Which positions did you hold during the Second World War?
A. Immediately before the Second World War I was commander of a Mountain Regiment, and through my great regret, at the beginning of the war, I had to give up this regiment because I was called back into the General Staff. Then I became Chief of the General Staff of the Army Corps Area V in Stuttgart. In February, 1940 I finally succeeded in getting to the front and this was a Chief of the General Staff of the XVIIIth Mountain Corps, which, at that time, was stationed on the Rhine near Koblenz. With this corps I went through the French campaign and during this, for the assult on the Malmaison Ferme, Chemin des Dames, which I personally directed, I received the Knight's Cross to the Iron Cross. In Autumn 1940 I was then appointed, by surprise, Commander of the 1st Mountain Division, but without papers. And at the same time I was also promoted to Brigadier General. With this division I took part in an operation against Yugoslavia which lasted only 14 days. And then when we were withdrawn in the region of the Woerther Sea, and we were transferred to the Eastern Front, and then I was engaged in combat for two years against Russia on the Eastern Front. For the fighting in the Caucasus, and principally for the Elbrus Front, I received the Oak Leaves to the Iron Cross. In January, 1943, after I had been in charge of the division for over two years, I had to give it up and was assigned to the so-called Fuehrer Reserve.
A. First of all, from my point of view I would like to state what one does not mean by this that is a reserve of the Fuehrer Adolf Hitler. It doesn't mean that at all. By this one means a reserve of military officers of every rank, who are at the disposal of the OKH and who can be used by the OKH when necessary.
Q. Witness, you told us just now that for the fighting in Russia you received a high order for bravery. Why, then, soon after that, in January 1943, were you transferred to the Fuehrer Reserve?
A. Well, these two things had nothing to do with each other. I was transferred to the Fuehrer Reserve because it was usual in the German Army for an officer, when he had led his troops for a certain time and was ready for a generally higher deployment, that he had to give up his troops and he went into the Fuehrer Reserve, and there he waited for further assignments.
Q. And what was your military assignment during the period which followed?
A. At the end of January 1943, to my great astonishment, General Schmundt at that time -- he was the chief adjutant of the Wehrmacht with Hitler -- called me up on the telephone in my house and told me that I was to report at once personally to the Fuehrer since Hitler intended to give me an army section.
Q. And how big is an army section to the division which you had led formerly?
A. It is very much bigger.
Q. And in general, how big is such an army battalion?
A. For the -
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Do we have the translation of that correct -that a battalion is larger than a division?
DR. SAUTER: That is exactly what I wanted to clear up for the American listeners by my question.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. General Lanz, last of all, I ask you how big, in general in the German Army, was an army section? In this way, I wanted to clear up the question whether this transfer of yours to an army section was a promotion or the contrary or what it was? Would you please answer this question?
A. An army section isn't a fixed expression such as a division or a corps. An army section is set up according to operational necessities and as a result, in their organization they are not permanent at all. There is nothing permanent about them. An army section if one wishes to put it into a fixed place in the military hierarchy belongs between the army corps and the army. That is, it consists of a number of army corps. In my case, this army section consisted of two army corps.
Q. That is, in other words, witness, how many divisions were you in charge of at that time?
A. At that time, first of all, there were four and later on five divisions but two of these divisions were only remnants of divisions.
Q. Witness, how long then were you actually in command of this army section?
A. I was only in charge of this army section for three weeks.
Q. And then what happened after these three weeks?
A. Because during these three weeks, differences of opinion were expressed between the OKH and Hitler on one side and me on the other side, and after these differences of opinion, I was suddenly relieved of my command, and because of disappointed hopes I was sent home again.
Q. Therefore, at that time, because of differences of opinion with Hitler, you were relieved of your position?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us briefly what these differences of opinion were, or why Hitler was dissatisfied with you?
A. Hitler told me personally within the scope of this commission -he ordered me in the area east of Charkov to carry out an attack against the flanks of those strong Russian forces which at that time approximately from the area of Voronesh were advancing against Charkov, but in itself this was an absolutely sensible and plausible operation; but when I got to the spot, events which took place very quickly at that time had so developed that the carrying out of this attack according to my impression had become an impossibility.
Q. And why did you think that this was impossible, that it was impossible to carry out the attack as Hitler had personally ordered you?
A. In my opinion, it had become impossible because the tactical conditions had completely changed and the carrying out of an attack under the conditions then would not have been a complete failure but would have led to useless sacrifices and losses on the parts of my troops and of course I didn't want that. That is why I didn't do it.
