A. The organization Todt.
Q. What labor did they use?
A. I don't know. I never saw a snow tunnel under construction. When I came to Norway for the first time these snow tunnels were already in existence.
Q. Would you say, witness, that the Armed Forces Commander Norway is the highest military representative the German Reich had in that country?
A. The Armed Forces Commander Norway was the highest military representative in the occupied Norwegian territory.
Q. He had no influence over prisoner-of-war affaris?
A. No.
Q. You know that definitely?
A. Yes, because I was the chief of this command.
Q. Where was the 6th Mountain Division stationed around April, May, 1945?
A. The 6th Mountain Division was on the Lyngen front.
Q. Were you ever there during that time?
A. No, I was for the last time in the Lyngen positions on an inspection in November, 1944. The army high command at that time was in Lillehammer, 200 kilometers North of Oslo.
Q. Did General Pemsel at that time command the 6th Mountain Division?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the 6th Mountain Division have any Russian prisonersof-war at its disposal at that time?
A. The 6th Mountain Division had construction troops of various kinds at its disposal. Whether this also included construction battalions which consisted of former prisoners-of-war, I don't know in detail.
Q. Witness, I didn't ask you about construction battalions which consisted of former prisoners-of-war.
I am asking you whether or not the 6th Mountain Division had Russian prisoners-of-war at that time working for them?
A. I don't know about this in detail but it is possible that up there amongst forces of the organization Todt forces of the inspectorate of prisoners were there but I really don't know how they were constituted because at that time I was never in the Lyngen positions.
Q. Yes, I didn't ask you about the organization Todt. I didn't ask you about anybody else. It is a question which you could answer yes or no or you could say I know or I don't know.
A. I said I don't know in detail how the labor was constituted in the construction of the Kittal positions.
Q. What relation has your answer to the question as to whether or not the 6th Mountain Division used Russian prisoners-of-war.
A. I don't know to what extent Russian prisoners-of-war were used by them, and whether they were construction troops or whether they were prisoners-of-war which had been authorized in some other way, who were in some way under the organization Todt, and who worked there because the Todt organization was used to a large extent in building and extending these positions.
Q. Witness, how far was the Tana River approximately from Hammerfest?
A. I estimate approximately 400 kilometers.
Q. Hammerfest was destroyed 400 kilometers beyond the point where the Russians,so to speak, didn't advance any more?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever talk to the defendant Rendulic or were you ever present when General Rendulic discussed with other persons ideological matters, or his attitude towards the church?
A. No, at that time we were undertaking an operation which occupied the Chief of the Army from early morning until very late at night, and whenever he could be had to undertake trips to critical points of the Front and I had no time at all for any ideological conversations during this period, that is during the autumn and winter of 1945.
Q. Witness, I don't want you to confine yourself to any particular time; my question was applicable for the entire time that General Rendulic was in Norway.
A. I have already stated that I had no important conversations of this kind with my Commander-in-Chief.
Q. Do you know his attitude towards the church?
A. I have no idea at all of what General Rendulic's attitude was towards the church.
Q. Are you familiar with his political ideology?
A. Yes, I think I know that.
Q. Would you care to tell us that?
A. He was a convinced German officer and leader of troops.
MR. RAPP: I have no further questions on cross-examination, Your Honor.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, I have a few questions arising from the cross-examination.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Q. General, first of all a general question; you feel that you are under oath as far as not only facts are concerned, but also as to military views and conclusions?
A. Yes.
Q. There has been mention of the term Fuehrer Order, and in connection with this the question of military necessity; did you regard every Fuehrer Order from the very beginning entirely as a military necessity or did you presuppose that the question of military necessity was not necessarily bound up with a Fuehrer Order; do you understand that?
A. Yes, I understand you. Fuehrer Orders of this kind--
Q. Excuse me, witness. Did a Fuehrer Order, according to your views at that time always contain a military necessity? At the moment I am not only talking about the order of 20 October.
A. Yes, as far as they concerned military matters.
Q. Then you want to say that a Fuehrer Order and Military necessity correspond, so to speak?
A. Well, I can't think anything else than that the Fuehrer Orders in a military sphere were chocked as far as their military necessity was concerned, and they were issued in this sense.
Q. General, it is well known that military orders in themselves are not supposed to be checked because in this way the sense of a binding order would be changed; in military life were there orders where in spite of this restriction which I have just stated, the military necessity was particularly mention or discussed?
