Did it seem expedient and did it have any effect on the population?
A. Undoubtedly it did. That is what I emphasized just now and even before I said that these attacks later on decreased considerably.
Q. When we discussed reprisal measures here in these proceedings, the taking of hostages and the execution of hostages played an important part. There are hardly any documents in this connection from the 15th Corps and none at all, to the best of my discovery, from the area of your division. Can you from your memory tell us whether the troops of the 392nd Division took any hostages or whether any shootings or hangings of hostages were ever carried out by any troops of your division?
A. I do not recall one single incident of an arrest or of a shooting of even one single hostage. My divisional commanders and 1 were both principally of the opinion that the real fight against the bands took the foreground and we acted in accordance with this opinion.
Q. Did the troops of the 392nd Division make prisoners?
A. Yes, constantly we made very many. Up to the summer of 1944 we had altogether 200,000 prisoners and deserters.
Q. How were the prisoners treated with your division, Herr Kobe?
A. The prisoners were kept in a small prisoner camp and an accommodation which was in the immediate vicinity of our divisional headquarters and when we had a certain number of prisoners together then they were transported to Karlovac or Zagreb in empty trains which went back. There they were delivered in the prisoner camps against a receipt and this was reported along the so-called "quartermaster Channel".
Q. Herr Kobe, do you know which agencies were in charge of the prisoner of war camps where you delivered your prisoners?
A. I did not concern myself with this and all I can say is that, to the best of my knowledge, one of the camps was subordinated to the sub-area administrative headquarters in Karlovac and how the matters stood around Zagreb I do not know.
Q. You said that your division had a number of deserters. What happened to them?
A. The deserters were brought into a special small deserters' camp which we also had in the division area. They were well treated there and they were separated from the prisoners and brought separately to the roar. Every one of them received a note saying that he was a deserter. Of course, there were quite a number of them, who voluntarily reported for the Ustasha units or for the units of Major Erremie. These people were then assigned to the corresponding units.
Q. Witness, up until now we have discussed the bandit fighting a lot, the mopping-up operations and reprisal measures. Before we continue and come to another chapter I would like to put to you one more question to this last set of questions. You said that reprisal measures did not play too large a part in the area of your division. Perhaps, you could clarify for us what it is you actually want to say. Did you mean that the population in your area, as you indicated, acted so reasonably that it was not necessary to take reprisal measures?
A. Yes. That was one reason and then we had such a lot to do that we really could not delay to deal with reprisal measures.
Q. Now, witness, let us turn to something which you indicated just now when you said you had so very much to do. Was the combating of the bands the main activity of your division or what was the main assignment of your division in that area?
A. Our special assignment was to defend the coast in the area mentioned, and to build fortifications. Furthermore, in order to fulfill this assignment we had to keep the rear area free. We did that and we fought in such away that we actually had a large area at our disposal where not one single enemy unit was left. These two tasks went parallel with the third task which was to help the poor Croatians to build up their own state, One task merely supplemented the other one and we cannot imagine one of these tasks without the others.
Q. You said just now that you had complete control over your area. One question in this connection: in these proceedings the evacuation of the male inhabitants from certain band suspect areas has played a considerable part in the examinations; were such evacuations carried out in the area of your division?
A. N o, these evacuations played no part in our area because the population had actually made their positions clear. One part of them took the side of the bands and fought with them and the other part was on our side and fought with the Croatians or with the Serbs, as the case might have been.
Q. One further chapter from the area of your division: your division was one of the so-called coastal divisions, Kerr Kobe, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Since your division was a coastal division, the name already indicates that you had to deal with the securing of the coast against a possible enemy landing and with the building of coastal fortifications. In this connection, we have a further part of the indictment which plays a considerable part. This is the ordered and, according to the indictment, the carried out evacuation of the population fit for military service for the islands and the deportation into the Reich for forced labor. If I for the moment omit the deportation to the Reich for forced labor, do you still remember any basic orders on the evacuation of the male population?
A. actually, I do not remember any such reports but it so happened that I saw such an order here and when I saw it I vaguely remembered it.
