A. At the beginning of August I returned from my leave and I heard repeatedly that band activities had considerably increased. Towards the end of August and during September it was very strong indeed so that the situation could be considered critical and threatening at that time.
Q,. What did Field Marshal List order at that time?
A. As far as I remember, Field Marshal List repeatedly asked for reinforcements.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q. When for the first time did he ask for additional troops?
A. That, too, was before I went on leave, at the end of June, beginning of July.
Q. How long did you remain on leave?
A. Approximately three weeks.
Q. And when did you come back?
A. That must have been around the middle of August or the first half of August, around about the 10th of August approximately.
Q. In answer to the request were troops commanded to Serbia?
A. I don't know anything about that.
Q. What means did Field Marshal List take after that.
A. I remember that Field Marshal List then, towards the end of August, addressed a special letter a memorandum to the OKW.
Q. What was contained in this memorandum? What was expressed there?
A. I can't say that exactly but I do remember that Field Marshal List demanded troops in order to be able to stop the insurgent movement in the Serbian area.
Q. Did this memorandum pass through your hands?
A. Yes, that was a super top secret matter.
Q. Was there an answer by the OKW to this memorandum?
A. I do not know anything about that.
Q. What commission did then Field Marshal List give to his Chief of Staff?
A. Field Marshal List instructed -
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, please, I object to that question. I don't think a communication between a commander and a chief of staff is of necessity a top secret matter.
If Dr. Laternser can qualify him on this point, I have no objection to his answer.
THE PRESIDENT: If the witness knows he may answer.
Q. You can answer the question. What happened then?
A. When the Chief of Staff, the then Colonel Foertsch, went on leave he took a copy of the memorandum with him in order to make personal representation to the OKW during his leave on the basis of this memorandum.
Q. How do you know, witness, that the then Colonel Foertsch took a copy of the memorandum along with him?
A. I gave it to him.
Q. What did you hear later about the negotiations of Colonel Foertsch with the OKW and in what manner were you informed about these things?
A. Later I heard from the I-a......
Q. Who was the I-a at that time?
A. Colonel Kuebler. I heard from him that the Chief of Staff had been to the OKW but had not achieved any success and that the OKW was of a different opinion than the Field Marshal. I heard of that from the I-a, Colonel Kuebler.
Q. What, according to Colonel Kuebler's statement, was the opinion expressed by the OKW?
A. I remember that Colonel Kuebler told me that the Chief of Staff was to advise his commander that the OKW would hear the responsibility for all measures which would aid in the clarifying of the situation in Serbia.
Q. How was that accepted at that time in the staff, this information?
A. In the staff it was said that there would be no reinforcements, that we would have to get along with the occupational troops at out disposal and that we would have to take most stringent measures for the combatting of the bands.
Q. What was Field Marshal List's attitude to this situation into which he had been put?
A. Field Marshal List was not delighted with the situation and I seem to remember that he was rather depressed about it and made remarks to that effect.
Q. When and at what occasion?
A. That was at discussions after supper when we were together in a small circle.
Q. What orders of the OKW came in at that time?
A. I remember one order in September where the OKW demanded especially stringent measures and at retaliation measure demanded shootings in a certain ratio.
Q. Witness, I have an order here of the OKW of the 16th of September 1941 which I will submit to you and I ask you to look at this order. This is Exhibit 53.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, is that Hitler's hundred-to-one order that you are referring to? Will there be reference to other exhibits that we should have here?
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, I shall refer to Exhibit 13 and also to the order of the 23rd of July 1941. Altogether it will be Exhibit 13 and Exhibit 25. Both these exhibits are in Document Book I.
A. That is the order which I was talking about. Those are the ratio figures.
Q. This order of the 16th of September.
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. How did that order come to the headquarters of the 12th Army?
A. I suppose that the order was delivered by courier.
Q. How many copies of this order did you receive?
A. According to the distribution list which I see here, it came in several copies to the headquarters of the 12th Army.
Q. What does it mean if an order came in in several copies?
A. If an order arrived in several copies, these additional copies were sent as they were to the offices where they belonged, maybe with a brief accompanying letter.