A. Yes, discussions of this kind were made.
Q. Therefore then does the question of military order and military necessity necessarily coincide?
A. In my opinion, yes.
Q. We have spoken about the military necessity of this Norwegian operation, and in this connection the question of whether in addition to that which we call military necessity there were other necessities or reasons mentioned in it, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you received the order of 28 October did you raise the question of military necessity or not?
A. Of course I and other people in a small circle considered this question.
Q. Then did you carry out the order because it was a Fuehrer order or did you also carry it out because you realized the military necessity?
A. We carried it out because in this order we saw clearly an order of military necessity.
Q. Therefore, then General are there not two check points, firstly the point of whether the Fuehrer order can be checked at all and the question of whether the military necessity contained in the order may be checked?
A. Every responsible soldier would with regard to such a grave order consider the question of military necessity.
Q. And at that time did you ask yourself the question?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. General, then in this connection there was also mentioned, as I have already mentioned, that other reasons played a part; by this I mean the political reasons which have already been extensively discussed;
did these reasons play a part in your answering in the affirmative the question of military necessity?
A. These political reasons did not concern us as military authorities.
Q. And then when agreeing to the question of military necessity did you reckon with these reasons at all?
A. This for us had nothing at all to do -with the question of military necessity, therefore we didn't reckon on this in the consideration of the military necessity.
Q. General, you know the order of 28 October, but nevertheless I would like to submit it to you again. It is Exhibit 503 in Document Book 22, page 6. German page 6 and English page 8. I would ask you to read the second paragraph marked by me:
A. "Commander-in-Chief, North Finnland." That was the Commander in Chief of 20th Mountain Army. "Is responsible for the ruthless execution of the Fuehrer Order. Only in this way can we prevent the Russians, equipped with strong forces and supported by habitable dwellings and the population which knows the locality, from following our withdrawal movement in the winter and in a short while appearing before the Lyngen positions. Compassion for the civilian population is uncalled for."
Q Now, besides these military reasons is there perhaps somewhere else in the order a political reason which would have influenced you?
A This paragraph which I have just read only talks about the military reasons.
Q And do you remember from whom you heard about the alleged political reasons which were mentioned in the cross-examination?
A Perhaps from telephone calls which were made with the OKW I must have heard about that, because with the Reich Commissary or any other office, I never talked at all about this order.
Q General, then what was the actual purpose in holding up the Russians?
A The purpose in holding back the Russians was one to carry out the movement unhindered, and secondly, the gain time in order to construct now positions.
Q General, well then what was the purpose for whose protection were these things done?
A The purpose of our measures was to spare the lives of German soldiers and to prevent them from destruction.
Q How long does the winter last in Finnmark?
A Winter in this area lasts well into May.
Q And when was the withdrawal of the troops, which you wanted to maintain and protect, concluded?
A The bulk of the troops had marked across the Lyngen Fjord in January -- February. The movement toward the counter and south of Norway was still however in progress when we capitulated.
Q Until which time of the year were accommodations of great significance?
A Until the snow had melted, that is about until then end of May.
Q General, in this connection there was mention in the cross-examination about the position in Germany.
I think we must talk briefly about this. When did the Russian offensive start in 1945 on the Vistula?
A I can't remember the date anymore.
Q Do you know where the Russians were on the German front in the middle of January?
AAs far as I know fighting was going on on the border of East Prussia.
Q And the Western forces?
A The Western forces were in the west, the Ardennes offensive was concluded so that at this time the enemy was standing approximately on the Reich Frontier.
Q I am interested to know whether at this time the occupation of any of Germany had occurred.
According to what you just said it hadn't taken place.
A Yes, if I can remember correctly at this time the actual Reich territory was in German hands and fighting was going on at the Reich frontiers.
Q General, in your direct examination you stated that by reason of the OKW order of 28 October a telephone conversation took place between your Commander in Chief and General Jodi in the OKW, and in cross-examination you were also asked again about this. This telephone conversation could perhaps create the impression as if they were not in agreement with the whole solution. Can you please given an explanation about this at all?
A The whole solution was not our liking, that is it gave us great anxiety as regards our own troops, and then also the fate and welfare of those Norwegian people, and for this reason the whole solution was not our liking.
Q Now, just one brief question; there was mention of the prisoner of war system; you stated that since the Autumn of 1944 the prisoner of war administration was under Himmler.
At that time did Himmler belong to the Army?
A In his capacity as Commander of the Reserve Army, yes.
Q And Berger who was mentioned by the prosecution, did he belong to the Wehrmacht?