Q. Would you please take Document Book XVI to hand, Herr Kobe, and turn up page 104 of the German text which is page 55 of the English text. Here you find Document N0KW-674 of the prosecution which was submitted as Prosecution Exhibit 361, an order from the 13th of February 1944 which deals with the evacuation of the islands and of the coast in the event of an enemy landing. Before you give us your comments on this order I would like to ask you to also look at page 109 of the German Document Book which is page 61 of the English Document Book. Here you have an order dated the 21st of February 1944 and perhaps you could tell us whether you can remember those two orders.
A. I remember the first one but not the second one and I don't even believe we ever received the second one.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER:
While he is examining these orders we will take our usual afternoon recess.
THE MARSHAL: The court will be in recess until trreefifteen.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q Herr Kobe, before the recess we were discussing the two orders about the evaluation of the island of the coast, which I submitted to you, and you said that you only knew the first order -- that is, the order of the 13th of February 1944. Now, what can you tell us about how this order was carried out within the sphere of your division?
A First of all, the evacuation of the coast would not have been carried out at all, would have been impossible, because there weren't enough forces there. We had our forces, three battalions and one regimental staff, along 120 to 130 kilometers of coast. On the islands we were also only interested in the men capable of bearing arms. The islands Rab and Pac were the main ones which were in front of our coast. On both we had strong points -- bases.
Q With regard to the evacuation of the Island of Rab, the prosecution submitted no document originally; only in the cross examination of General von Leyser did the prosecutor present a document, which was mainly concerned with the evacuation of the island of Rab. It is Prosecution Document NOKW-1426 and it was offered under the Exhibit Number 613. I would like to show you the photostat of this document, Witness.
A Doctor Tipp, perhaps before we come to this matter, I mention a matter with regard to the evacuation of the coast. It is perhaps of our attitude.
Q Yes, please do.
A During our consolidation of the coast and the main strong points large shelters were driven into the fields, and when we had found out that an immediate landing was not imminent we suggested to the Corps that the buildings which we had built for accommodation of our troops should be placed at the disposal of the population for air raid shelters, and this was immediately granted by the Corps, with the result that when the air raid attacks started soon after, these air raid shelters, as they had become, were used by the population. That is, we did not evacuate the population there but, on the contrary, we helped them to shelter from the enemy air attacks.
That was all I wanted to say with regard to this question.
Q And now, Witness, we can go over to the evacuation of the Island of Rab. This is Exhibit 613 and is before you. First of all, I would like to say that the dates of the document are not in order. The first document we wish to discuss is on one pg. of the Prosecution's and probably on one of the original. It is a teletype from the 2nd Panzer Army to the 15th Mountain Corps. It is dated 14 March 1944. Under figure 1, it states there, "After the Port of Tablanac has been occupied by the 392nd Infantry, it was necessary for the Division to free and clear the island of Rab as soon as possible from the bands and to evacuate the able bodied men from the island." Would you please say something about this, Witness?
A It is a clear order which we distributed according to orders and which we carried out as far as we could.
Q The next letter, in the document is a teletype of the 15th Mountain Corps, dated the 15th of March 1944, and here it mentions that as soon as the necessary preconditions are available the clearing out and evacuation of the able bodied men, is to be done according to figure 1 concerning the Island of Rab. Can you remember --- Oh, you haven't got it yet. It is page 16 on the original. I don't know if the pages are numbered through. Did you find it, Herr Kobe? Can you remember which order your Division received by reason of the correspondence and what took place between your two superior officers on the basis of this document?
A No, I don't know it in detail any more, but I assume that it had a similar text.
Q And now I would like to ask you, Herr Kobe, how the evacuation of Rab, the occupation of Rab, was actually carried out.
A The execution, as I had already said, was carried out according to the sense of our conditions. That is, we got into contact with the Landrat of Senj and the who the island belonged and then we discussed the operation with him. The land rat was very proud about the occasion and boasted and spoke about it beforehand, so that the enemy knew about our intentions beforehand and the hostile elements had an opportunity to withdraw.