Q. Well, then, you did not carry out the attack which was ordered. What did you do instead?
A. At that time -- it was in February and there was snow as there is today and perhaps a little more -- I went out there and I found out about the things on the spot, and I convinced myself that this attack would have been madness and at that time on my own responsibility I ordered that the attack was not to be carried out and the troops were taken away to the next sector so that no troops would be lost, and then I reported this to my superior officer.
Q. Witness, why did you not get the approval of your superior officers previously -- that is the approval especially of the OKH, in order not to expose yourself to charges by Hitler? Why did you on your own responsibility -- why did you work on your own in this case?
A. First of all, the situation was extremely urgent because this battle was going on all the time, and secondly, this was the main reason -- I had to say to myself that with the approval at that time of the highest authorities an objection by me in this respect would have been completely useless. One had to act upon this strong point, that there was an order and it had to be carried out. That is why I didn't do this.
Q. And at that time, witness, when you acted on your own responsibility, did you think what serious results could be incurred by you for this acting on your own responsibility?
A. Well, I thought less about myself than about my troops. I wanted to protect my troops. I didn't want to sacrifice them uselessly and that was the most decisive thing for me.
Q. And then because of this opposition against a Hitler order, were you relieved of your Post?
A. And then because of this opposition against a Hitler order, were you relieved of your post?
Q. Yes, in the next two or three days, a rather similar situation arose near Charkov and then I was sent home.
Q. And when was that, in order to repeat it and to clarify it?
A. It was about the 20th of February, 1943.
Q. 1943. And then how long did you remain inactive at home?
A. I don't know. I think I was at home for about four months without doing anything at all, and then I decided, because I didn't think it was my job during the war to sit at home doing nothing, to go to Berlin to the personnel chief and to ask him what was going on, and what was going to happen to me.
Q. And who was the personnel chief at that time?
A. At that time, it was General Schmundt whom I have already mentioned.
Q. Well, that is the same Schmundt who was the the same time chief adjutant of the Wehrmacht with Hitler?
A. Yes, that is the man.
Q. And then what information did General Schmundt give you with regard to your assignment?
A. Then I talked with Schmundt. He was about as old as I was and I knew him from former times before he came to the Fuehrer's headquarters, and I complained to him that I had been sitting at home for months and Schmundt said to me I should keep calm and should be quite satisfied that things weren't going much worse with me because at that time Hitler was very angry about my acting on my own at that time and only the fact that Hitler had recognized my personal bravery on the field of battle had protected me from having been placed by him before a courts martial which probably would have had rather unpleasant results for me.
Q. Witness, you are very careful with your expressions there. Wouldn't you like to tell the Tribunal what in your opinion these unpleasant results would have been?
A. Counsel, if I answer this question then, it would all only be hypothesis and there has been a lot of talk about hypothesis here. I don't know. I don't know what would have happened. I know what happened to other comrades but what would have happened to me of course under oath here I can't answer that.
Q. Well, then, what happened to the other generals who opposed an express order of Hitler's?
A. Well it varied according to the mood Hitler was in. He could do what he wanted. He was the supreme power. I know about General Sponeck who has already been mentioned here; because he did not carry out an order in the Crimea, it was during the fighting for Feodosia and he did not carry out this order and then he was sentenced--I don't know the details. The fact is that in the end he was shot.
I know the sentence on my friend General Hein who in similar circumstances connected with the fighting around Stalingrad was treated in a perfectly horrible way and for months he sat with the Gestapo in Berlin in prison there and one could say, after years of efforts on the part of other people, he finally got back to the army.
I can also quote the example of General Hoeppner. Those are cases which I can only mention here but I don't want to make a claim that those are the only ones; there are probably many more.
Q. Witness, when and in which position were you used again later on during the Second World War?
A. At the end of June, 1943. I became the acting commander of a corps while the commanding general was on leave. That was in the Kuban bridgehead.
Q. Well, this was no longer an army section, like the one you had commanded before but now it was only an army corps which probably consisted of two divisions. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And then how long were you in charge of this army corps?
A. Exactly four weeks.
Q. And then after the four weeks?
A. And then I was ordered to join the staff in the Balkans of a new one, namely the XXII Mountain Corps; and for this purpose at the beginning of August, 1943, I went to Salonika and there in the weeks which followed I set up this new corps staff.
