That one was signed by - I am not quite certain here, but I think it was signed by General Lattre de Tassigny.
Q Do you know anything else about that poster?
A. I hoard a number of things, that in the French zone even today there are posters up with the ratio from one to ten to one to fifty. That is hearsay, I have not seen it myself.
Q And what about the third poster, the third poster about which I have asked you concerning Berlin; I mean in 1946, the ratio of one to fifty; what can you tell us about that?
A. In 1946 there was in the "Neue Zeitung", a German newspaper, a brief report about Berlin and it said that there the ratio had been had been fixed from one to fifty by the Russians. That was announced that this would apply if former members of the Hitler Youth would continue to shoot at officers of the Communist party and that fifty hostages would be taken from the internment camps where Naxis were interned. That is what "Neue Zeitung" said and surely that could be found somewhere.
Q. I have no further questions to the witness. Thank you very much.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Are there further questions by defense counsel to the witness? No indication being made, Mr. Rapp will you cross-examine the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. RAPP: Thank you, Your Honor.
A. Do you speak English, witness?
A. Not very well.
Q. Your last rank was that of a first lieutenant; is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. And how long were you in the German army before you reached that rank?
A. I joined in 1933 and in 1942 I became a lieutenant and Shortly after became a first lieutenant. I am an officer who rose from the ranks.
Q. How long did it take you to become a first lieutenant?
A. About nine years.
Q. Now then, through May of 1942 and. 1944 you were in Belgrade; is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. How many times during that time were you at the front?
A. In the Balkans there was not a real front, in that sense of the word usually meant by front, these Were battles of material, and operations. If you mean by front, simply contacting the enemy, I took part on several occasions in operations, and I am afraid I could not give you the number of the times I took part in these operations?
Q. But your main duty was that of a signal intercept officer?
A. Yes, that was my duty.
Q. Now, witness, did you ever go to a General Staff School?
A. No.
Q. Were you ever in fact a General Staff Corps Officer?
A. No, the German General Staff.....
Q. That will be enough. You were not a General Staff Corps officer; is that right?
A. No, I was not a member of the General Staff.
Q. Thank you. Now you stated I believe that as far as you know and to the best of your power of observation, the then chief of staff, General von Geitner or Colonel von Geitner, did not overstep his directives or authorities as a Chief of Staff; did you say that?
A. As far as I am in a position to judge. I can answer year question in the affirmative.
Q. Have you ever seen the directives, which were given to General von Geitner?
A. No, I did not see them.
Q. Now witness, the next question: did you ever participate at the meetings between the Commanding General and his staff officers?
A. No, I never took part in these meetings.
Q. Now, who was the Commanding General or Military Commander Of Serbia when you came to Belgrade?
A. It was General Bader.
Q. And who was his successor?
A. General Felber succeeded him.
Q. Now, what was the main source of all of the information and knowledge which you have obtained in the Southeastern theater?
A. The whole source from which we received our wireless messages were the wireless communications of the radio stations under Mihajlovic from where he sent messages to his subordinate unit and as I mentioned before, the final communications to London, to the exile government and in the case of the partisans, wireless communications between Tito and his subordinate units and among the subordinate units themselves.
Q. Witness, now did you ever suspect at any time during your tour of duty that the enemy knew that you were listening in?
A. Yes, the British officers warned Mihajlovic constantly to the effect that the Germans were listening in and deciphering the messages. Mihajlovic's comments were that this was entirely impossible as he believed firmly that the Germans were unable to find the keys, or at least the source for the keys only through treason.
Q. Well, now did you believe everything that you heard?
A. Yes.
Q. And did your Commanding General or the person to whom you reported believe everything they got from you in the nature of these reports?
A. At the beginning my work was received with scepticism because people could not understand how these original wireless messages by the enemy could be listened in and deciphered and then submitted to the Commander or at least to the responsible officer.
A. General Bader was the most skeptical officer of the whole lot and I once explained to him how the thing was done from the interception until the final evaluation. I showed him this active example, one message which he listened in to himself. And another proof for this was that directives for sabotage were particularly addressed to Tito's forces--namely , to blow up the Kuma -Belgrade Railway Line.
Q. Witness, we don't have to go into all these details, I just asked you a plain question, whether or not your commanding general also believed in these radio messages, and you told me at first not and I would just like to know now when they started to believe in them, just by date approximately.
A. I did not say "no" to your question. What I said was that people were Sceptical, but later on I was able to convince them within a week or a fortnight because we had this enormous flood of wireless messages coming in.