Q. That meant then that a larger number of copies of the order concerned had already been made out for the subordinate offices.
A. Yes, we were nothing else but an intermediary between the OKW and those offices for which the copies were intended.
Q Do you know whether the headquarters of the XIIth Army, at that time, sent their own opinion together with that order?
A I don't remember anything of that kind.
Q Do you know whether before passing on the order contact was taken up with the OKW by telephone?
A I don't know.
Q I now submit to you the so-called Commissar Order. This is Exhibit 13--one three. I would like to ask you to have a look at this order.
A I don't know this order, Dr. Laternser.
Q What order is this? That is to what extent was it to be kept secret?
A It says "top secret - only by officers."
Q Do you remember that at that time you received that order?
A No.
Q When did you, for the first time, gain knowledge of this order?
A I see it here for the first time. It couldn't have reached the Balkans because there is another code word in it.
Q Can you explain that?
A I beg your pardon?
Q Could you explain it?
A I see the code word "Barbarossa" in here.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I object to that question. The man has testified that he has seen the order for the first time, and I think the matter should rest there. I don't think he should be asked any other questions about it.
DR. LATERNSER: But I believe the Witness, on the basis of his special knowledge on super top secret matters has touched upon a point here which has not yet been clarified.
THE PRESIDENT: The Witness may answer as to such facts of which he has knowledge, limit it as to that.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q What does this code word "Barbarossa" mean?
A The code word is connected with the Russian campaign, and then in the annex of the order it says "for the military judicial competency Barbarossa", therefore it cannot concern the Balkans. I see this order here for the very first time.
Q I'll now have Exhibit 25 submitted to you--two five. And I will ask you to have a look at this order.
A This order is a "super top secret matter." This order again, as I can see just now, is an order for Russia, and the distribution does not mention our headquarters. Although the order is dated the 23rd of July, it must have reached the Headquarters of the XIIth Army at a time when I was not there, and I cannot remember it. But since I am quite familiar with "super top secret matters," I can conclude that order has nothing to do with us.
Q From what time to what time were you on leave?
A I was on leave until the beginning of August for three weeks. I don't know the exact date.
Q When you returned from your leave did you again take over the administration of "super top secret matters?"
A Yes, I took it over again.
Q At that occasion or later or earlier, during your time in the Balkans, did you gain knowledge of this order?
A No, never. I cannot remember it at all, and I'm quite certain that it never came into my hands because such decisive orders I would most certainly remember.
Q When, Witness, was General Boehme appointed Plenipotentiary Commanding General in Serbia?
A I believe in September, 1941.
Q Do you know for what reasons Field Marshal List chose General Boehme for this position?
A I only know it from talks which I had with the I-a or rather which I overheard in the casino.
General Boehme was Commanding General-I believe of the XVIIIth Army Corps--and his divisions were no longer under his command so that he became available for other tasks. Besides I seem to remember that the Field Marshal, at that time, chose General Boehme for the reasons...
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me. I think the record will show that the Witness List gave his reasons concerning this matter and the reasons for the appointment of General Boehme. And we would just further encumber the record here if we had this Witness give his reasons and his interpretations as to why he was appointed, when General List expressed them himself. It seems to me we can avoid any statements along this line inasmuch as we have this other testimony.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, Your Honor.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Do you know whether and when State Councillor Dr. Thurner came for a visit to see Field Marshal List?
A I can remember State Councillor Thurner. That must have been immediately before this time, that is, before the time when General Boehme took over his new position.
Q Did Field Marshal List, after the visit of State Councillor Thurner, make any remarks about what had been discussed?
A He did not make any remarks about what was said at least not to me. I was too subordinate an officer to be told what had been discussed.
Q Did Field Marshal List make any remarks to the effect whether he liked State Councillor Thurner's being in Serbia?
A Yes, indeed.
Q And to what effect did he make remarks?
A Field Marshal List did not like Thurner's being in our area.