Q. And with that, Ganeral Lanz, your activity in the Balkans started?
A. Yes.
Q. And that is regarding the charges here that was at the end of 1943, and what headquarters did you receive at that time?
A. First of all, in Salonika, near the army group, I had to discuss this matter with them.
Q. Which army group?
A. Army Group E. And then for three or four days, I went to the OKH headquarters -- it was probably about the middle of August--in order to clear up several personal questions about the position and then I was transferred to Athens because part of my officers and the staff and the other components of the staff were to be taken over by the military commander in Greece at that time.
Q. And then how long were you in Athens?
A. I was in Athens--I can tell you exactly. I was in Athens until the 9th of September, 1300 hours.
Q. 9th of September. And then during this first period, when you arrived in Greece, until the 9th of September, did you take part in any military operations?
A. No.
Q. No.
A. I was at the disposal of the army group and they hadn't any assignments to give out.
Q. Then in order to make this clear, witness, this was the period immediately before the Italian capitulation. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And what troops were in Athens at that time where you were at the beginning?
A. I can't give exhaustive information about this and also it wasn't my business to concern myself with this because the people in Athens didn't concern me. As far as I know, parts of the German Air Force Field Division No. 11 were stationed in and around Athens. In addition, in Athens, there were a number of German officers of the army and the air force and the navy but I don't know then in detail and in addition there were various staffs in Athens.
Q. Were there also Italian troops in Athens at that time? I am still talking about the period around the first of September, 1943, before you went to Epirus.
A. Well, in Athens, there were predominantly Italian troops. The Italian high command was in Athens, the high command of the 11th Italian Army under the command of the Italian General Vecchiarelli.
Q. Perhaps you could spell the name of the General because it occurs again here and has a certain significance and importance.
A. It is spelled V-e-c-c-h-i-a-r-e-l-l-i.
Q. This Italian General Vecchiarelli was the supreme commander, if I might put it like that, of the 11th Italian Army and were all the troops who were at that time in Greece subordinated to this General Vecchiarelli?
A. Yes, as far as I know, they were.
Q. And then, on the 9 September, as you have already said, you left Athens and then what was your further assignment?
A. I was assigned two divisions which were there on the spot. I was assigned to them with my corps. To secure the coast in the area of Epirus against the partisan units there. This task went on until the evacuation of Greece.
Q. Witness, you said just now that you took over in Epirus, the capital of which is Joannina. Here you took over two divisions. Perhaps you could tell us the numbers of these divisions because they will crop up again quite frequently.
A. The divisions concerned were, in the northern part of my corps sphere, the 1st Mountain Division and in the southern part of my corps sphere, the 104th Rifle Division. Could you please give me the maps?
DR. SAUTER: Your Honor, I now submit to the Tribunal and to the Prosecution a little map. During the course of the examination of the defendant Lanz a number of localities will be mentioned and, so that the Tribunal can get a better impression where these localities are, the names are set down on the map.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, you have got the map. What did you want to say about the map at this moment?
A. I might point out to the Tribunal, and for their information to state, that the 1st Mountain Division was stationed in general in the area around Joannina, which lies north of the Gulf of Arta. The Gulf of Arta is near the town of Prevesa and on this Gulf of Arta the town of Axium lies, which is well known in history. The 104th Rifle Division was stationed in the Southern part of my sphere, mainly in the area around Agrinion. That is, it was stationed in Agrinion.
DR. SAUTER: Your Honors, Agrinion is rather in the southern part of the map around the road which runs from Joannina in the north via Arta to the south towards Messolonoion, and rather north of this is Agrinion in whose district this 2nd Division, which the defendant has mentioned, was stationed.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Is that correct, witness?
A. Yes; that is correct.
Q. And in addition to these two divisions were other German formations also subordinate to your command?
A. Subordinate to me during the course of the months were various battalions, so-called fortification batallions or security battalions; but I can't recount them all in detail now.
Q. And those troops were, as you said, already in Epirus when you arrived on the 9 September, 1943?
A. Yes; that is correct.
Q. And to whom, until that date, were the troops subordinated?
A. These troops were subordinated until then, to Army Group E but I don't know for certain whether they were directly subordinated or whether another staff, for instance, the commander of Salonika-Agean came in between.
Q. And when you arrived at that time at Joannina in Epirus who was the commander of Army Group E?
A. The staff of the Italian, I think 26th Army Corps was in Joannina but it could be the 24th. I am not quite certain, but it doesn't matter at any rate. In any case, an Italian Corps staff was stationed in Joannina. In addition there was an Italian Corps staff in Agrinion.
