A. Yes. At the beginning , after the collapse of the Jugoslav Army, posters of this sort containing a threat were put up and when the threat was not sufficient the threats were translated into action.
MR. RAPP: Thank you very much. That is all, Your Honors.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Dr. Sauter, do you have further questions?
DR. SAUTER: Dr. Sauter for the defendant Geitner. Witness, only one question following up the last question put to you by the prosecution: did you know General Bader and General Felber personally?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You also knew General von Geitner personally, did you?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you know the other members of the staff, of the commanding officer personally?
A. I did.
Q. Do you believe that a single reprisal measure would have been carried out if the civilian population or bands had not committed acts of sabotage or attacks?
A. If the civilian population had not ambushed and murdered German soldiers and committed acts of sabotage, it is my conviction that no reprisal measure would have been resorted to against the civilian population.
Q. And what, according to your knowledge of the conditions in Belgrade, was the sole and single purpose of this threat of reprisal measures.
A. As I said before, it was hoped that the people would be sufficiently shocked --namely, that the individual who had murdered a. German soldier or committed an act of sabotage would thereby act against his own people in a criminal way.
Q. Will you give me a. more precise answer, please? What was the purpose , as you see it, of the threats pertaining to reprisal measures? What was intended by the German occupation?
A. The purpose of the threads of the reprisal measures was through this method to prevent acts of sabotage.
Q. To prevent? I see. Thank you very much.
DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions.
MR. RAPP: Witness, what are you doing now? What is your present occupation?
A. I am an assistant of a manager with an American agency.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Are there further questions on the part of defense counsel? Are there questions on the part of the members of the Tribunal?
What did you say your present avocation is?
A. I am the deputy manager of an American hospital. I am in an ice cream bar in a hospital.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You maybe excused.
DR. SAUTER: May it please the Tribunal, if the Court agrees, I would call my next witness who is Dr. Henrich Bub. The witness is present.
DR. HEINRICH BUB, a witness, took the stand and testified as follow
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Will the witness please raise his right hand and repeat after me the words of the oath: "I swear by God the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing." (Witness repeated the oath) Very well; you may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, you needn't wear your earphones now. You can understand me as it is.
A. Yes.
Q. You know that after each question you should make a little pause so that the interpreters can follow. Please remember that.
Witness, what is your full name?
A. Dr. Heinrich Bub.
Q. Perhaps you would spell the last word.
A. B-U-B (spelling)
Q. When were you born?
A. On the 22nd of December 1907.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I am a dentist.
Q. And where do you live?
A. In Kirchenlamitz.
Q. Where is that?
A. In Upper Franconia.
Q. Witness, were you a member of the Party?
A. I was.
Q. Just a moment,please. Don't shout.
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Otherwise the microphone carries your voice too loudly and the ears of the audience will be affected
A. I'm sorry.
Q. You can speak quite softly, you know.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Follow the example of Dr. Sauter.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, when you answer the next questions you canagain talk softly.
Were you with the Party?
A. Yes.
Q. Since when?
A. Since the first of May 1933.
Q. Do you mean a few months after the seizure of power?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you join the Party? As a dentist?
A. Well, that might well have been a reason because at the time in the papers there were proclamations, if I can recall it, for dentists to join the Party.
Q. Were you also in the SS?
A. No.
Q. Never?
A. No.
Q. The SA?
A. Yes, I was a medical officer with the SA, and I examined the teeth of the local SA men.
Q. In other words your duties with the SA were simply those of a dentist, nothing else?
A. No.
Q. Did you hold any office in the Party?
A. I did not.
Q. Now, Dr. Bub, how was it that you met General von Geitner?
A. In December, 1941 I had been transferred to the office in Belgrade.
Q. Were you an active officer before?
A. No, I was not an active officer.
Q. You were not an active officer, but you were a reserve officer?
A. I was a reserve officer.
Q. Since when?
A. In March, 1940 I was promoted lieutenant in the reserve.
Q. Where you serve at first as an officer?
A. You mean after I was promoted to lieutenant?
With my unit, at the time the 115th Artillery Regiment. We were in Westphalia when I was promoted, and then I took part in the French campaign, and after that the campaign in Yugoslavia.
Q. When was it that you went to Serbia, to Yugoslavia?
A. At first I took part in the campaign in Yugoslavia.
Q. Please don't forget the pause, between question and answer.
Then after the campaign, for a few months, I was with the reserve units aNd quite independently from any participation in the campaign, I was in December , 1941, transferred to the office where later on I met General von Geitner. The office was then still called Military Commander Serbia.
