A Field Marshal List was recognized by all as a great Army leader and esteemed as such, and we knew that his decisions were not rashly taken, that he considered them for a long time and that he had a great sense of responsibility; especially I remember that his sense of justice and fairness was proverbial, and I knew from discussions with court officers that he dealt searchingly with the verdicts of the Wehrmacht courts and asked how they had been arrived at.
Q How did he deal with his subordinates?
A The Field Marshal was a very kind superior and was greatly esteemed and was very popular with his subordinates. He looked after them as much as possible.
Q What was his attitude toward the populations of the occupied territories as far as you could ascertain it?
A I can only state that from discussions and talks which I overheard, where he referred again and again to the population and from which I can gather that he was interested in them and cared for them.
Q What was Field Marshal List's attitude to the church?
AAs far as I remember it was a positive attitude.
Q Did he receive the Armed Forces chaplains for official discussions?
A Yes, for official and also for unofficial meetings.
Q Did you ascertain anything about Field Marshal List's attitude towards the Party?
A The Field Marshal talked little or not at all about Party matters.
Q And what was the impression one could gain from such attitudes regarding his opinion of the Party?
A The least one could say is that he was sceptical towards the Party.
Q I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination on behalf of the defense counsel? Any cross-examination, Mr. Fenstermacher:
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Yes, if Your Honor pleases.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Mr. Kraeutler, when did you join the Army?
A In November, 1940.
Q You were rather old to be drafted for the Army at that time were you not?
A I was an officer, and I was drafted as such.
Q How old were you at that time?
A I'm 53 today; and that was in 1939. I was 45 years old.
Q What was your rank when you first joined the Army?
A I was a captain.
Q And you became a major, I believe not until 1944?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Were you ever promoted after that?
A I beg your pardon?
No, Not after I had become major.
Q You were in the Southeast, I believe you said from early 1941 until how long?
A I remained in the Southeast until September, 1944.
Q Were you ever in Russia at all during your career in the Army?
A No, never.
Q Well, your duties as Ordnance Officer were, as I understand them, was to handle the "top secret" matters which came down from Berlin to the Southeast Staff, and which you passed on from the Southeast Staff to subordinate units, as well as the various "top secret" reports which came up from below. Is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Did you make a habit of reading everything which passed through your hands?
A I couldn't read everything because I didn't have the time to do that, but I did read a lot of things.
Q Do you suppose there were some orders and reports which escaped your attention?
A That is hardly possible, but it could be.
Q Well, I don't quite understand. You say that you could not possibly read everything that went through your hands, so I take it that some things must have escaped your attention. Perhaps a good deal of the material yon didn't bother to read.
A Yes, there was such material.
Q How many men did you have subordinate to you?
A In the Operational Department I had approximately 35 to 40 people under me.
Q Were they officers or enlisted men?
A No, they were non-commissioned officers and enlisted men.
Q They were, for the most part, merely clerical assistants, were they not?
A These people? Yes, that's correct.
Q And to whom were you subordinate?
A I personally was subordinate to the I-a.
Q How many other men were subordinate to the I-a besides yourself?
A The persons I named before. There were 35 to 40 besides the officers.
Q How many officers besides yourself were subordinate to the I-a?
A 6 or 7 officers.
Q How many times did you talk to the Chief of Staff, General Foertsch, per day?
A I beg your pardon?
Q How many times a day did you speak to the Chief of Staff, General Foertsch?
A I don't think I talked to him daily. There were days when I talked to him two or three times, and then there were other days when I didn't talk to him at all because I had nothing to do in his office.
Q Could you go to see Foertsch at any time, or did you always have to clear through I-a?
A I could go directly to the Chief of Staff, General Foertsch.
Q How many times per day did you speak to Field Marshal List?
A That did not occur daily, but I might say that about two or three times per week.
Q Did all of you staff people eat at the same mess with Field Marshal List and General Foertsch?
A The people in the Operational Department, the officers in the Operational Department, ate there, yes.
Q Did you sit at the same table with Field Marshal List and General Foertsch?
A Yes, it was the same table. That was the table where we had our meals.
Q About how many persons were there at the table when you took your meals?
A Twelve, 14, or 15 people.
Q Were you one of the higher ranking persons there or were you one of the lower ranking persons?
A In any case I ranked lower than the General Staff officers.