And then we -- that is, not the troops, but our troops then went over one day to the Island of Rab, and the Croatian Landrat with his administrative people and his police, as well as the Ustasha, took part in this. He told the people who had assembled there that he knew exactly who was the enemy and who was the friend. And then he assembled a Ustasha unit with the people who were there, and these people were shortly taken to Shujac and they were included on that island.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q You said then, Herr Kobe, that the rounding up of the people on the island was under the command of the Croatian Landrat?
A Yes. It was in charge of this Croatian Landrat and we, in connection with the Ustasha and the police there, had, of course, the task of going around and finding out whether all the people really* had been rounded up. But with the word "rounded up" I would like to stress more the registration because this means in the German language, mainly, registration.
Q You just said, witness, that these people were taken by the Ustasha Battalion on the island and then were taken over to the Island of Shujac. In the documents which we still have to discuss the name Fieume-it crops up again and again. When you talk about the word FiumeShujac perhaps you could tell us the local conditions there and what this double name of Fiume-Shujac means.
A Fiume and Shujac are two towns which run into each other. In Shujac, there was as I already mentioned at the beginning, first of all the administrative apparatus of the Landrat of Senj and also there was the equipment and clothing of the Ustasha which was sent there by railway. With regard to Rab I would like to say one thing, that there also a rather young Croatian official was set up there with his own police so that we had the exclusive military task of establishing strong points about the Northern and Southern ends of Rab.
Q And now, witness, I would like to ask you to look at the daily report of the 392nd Division dated 20 March 1944. It is on Page 12 in the original. It states for your division, the 392nd Division: "the operation 'Illusion', after the navy had failed, was carried out. No contact with the enemy." Then comes the sentence: "100 able-bodied men transferred to Fiume." And a preliminary question with regard to this:
It isn't quite clear from the document. Was this code name "Illusion" chosen for the operation Rab? Can you see that from this?
A From this report which comes from the Corps, not from the Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Division, it is rather clear.
Q Now, here in this report it states that 100 able-bodied men have been transferred to Fiume, Have you anything to say about that, anything additional to what you have already said?
A No.
Q Then, witness, I would like you to turn to the last report. This report is dated the 24 March 1944. It is on Page 15 in the original Here again a hundred persons are mentioned who were taken to Fiume but here it says, "A hundred people arrested". Can you explain anything about this?
A Yes. First of all I would like to stress that the division is not responsible for a report which is made by the Corps. I personally assume that the Corps used this expression and took it over so that by this the carrying out of the original order should be set down in writing I didn't concern myself with the question at all at that time as to whether these people were to be described as arrestees or future Ustashamen or as able-bodied men. This played no part at all. I only know that these people at the time were transferred to Fiume-Ghujac; that those about to join the Ustasha received clothing on the Island of Rab and that everything was in the hands of the Croatian government authorities.
Q And now with regard to the last report, one more question, Herr Kobe. In this concluding report it says that 25 Jews were also taken over to Fiume. Can you remember that and can you tell us what this is all about?
A Yes. I only remember very vaguely about this matter. As far as I recall, they were Jews who, from the area of Zara, were on the way into the Italian territory and either in Rab or in Hvar were taken there by our ships. With regard to the arrest of these people, nothing can be seen from the concluding report. I can only mention one detail which perhaps illustrates something about the position of these Jews.
At that time the commander of these coastal platoons told me that one of our German soldiers in Senj, while they were there, had Court No. V, Case No. VII.
started a love affair with a Jewess and that they both went for walks outside the fortifications and that some other people had also gossiped about this. In this way I wanted to show that nothing really was done against the Jews by us.
Q Now, I think we can leave the document as far as it concerns the Island of Rab and I would like to ask you something different. You previously mentioned as another important island, the island of Pac. Can you tell us quite briefly, as far as you remember, what you know about the evacuation of this island?
A Yes. Pac was occupied by us in rather the same way rather later on. I don't remember anything at all about any kind of arrest there. Also there was a Croatian administrative authority under a young Catholic priest and later on the Croatian military district Corps got into contact with our liaison officer and rounded up people who came into the question and this matter at the time wasn't speeded up and was rather delayed and so the only people who came into the question were those who wanted to work with us.