Q. So there you were since December, roughly Christmas , 1941, were you?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. December 1941? I see.
And how long did you stay there?
A. I remained with the agency, which later on was renamed Commanding General and Commander in Chief Serbia , until about the 25th of August 1943.
Q. That was the same office, in other words, in which Herr von Geitner functioned as Chief of the General Staff?
A. Yes, it was the same office.
Q. Please don't forget the full stop, Dr. Bub.
A. Yes, it was the same office in which General von Geitner was then a Colonel on the General Staff, and to which he was transferred in June or July, 1942, as Chief of Staff.
Q. What department did you have , or what were the tasks you had down there? Were you there as an medical officer or in another capacity?
A. No, I was not. I was the fourth aide-de-camp there, and I was with the Department la, or Id as it was called also. I could perhaps explain here that with the Commanding General Serbia Departments Ia. and Id were quite more closely linked than was the case usually. Usually it was the case that the Ia had his aide-de-camp, who was called the first aide-de-camp. And Id ("D" for David ) , who was also called fourth officer on the General Staff, also had his aide-de-camp, who, therefore, was called fourth aide-de-camp. But in the case of the Commanding General Serbia, the fact was that the officer who held the position of the fourth General Staff officer, at that period of time at least, was not an officer who had been trained for General Staff work, and perhaps for that or other reasons he was regarded more as another aide-de-camp of the first General Staff Officer.
Q. Witness, in other words, you were an assistant to the Ia?
A. Yes, I was an assistant to Ia.
Q. Well, now can you tell the Court briefly, in one sentence, what the la had to do?
A. Ia, to put it briefly, as the General Staff Office, had tactical duties.
Q. And you were the assistant?
A. I was one of his assistants.
Q. And what were your duties?
A. My duties amounted to keeping the index and also was concerned with formations and military arrangements. Also, sometimes I would keep the War Diary, and I was also entrusted on occasions with compiling the material for the Daily Reports.
Q. Did you, in that capacity and by virtue of that work, see and talk much or little with Herr von Geitner?
A. It was those duties which brought me into contact almost regularly with Herr von Geitner. Besides, I had a number of other duties, of course, which brought me into contact less with Herr von Geitner or not at all. I deliberately only mentioned those tasks which would bring me into contact with Herr von Geitner because I assume that the other things would not be of interest here.
Q. Did you and Herr von Geitner talk only about official service matters, or did you meet outside office hours, so to speak? For instance , at dinners or anything like that?
A. On a number of occasions I would dine with Herr von Geitner. It was customary for the Commanding General to cultivate social relations with officers with whom he would eat in a special mess for reasons of accommodation only, because it was quite impossible for all officers to eat in one and the same mess, and so it was usual that other officers too would do so on special occasions. For instance on their birthdays they would eat in the mess of the Commanding General.
Q. Did Herr von Geitner talk with you about official service matters - political affairs and things like that - quite openly I mean? or was he somewhat reserved, as far as you were concerned?
A. Herr von Geitner, as far as official matters were concerned, particularly political matters, would talk to his younger officers in the Department in a well-nigh sensationally open manner, surprisingly open, from the point of view of the difference in rank , I mean. He did this to an extent which I have never found elsewhere.
Q. Do you believe, therefore, that you, on the basis of your work at that time, could recommend Herr von Geitner's personality and attitude?
A. I think I can, yes.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Dr. Sauter, we'll conclude the session for today and resume at nine-thirty tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal recessed at 1630 --to Resume session at 0930 22 October 1947)
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal V, Case VII in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 22 October 1947, 0930 hours, Judge Wennerstrum, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judge of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if all the defendants are present in the Courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom except Rendulic who has been excused and von Weichs, who has been excused because of illness and who is still in the hospital.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with your examination Dr. Sauter.
HEINRICH BUB - Continued DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Dr. Bub, you told us yesterday that from 1941 to 1943 you were with the office of the Commander in Chief Serbia as ADC and that it was there that you met Herr von Geitner. Now, could you tell us what your impression was of Von Geitner's personality and the way he managed his office?
