehmen?" (to arrest)?
A No. It means, as I said, a quite general matter. For instance, if I receive an order to "erfass" something, that is to register something, then it is left to me to decide in which form I should do this.
Q. Yes, but if you pick up a report and it says that 100 men are "erfasst" and that then they are transported away - how would you understand the word...what would you understand the word "erfasst" to mean in that connection?
A I would interpret it in the way that these people came together and then they drove away together.
Q So that if I told you that General von Leyser sat, right where you are now, with one of these documents before him, in which the language was almost exactly this - "100 men erfasst, so many other people transported or moved away" and if I told you that he talked about the 100 men as though they were arrestees and in his discussion of them actually used the German "Ord "festgenommen" you would say that he was just being very undiscriminating in his use of language?
DR. TIPP: Your Honor, I think it necessary here to tell the witness that General von Leyser actually did not quite "enfan" (grasp) the term "erfassen." He wanted to express what one means in the German language by the word "erfassen" exactly and when asked about it he said exactly the same as the witness has just said, what the witness is trying to explain.
BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q I am sure that clears up everything....But would you answer my question?
A The whole matter is certainly very interesting conversation but the most important thing is that we did not carry out this whole matter. It was carried out by the Croatians under the jurisdiction and the supervision of the legal Croatian government representatives.
Q Now I want to ask you about your interpretation about one other document and, I think to be fair, you had better have this before you. It is in Book XVI; it is document NOKW-1428, that is Page 139 of the German and 93 of the English. It is Exhibit 393.
Now, again, I realize that this was not in your division but, as I understood your testimony, you said that you could clearly distinguish between two things reported by this one sentence which says: "Thereby 20 enemy dead, (including 2 physicians). In addition 95 wounded and 6 massacred." You said that you could distinguish between two different occurrences there, first a combat action and then a general massacre.
A Yes, exactly like that.
Q Well, now, where would you make the distinction? Would you put it before the parenthesis or after the Parenthesis?
A I would make it after the brackets because the "including 2 Physicians" belongs to the 20 enemy dead. From this report I would assume that the 2 physicians amongst the 20 enemy dead had defended this hospital together with others.
Q You don't think it is a reasonable assumption that the physicians were with the sick?
A No. Otherwise they would have been Placed behind the words "in addition."
Q Now you said that this document showed you that there was an example of.
..that this was just another example of this Serb-Croat warfare - that sentence we were just talking about. Why?
A Because from my own experience I know that in general the Croats did not treat the members of their own countries who were serving with the partisans in this way and with the Serbians the same was the case.
Q You mean to way there that Tito bands wore broken down into Serb and Croat bands? That in one regiment, say, of the partisans, there would be nothing but Serbs and in the next regiment nothing but Croats?
A No, I don't actually mean that, basically, but from my own experience I can say that, for instance, the so-called 13th Band Division was almost purely a Croat division whereas, for example, the so-called 8th Band Division was almost a pure Serbian unit.
Q Well, let us talk about that 13th Partisan Division again. You described the Operation Keulenschlag and you said that your division was involved in a battle there with this division, with this 13th Partisan Division. Was the whole 392nd Croatian Infantry Division committed in that Operation Keulenschlag?
A No. We had to hold a terrific area and only a part of our units could be used for this.
Q How many men were in this 13th Partisan Division?
AAs far as I know, altogether about 3,000 to 4,000 men.
Q And when was this?
A That is, my general knowledge about the strength of enemyunits if this strength was not in existence temporarily, then they reinforced their units by forced recruitment, or by volunteers.
Q It is your opinion, then, that the strength of these partisan divisions stayed fairly stable?
A Yes. In general I didn't have any other experience. I was able to see this once when I saw an enemy brigade marching while I was in a plane and I was able to convince myself that this figure was correct.
Q So that if you saw an intelligence report as of a certain date, which stated that the strength, say, of the 7th Division - the 7th Partisan Division, was about 5,000 men, you think that you could safely assume that it would continue to be about 5,000 men?
A Yes, I assume that it would remain at that strength as long as the enemy had sufficient reserves to keep it up to that strength. But in any case I counted on this being the strength then I planned operations together with my divisional commander, in order to take the necessary measures.
Q You were talking a while ago and you mentioned that in your opinion your men were to be commended because they restrained themselves so in the face of all these provocations that they never took reprisal measures unless reprisal measures were ordered. Do you recall that?