Q You were only a captain at that time. You were almost one of the lowest, were you not?
A Yes, indeed. That's correct.
Q I believe you said, Mr. Kraeutler, that Germany occupied Greece and then later gave the Italinas permission to occupy Greece, at least certain portions of Greece. Is that what you said?
A Yes. I said that too, that part of Greece was ceded to the Italians.
Q And the Germans retained the area around Salonika, the Island of Crete, and some other islands?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And certain portions of the city of Athens and especially the port of Athens.
Is that correct?
A I am not clearly informed about the conditions in Athens, whether parts of Athens were occupied by the Germans, but I do know that about Salonika and about the islands around Crete.
Q There was a German Commander of Southern Greece, was there not?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Do you know what his jurisdiction was?
A He had the troops in Southern Greece under his command.
Q Is that the area around Athens? Is that what you mean by Southern Greece?
A No, Southern Greece is, in my opinion, the Pelloponesus, south of the highway from Corinth.
Q Do you know who the commander of Southern Greece was in early 1941?
A I cannot remember that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Do you think it was General Felmy? Does that name strike a note in your mind?
A I know the name.
Q Mr. Kraeutler, you were in the Southeast from 1941 until late 1944. Did you ever hear anything about concentration camps in the Southeast area?
A Please, there is an error. I was not in Greece till 1944. I was in Greece only till August, 1943, and at that time I left Salonika and came to Army Group F, and later on to Sofia.
Q I beg your pardon, I mean you were in the Southeast Command from 1941 until 1944.
A Yes.
Q And while you were at the headquarters of, first, 12th Army and, then, Army Group E, and finally Army Group F, did concentration camps in that area ever come to your attention?
A I heard nothing about that.
Q Did you ever hear anything about the execution of Jews? Were they mentioned in the reports. Or any of the orders which passed through your hands?
A That is not known to me either, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Did you ever hear anything about the execution of hostages?
A These orders I could not get because they were reports which came to the Ia directly. There were no super top secret matters.
Q Did none of the material which passed through your hands mention hostages?
A I know nothing of it.
Q Did any of the material which passed through your hands mention reprisal executions or reprisal burning of villages?
A I do not know that, either.
Q If they had, you would have remembered them, would you not?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Mr. Kraeutler, you have been shown the Keitel directive of 16 September 1941, which mentions a hostage ratio of from 50 to 100 to one in retaliation for every German soldier killed. Do you recall perhaps an earlier -
A I have just before seen that order.
Q Yes. Now perhaps you remember an order about eleven days earlier than that particular order, an order issued by Field Marshal List on the 5th of September, 1941, in which Field Marshal List talks about the execution of hostages and the burning of the villages. Do you recall that order perhaps?
A I do not remember that order.
Q Would you look at Exhibit 43 in Document Book II at page 27 of the English and page 23 of the German -- I beg your pardon, that is at page 23 of the English and page 21 of the German, and it is Exhibit 42 rather than Exhibit 43.
Would you turn, Mr. Kraeutler, to page 21 in the book which you have?
A Yes, I have page 21 here.
Q And now will you turn to page 22 of your book to subparagraph F of paragraph II of that order? That order states -
A Where is it, please? Can you tell me again.
Q That is on page 22 of the book which you have, subparagraph F.
That order states "Ruthless and immediate measures against the insurgents, against their accomplices and their families, hangings, burning down of villages involved, seizure of more hostages, deportation of relatives etc. into concentration camps." Did this order pass through your hands by any chance?
A It could not have gone through my hands, because it was top secret and not a super top secret matter, as I can see on the previous page. The code number is Ia, 1837/41 and we didn't have such high numbers in the super top secret matters.
Q Well then, you only saw top secret matters and not-
A Please?
Q You only came across top secret matters rather than just secret matters?
A No, only super top secret matters.
Q Did you get to see the important orders which were sent out by the various commanders of, first, the 12th Army, then Army Group E and finally Army Group F in the course of your duties?
A Inasmuch as they were super top secret.
Q Would orders with respect to hostage ratios be classified ordinarily as super top secret matters if they were orders sent down by the Commander-in-Chief of the Southeast Command to the subordinate units?
A No longer. At the moment when an order was carried out, the clause super top secret was no longer used but instead it went as top secret.
Q Can you remember now, Mr. Kraeutler, at what times you went on leave in 1941?