A General von Geitner impressed me as a noble minded and honest man. As a soldier, his whole work was based on the strongest sense of responsibility and duty. In my opinion he devised all measures where might would rule over right. In no sense of the word was he as a soldier inclined to bully nor was he inclined to be subservent to those above and to kick the people below. To the people above him he showed strength, whereas to the people under him he attempted to be considerate and diplomatic. Particularly as far as the Serbian people was concerned it was his endeavor to avoid all hardship and he went so far on this that his efforts and his sense of duty, which he had would take the background on occasions and he took the responsibility to circumvent orders from superior agencies.
Q Witness, as for his attitude toward the Serbian people; did you consider from your conversation with Herr von Geitner and from your other observations that his attitude toward the Serbian people was that policy of force should be employed?
A No, he did not want to do that at all. On the contrary I had the opportunity to discuss in great detail with Herr von Geitner the Serbian people and I learned exactly what he thought and felt toward the Serbian people. I always had the opportunity to make these observations when he was on official trips and when I accompanied him on several occasions, including a trip which lasted several days to Sofia, the Bulgarian capital where for a few days we traveled entirely alone in a compartment and when without hesitation we could discuss those things quite frankly.
Q Witness, you went to the office in Belgrade in December of 1941?
A Yes.
Q When did Herr von Geitner go there as you remember it?
A Herr von Geitner arrived in July or Juno, I am not sure which month, but it was in 1942.
Q In other words, you had been there for six months before Herr von Geitner arrived) is that correct?
A Yes, I had been there for about six months before Herr von Geitner arrived.
Q You know that in Belgrade a largo number of reprisals had boon ordered) you know that don't you?
A Well, the expression "a large number of reprisals" you mean a lot of reprisal measures?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q Were those reprisal measures ordered before Herr von Geitner arrived there or were they ordered after he arrived?
A Reprisal measures had been ordered before Herr von Geitner arrived, The reprisal measures had been ordered even before I myself arrived and then circumstances existed when I appeared.
Q Did Herr von Geitner introduce that system there?
A It was not Herr von Geitner who introduced the system.
Q From your association with Herr von Geitner or other people, did you form the impression that defendant von Geitner wanted to intensify this system of reprisal measures when he held office?
A No, he did not want to do that.
Q Well, what conviction did you form in that direction?
A It was always my impression that Herr von Geitner wanted to put on the breaks as much as he could and he wanted to save as many Serbian lives as possible; advocating a constructive policy of reconstruction or some term like that about which I am not quite clear.
Q Did you hear from his own mouth whether or not he approved orders concerning reprisal measures which came down to him from the superior authorities, did he make any remarks about this to you in your circle?
AAs far as the basic orders were concerned concerning reprisal measures and similar, let me say extreme orders, which came down from above, he expressed himself in a manner and he commented on them in such a manner that I had no doubt myself that Herr von Geitner disapproved of these measures because of his innermost convictions.
Q Can you give us more details about how he expressed himself perhaps he used certain terms which you might tell us?
A I remember precisely that in that connection the expression was used. "They must be crazy" and ho meant the highest leadership
Q You mean the highest leadership; who?
A Hitler above all and even some of his closest collaborators he meant.
I cannot say who it was because he did not mention any names.
Q On the basis of your observations and experience, did you form the impression that those measures of retaliation wore necessary or did you regard these measures as completely or partially superfluous?
A They were necessary inasmuch as after the autumn of 1941 the partisan warfare at first a nuisance, later abanding everywhere called for counter measures.
Q What do you think, bearing in mind what you heard and observed that the aim was that von Geitner considered with regard to these measures of retaliation; what was perhaps on his mind in that respect?
A Now in the final analysis it was a method of presenting the insurgents and those who sympathized with them from further acts of terror. In that respect the country was to be pacified and law and order was to be re-established.
Q It has been alleged that somebody had pursued the aim to decimate the Serbian people and exterminate them; did you hear anything of a plan of that sort?
A Of any such plan, I never heard anything and I can hardly imagine it. On the contrary the German leadership had to endeavor at the time to preserve the Serbian people as a going concern so to speak. As far as we were concerned, t he Serbia was important to us at least for the duration of the war in the much as they supplied us with raw materials. I would only like to mention here the copper mines of Bor which in the spring of 1941 had been destroyed almost completely, the installations, etc., with great expenditure, they were made to run again, a road was built and as far as I remember there was even a new railway line, which was to be constructed. I cannot remember where it was to go, but it was near the main line near Nish. The other line was somewhat devastated and for that reason a new railway was to be constructed, which was to do the work and which would run from Bor to the west toward the main line to Belgrade.
Q Witness, any plan to exterminate or disseminate the Serbian people remained unknown at least to you and the circle of the Wehrmacht?