With regard to this, I would like to say one fundamental thing with reference to any kind of forced recruiting. You will understand that we had no interest in getting such elements into our own units any restless elements. For days and nights long the Croatians went around the district and when we went through the night through these terrific forces in the mountains we had to be able to rely on each other, and in this way perhaps you can judge our relations towards our Croats.
Q Now, with regard to this document, Herr Kobe, just one more question. I would like to ask you to turn to Page 14 of the photostat. Here you find a daily report of the 15th Corps, dated the 21 March 1944. Under your division, that is, the 392nd Division, there is an intention reported: "Intention hare hunt;" code name, "Lager Leben" - Camp Life. And then in brackets, "Taking into custody of 200 forced recruits in the district southeast of Brinje."
The Prosecution put this passage to General von Leyser in cross Court No. V, Case No. VII.
examination, but since it is an incident which concerns your Division I would like to ask you whether you can explain anything about this incident from your own knowledge.
A Yes. I can't remember this matter at, all any more because, from this whole report you can see that exactly at that time, in our area, fighting was going on everywhere. First of all, from a purely legal point of view, it can be clearly seen from the report that it was intended that 200 people who had been forcibly recruited should be seized; if they had been people which we had wanted to recruit forcibly, then the report would have run, "Forcible recruiting of 200 people." But with regard to the actual conditions it was exactly this area around Brinje which belonged to the most loyal Croat District of our whole area. The whole population was on the side of the Ustasha and I know that scarcely one member of any family served with the partisans and just for this reason it is quite impossible that we had wanted to carry out a forced recruiting there. Whether we were ever to release the people on the next day I really don't know.
Q I now leave this document and go over to another point of the indictment charged against General von Leyser. Perhaps from your knowledge you can say something with regard to the charge. The charge against General von Leyser in one point is based on the fact that he sent civilians to forced labor in the Reich. I haven't been able to find any documents about this at all or any within the sphere of your division about this.
Witness, what do you know about whether, during the sphere of your division, forced recruitment of Croatian civilian population for deportation into the Reich was carried out?
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
A I don't remember any kind of forced deportation from Croatia at all and as far as I know we never sent away involuntary workers. At any rate it wasn't our job but I talked with people in our area who were on leave, that is, they were voluntary workers from Croatia who worked in Germany and who had a leave pass to go home and they reported to me very proudly about their leave and showed me their leave certificate and once when I was for a short time in our main wound station our medical orderly was also a young Croat who told me with great enthusiasm about his stay in Germany.
Q And now in conclusion a few questions about the band warfare. You described to us, Herr Kobe, that you experienced from close contact the operations of your division. I would like to ask you whether you yourself took part with weapons in your hands in such band warfare?
A Yes.
Q You are perhaps the first witness here in the trial, Herr Kobel, who experienced closely and fought in the band warfare and now you have seen the Tito Partisans close up and now I would like to ask you a few details about this. Did the Tito partisans wear standard uniforms?
A No, they were very much civilian clothing and then parts of uniforms belonging to all units which appeared or even didn't appear in this area, of English and Jugoslav and Italian and, unfortunately also, German uniforms, and, then very frequently they had this Serbian cap on and mostly they wore a star or even a hammer and sickle for rex material on their caps and sometimes they even wore an emblem on their arms, but when they were in a dangerous position then often previously they tore this insignia off so that we could only see the mark which had been left from these emblems on the caps. There can be no mention at all of a standard uniform.
Q Could one say, HerrKKobe, that these Tito partisans wore an insignia which could be seen from a distance as set down by the Hague Court No. V, Case No. VII.
land warfare convention?
A No, it was like this: Four units let us, say, come into contact with the enemy in a wood and one didn't actually know what was going on, then our soldiers could hide out. I remember it distinctly, Druzi ili kollegi, that means "Are you comrades or are you communists?" and only when this was cleared up by these corps did the shooting start.