A Yes, he also belonged to the Wehrmacht.
Q For which reason?
A Well, I assume he had some kind of sphere of work with the commander of the Reserve Army, but details about his tasks are not known to me.
Q Then there was mention about the employment of prisoners of war and the name of General Pomsel was mentioned. Were these discussions concerned with the time when General Rendulic was still in command in Norway?
A I don't know what period of time the prosecution was thinking about. The construction of the positions by the 6th Mountain Division lasted until the capitulation, and at that time it wasn't anywhere near finished.
Q And when did General Rendulic leave Norway?
A General Rendulic left Norway in the last days of January 1945.
Q When did you say, General?
A In the last days of January.
Q As far as I remember it was January 13, do you know?
A Well, I can't say by heart.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions on behalf of defense counsel? Is there any further re cross-examination?
MR. RAPP:
I have one question, Your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. RAPP:
Q Witness, was the 20th Mountain Army at all times prepared to engage and successfully defeat the Russian enemy in opinion?
A The 20th Mountain Army was only in 1941 capable of an offensive operation as regards forces.
Q I don't know how the word "offensive" got into your answer. I merely asked whether they were prepared to engage, but how about then from a defensive point of view?
A Please, would you put this question more precisely? It wasn't clear to me.
MR. RAPP: May I ask you whether the interpreter translated "to engage" as to angreifen?
THE INTERPRETER: The answer is, yes I did.
DR. FRITSCH: On this point, your Honor, I have to object to something;I think that it is only allowed to ask questions about matters arising from the re-examination. Otherwise, this thing would never come to an end. Up till now, this has been the practice and this question was not mentioned by me in re-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: I think your statement, Dr. Fritsch, is correct but you may proceed on this one question and limit it to that alone and a semblance at least applicable to the matter which was gone into on cross-examination.
MR. RAPP: Very well, your Honor.
BY MR. RAPP:
Q. Witness, was the 20th Mountain Army in a position to defend itself successfully in the event combined Russian-Finnish forces were to follow up and attack?
A. When?
Q. At the time you expected them to do that. That is the winter of 1944-45.
A. We were ready to defend ourselves but not to defend ourselves successfully. We would have been destroyed.
Q. The element of destruction which was ordered and which was carried out was at no time as far as you know possibly supported or in some way borne out by the fact that there was some vengeance in it, was there?
A. Vengeance by whom?
Q. From you.
A. No.
Q. Merely on the basis by saying if we can't have Finnmark we want to make sure that nobody else gets it?
A. No. These considerations never played any part at all with us.
DR. FRITSCH: I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You have no questions, Judge Carter? Judge Burke, You may be excused.
DR. FRITSCH: With the permission of the Tribunal, I then call the witness General Vogel.
EVIL VOGEL, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. The witness will raise his right hand and be sworn. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, please state your full name.
A. My name is Emil Wilhelm Vogel.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. I was born on the 20th of July, 1894, in Zwickan in Saxony.
Q. And what is your profession?
A. Officer
Q. And since when has this been your profession?
A. Since the beginning of the First World War, the 1st of August, 1914.
Q. And were you ever a member of the NSDAP?
A. No.
Q. Witness, please-
MR. RAPP: Your Honor, I object. The witness is using notes. The witness appears here for the purpose of testifying to what he knows and the facts he Knows and I don't think that it is customary for him during an examination as a witness to refer to his notes.
THE PRESIDENT: That may be a matter which you can comment upon in cross-examination if you so desire.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. General, then please describe quite briefly your military career.
A. At the beginning of the First World War I was in the Royal Bavarian Army as a cadet and I served in the First World War as an officer at the front primarily on the Western front. At the end of the war I was taken over into the 200,000 men army and later on into the 100,000 men army. For three years, I trained as an officer-assistant and then for three years I led a Company in Lindau and then I served in various general staff positions of the troop general staffs until 1942. On the 1st of September, 1942, I became Commander of the 101 Rifle Division and fought in the Caucasus, the Kuban bridgehead, on the Dniepr and the Dniestr. On the 1st of August, 1944, I was entrusted with the leadership of the 36th Mountain Corps, and I was in charge of this until the end of the war.
Q. And what was your final rank?
A. General of Mountain Troops.
Q. And where are you residing at the moment?
A. At the moment, I am a British prisoner-of-war in the Nurnberg jail. I was transferred to Germany from Great Britain for the purpose of helping with the historical division.