Q. Very well. Now you did state this afternoon prior to the recess that you witnessed the burning down of several houses which I believe you stated were ordered by Gruppenfuehrer Meissner and you later on had the opportunity to hear this very report over radio of the enemy. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have other opportunities to check as far as these radio messages arc concerned in such a very fine way?
A. Yes, in some cases we heard reports about successes both on Mijajlovic and Tito's stations, and the daily reports which reached the commanding general formed the basis for checking this.
Q. Did you believe this type of report as given over the enemy radio, or did you believe they were exaggerated?
A. Reports about successes by both movements, needless to say, always exaggerated. Failure would be minimized but that is typical of the Balkan mentality and we got used to it as time went on.
Q. In other words, witness, you believed as far as these intercept messages were concerned what you wanted to believe, and you discarded that what you obviously didn't want to believe.
Is that right?
A. In this whole work I started something which I always expected our press to live up to and still do today; namely; that very often they would quote the verbatim speeches of the people concerned because that shows what was on his mind, and then, I can judge his mentality. That is the reason why in my reports I frequently quoted what was actually s aid with the result that the officer who was reading it through always knew that on such and such a day Mihajlovic said this or that or the other as he thought along those lines. I did not edit these things.
Q. You told the court that General von Geitner was not in charge or responsible for so-called reprisal measures. Is that right?
A. Yes, that is what I said.
Q. And you mentioned the name of some particular First Lieutenant -- I can't recall his name right now -- who had direct access to the Commanding General, is that right, in matters pertaining to reprisal measures?
A. Yes, it was 1st Lieutenant Bode.
Q. Very well. Now, did you state also that General von Geitner; however, was constantly interested in the general scope pertaining to reprisal measures, he talked to you about it and with his friends and through these friends you heard that in a hearsay way? Is that right?
A. I and my acquaintances would not discuss the opinions held by the Chief of Staff or the Commanding General. We only would discuss facts, because, as I have said just now, I was always highly sceptical as to opinions of individuals about other individuals because, after all, they were always colored.
Q. There is no disagreement as far as the statement is concerned that you have just made, but I just wanted to ask you whether or not it is true that General Geitner talked to you and to your friends about reprisal measures, though you told us that he had nothing to do with it.
A. In the case of the Mihajlovic order in Autumn 1942 to reduce attacks on Germans to a minimum, I mentioned that I discussed this with the then Colonel von Geitner.
Q. Now, witness, a lot of the information that you have given us this morning and this afternoonisn't really based on your own knowledge, is it?
A. I gave this information today, by virtue of my knowledge from the wireless messages which came in, and wherever I talked about details concerning the staff, when I myself was present, I do not recall having mentioned the opinions held by others. If I did, I stressed that I only heard it at the time.
Q. Now, witness, do you suppose the Commanding General in Serbia entrusted this lieutenant with the task of administering these reprisal measures because the Chief of Staff was unwilling to do this?
A. No, it was my impression -- or, in fact, I know --- that this was one of the most delicate tasks and the Commanding General intended to work on it himself and for that he wanted to relieve the Chief of Staff of further work. He was overworked as it was. And , as the whole matter was entirely within the jurisdiction of the highest judicial authority, he appointed a special expert.
Q. Now, witness, about this last statement you made regarding the threat of reprisal measures in Thuringia and Berlin, did I understand you right to say that at that time this particular town was still within the American Zone? Is that right?
A. Yes, it was at the time, by the end of April, May and June 1945.
Q. And at that time did I understand you right to say that Stuttgart was then still in the French Zone?
A. Stuttgart was first occupied by French troops and was occupied by them until about June of that year. I think that the French troops had to withdraw behind the line of demarcation, as I would call it, which was drawn, I believe, by the Autobahn Stuttgart-Ulm.
Q. That question was simply whether or not you know if a t that time Stuttgart was still administered by the French. If you don't know it just say so.
A. Stuttgart at that period of time was no longer administered by the French but by the Americans. There were however, French troops and French administrative officials still in Stuttgart and it was those who had to withdraw behind the line of demarcation.
Q. Now, you did say that the proclamation in Stuttgart was signed by a French officer? Is that right?
A. Yes, the second part; one part was in German and the other in French.
Q. And on the German part he didn't sign his name?
A. Oh, yes, he did.
Q. I understood you to say that only the other part was signed by the French.
A. No, what I add was that the poster was in two languages. On the one side there was French; on the other, German. Both were signed by the officer concerned, - in printed letters, of course.