A No. As far as I can remember now, I did not say it in this form but I said that I do not remember that apart from the one reprisal measure we carried out, other reprisal measures. It was a very great area and you will understand if today, after three years, I cannot remember every single detail. I have also gaps in my memory which I have been able to fill sometimes by means of this material.
Q So that if you made the remark that I just attributed to you, it must have been a slip of the tongue?
A I do not remember that I made the statement which you say.
Q It has been suggested here, Colonel, that if the Germans had had more troops in Croatia, reprisal measures would not have been necessary at all. Does that agree with your opinion?
A Well, I really cannot imagine that. The reprisal measures were not directed according to the number of troops available but according to the attitude of the population.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 19 November 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 19 November 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V. Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will. be order in the Courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will ascertain if all the defendants are present in the Courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in the Courtroom with the exception of the Defendant von Weichs who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Mr. Fulkersen.
WITNESS GERD KOBE - Resumed RE-CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q Witness, I have only a few more questions. One of them is on this matter of notes. I believe that you said, when originally set up to testify, that you had brought some notes here with you.
A Yes.
Q Were they the question and answer form of notes?
AA part of the questions, as well as a part of the answers, I had put down in outline form.
Q Were the questions over on the left-hand margin and the corresponding answer next to it?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q I noticed, when I looked at the script that the Witness Dr. von Besser was using, that he had some of his answers underlined in red pencil and some in blue. Did you follow the same procedure on yours?
A No.
Q You furnished the emphasis spontaneously?
6316 A
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: If any.
MR. FULKERSEN: I'm sorry, Your Honor -- if any.
BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q Now, one other question: I believe you said that you had been 13 years, all told, in the German Army -- possibly from 1932 to 1945.
A Yes, that's correct. But I didn't talk about 13 years. I only gave the dates.
Q That's right. Is it possible that your attitude towards what the German Amy did perhaps is somewhat colored by the fact that were a professional soldier in the Army for such a long time?
A My attitude arises from a large number of things. First of all, my own common sense, and then my education at home, and then my education in the Army, and finally it also comes from the fact of having lived together with my own troops, and also, of course, with the enemy, and, above all, with the population in whose area one was fighting.
Q So far as you are concerned did you see anything that the German Wehrmacht did in Croatia which was at all to be criticized from a point of view of International Law or from any other point of view?
A During the whole time, apart from a few days or weeks, I was in only our own area of deployment, and where criticism had to be made I did that on the spot, either as regards the troops or their officers, or I discussed it with my divisional commander.
Q But generally speaking you say -- Excuse me. Were you going to say something else?
A No.
Q Generally speaking, you saw absolutely nothing that could be criticized so far as the activities of the German Army towards the civilian population and towards the partisans in Croatia were concerned?
A I didn't quite understand the first half of the sentence. One word, I don't know whether it was "said" or "was." (THE ENGLISH-GERMAN COURT INTERPRETER REPEATS THE QUESTION) No, I said if I was faced with something which I didn't understand in our area then, within the scope of my possibilities, I brought the matter into order again.
But I can't remember details about this any more, and your question is rather a basic one?
Q Well, I believe that you made the remark that you were disgusted and shocked at the ingratitude of the Croats towards the Germans.
A No, I didn't say that. The Croats were, on the contrary, very grateful to us, and we were in very extensive agreement with them.
Q You're talking now, of course, about the Croatian Government?
A No, about the Croatian people.
Q Your impression is that the population generally was very friendly to the Germans?
A Yes.
Q I believe I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further questioning on behalf of any of the defense counsel?
DR. TIPP: Your Honor, I have no further questions in re-direct examination.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused. (WITNESS LEAVES THE STAND) DR. TIPP: Your Honor, the examination of the Witness Kobe concludes the case of the Defendant Leyser?THE PRESIDENT:
What is the course of the defense procedure now? Who is to be presented as a witness at this time?
DR. SAUTER: Dr. Sauter for the Defendant Lanz.
Your Honor, we intend to carry on the defense for the Defendant Lanz by first of all calling the defendant himself to the witness-stand. During the course of his examination we will then submit a number of affidavits, and, after the examination of Lanz, a few remaining affidavits will be offered to the Tribunal in evidence. The affidavits and the other evidence material for the Defendant Lanz are contained in Lanz Document Books I to IV.