Q. In Agrinion.
A. That is, in my corps sphere at that time there were two Italian Corps staffs.
Q. Witness, I asked you previously, and I don't think you understood the question, who at that time, when you took over in Joannina, was commander of the German Army Group E, the name of this general.
A. The commander in chief of the German Army Group E was General Loehr. He was my immediate superior.
Q. Well then, how long did the German troops which you told us about before remain in Epirus under your command?
A. That varied. The 1st Mountain Division, as far as I know, on approximately 10 July 1943, went from Serbia to Epirus. That is about two months before I arrived there and it remained there until the beginning of November and at the beginning of November, as we say in military language, elements of it in turn were transferred again to Croatia. The 104th Rifle Division, which was also there when I arrived, remained the whole time in my sphere.
Q. You told us previously the main tasks you had to perform in Epirus. Now I would like you to state what authority, what powers, you had at that time and especially had you territorial authority or similar things? What can you tell us about that?
A. At that time I was an officer in charge of troops. This means I had authority of command over the troops subordinate to me.
Q. And during your activity in Epirus did you have any kind of territorial authority?
A. No.
Q. The so-called executive power - do you remember the expression which has been mentioned here very frequently?
A. No; I had no executive power.
Q. Well, who had the executive power in Epirus?
A. I can't tell you for certain.
Q. But at any rate you didn't have it?
A. No; I didn't have it.
Q. Then how long did you remain in Epirus, Witness?
A. I arrived on the 9th of September 1943, about 1500 hours and I left on the 13th of October, 1730 hours.
Q. Which year?
A. 1944.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. I received the commission in the area of Skoplje to repel the Bulgarian attacks against the rear roads. On these retreat roads from Salonika to Skoplje. At that time all the troops coming back from Greece were moving.
Q. And how long did you remain there?
A. About 4 weeks, until the middle of November.
Q. The middle of November 1944?
A. Yes.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. Then I was transferred to Hungary and took over a Corps sector south of the Platten See (Lake Balaton) against the Russian attacks which were taking place at that time.
Q. And where were you at the end of the war?
A. At the end of the war I was in charge of the security of the Alpine Passes from the Laeubern Pass near Klagenfurt to the Tauern Pass near Rastatt, near Salzburg.
Q. And when were you made a prisoner of war?
A. On the 9th of May 1945. I was captured with my troops by the Americans and made a prisoner of war after I had thought about it for some time whether I should surrender to the Americans or the Russians, and I decided to surrender to the Americans.
Q. And since then have you been the whole time in camps? That is, for about two and a half years?
A. Yes. I was in the PW Camp Kohlgrub in Upper Bavaria, and then I was in the Igling Camp near Landsberg, and then in Ulm, and then in Dachau, and then at Garmisch, and on the 17th of January this year I was transferred here to the jail.
Q. And, according to your views, did your treatment in the various camps correspond with international law -the provisions of international law which concerns you as a captive General?
A. No, one can not say that.
Q. How then?
A. For instance, in Ulm we were forbidden to wear our uniforms and insignia and it was forbidden under peril of punishment and our treatment as Generals did not correspond to what one ought to expect. In addition, the accommodation and the food and the welfare was not such as is laid down in the Geneva Convention.
Q. And was the treatment itself which you and your comrades, the other Generals, received such that, in your opinion, it was against the provisions of international law? I mean the actual treatment.
A. Well, in any case I was not beaten at all, but there were also cases of this.
Q. What do you mean? There were cases in which German Generals were beaten?
A. Yes.
Q. By whom?
A. By the Americans.
Q. By the guards?
A. I remember an experience, one incident, personally in Garmisch in 1946, and the commandant of the camp intervened -- I mean, the American camp commandant. But the general treatment was consciously undignified. One can't say otherwise. For instance, we used to clean the toilets and things like this, and raids were made of our rooms by the American troops, and when we got back to our rooms it looked as if vandalism had been going on.
Everything was turned upside down.
Q. And that time you were under arrest for about two and a half years continuously -- do you think that the arrest and through these experiences you capacity of defending yourself for this trial has been restricted in any way? Above all, your memory, your capacity for remembering things?
A. Well, I should try to defend myself, but it's clear that captivity for thirty months behind barbed wire doesn't help to aid one's nerves and one's health. It is a time of torture, not only for me but for my family, there is no doubt about this.