Q. And where is this historical division stationed?
A. In Neustadt.
Q. General, since when did you have official contact with General Rendulic?
A. Since the 13th of August, 1944.
Q. And what was the position you took over at that time?
A. At that time, I took over the 36th Mountain Corps which was stationed in Lappland and that was employed with two divisions as a corps troops and this was on the heights of Kandalachka west of Murmansk.
Q. And this corps belonged to the 20th Mountain Army?
A. Yes, this corps belonged to the 20th Mountain Army.
Q. How strong were the Russian forces opposing you?
A. The Russians were materially superior to our forces. We estimated about three-fold.
Q. General, please would you speak a little slower?
A. Yes.
Q. And what about the fighting power of the Russians?
A. This was extraordinarily great. In the war my experience was that Russian divisions as regards strength as well as their fighting power were rather different in certain cases. Those forces facing my corps in Lappland belonged to the beat troops which I ever learned to know during the war. They were especially extremely good fighters in the forces and my corps was in a large jungle zone.
Q. And how did this fighting power of the Russians become visible?
A. Essentially through their great activity and through the numerical superiority. In the jungle warfare the superiority of the weapons played less of a part than the superiority of the number of the soldiers, and this superiority was existent specially amongs the Russians.
Q. And did other enemy forces play a part there?
A. Yes, the Finns. They fought on our side and on the 2nd of September, 1944, they left the war.
Q. And did a special situation arise particularly for your corps from this?
A. Yes. The situation was one of the most difficult which I ever experienced during the war, because the Finns left, the Russian forces were of course left free which had formerly been faced by the Russian forces on the Karelian front, and for us this of course had to create a particularly difficult position because in this way the numerical superiority was even greater.
Q. And were there any kinds of encirclement attempts at that time?
A. Yes. With my corps from the very beginning, the situation was unfavorable in so far as the Russians had tried to encircle the right flank of my corps. One had to take into account the fact that the 36th Mountain Corps had no contact with German troops. This attempt at encirclement of the right flank was on the whole repelled when the Finns left but there were already indications that the Russians were trying to encircle the left flank of my corps in a large circle and this seemed to us to be rather impossible because of the terrain.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take our noon recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1330 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q General, before the recess we had discussed the comparison between the strength of the Russians and your own forces. You stressed particularly the strength of the Russian forces, you had talked about the Russians having tried to circumvent your left flank; did I understand you correctly that you said that the Russians succeeded in spite of the difficult terrain to encircle the left flank of your corps?
A. Yes, that is correct. In spite of the enormous terrain difficulties I mentioned, the Russians succeeded in doing this, although there were no roads and highways through the jungle. The Russians managed to circumvent my left flank corps with considerable forces and thus reach the area of Salla and invade the left of my flank.
Q General, to talk about something else; what was General Rendulic's position among his troops?
A The General had only for a short period been with the army, but quite soon we discovered his great experience in warfare which particularly he had gained in the eastern campaign. The troops felt the great care which he took for them and the men realized how very interested he was in everything that concerned the life of his men. After the battles had started, we also felt how calm he was and how sure he was in his leadership. All that together made the General very much esteemed among his men.
Q Did this esteem have any effect or show in any form among the opponents?
A This is a question that is difficult to answer. As a rule, I have experienced that the Russians whenever they encountered a considerable leader among the enemy, they endeavored by means of propaganda to split up the good relationship between that enemy leader and his men. I recall that was also the case where General Rendulic and we were concerned. The Russians, by radio propaganda, when we were concerned.
The Russians, by radio propaganda, when we were still in our old position, and also through leaflets, attempted to spread the rumor that the General who was an Austrian was trying to let his army fall into the hands of the Russians.
Q Did this propaganda effect or influence the troops in any way?
A Propaganda always finds some foolish people who believe in it. In this case also one can say "semper ali qui ero". One has to consider that the General after all had been only a very short time with the army. We knew his military capabilities, but with regard to that other side of his character of course, the troops did not yet know it. So summarizing I can say that the Russians succeeded if only to a limited extent in bringing insecurity among the troops. One also must consider the fact that at the time we were still under the influence of the propaganda which had been spread in connection with the attempt on Hitler's life of 20 July 1944 and which propaganda was spread particularly in direction of the generals in the East.
Q Did not the troops enter the battles under the influence of this propaganda connected with their retreat would you please answer, General?
A Now the troops did not enter the battles under the influence of this propaganda, because in the meantime there was a fundamental change in the situation when General Rendulic received the golden badge, which was recognized by the men as a proof of the highest leadership's confidence in Rendulic.