Q And why not? Did he talk about that?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I think Dr. Laternser should qualify the Witness. In place of all these various statements and comments by Field Marshal List with regard to Thurner. It doesn't appear that he ever heard them.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the Witness should be questioned as to whether or not he ever heard statements of the Defendant List, rather than just give general statements. The objection will be sustained to that extent.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Were you present when Field Marshal List made remarks concerning State Councillor Thurner?
A Yes, I was present.
Q To what effect did he make remarks?
A State Councillor Thurner was a High Ss functionary. I believe he was an Obergruppenfuehrer, and as such he had strong ties with others, especially with other political authorities and the Field Marshal did not like that.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I think the Witness should be cautioned to answer the question precisely and briefly, without going into all of the background of State Councillor Thurner.
THE PRESIDENT: The Witness will testify as to what was said, that will cover the situation, rather than make any explanatory remarks.
DR. LATERNSER: I only asked him what was the tenor of Field Marshal List's remarks concerning State Councillor Thurner.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, what was the tenor of Field Marshal List's remarks concerning Thurner?
A Well, I can only out it the same way as I have but it, that is the Field Marshal, as a soldier, did not like people in his sphere of command who had strong ties to the party and other offices.
Q What was the importance of the Jewish question at the time when you were in Greece? What part did it play?
AAt that time the Jewish question in Greece i.e. at the time when I was there, played no part at all.
Q And how about Serbia?
A There too I know of nothing, at least I didn't hear anything, and I didn't see any documents with regard to that.
Q How long were you in the staff of Field Marshal List at the time when he was in command of the XIIth Army?
A Until Field Marshal List was taken sick. I remained there longer, but the Field Marshal wasn't there later.
Q Well, what was the opinion in the staff regarding the personality of Field Marshal List?
A Field Marshal List was recognized by all as a great Army leader and esteemed as such, and we knew that his decisions were not rashly taken, that he considered them for a long time and that he had a great sense of responsibility; especially I remember that his sense of justice and fairness was proverbial, and I knew from discussions with court officers that he dealt searchingly with the verdicts of the Wehrmacht courts and asked how they had been arrived at.
Q How did he deal with his subordinates?
A The Field Marshal was a very kind superior and was greatly esteemed and was very popular with his subordinates. He looked after them as much as possible.
Q What was his attitude toward the populations of the occupied territories as far as you could ascertain it?
A I can only state that from discussions and talks which I overheard, where he referred again and again to the population and from which I can gather that he was interested in them and cared for them.
Q What was Field Marshal List's attitude to the church?
AAs far as I remember it was a positive attitude.
Q Did he receive the Armed Forces chaplains for official discussions?
A Yes, for official and also for unofficial meetings.
Q Did you ascertain anything about Field Marshal List's attitude towards the Party?
A The Field Marshal talked little or not at all about Party matters.
Q And what was the impression one could gain from such attitudes regarding his opinion of the Party?
A The least one could say is that he was sceptical towards the Party.
Q I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination on behalf of the defense counsel? Any cross-examination, Mr. Fenstermacher:
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Yes, if Your Honor pleases.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Mr. Kraeutler, when did you join the Army?
A In November, 1940.
Q You were rather old to be drafted for the Army at that time were you not?
A I was an officer, and I was drafted as such.
Q How old were you at that time?
A I'm 53 today; and that was in 1939. I was 45 years old.
Q What was your rank when you first joined the Army?
A I was a captain.
Q And you became a major, I believe not until 1944?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Were you ever promoted after that?
A I beg your pardon?
No, Not after I had become major.
Q You were in the Southeast, I believe you said from early 1941 until how long?
A I remained in the Southeast until September, 1944.
Q Were you ever in Russia at all during your career in the Army?
A No, never.
Q Well, your duties as Ordnance Officer were, as I understand them, was to handle the "top secret" matters which came down from Berlin to the Southeast Staff, and which you passed on from the Southeast Staff to subordinate units, as well as the various "top secret" reports which came up from below. Is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Did you make a habit of reading everything which passed through your hands?
A I couldn't read everything because I didn't have the time to do that, but I did read a lot of things.
Q Do you suppose there were some orders and reports which escaped your attention?
A That is hardly possible, but it could be.