A Yes, I remember that.
Q I wonder, could you tell me the dates on which you went on leave?
A I cannot name them exactly but I know that at the beginning of August, I returned from my leave and since I had 21 days of leave, I must have left about the 15th of July.
Q Did you ever have any leave in June of 1941?
A No.
Q Do you know, Mr. Kraeutler, whether there is anything said in the material which passed through your hands regarding political commissars among the communist partisan units in the Southeast?
A It is not known to me.
Q Did you got to know anything about the organization of the partisans in the course of your official duties?
A No, I never gained any knowledge concerning that.
Q I have just been given a note that the interpreter may be perhaps confusing "chefsache", affairs of the Chief of Staff, with "geheime commando-sache" which means top secret. You are not confusing them?
THE INTERPRETER: We are trying not to confuse them.
We have designated "chefsache" as super top secret -- that is the highest classification we have, isn't it? And top secret command matter is "geheime commando-sache."
Q You stated, Mr. Kraeutler, that you have never been in Russia?
A Yes, I was never there.
Q How did you know the code name Barbarossa that refers to the Russian campaign?
A I had to know that because the code name Barbarossa was generally known just as much as the name "Sea Lion" in the campaign against France.
Q Did you have to know the code name Barbarossa in order to fulfil your duties in the Southeast?
A No, I didn't have to know it for my duties but I did know it.
Q Perhaps you can tell me some of the other code names for several of the other campaigns. Do you know the code name for the Austrian invasion in 1938?
A I don't know it because I didn't take part there. I wasn't present.
Q Do you know the code name for the invasion of Poland?
A No, at that time I wasn't in the staff
Q Do you know any other code name besides Barbarossa?
A Yes, the code name in Greece in the campaign against Greece I think at that time was Maritza.
Q Could that have been Marita?
A Yes, Marita -- that is right.
Q Did you ever hear the code name Fall Gruen?
A No, what would that have applied to? I don't know.
Q That, I believe, was the code name for the invasion of Czechoslovakia but you, I believe, know only Barbarossa and Marita.
A I know Merkur -- that was Crete.
Q Now, Mr. Kraeutler, I would like you to look again at the commissar order which Dr. Laternser referred to on your direct examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Fenstermacher, before we commence on this examination, I think it is time we take the recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Court is recessed 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with the cross-examination.
Q. Mr. Kraeutler, I would like to show you now, Exhibit 14, which is in Document Book 1, page 49 of the English and page 34 of the German. If you will look on that page you will note an order from the Commander in Chief of the Army, at that time Field Marshal Von Brauchitsch, dated 8 June 1941. You will note its subject is "Treatment of Political Commisars."
THE PRESIDENT: What's the page number again?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Page 49, Your Honor.
Q. (continued) This, Mr. Kraeutler, is the Commissar order, and you will note if you turn to page 35 of that document Book, page 51 of the English, - "Directives for Treatment of Political Commissars." Now, if you will turn back to the first page, page 34 of the German Book page 49 of the English, you will note there is a rubber stamp on the original document which states: "For General Officers only." And now if you will turn to page 35 of your book, page 50 of the English Document Book you will note a communication from the Chief of the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces, who at that time was Field Marshal Keitel. This particular communication is signed by General Warlimont, and again you will note "Top Secret, for General Officers only," and then the rubber stamp, "For General Officers only." Now, will you turn to the last paragraph cf the communication from Warlimont, "You are requested to limit the distribution to Commanders in Chief of Armies or their commands respectively, and to inform the junior commanders by word of mouth." If you are unfamiliar with this Commissar order, Mr. Kraeutler, isn't it due to the fact that the order was given to General Officers only, and in fact to Commanders in Chief of Armies, or their commands. It would not have come to your attention in any event. Do you believe that is the possibility as to why you are not familiar with this order?
A. This order according to the distribution list, has not been sent to the AOK 12.
Q. But Mr. Kraeutler, the distribution of this order is limited expressly, according to General Warlimont's communication, to Commanders in Chief of Armies or their commands, and their junior commanders who I take it, means Corps Commanders and Division Commanders can only receive knowledge of the order by word of mouth. A mere captain, as you were at that time, wouldn't get any information with regard to a matter that was limited expressly to Commanders in Chief of Armies?