Q And now Herr Kobe you know that the Hague land warfare convention demands that a regular unit must bear its weapons openly. Was this provision also carried out by the partisans?
A Yes, with the large bands this provision was in the whole adhered to. They were their weapons openly. Of course we experienced them fighting but the Haus partisans hid their weapons and these people can only be described as pure robbers and murderers.
Q And now with regard to this point, did the partisans have a uniform leadership?
A The combat uni+s, the large bands, as far as we could establish, had no doubt a certain uniform leadership but on the other hand the haus partisans, they carried out their attacks completely independently.
Q And now a question with reference to your division, witness, for the method of fighting in your division was it very important and did it play a great part whether you were faced by regular units or whether these units could not be regarded as regular units in the sense of the Hague land warfare convention?
A No, this did not play a part. The enemy, that is, the hostile enemy, large bands, were regarded by us as a brave enemy and we treated them in this way. This can also be seen quite clearly from our reports.
Q And the last prerequisite of the Hague land warfare condition witness, is as you know, whether the unit concerned observes the laws and customs of war. Can you tell us whether this provision was also in existence on the part of the bands?
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
A No, unfortunately these provisions were not present with the large enemy bands. Nevertheless because of their otherwise brave fighting we observed this and I would not have mentioned this here at all if the Jugoslavs were not accusing us today of violation of the laws of war. Therefore, here again this is only a question of defense.
Q Herr Kobe, might I ask you perhaps your assertion that the large bands to as well as the small bands did not observe the laws and customs of war; perhaps you could give us an example of this from your own knowledge?
A Yes, in Autumn 1944 we carried out a large operation in the Kozora valley and there we intended to find the so-called Eleventh Partisan Corps. The operation was lead personally by my Divisional Commander. Through this we wanted to release a number of Italian and German prisoners which we knew were in the hands of the bands. The surprise failed and our soldiers were only able to find the fresh corpses of the murdered prisoners. As far as I remember there were about 2 dozen German and Italian prisoners and we found the corpses there on the spot and when the enemy units fought us on the passes the peaceful population who were carrying on their usual business there, they were plundered and deported and in the same way that excesses were also found by us during enemy advances into our area. Then in January 1944, or was it the beginning of February, our main dressing station which was situated in a village directly West of Bringe and which was very clearly marked. This was attacked by the Partisans and we were only able to halt them immediately before the hospital tents near Bunic about 10 kilometers from Pisac mentioned in the indictment on the map. A Lieutenant of our regiment 847th, during a retreat, was wounded. When, as the result of a shot in his leg he had to remain there; we could not take him along; his own comrades saw how members of the 35th Band Division killed him. Then a so-called operative officer of the 13th Band Division was captured by us this division got into contact with us in order to exchange this man which was of course very valuable to them and they offered us 15 German Court No. V, Case No. VII.
prisoners. We agreed to the suggestion and the exchange was carried out Northwest of Ogulin. All the exchanged people, I think 15 German soldiers, had to be treated for a vary long time in the Field Hospital. They were bare-footed and completely in rags, even without their former uniforms. I, myself, spoke with some of them and they told ma that they had to go barefooted over the rocky mountains and partially chained with wire on their hands. Now, in this connection I would like to tell you about the and of my Divisional Commander, General Mickel. A comrade of my division who came back told me that General Mickel want with officers and man with the divisional staff North of Senj, carried out desperate counter attack towards the and of the war was woundad with many officers. He want with these wounded officers into Volkswagens to the base of Senj and landed into a hiding place of partisans who had to get through. Since ha was not able to fight at all General Mickel surrendered. The Partisan Fuehrer in charge there accepted the surrender and the officers climbed out of their cars in order to be disposed of.
After a short consideration the Partisan officer took a pistol there and shot all the officers who were standing around. General Mickel remained lying there with eight shots in his breast, and his adjutant, who was not wounded so much fell into the rocks. Shortly afterwards one of our own Panzer Group came from Senj in order to release the prisoners. General Mickel and his orderly were picked up by the two tanks which were fighting quite near, and were taken along with them, and on the some night or the next morning, my divisional commander died.