Q Well, I don't quite understand. You say that you could not possibly read everything that went through your hands, so I take it that some things must have escaped your attention. Perhaps a good deal of the material yon didn't bother to read.
A Yes, there was such material.
Q How many men did you have subordinate to you?
A In the Operational Department I had approximately 35 to 40 people under me.
Q Were they officers or enlisted men?
A No, they were non-commissioned officers and enlisted men.
Q They were, for the most part, merely clerical assistants, were they not?
A These people? Yes, that's correct.
Q And to whom were you subordinate?
A I personally was subordinate to the I-a.
Q How many other men were subordinate to the I-a besides yourself?
A The persons I named before. There were 35 to 40 besides the officers.
Q How many officers besides yourself were subordinate to the I-a?
A 6 or 7 officers.
Q How many times did you talk to the Chief of Staff, General Foertsch, per day?
A I beg your pardon?
Q How many times a day did you speak to the Chief of Staff, General Foertsch?
A I don't think I talked to him daily. There were days when I talked to him two or three times, and then there were other days when I didn't talk to him at all because I had nothing to do in his office.
Q Could you go to see Foertsch at any time, or did you always have to clear through I-a?
A I could go directly to the Chief of Staff, General Foertsch.
Q How many times per day did you speak to Field Marshal List?
A That did not occur daily, but I might say that about two or three times per week.
Q Did all of you staff people eat at the same mess with Field Marshal List and General Foertsch?
A The people in the Operational Department, the officers in the Operational Department, ate there, yes.
Q Did you sit at the same table with Field Marshal List and General Foertsch?
A Yes, it was the same table. That was the table where we had our meals.
Q About how many persons were there at the table when you took your meals?
A Twelve, 14, or 15 people.
Q Were you one of the higher ranking persons there or were you one of the lower ranking persons?
A In any case I ranked lower than the General Staff officers.
Q You were only a captain at that time. You were almost one of the lowest, were you not?
A Yes, indeed. That's correct.
Q I believe you said, Mr. Kraeutler, that Germany occupied Greece and then later gave the Italinas permission to occupy Greece, at least certain portions of Greece. Is that what you said?
A Yes. I said that too, that part of Greece was ceded to the Italians.
Q And the Germans retained the area around Salonika, the Island of Crete, and some other islands?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And certain portions of the city of Athens and especially the port of Athens.
Is that correct?
A I am not clearly informed about the conditions in Athens, whether parts of Athens were occupied by the Germans, but I do know that about Salonika and about the islands around Crete.
Q There was a German Commander of Southern Greece, was there not?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Do you know what his jurisdiction was?
A He had the troops in Southern Greece under his command.
Q Is that the area around Athens? Is that what you mean by Southern Greece?
A No, Southern Greece is, in my opinion, the Pelloponesus, south of the highway from Corinth.
Q Do you know who the commander of Southern Greece was in early 1941?
A I cannot remember that, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Do you think it was General Felmy? Does that name strike a note in your mind?
A I know the name.
Q Mr. Kraeutler, you were in the Southeast from 1941 until late 1944. Did you ever hear anything about concentration camps in the Southeast area?
A Please, there is an error. I was not in Greece till 1944. I was in Greece only till August, 1943, and at that time I left Salonika and came to Army Group F, and later on to Sofia.
Q I beg your pardon, I mean you were in the Southeast Command from 1941 until 1944.
A Yes.
Q And while you were at the headquarters of, first, 12th Army and, then, Army Group E, and finally Army Group F, did concentration camps in that area ever come to your attention?
A I heard nothing about that.
Q Did you ever hear anything about the execution of Jews? Were they mentioned in the reports. Or any of the orders which passed through your hands?
A That is not known to me either, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Did you ever hear anything about the execution of hostages?
A These orders I could not get because they were reports which came to the Ia directly. There were no super top secret matters.
Q Did none of the material which passed through your hands mention hostages?
A I know nothing of it.
Q Did any of the material which passed through your hands mention reprisal executions or reprisal burning of villages?
A I do not know that, either.
Q If they had, you would have remembered them, would you not?
A Yes, indeed.