A. That I don't believe, because the super top secret matter would have been entered in my book, but I see from the distribution list here that no copy was destined for our area. OAK 12 and Armed Forces Commander Southeast do not appeal anywhere on this document.
Q. The 2nd Army which was commanded by Field Marshal Weichs, got a copy. Didn't the 2nd Army participate in the invasion of Yugoslavia?
A. That I don't know, because I wasn't there.
Q. Weren't you on the staff of the OKW when the invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece took place?
A. Yes, I was on the staff of AOK 12, not a member of the AOK 12.
Q. Didn't the second Army participate in the invasion of Greece and Yugoslavia in April 1941.
A. But the 2nd Army was not subordinate to us.
Q. The Second Army received a copy of the Commissar order, how do you explain that.
A. That I don't know.
Q. You believe then, that even though this order was limited to Commanders in Chiefs of Armies, you would have heard of it.
A. I would have gained knowledge of it.
Q. In any event you never heard of Political Commisars being among the partisans during the time you were in the Southeast?
A. No, I didn't know that.
Q. Now, Mr. Kraeutler, I asked you earlier whether in the course of your official duties looking at top secret reports and orders, whether you got to know anything about concentration camp, Jews, the execution hostages. But now I'd like to make my question a little bit broader and ask you whether as a soldier in the Southeast, talking with other soldiers talking with Fortsch and Field Marshal List on occasion you ever got to know anything about concentration camps, Jews, hostages, the reprisal burning of villages?
A. I never heard anything and I cannot recall anything.
Q. You have said I think that Field Marshal List had a great sense of responsibility, that he always thought things through quite carefully and never did anything rashly?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you get the impression that Field Marshal List was a strong man and that he did not hesitate to disagree with the OKW and even Hitler?
A. That I do believe.
Q. Do you believe that if Field Marshal List ever disagreed with an order of OKW or of Hitler, that he would have carried out that order?
A. Yes.
Q. You believe he would have refused to carry out an order of the OKW or even of Hitler, if he didn't approve of that order?
A. I am afraid I haven't quite understood this.
Q. I asked you whether you considered Field Marshal List a strong enough personality to have refused to carry out an order of the OKW or even of Hitler, If he disagreed with that order?
A. That I cannot judge at all. My information is not great enough to talk about this.
Q. You are quite sure that Field Marshal List never hesitated to talk back to the OKW or Hitler?
A. Yes.
Q. Mr. Kraeutler, do you feel a sense of loyalty for your old Field Marshal, you who as a captain served in a subordinate capacity on his staff?
A. I am afraid I can hardly understand anything. There must be some technical difficulty. It is very weak. (indicating earphones.)
(short intermission)
Yes, I can understand now.
Q. I asked you, Mr. Kraeutler, whether you who served as a captain on the staff of Field Marshal List in 1941 feel now a sense of loyalty and allegiance to the old Field Marshal?
A. Yes, I do.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: No further questions, Your Honor.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
DR. LATERNSER: I just want to clear one point, Your Honor.
Q. Dr. Kraeutler, You were questioned about the Commissar Order, Exhibit 14, on page 35 of the German Document Book; you were asked whether super top secret matters were only accessible to generals, in spite of the formula?
A. Super top secret matters are first of all accessible to the Commander in Chief, to the highest commander and to the Chief of the General Staff, and from there the super top secret matter is transferred when necessary by the Chief of Staff to that Department at chief, who has to work on it and who has to sign for it.
Q. First of all I want to know that was the formula which was used in super top secret matters, was it called super top secret matter only through officers or super-top secret matter only for generals?
A. Super-top secret matter only through officers.
Q. Who guarded the files of super top secret matters?
A. I did.
Q. Were they any exceptions to that, are exceptions known to you of cases in which super top secret matters did not go through your hands?
A. That was not possible.
Q. In paragraph 2 on page 35 of the German book it says, and I quote:
THE INTERPRETER: Will you give me the English page of that?
DR. LATERNSER: 56.
Q. (continued) I quote again: "You are requested to limit the distribution to commanders in Chief of Armies or of Air Commands, respectively, and to inform the junior commanders by word of mouth. If it says here "Commander in Chief of the Armies" does that mean the Commander in Chief of the Army personally, or his office?