Then we have another document book, Lanz Document Book V, and this contains excerpts from the Washington War Diaries and a few affidavits which concern these War Diaries. Document Book VI contains only a few pages? and it merely contains the forms or the information of a few previous affidavits which, first of all, were not duly certificated. An affidavit has only just arrived during the last few days, and this will be submitted in its own document book, Lanz Document Book VII.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter? may I make a general inquiry, which would be applicable to you and your client, as well as the other defense counsel? What disposition and what progress has been made in the research of some 100 documents that were later turned over to the defense counsel? Have you been able to incorporate them in your document books, and have the other counsel, as far as you know, been able to make use of them and incorporate them in their document books or supplemental document books?
DR. SAUTER: These supplementary documents, which came only afterwards, we have been able to go through them and I, for instance, have actually used some of them as far as they concern the Defendant Lanz, I assume, as a matter of course, that the other defense counsel have also done the same. In any case the defense counsel have, in the meantime, looked at these documents, which came only afterwards, and they have evaluated them. This matter is in order.
THE PRESIDENT: May I make this statement then, that to the extent that they may be used, the Tribunal will be interested and will appreciate their being given prompt study so that there will be no delay in the submission of any material that is desired to be used from these 100 pages or documents, and if you will convey that information to any of the counsel that are absent, it will be appreciated.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, I will do that, of course.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, then, with your case in chief.
DR. SAUTER: With the permission of the Tribunal, I, shall now call the Defendant Lanz to the witness-stand. General Lanz, will you please take the witness stand?
KARL HUBER LANZ, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will raise his right hand and be sworn. Repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing. (THE WITNESS REPEATED THE OATH) You may be seated.
You may proceed, Dr. Sauter.
DIRECT EXAMINATION.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, please state your full name.
A. My full name is Karl Hubert Lanz.
Q. How old are you now?
A. Fifty-one.
Q. Were you a professional soldier?
A. Yes.
Q. What rank and what position did you have at the end of the First World War?
A. At the end of the First World War I was first Lieutenant and regimental adjutant of a mountain regiment.
Q. Were you sounded during the First World War?
A. Yes, I was wounded once very seriously.
Q. What did you do after the First World War?
A. After the First World War I was transferred into the newly established Reichswehr.
Q. And what was your activity between the First and Second World Wars?
A. During the period I was used with the troops as a company officer, and in addition in General Staff Service in the Reichswehr Ministry, and in the staff of the Army Corps Area Headquarters IX in Kassel.
Q. Your Honor, details about the life history of General Lanz can be seen in Document NOKW-875, Exhibit No. 443, in Prosecution Document Book XIX, German Page 3, English Page 4. And the details of Defendant Lanz's military career can be seen from Document NOKW-1780, also in Prosecution Document Book XIX, Exhibit No. 444, Page 6. With regard to the details I point out these two documents which have already been introduced in this trial.
Witness, now we can go over immediately to your position in the Second World War.
Which positions did you hold during the Second World War?
A. Immediately before the Second World War I was commander of a Mountain Regiment, and through my great regret, at the beginning of the war, I had to give up this regiment because I was called back into the General Staff. Then I became Chief of the General Staff of the Army Corps Area V in Stuttgart. In February, 1940 I finally succeeded in getting to the front and this was a Chief of the General Staff of the XVIIIth Mountain Corps, which, at that time, was stationed on the Rhine near Koblenz. With this corps I went through the French campaign and during this, for the assult on the Malmaison Ferme, Chemin des Dames, which I personally directed, I received the Knight's Cross to the Iron Cross. In Autumn 1940 I was then appointed, by surprise, Commander of the 1st Mountain Division, but without papers. And at the same time I was also promoted to Brigadier General. With this division I took part in an operation against Yugoslavia which lasted only 14 days. And then when we were withdrawn in the region of the Woerther Sea, and we were transferred to the Eastern Front, and then I was engaged in combat for two years against Russia on the Eastern Front. For the fighting in the Caucasus, and principally for the Elbrus Front, I received the Oak Leaves to the Iron Cross. In January, 1943, after I had been in charge of the division for over two years, I had to give it up and was assigned to the so-called Fuehrer Reserve.
A. First of all, from my point of view I would like to state what one does not mean by this that is a reserve of the Fuehrer Adolf Hitler. It doesn't mean that at all. By this one means a reserve of military officers of every rank, who are at the disposal of the OKH and who can be used by the OKH when necessary.
Q. Witness, you told us just now that for the fighting in Russia you received a high order for bravery. Why, then, soon after that, in January 1943, were you transferred to the Fuehrer Reserve?
A. Well, these two things had nothing to do with each other. I was transferred to the Fuehrer Reserve because it was usual in the German Army for an officer, when he had led his troops for a certain time and was ready for a generally higher deployment, that he had to give up his troops and he went into the Fuehrer Reserve, and there he waited for further assignments.