Q Mr. Kraeutler, you have been shown the Keitel directive of 16 September 1941, which mentions a hostage ratio of from 50 to 100 to one in retaliation for every German soldier killed. Do you recall perhaps an earlier -
A I have just before seen that order.
Q Yes. Now perhaps you remember an order about eleven days earlier than that particular order, an order issued by Field Marshal List on the 5th of September, 1941, in which Field Marshal List talks about the execution of hostages and the burning of the villages. Do you recall that order perhaps?
A I do not remember that order.
Q Would you look at Exhibit 43 in Document Book II at page 27 of the English and page 23 of the German -- I beg your pardon, that is at page 23 of the English and page 21 of the German, and it is Exhibit 42 rather than Exhibit 43.
Would you turn, Mr. Kraeutler, to page 21 in the book which you have?
A Yes, I have page 21 here.
Q And now will you turn to page 22 of your book to subparagraph F of paragraph II of that order? That order states -
A Where is it, please? Can you tell me again.
Q That is on page 22 of the book which you have, subparagraph F.
That order states "Ruthless and immediate measures against the insurgents, against their accomplices and their families, hangings, burning down of villages involved, seizure of more hostages, deportation of relatives etc. into concentration camps." Did this order pass through your hands by any chance?
A It could not have gone through my hands, because it was top secret and not a super top secret matter, as I can see on the previous page. The code number is Ia, 1837/41 and we didn't have such high numbers in the super top secret matters.
Q Well then, you only saw top secret matters and not-
A Please?
Q You only came across top secret matters rather than just secret matters?
A No, only super top secret matters.
Q Did you get to see the important orders which were sent out by the various commanders of, first, the 12th Army, then Army Group E and finally Army Group F in the course of your duties?
A Inasmuch as they were super top secret.
Q Would orders with respect to hostage ratios be classified ordinarily as super top secret matters if they were orders sent down by the Commander-in-Chief of the Southeast Command to the subordinate units?
A No longer. At the moment when an order was carried out, the clause super top secret was no longer used but instead it went as top secret.
Q Can you remember now, Mr. Kraeutler, at what times you went on leave in 1941?
A Yes, I remember that.
Q I wonder, could you tell me the dates on which you went on leave?
A I cannot name them exactly but I know that at the beginning of August, I returned from my leave and since I had 21 days of leave, I must have left about the 15th of July.
Q Did you ever have any leave in June of 1941?
A No.
Q Do you know, Mr. Kraeutler, whether there is anything said in the material which passed through your hands regarding political commissars among the communist partisan units in the Southeast?
A It is not known to me.
Q Did you got to know anything about the organization of the partisans in the course of your official duties?
A No, I never gained any knowledge concerning that.
Q I have just been given a note that the interpreter may be perhaps confusing "chefsache", affairs of the Chief of Staff, with "geheime commando-sache" which means top secret. You are not confusing them?
THE INTERPRETER: We are trying not to confuse them.
We have designated "chefsache" as super top secret -- that is the highest classification we have, isn't it? And top secret command matter is "geheime commando-sache."
Q You stated, Mr. Kraeutler, that you have never been in Russia?
A Yes, I was never there.
Q How did you know the code name Barbarossa that refers to the Russian campaign?
A I had to know that because the code name Barbarossa was generally known just as much as the name "Sea Lion" in the campaign against France.
Q Did you have to know the code name Barbarossa in order to fulfil your duties in the Southeast?
A No, I didn't have to know it for my duties but I did know it.
Q Perhaps you can tell me some of the other code names for several of the other campaigns. Do you know the code name for the Austrian invasion in 1938?
A I don't know it because I didn't take part there. I wasn't present.
Q Do you know the code name for the invasion of Poland?
A No, at that time I wasn't in the staff
Q Do you know any other code name besides Barbarossa?
A Yes, the code name in Greece in the campaign against Greece I think at that time was Maritza.
Q Could that have been Marita?
A Yes, Marita -- that is right.
Q Did you ever hear the code name Fall Gruen?
A No, what would that have applied to? I don't know.
Q That, I believe, was the code name for the invasion of Czechoslovakia but you, I believe, know only Barbarossa and Marita.