Q. I don't quite get you, witness. Now, you mean on one side it was signed by a Frenchman and on the other side the French name was translated into German?
A. The announcement of the ration was in French on one side of the poster and had been translated into German on the other.
Q. We are now talking about the signature.
A. The signature in both cases, as far as I can remember, was "Lattre de General Tassigny-- and I think Army of the Rhine and Danube, I think. I only remember that dimly.
Q. Now, where did you see.in Berlin this alleged proclamation?
A. I did not go to Berlin. This knowledge of the ratio of 1 to 50 I received from the "Neue Zeitung."
Q. Oh, I see. You don't remember the date or the approximate month and year that that appeared?
A. I remember that it was in 1946.
Q. You couldn't narrow it down a little bit. It's got, I would say, about 180 to 200 issues.
A. No, I am unable to do that, I am afraid, but I think I could get hold of the newspaper in some archives.
Q. Where is this archive you are talking about?
A. I hope that German libraries keep the "Neue Zeitung" and collect the copies, so that one could go to a library and find the copy in the archives.
Q. Now, witness, have you been in the areas of Stuttgart and Gorensen yourself and you saw these proclamations with your own eyes? Is that right?
A. Yes, that is quite true.
Q. Now, as you were there have you heard that there had been any riots or civil commotion or unrest in that area so that such proclamations were put up?
A. No, there were no risings or cases of unrest and the German soldiers who were not prisoners were sensible enough, thank goodness, not to be involved in small acts of sabotage and petty attacks which would not have influenced the bigger at all.
Q. Now, I presume, then witness, that General Eisenhower published this proclamation and somebody in that town put it on the wall gratuitously and just so in case something may happen which never did happen.
Is that right?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Is that a question, an observation or a prognostication?
MR. RAPP: I will phrase it in a question, your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well.
Q. Witness, what did you think was the purpose , then, of this proclamation if there had been no unrest?
A. How I understood the proclamation was to show the German people a tough fist, so to speak, that in the event of small acts the effect would be enormous, and that it was merely a threat.
Q. Very well, then -- what was the purpose of the proclamation the German army posted in the Southeast theatre?
A. Same purpose.
Q. And in other words,they were not carried out?
A. Well, the 1 to 200, you mean, or the thing by the Germans?
Q. I just say since you said that, it was the same -- I just asked you whether or not in the Southeast such threats were not carried out.
A. The threats were carried out just as much, but they did not lead to any result.
Q. Just what do you mean by "genau so."
A. Posters were posted on the walls just as much -- namely, that for one murdered soldier 50 people would be shot; but the shock lasted only for a brief period of time and then the attacks would start on German soldiers.
Q. Witness, let's not beat around the bush. You know, and I'm sure understand my question perfectly clear. Now, for your benefit I shall try now to repeat it again. You stated that the proclamations allegedly seen by you were in the nature of threats. I am referring to the proclamations which you have seen in Gorenzen and Stuttgart respectively. Now, I am asking you whether or not proclamations as you have seen them in the Southeast theater were mere threats or whether they were actually carried out; that is to say, people were executed at a ratio from anywhere 2 to 1 to 50 to 1. Do you understand that question?
A. Yes. At the beginning , after the collapse of the Jugoslav Army, posters of this sort containing a threat were put up and when the threat was not sufficient the threats were translated into action.
MR. RAPP: Thank you very much. That is all, Your Honors.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Dr. Sauter, do you have further questions?
DR. SAUTER: Dr. Sauter for the defendant Geitner. Witness, only one question following up the last question put to you by the prosecution: did you know General Bader and General Felber personally?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You also knew General von Geitner personally, did you?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you know the other members of the staff, of the commanding officer personally?
A. I did.
Q. Do you believe that a single reprisal measure would have been carried out if the civilian population or bands had not committed acts of sabotage or attacks?
A. If the civilian population had not ambushed and murdered German soldiers and committed acts of sabotage, it is my conviction that no reprisal measure would have been resorted to against the civilian population.
Q. And what, according to your knowledge of the conditions in Belgrade, was the sole and single purpose of this threat of reprisal measures.
A. As I said before, it was hoped that the people would be sufficiently shocked --namely, that the individual who had murdered a. German soldier or committed an act of sabotage would thereby act against his own people in a criminal way.
Q. Will you give me a. more precise answer, please? What was the purpose , as you see it, of the threats pertaining to reprisal measures? What was intended by the German occupation?
A. The purpose of the threads of the reprisal measures was through this method to prevent acts of sabotage.
Q. To prevent? I see. Thank you very much.
DR. SAUTER: I have no further questions.