A We never heard anything about that.
Q Well, I am anxious to know whether you knew anything about whether Herr von Geitner made efforts that more German troops and better German troops should be transferred to Serbia so that in that way the terror acts could be stopped and retaliation acts would be superfluous; do you know anything about that from your own observations.
A I know that very well from my own observations. Not only was it said in almost every situation report and these situation reports were somewhat extensive, the average being about 6 to 8 pages at the time, which went out every ten days to the superior agencies, in other words in almost all these situation report he said that the existing forces were entirely inadequate to pacify the country. Apart from that, in a number of these reports it was suggested that new and better forces should be sent there. Apart from that, on frequent occasions special applications were made that new troops should be sent down.
Q There were applications in other words, if I understand you correctly, which pursued the aim to get more German troops and better German troops to Serbia.
A Yes, that is so.
Q So that through them further acts of sabotage could be prevented?
A Yes.
Q Do you know from your own observations that these efforts on the part of Herr von Geitner were often frustrated by other agencies in Belgrade, that is to say that his efforts were opposed by other agencies.
A I do not know that other German agencies were opposed to the transfer of new and better troops there.
Q Did it not occur that plans of Herr von Geitner were frustrated e.g. by the Higher SS and police leader or by the general plenipotentiary for economic affairs or by the plenipotentiary of the foreign office; do you know anything about that?
AAs far as the plans of Herr von Geitner or of the Commanding General were concerned were frustrated by the agencies you have mentioned happened on frequent occasions, but as far as I know that was not the case when the problem was to get more German troops into Serbia.
Q In what case did that happen?
A That mainly happened as far as I can remember, when the simplification of the whole channels of command in Serbia was concerned. The way the channels of command were run in Serbia was so complicated that as far as the commanding general was concerned, who after all was the commander in chief of Serbia at least it was quite impossible for him actually to have his intentions carried out.
In fact, he was commander in chief in Serbia in a very limited sense of the word, What happened frequently was that if something had been ordered, which other agencies did not like particularly I should name here the Higher SS and Police leader and the plenipotentiary for economic affairs, Neuhausen if those people did not like something which had been ordered by the commanding general, then they would either see their own superior agency first about this - that is to say the Reich Fuehrer SS on one hand and Goering. I believe was Neuhausen' superior agency, but I am not quite sure about that and then they received orders to a different effect from t heir own agency and the commanding general was in no position to do anything about it.
Q Witness, do you know that the defendant von Geitner in many conversations and conferences always advocated that the situation of the Serbian people must be improved, that particularly the Serbian people should be bettor fed, etc.; can you tell us anything about conferences of that type and efforts made by Herr von Geitner in that direction?
A Herr von Geitner was, I might say, always making efforts to improve the conditions for the Serbian people in every respect. I remember very well a conference in a large circle where the men in charge of the more important agencies in Belgrade were present. I myself was present too and it was on that occasion that Herr von Geitner demanded with great emphasis better food supplies and I believe also that mention was made at the time that supplies of textiles and leather supplies should be improved.
Q Do you, from your own observations, witness, know that Herr von Geitner made special efforts in the direction of improving sanitary conditions and general conditions in Serbia; for instance did he try to combat typhus epidemics and things like that?
A Yes, that was the case too. In fact there was hardly any field where the commanding general was competent and where Herr von Geitner would not always time and again make new proposals and now suggestions. It was particularly in the field of hygiene that I remember now that he took very generous measures which were initiated on the occasion of the enormous movement of refugees, who came in from the eastern Bosnian area to Serbia when the typhus epidemic and other infections diseases were about to infest Serbia as well.
Q. And was it Herr von Geitner in particular who made efforts in that direction.
A. Herr von Geitner was most anxious in all these matters quite generally. He would take care of all things where he thought he could help the Serbian people. As far as the medical officer in charge, that is, the senior medical officer was concerned, the order was issued at the time to keep him always up to date and the senior medical officer would also report to him orally what could be done.
Q. Dr. Bub, I shall now go over to something else, i.e., to the whole chapter of retaliation measures. Let me ask you a preliminary question first. You as an ...D.C. -- did you have an insight into all files, orders, and documents by the Commander in Chief Serbia which were concerned with measures of retaliation?