Q. And what was your military assignment during the period which followed?
A. At the end of January 1943, to my great astonishment, General Schmundt at that time -- he was the chief adjutant of the Wehrmacht with Hitler -- called me up on the telephone in my house and told me that I was to report at once personally to the Fuehrer since Hitler intended to give me an army section.
Q. And how big is an army section to the division which you had led formerly?
A. It is very much bigger.
Q. And in general, how big is such an army battalion?
A. For the -
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Do we have the translation of that correct -that a battalion is larger than a division?
DR. SAUTER: That is exactly what I wanted to clear up for the American listeners by my question.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. General Lanz, last of all, I ask you how big, in general in the German Army, was an army section? In this way, I wanted to clear up the question whether this transfer of yours to an army section was a promotion or the contrary or what it was? Would you please answer this question?
A. An army section isn't a fixed expression such as a division or a corps. An army section is set up according to operational necessities and as a result, in their organization they are not permanent at all. There is nothing permanent about them. An army section if one wishes to put it into a fixed place in the military hierarchy belongs between the army corps and the army. That is, it consists of a number of army corps. In my case, this army section consisted of two army corps.
Q. That is, in other words, witness, how many divisions were you in charge of at that time?
A. At that time, first of all, there were four and later on five divisions but two of these divisions were only remnants of divisions.
Q. Witness, how long then were you actually in command of this army section?
A. I was only in charge of this army section for three weeks.
Q. And then what happened after these three weeks?
A. Because during these three weeks, differences of opinion were expressed between the OKH and Hitler on one side and me on the other side, and after these differences of opinion, I was suddenly relieved of my command, and because of disappointed hopes I was sent home again.
Q. Therefore, at that time, because of differences of opinion with Hitler, you were relieved of your position?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us briefly what these differences of opinion were, or why Hitler was dissatisfied with you?
A. Hitler told me personally within the scope of this commission -he ordered me in the area east of Charkov to carry out an attack against the flanks of those strong Russian forces which at that time approximately from the area of Voronesh were advancing against Charkov, but in itself this was an absolutely sensible and plausible operation; but when I got to the spot, events which took place very quickly at that time had so developed that the carrying out of this attack according to my impression had become an impossibility.
Q. And why did you think that this was impossible, that it was impossible to carry out the attack as Hitler had personally ordered you?
A. In my opinion, it had become impossible because the tactical conditions had completely changed and the carrying out of an attack under the conditions then would not have been a complete failure but would have led to useless sacrifices and losses on the parts of my troops and of course I didn't want that. That is why I didn't do it.
Q. Well, then, you did not carry out the attack which was ordered. What did you do instead?
A. At that time -- it was in February and there was snow as there is today and perhaps a little more -- I went out there and I found out about the things on the spot, and I convinced myself that this attack would have been madness and at that time on my own responsibility I ordered that the attack was not to be carried out and the troops were taken away to the next sector so that no troops would be lost, and then I reported this to my superior officer.
Q. Witness, why did you not get the approval of your superior officers previously -- that is the approval especially of the OKH, in order not to expose yourself to charges by Hitler? Why did you on your own responsibility -- why did you work on your own in this case?
A. First of all, the situation was extremely urgent because this battle was going on all the time, and secondly, this was the main reason -- I had to say to myself that with the approval at that time of the highest authorities an objection by me in this respect would have been completely useless. One had to act upon this strong point, that there was an order and it had to be carried out. That is why I didn't do this.
Q. And at that time, witness, when you acted on your own responsibility, did you think what serious results could be incurred by you for this acting on your own responsibility?
A. Well, I thought less about myself than about my troops. I wanted to protect my troops. I didn't want to sacrifice them uselessly and that was the most decisive thing for me.
Q. And then because of this opposition against a Hitler order, were you relieved of your Post?
A. And then because of this opposition against a Hitler order, were you relieved of your post?
Q. Yes, in the next two or three days, a rather similar situation arose near Charkov and then I was sent home.
Q. And when was that, in order to repeat it and to clarify it?
A. It was about the 20th of February, 1943.
Q. 1943. And then how long did you remain inactive at home?
A. I don't know. I think I was at home for about four months without doing anything at all, and then I decided, because I didn't think it was my job during the war to sit at home doing nothing, to go to Berlin to the personnel chief and to ask him what was going on, and what was going to happen to me.