MR. RAPP: Witness, what are you doing now? What is your present occupation?
A. I am an assistant of a manager with an American agency.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Are there further questions on the part of defense counsel? Are there questions on the part of the members of the Tribunal?
What did you say your present avocation is?
A. I am the deputy manager of an American hospital. I am in an ice cream bar in a hospital.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You maybe excused.
DR. SAUTER: May it please the Tribunal, if the Court agrees, I would call my next witness who is Dr. Henrich Bub. The witness is present.
DR. HEINRICH BUB, a witness, took the stand and testified as follow
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Will the witness please raise his right hand and repeat after me the words of the oath: "I swear by God the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing." (Witness repeated the oath) Very well; you may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, you needn't wear your earphones now. You can understand me as it is.
A. Yes.
Q. You know that after each question you should make a little pause so that the interpreters can follow. Please remember that.
Witness, what is your full name?
A. Dr. Heinrich Bub.
Q. Perhaps you would spell the last word.
A. B-U-B (spelling)
Q. When were you born?
A. On the 22nd of December 1907.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I am a dentist.
Q. And where do you live?
A. In Kirchenlamitz.
Q. Where is that?
A. In Upper Franconia.
Q. Witness, were you a member of the Party?
A. I was.
Q. Just a moment,please. Don't shout.
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Otherwise the microphone carries your voice too loudly and the ears of the audience will be affected
A. I'm sorry.
Q. You can speak quite softly, you know.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Follow the example of Dr. Sauter.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q. Witness, when you answer the next questions you canagain talk softly.
Were you with the Party?
A. Yes.
Q. Since when?
A. Since the first of May 1933.
Q. Do you mean a few months after the seizure of power?
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you join the Party? As a dentist?
A. Well, that might well have been a reason because at the time in the papers there were proclamations, if I can recall it, for dentists to join the Party.
Q. Were you also in the SS?
A. No.
Q. Never?
A. No.
Q. The SA?
A. Yes, I was a medical officer with the SA, and I examined the teeth of the local SA men.
Q. In other words your duties with the SA were simply those of a dentist, nothing else?
A. No.
Q. Did you hold any office in the Party?
A. I did not.
Q. Now, Dr. Bub, how was it that you met General von Geitner?
A. In December, 1941 I had been transferred to the office in Belgrade.
Q. Were you an active officer before?
A. No, I was not an active officer.
Q. You were not an active officer, but you were a reserve officer?
A. I was a reserve officer.
Q. Since when?
A. In March, 1940 I was promoted lieutenant in the reserve.
Q. Where you serve at first as an officer?
A. You mean after I was promoted to lieutenant?
With my unit, at the time the 115th Artillery Regiment. We were in Westphalia when I was promoted, and then I took part in the French campaign, and after that the campaign in Yugoslavia.
Q. When was it that you went to Serbia, to Yugoslavia?
A. At first I took part in the campaign in Yugoslavia.
Q. Please don't forget the pause, between question and answer.
Then after the campaign, for a few months, I was with the reserve units aNd quite independently from any participation in the campaign, I was in December , 1941, transferred to the office where later on I met General von Geitner. The office was then still called Military Commander Serbia.
Q. So there you were since December, roughly Christmas , 1941, were you?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. December 1941? I see.
And how long did you stay there?
A. I remained with the agency, which later on was renamed Commanding General and Commander in Chief Serbia , until about the 25th of August 1943.
Q. That was the same office, in other words, in which Herr von Geitner functioned as Chief of the General Staff?
A. Yes, it was the same office.
Q. Please don't forget the full stop, Dr. Bub.
A. Yes, it was the same office in which General von Geitner was then a Colonel on the General Staff, and to which he was transferred in June or July, 1942, as Chief of Staff.
Q. What department did you have , or what were the tasks you had down there? Were you there as an medical officer or in another capacity?
A. No, I was not. I was the fourth aide-de-camp there, and I was with the Department la, or Id as it was called also. I could perhaps explain here that with the Commanding General Serbia Departments Ia. and Id were quite more closely linked than was the case usually. Usually it was the case that the Ia had his aide-de-camp, who was called the first aide-de-camp. And Id ("D" for David ) , who was also called fourth officer on the General Staff, also had his aide-de-camp, who, therefore, was called fourth aide-de-camp. But in the case of the Commanding General Serbia, the fact was that the officer who held the position of the fourth General Staff officer, at that period of time at least, was not an officer who had been trained for General Staff work, and perhaps for that or other reasons he was regarded more as another aide-de-camp of the first General Staff Officer.