A. Yes, certainly. I was in charge of filing documents all the time because, after all, the files which came in were large and extensive and the sergeant and no one could not and should not be in charge of it all by himself. Apart from that, perhaps late in 1942, I looked at all the files which had preceded the Commander in Chief Serbia and which we kept for him. and it was on that occasion that I saw the orders from these old files which had been closed. I took them out again and made them part of our own filing system, as far as they were still of importance. Therefore, I am in a position to say that in la there was not one order and no reports which in the course of my duties I did not at least see once.
Q. Very well, witness; so, therefore, you can tell us now, who was it in the staff of the Commander in Chief Serbia who worked on retaliation measures?
A. Would you please ask that question in a different way?
Q. All right, let me ask you first: who was competent under the Commander in Chief to order retaliation measures? Who could order them, I mean?
A. The man authorized to order retaliation measures was only and exclusively the Commander in Chief himself in his capacity as the holder of executive power.
Q. And who was that Commander in Chief?
A.- When I was there it was General Bader, General of the artillery Bader.
Q. Bader, you mean?
A. Yes.
Q. And after him was it General Felber by any chance?
A That was after I left.
Q. I see.
A. I left at the same time with General Bader and I joined the 21st Mountain Corps.
Q. Witness, as far as these orders for retaliation are concerned, did they come from the Commanding General himself? Were they so to say an invention on the part of the Commanding General or who was it that was at the bottom of these orders?
A. The orders did not come from General Bader. They were basic orders which originated in the Supreme command.
Q. What do you mean "Supreme command"? Who is that?
A. Well, I suppose OKH or perhaps even OKW; in the last analysis, Hitler probably.
Q. So you e.re telling us this: they were basic orders from Hitler, the OKW and OKH?
A. Yes.
Q. How is it that you know that for the issuance of retaliation orders the Commanding General was only and solely responsible? How do you know that?
A. To order retaliation measures is a task within the sphere of executive power and the executive power in this specific case was invested in General Bader. It was he alone who was in a position to order measures of that sort.
Q. Did the Chief of General Staff with the Commanding General Serbia, which in this case was General von Geitner, not have anything to do with executive power?
A. No, he was only responsible for the field of general staff work; that is to say, all questions concerning administration and supplying troops.
Q. Now, you tell us that these basic orders came down from higher up. Did these basic orders contain letters, directives in the direction that the execution of retaliation measures would be supervised by these supreme agencies?
A. The carrying out of these measures was always supervised from higher up.
Q. How?
A. It had been ordered that, together with the report of a terror act, it should be reported also what measures had been taken in return or at least what plans existed in that respect. The confirmation that such measures had actually been carried out had also to be reported.
Q. Was the observation of those directives controlled from higher up and supervised in any way or was that a directive which was more or less on paper?
A. There was somebody higher up, undoubtedly, who watched extremely carefully whether in retaliation for a certain act of terror which had been reported on a certain day there would also be reports about the measures taken in return and about the way they were carried out.
Q. Has it ever happened, witness, that superior agencies actually complained if there were no reports about execution of retaliation measures or could you hope that the people higher up would overlook such an omission.
A. I don't think you could hope for that and there were complaints of that sort. I should say there were complaints.
Q. Witness, do you know from your own observations whether it was usual for the Commander in Chief Serbia to observe these instructions very strictly or whether efforts were made to circumvent and by pass or at least modify these orders?
A. As far as it was possible efforts were made to by pass the order.
Q. How was that done?
A. Well, for instance, it happened on numerous occasions that an act of terror was not reported to higher up at all and, therefore, no measures had to be taken in return nor was there any need to report them.
Q. Now, just a moment about that point; was it not reported intentionally, you mean, or was it not reported simply out of negligence?
A. It was deliberately not reported in order to bypass the retaliation measures; to keep these things dark and not pass them on could only be done if you wanted to do it successfully in cases where one did not need to fear that the act of terror would reach the higher agency through the channels of another agency. These other agencies had their own channels how to report to their own superior agencies; and to give you a general example in order to make this quite clear, if, for instance, in a big coal mine an act of sabotage occurred with the result that production in this plant would be interrupted for weeks or perhaps months, the General Plenipotentiary for Economic Affairs, of course, had to report this to higher up through his own channels. In a case of that sort there would have been no hope of success if our agency would have attempted to keep this act of sabotage a secret; but if, for instance, a Serbian official was murdered, it was, generally speaking, not to be assumed that some other agency to would report that their superior agencies because there was also a directive that an act of terror committed against Serbians should also be answered with retaliation measures so that persons of that sort should have a certain amount of protection; because even those people were constantly exposed to attacks by insurgents.