Q. And who was the personnel chief at that time?
A. At that time, it was General Schmundt whom I have already mentioned.
Q. Well, that is the same Schmundt who was the the same time chief adjutant of the Wehrmacht with Hitler?
A. Yes, that is the man.
Q. And then what information did General Schmundt give you with regard to your assignment?
A. Then I talked with Schmundt. He was about as old as I was and I knew him from former times before he came to the Fuehrer's headquarters, and I complained to him that I had been sitting at home for months and Schmundt said to me I should keep calm and should be quite satisfied that things weren't going much worse with me because at that time Hitler was very angry about my acting on my own at that time and only the fact that Hitler had recognized my personal bravery on the field of battle had protected me from having been placed by him before a courts martial which probably would have had rather unpleasant results for me.
Q. Witness, you are very careful with your expressions there. Wouldn't you like to tell the Tribunal what in your opinion these unpleasant results would have been?
A. Counsel, if I answer this question then, it would all only be hypothesis and there has been a lot of talk about hypothesis here. I don't know. I don't know what would have happened. I know what happened to other comrades but what would have happened to me of course under oath here I can't answer that.
Q. Well, then, what happened to the other generals who opposed an express order of Hitler's?
A. Well it varied according to the mood Hitler was in. He could do what he wanted. He was the supreme power. I know about General Sponeck who has already been mentioned here; because he did not carry out an order in the Crimea, it was during the fighting for Feodosia and he did not carry out this order and then he was sentenced--I don't know the details. The fact is that in the end he was shot.
I know the sentence on my friend General Hein who in similar circumstances connected with the fighting around Stalingrad was treated in a perfectly horrible way and for months he sat with the Gestapo in Berlin in prison there and one could say, after years of efforts on the part of other people, he finally got back to the army.
I can also quote the example of General Hoeppner. Those are cases which I can only mention here but I don't want to make a claim that those are the only ones; there are probably many more.
Q. Witness, when and in which position were you used again later on during the Second World War?
A. At the end of June, 1943. I became the acting commander of a corps while the commanding general was on leave. That was in the Kuban bridgehead.
Q. Well, this was no longer an army section, like the one you had commanded before but now it was only an army corps which probably consisted of two divisions. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And then how long were you in charge of this army corps?
A. Exactly four weeks.
Q. And then after the four weeks?
A. And then I was ordered to join the staff in the Balkans of a new one, namely the XXII Mountain Corps; and for this purpose at the beginning of August, 1943, I went to Salonika and there in the weeks which followed I set up this new corps staff.
Q. And with that, Ganeral Lanz, your activity in the Balkans started?
A. Yes.
Q. And that is regarding the charges here that was at the end of 1943, and what headquarters did you receive at that time?
A. First of all, in Salonika, near the army group, I had to discuss this matter with them.
Q. Which army group?
A. Army Group E. And then for three or four days, I went to the OKH headquarters -- it was probably about the middle of August--in order to clear up several personal questions about the position and then I was transferred to Athens because part of my officers and the staff and the other components of the staff were to be taken over by the military commander in Greece at that time.
Q. And then how long were you in Athens?
A. I was in Athens--I can tell you exactly. I was in Athens until the 9th of September, 1300 hours.
Q. 9th of September. And then during this first period, when you arrived in Greece, until the 9th of September, did you take part in any military operations?
A. No.
Q. No.
A. I was at the disposal of the army group and they hadn't any assignments to give out.
Q. Then in order to make this clear, witness, this was the period immediately before the Italian capitulation. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And what troops were in Athens at that time where you were at the beginning?
A. I can't give exhaustive information about this and also it wasn't my business to concern myself with this because the people in Athens didn't concern me. As far as I know, parts of the German Air Force Field Division No. 11 were stationed in and around Athens. In addition, in Athens, there were a number of German officers of the army and the air force and the navy but I don't know then in detail and in addition there were various staffs in Athens.
Q. Were there also Italian troops in Athens at that time? I am still talking about the period around the first of September, 1943, before you went to Epirus.
A. Well, in Athens, there were predominantly Italian troops. The Italian high command was in Athens, the high command of the 11th Italian Army under the command of the Italian General Vecchiarelli.
Q. Perhaps you could spell the name of the General because it occurs again here and has a certain significance and importance.
A. It is spelled V-e-c-c-h-i-a-r-e-l-l-i.
Q. This Italian General Vecchiarelli was the supreme commander, if I might put it like that, of the 11th Italian Army and were all the troops who were at that time in Greece subordinated to this General Vecchiarelli?
A. Yes, as far as I know, they were.