A. The office is meant by this.
Q. On page 37 of the German Book and page 53 of the English test, the distribution list was submitted to you, and in this context is was put to you that the AOK 2 had received the Commisar Order; do you know were at that time, that is June 1941, the NOK 2 was situated. In other words, was it at that time still in the Balkans?
A. I know, I know, I know. I can't tell you exactly where it was at that time.
Q. Do you remember now that I am telling you, that the AOK 2 was at that time actually in Munich?
A. Yes, I do remember.
Q. You remember that?
A. I do remember that.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Mr. Kraeutler, what makes you believe now that the 2nd Army was in Munich at the time we are talking about now in relation to the Commissar order?
A. That was the time when the Balkan campaign had already been concluded, I now remember that AOK 2 then at that time did go to Munich in order to remain at disposal for further reassignment.
Q. You had nothing to do with the 2nd Army, did you?
A. No nothing at all.
Q. At this time you were down in Greece with the 12th Army?
A. Yes.
Q. You never heard where the 2nd Army was being moved to did you?
A. I beg your pardon? From conversations we heard that the staff of AOK 2 was in Munich. I now remember that.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination by any of defense counsel?
There being no examination the witness may be excused.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, Now I would like to call two witnesses, briefly regarding the personality of the defendant Field Marshal List. For this purpose I now call a witness, the General von Greiffenberg.
THE PRESIDENT: The messenger will present the witness.
HANS von GREIFFENBERG a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT: The witness will raise his right hand and be sworn.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the part truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Will you kindly give your name to the Court?
A. My name is Hans von Greiffenberg.
Q. Will you kindly spell your surname?
A. G-r-e-i-f-f-e-n-b-e-r-g.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. On the 12th October 1893 in Radensfelder in Pommerania.
Q. What is you occupation?
A. I am a professional officer.
Q. And what was your last rank?
A. My last service rank was General of the Infantry.
Q. Where do you reside at this time?
A. At this time I am residing in the camp of the Historical Section at Neustadt.
Q. That is to day you are still a prisoner of war?
A. I am not longer a prisoner of war. I am interned at this time.
Q. And who has interned you, which office has interned you?
A. Well, I believe by order of the Military Government.
Q. When did you have your first official contact with Field Marshal List?
A. My first official contact with Field Marshal list took place in the autumn of 1926.
Q. At that time what rank did Field Marshal List have?
A. The Field Marshal was at that time Chief of a department in the War Ministry.
Q. In what capacity did you come to this department?
A. I got in contact with the Department as a captain, and a case worker.
Q. What rank did Field Marshal List have at that time?
A. Field Marshal List was a colonel at that time.
Q. What was his attitude at this time toward the Weimar Republic?
A. As far as I can see it he reserved a loyal attitude to the Weimar Republic. I cannot say more on that subject because I do not know anything.
Q. Did Field Marshal List have at that time any political views or leanings?
A. No, he did not have any leanings or views.
Q. What was his task at that time?
A. As Chief of the Training Department he was responsible for the training of the Army.
Q. Did he in this position have anything to do with the training of the Army.
A. Oh, yes, the training of officers also partly belonged to the sphere of activity of this Department, partly it belong to the sphere of another department.
Q Do you know which points seemed most important to Field Marshal List in the training of officers?
A His main point of concern was the education of the officers because it was then a very young officers' corps.
Q And on what did he put great stress in the training of officers?
A In mastering the technique of weapons and in the welfare of the troops. Those were his chief points.
Q And as regards personal matters, that is, I mean the tasks he set to the officers?
A Well, the demands he made on the officers were very high.
Q How long did you remain with this training department?
A I remained with the training department until 1930, that is, the Autumn of 1930.
Q What official position did you have then?
AAfter that I became company commander.
Q What did you do then?
AAt the end of my period as company commander, I became exchange officer in the United States, from 1932-1933.
Q What did you do there; what was your training there and how long did you stay there?
A I stayed in the United States for over one year, and I was a pupil at the General Staff Academy of the United States.
Q When did you return from America?
A I returned at the end of 1933.
Q What was your next official contact with Field Marshal List?
AAs I-A I was transferred to Dresden to the staff of Field Marshal List.
Q What was Field Marshal List at that time?
AAt that time Field Marshal List was Commanding General of the 4th Corps in Dresden.
Q And how long did you remain in your position as I-A?
A For three and a half years.