Q. And are you still a prisoner of war?
A. In my own eyes, yes, but officially, no.
Q. What does that mean, "officially, no"? Please, would you give the Tribunal more details about what you mean by this?
A. The beginning of April this year in the prison we were told that we were released from captivity as a prisoner of war and were now internees. We received this with silent protest, but we were powerless. What could we do?
A. General Lanz, you were told that you were released as a prisoner of war. Were you then actually released? I mean, in personal conditions was anything changed through this release? I mean, could you perhaps go home? Could you move about freely? Or, what actually changed by this release? Please tell us.
A. Well, there can't be any talk at all about release. It was just a form of speech, a formality. I wasn't released for one single minute, but, I express myself in this way, we were sort of written over.
We were written over from a prisoner of war to an internee. And it was done -- and there was also widely distributed amongst the Press so that the rights and the protection of the Geneva Convention should be taken away from us. That was the reason.
Q. Witness, and did you protest against this in any way? I mean, the protection of the Geneva Convention is hold by every prisoner of war, whether he is a General or an ordinary man -- you, too. Did you protest against this in any way or did you in any way express the fact that you were in agreement with your release as a prisoner of war?
A. No, I wasn't in agreement with it in any way at all. We weren't released. I protested against it, but, of course, this did not help any. I was given a release certificate: it was already signed by an American officer -- I think it was done in Dachau, but I don't remember exactly -- and I had to sign this certificate. I couldn't do anything else. I just had to sign it under protest and complaints. But even if I hadn't signed it, I am completely convinced that nothing in my situation would have changed at all.
Q. And now, General -- are you now being treated as a prisoner of war? Or, I mean ---
A. I am not treated as a prisoner of war, but I am treated as a kind of convict. There can be no mention at all of a prisoner of war.
Q. Well, Witness, we will not go over to another subject. Were you a member of the National Socialist Party?
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. General, when you say you were forced to sign something, would you care to elaborate on that?
THE WITNESS: Well, "forced" isn't perhaps the right expression. This paper was placed in front of me and I was told I had to sign it and when I objected to this, then they just smiled at me and said, "Well, that is the only thing you can do. Sign it." All my comrades had to sign it, too, or had already signed it. Well, then, of course, I just signed it, too, and hoped for the best. There was nothing left to do. What could I do?
THE PRESIDENT: Was there any statement written on this paper that you signed that it was signed under protest?
THE WITNESS: By me?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No, I did not express my protest in writing. I just wrote my name on this piece of paper.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any reporter, or, transcript of the proceedings at that time? Was any reporter present?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know who the officer -- who the American officer was or who was present at that time?
THE WITNESS: It wasn't an officer. There were various people from the prison office who were just sort of standing around and walking around and there was no official notice taken of it at all.
THE PRESIDENT: What Germans were present? That you know?
THE WITNESS: We were taken to this place separately from our cells.
THE PRESIDENT: There were no Germans present?
THE WITNESS: Well, I can't remember that any of my comrades were there. I think there was a representative of a German bank there, but I don't know his name.
THE PRESIDENT: What was he doing there?
THE WITNESS: He had something to do with the fees which had to be paid to us after our releases.
THE PRESIDENT: You may continue, Dr. Sauter.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, following on the last question, one more question ---
THE PRESIDENT: I forgot about our recess. Perhaps we ought to take a recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, I asked you before the recess whether you were a member of the National Socialist Party?
A No.
Q Were you a member of the formations of the Party, that is, for instance the SS or the SA?
A No.
Q Were you present at any of the official training courses of the Party or anything like that?
A No.
Q Did you receive from Hitler or the Party any special gifts, presents, contributions of any types?
A No.
Q You did not. Witness, can you explain why, in view of the qualifications General Loehr gave you which have been described as an NS character and NS character means National Socialist leader type. This description, if the Tribunal please, is contained in document NOKW 1780 which is Exhibit 444 contained in Prosecution Document Book 19 on page 7 of the German and 11 of the English copy. Witness, can you answer that question?
A No, I have no explanation at all. As I remember it and as I see it I gave no reason to General Loehr to arrive at a description of that sort. The only explanation I can think of is that General Loehr had to write some sort of a description of my character and that he believed the circumstances of the day that he would do me a favor by making a remark of that sort in this judgment of my personality. He did that perhaps because it was necessary to write down a remark of that sort in order to establish me more firmly in the position that I held at the time. As far as any definite reason was concerned connected with my activities or attitude, a remark I might have made, or anything of that sort, nothing of that sort applied.