Q. Witness, in other words, you were an assistant to the Ia?
A. Yes, I was an assistant to Ia.
Q. Well, now can you tell the Court briefly, in one sentence, what the la had to do?
A. Ia, to put it briefly, as the General Staff Office, had tactical duties.
Q. And you were the assistant?
A. I was one of his assistants.
Q. And what were your duties?
A. My duties amounted to keeping the index and also was concerned with formations and military arrangements. Also, sometimes I would keep the War Diary, and I was also entrusted on occasions with compiling the material for the Daily Reports.
Q. Did you, in that capacity and by virtue of that work, see and talk much or little with Herr von Geitner?
A. It was those duties which brought me into contact almost regularly with Herr von Geitner. Besides, I had a number of other duties, of course, which brought me into contact less with Herr von Geitner or not at all. I deliberately only mentioned those tasks which would bring me into contact with Herr von Geitner because I assume that the other things would not be of interest here.
Q. Did you and Herr von Geitner talk only about official service matters, or did you meet outside office hours, so to speak? For instance , at dinners or anything like that?
A. On a number of occasions I would dine with Herr von Geitner. It was customary for the Commanding General to cultivate social relations with officers with whom he would eat in a special mess for reasons of accommodation only, because it was quite impossible for all officers to eat in one and the same mess, and so it was usual that other officers too would do so on special occasions. For instance on their birthdays they would eat in the mess of the Commanding General.
Q. Did Herr von Geitner talk with you about official service matters - political affairs and things like that - quite openly I mean? or was he somewhat reserved, as far as you were concerned?
A. Herr von Geitner, as far as official matters were concerned, particularly political matters, would talk to his younger officers in the Department in a well-nigh sensationally open manner, surprisingly open, from the point of view of the difference in rank , I mean. He did this to an extent which I have never found elsewhere.
Q. Do you believe, therefore, that you, on the basis of your work at that time, could recommend Herr von Geitner's personality and attitude?
A. I think I can, yes.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Dr. Sauter, we'll conclude the session for today and resume at nine-thirty tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal recessed at 1630 --to Resume session at 0930 22 October 1947)
Official Transcript of Military Tribunal V, Case VII in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 22 October 1947, 0930 hours, Judge Wennerstrum, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judge of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if all the defendants are present in the Courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom except Rendulic who has been excused and von Weichs, who has been excused because of illness and who is still in the hospital.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with your examination Dr. Sauter.
HEINRICH BUB - Continued DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Dr. Bub, you told us yesterday that from 1941 to 1943 you were with the office of the Commander in Chief Serbia as ADC and that it was there that you met Herr von Geitner. Now, could you tell us what your impression was of Von Geitner's personality and the way he managed his office?
A General von Geitner impressed me as a noble minded and honest man. As a soldier, his whole work was based on the strongest sense of responsibility and duty. In my opinion he devised all measures where might would rule over right. In no sense of the word was he as a soldier inclined to bully nor was he inclined to be subservent to those above and to kick the people below. To the people above him he showed strength, whereas to the people under him he attempted to be considerate and diplomatic. Particularly as far as the Serbian people was concerned it was his endeavor to avoid all hardship and he went so far on this that his efforts and his sense of duty, which he had would take the background on occasions and he took the responsibility to circumvent orders from superior agencies.
Q Witness, as for his attitude toward the Serbian people; did you consider from your conversation with Herr von Geitner and from your other observations that his attitude toward the Serbian people was that policy of force should be employed?
A No, he did not want to do that at all. On the contrary I had the opportunity to discuss in great detail with Herr von Geitner the Serbian people and I learned exactly what he thought and felt toward the Serbian people. I always had the opportunity to make these observations when he was on official trips and when I accompanied him on several occasions, including a trip which lasted several days to Sofia, the Bulgarian capital where for a few days we traveled entirely alone in a compartment and when without hesitation we could discuss those things quite frankly.
Q Witness, you went to the office in Belgrade in December of 1941?
A Yes.
Q When did Herr von Geitner go there as you remember it?
A Herr von Geitner arrived in July or Juno, I am not sure which month, but it was in 1942.
Q In other words, you had been there for six months before Herr von Geitner arrived) is that correct?
A Yes, I had been there for about six months before Herr von Geitner arrived.
Q You know that in Belgrade a largo number of reprisals had boon ordered) you know that don't you?
A Well, the expression "a large number of reprisals" you mean a lot of reprisal measures?
Q Yes.