DR. TIPP: Your Honor, at the moment I have no further questions to Herr Kerbe.
JUDGE CARTER: Are there any questions by other defense counsel? If not you may cross-examine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FULKERSEN:
Q. Witness, I believe you said that you were born in 1914?
A. Yes.
A You heard the question and your answer is you were born in 1914?
A. Yes.
Q And you said you became an officer candidate in 1932?
A. Yes.
Q. You were about 18 years old at the time?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were continuously in the Wehrmacht from 1932 up until the time you were released as a prisoner of war, last December, I believe you said?
A. December before last.
A So that you were then a professional officer?
A. Yes.
Q. And you intended to stay in the Army, I presume, to make that your life career?
A. No, that wasn't quite clear at the time. I didn't know whether I should remain with the Wehrmacht or whether I should not take over the sphere of work on the farm of my father-in-law in Mecklenburg after the war. I couldn't judge that at all at that time how things would turn out.
Q. And would you tell mo again, please, when it was this division, this 392nd Croatian Division, was activated?
A. In the Autumn of 1943 it was activated.
Q. That was in the neighborhood of Vienna?
A. Yes.
Q. Were most of these non-commissioned officers Volksdeutsche were they racial Germans, rather than Reichsdeutsche? What I am getting at, I assume that most of these non-commissioned officers in the division spoke Serbian or Croatian, did they not?
A. No, most of the NCOs were Germans.
Q. And what percentage would you say of the total strength of the division were German Nationals, as opposed to racial Germans?
A. I don't know. The German personnel of the division consisted of soldiers of the whole territory which belonged at that time to the Reich.
Q. And I believe that you said that the actual,--the men themselves, that is the Croatians, who composed the main strength of the division, were furnished you by the Croation Ministry of War?
A. Yes.
Q. And any replacements that you had to have later came from the same source?
A. Yes, but not directly, but as I have already said, they came via the reserve troop units which were near Vienna.
Q. I just want to ask you a couple of questions about the theory on which you interpreted some of these documents. You remember commenting on one document which reported the destruction of a hospital with 50 beds by some clement of the 114th Division; do you remember that, having seen that document and having commented on it?
A. Yes.
Q. And you explained to us, although the word "hospital" was used in the document, that actually what was meant was ammunition depot or headquarters?
A. No, the whole installation itself was a strong point. It consisted of these huts, a munitions depot and a telephone office.
Q. I am sorry. I must have misunderstood you. I was under the impression that you said that this hospital that was described in this other document was not properly speaking a hospital, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And your one explanation for that was that they had to use this telegraphic style in these communications, that is they couldn't go into a lot of detail and explain everything?
A. Yes, I illustrated a report of the 1144th Rifle division by reason of my experience.
Q. Yes, that is right. But you made the point that you didn't expect too much in the way of grammatical nicety from these telegraphic reports?
A. Yes. A radio message was generally not very detailed with us, but I know the district, and therefore I thought that I could clarify the affair a little.
Q. But one reason that the communication was not clear, as I understood your explanation, was that you couldn't expect very discriminating, language to be used in these telegraphic reports, is that true?
A. Yes, I said that in these radio messages one couldn't give details as have been brought forward here now.
Q. Then you were asked by another document, which did actually concern your own division, but which, if I remember correctly, you said you didn't remember; independent of that is the document which went something like this: "Intention hare hunt, code name Lagerlaben.
200 forcible recruite." I believe was the term. Now, you explained that you could gather from that document that these 200 forcible recruits were persons who had already been recruited by the partisans, because if the report had meant that it was your division who was recruiting them, that they would have used the term "recruitment," or "recruiting," rather than "recruits?"
A. Yes, if that had been the case then we would have expressed it like that.
Q. Don't you think that is drawing a rather fine line to assume that the phrase "Zwangsrekrutierung" and not the term "Zwangsrekrutierton" would have been used, and that the difference between these two words, that is the difference between three letters, would change the meaning of the whole message?
A. Of course our German language allows and demands that such a difference should be made, and in my opinion there can be no debate necessary about this report.