Q General, well now once again deal with the question of the Russian's superiority; did this superiority also show up in the retreat?
A Yes, it did considerably see because when Finnish units became available on the Karolian front, the situation was thus. All corps in the large area of Finland fought in isolated places. The decision had to_ be made in order to preserve these three corps, which fought individually, from Russian destruction and to concentrate them in smaller areas and therefore the order was issued that all three corps were to be grouped in the north of Finland in such a way that (a) an attack of the Russians on this front could he defeated and that (b) the nickel mines of Kollessioki would further be available for the war effort and could be made use of.
Q General, when did you receive the order for the evacuation of the Finnish area, where after all your corps was stationed?
A This decision was made on 4 October 1944. The order must have been received very shortly after that.
Q And what order did you receive as a leader of your corps in particular?
A I was to lead my corps via Karasjok back to Northern Finland, that was my first order.
Q And within the scope of the whole design, what was the place your corps took?
A My corps, was to be led to the area of Northern Finland, after all these retreat battles had been concluded. In the course of these battles we had succeeded in evading encirclements which had originally been directed against my flank and then we were even in a position to free forces which could be led to the front on which the 19th corps was fighting valiantly on the Artic Sea Front.
Q General, at this point may I interrupt you, what was the position of your corps within the scope of the withdrawal movement, what was the place that your corps took, was it within the center group or where was it?
A My corps was in the middle of the three Finnish corps and the 18th and 36th corps had to be withdrawn, that is, they had to be separated from enemy forces.
Q And what was the position of your corps after that?
A Then this corps was marched up to Northern Finland.
Q Is it correct, General, that you were a leader of the rear guards?
Q. And in what area were these destructions to take place?
General, would you please wait a moment after I have put my question?
Do you still remember ay question?
A. "In what area were the destructions to be carried out?" From the line Karasjak, Laks-Elf to the Lyngen Fjord.
Q. General, would you please be kind enough to show us these localities on the map?
A. Here is Karasjok. Here is Laks-Elf. Here is Highway 50 and here is the Lyngen Fjord, and that was the district up to where the destruction was to be carried out.
Q. If I understood you correctly, General, you moved along this line which you showed us just now on the map.
A. Yes, that is so.
Q. You yourself experienced the winter up there in the extreme north. Can one in those areas live without houses?
A. Without houses? No. It is under all circumstances essential to have a heated accommodation.
Q. Can one have provisional quarters there and can these be quickly manufactured up there?
A. No, one cannot dig into that soil because after a thin layer of earth there is rocky ground. In contrast to Finland which has many words, there is in Finmark almost no wood at all. The woodland only starts in the area near Alta. Therefore, the building of accommodations which demands transport of timber was not possible up there.
Q. Now, how about building snow huts?
A. Snow huts can be constructed if there is sufficient snow available. However, at that season there was sufficient snow as a rule. Besides, we must consider that snow huts can only mean a temporary accommodation for small units, not for larger units or even for army bodies such as divisions or corps.
Q. In those areas through which you marched was the population still present?
A. No. The evacuation had started much earlier than that. It was carried out by the evacuation staff of the army headquarters which included a representative of the Reich Commissioner.
Q. Did your troops help in the supply of the evacuated population?
A. In individual instances, yes. Inasmuch as my troops go in contact with the evacuated population, those were mainly parts of columns which had been led back at an early date, supply installations, et cetera. In such cases the troops helped whenever possible. They helped by putting trucks at the disposal of the evacuees. They helped transporting the old and sick people, women and children and they put medical equipment and doctors at their disposal, et cetera. Trucks and ambulances were put at their disposal; food, hot drinks, et cetera were given to the evacuees. I also know that even troop kitchens were put at the disposal of the evacuees.
Q. General, you were then in charge of the roar guards, weren't you? Did it income known to you that individual inhabitants tried to evade the ordered evacuation?
A. Yes, that was unfortunate and there were individual instances where some people -- in some instances, even women and children -- evaded the well planned evacuation and hid in the mountains or in other hideouts.
Q. Did you order anything to counter these incidents or how did your troops cope with the situation?
A. I learned these incidents only after the reports of the troops had already been passed on. The troops coped with the situation by evacuating those people which they happened to find still in their houses. They made them leave their houses and allowed them to take the most essential things with them and then these refugee were transported in the trucks of the destruction troops, evacuated and delivered to the collection places.
Q. It has been asserted that the inhabitants quite frequently had to witness their houses being burned down.