Q This Battalion Pongruber, which has been mentioned here, did it suffer any losses?
A Not that I know of.
Q Then let us assume that the Battalion Pongruber had continued with those executions; would your Battalion then have been informed of the continuation of the executions since the victims were members of these companies?
A I can only say that there was no official cause for this, because there was no relationship of subordination or the relationship of a parallel nature did not exist.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions then.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions on the part of any of defense counsel?
Judge Carter wishes to interrogate the witness.
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE CARTER:
Q. Mr. Witness, you said that this attack on the German troops took place at Topola.
A. Yes. Not in Topola but, as far as I remember, in a small village south of Topola.
Q. And how far was it from Belgrade?
A. I guess the distance from Belgrade to Topola is between fifteen and twenty kilometers, and the place of the attack was, as far as I remember -- I don't know exactly; I just guess -- was probably ten kilometers south of Topola.
Q. How far is it from Topola to Sabac?
A. Well, from Topola to Sabac, as far as I remember, -- Sabac is west of Belgrade, possibly thirty kilometers west of Belgrade, and Topola... but I am not sure.
Q. And does Topola lie between Sabac and Belgrade?
A. No. It is situated more to the south of Belgrade whereas Sabac, as far as I remember, lies west of Belgrade. Mathematically speaking, if you would connect these three places, a triangle would appear.
JUDGE CARTER: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Burke, do you have any questions?
JUDGE BURKE: No.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may be excused.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, as the next witness I call Karl Kraeutler.
KARL KRAEUTLER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will raise his right hand and be sworn. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Would you please give your full name to the Court?
A. Karl Kraeutler.
Q. Would you kindly spell your surname?
A. K-r-a-e-u-t-l-e-r.
Q. Where and when were you born?
A. On the 30th of October, 1894.
Q. And where?
A. In Laa on the Theyer.
Q. Would you kindly spell this name?
A.L-a-a
Q. And in which country is this place situated?
A. In lower Austria
Q. And what profession did you exercise at the start of this war?
A. I was director of a secondary school (Hauptschule)
Q. Where were you director of a secondary school (Hauptschule)?
A. In Gars on Hamm.
Q. Would you kindly spell that, too?
A. G-a-r-s.
Q. And in which country is that place situated?
A. In lower Austria.
Q. Did you take part in the last war?
A. I took part in the last war.
Q. In what capacity?
A. At the beginning of the war I was 1st Lieutenant. In 1940 I was promoted to Captain. On the 1st of September, 1944, I was promoted to Major.
Q. What were you during the Polish campaign?
A. I was adjutant of a sub-area administrative headquarters in Poland.
Q. To which area did this sub-area administrative headquarters belong?
A. It was in the rear army area of the Army List.
Q. Did you then also take part in the Western campaign?
A. In the Western campaign I was regimental adjutant of the Infantry, Regiment 646.
Q. When did you join the 12th Army?
A. At the beginning of November, 1940.
Q. Where was the Army High Command stationed at that time?
A. In Cracow and Zakopane.
Q. What official position did you receive in the Army High Command?
A. I became 4th orderly officer, that is to say 2nd orderly officer in the operational department.
Q. When was the Army High Command transferred from Poland?
A. At the beginning of January, 1941.
Q. And where did you go then?
A. We went to Romania.
Q. Did you take part in the campaign against Greece?
A. I took part in the campaign against Greece in the staff of the AOK-12.
Q. How long did you remain with the AOK-12?
A. Until the 31st of December, 1942.
Q. Where were you sent then?
A. To Army Group E.
Q. And how long did you remain with Army Group E?
A. Until August, 1943.
Q. What position did you get then?
A. In the same capacity I joined Army Group F.
Q. And how long did you remain with Army Group F?
A. Until the end of October, 1943.
Q. Witness, you said that you became 4th orderly officer in the AOK-12. We are going a little back as to time. What were your tasks as 4th orderly officer?
Q. As orderly officer 4 I had to supervise the clerks, administrative matters, etc.
Q. What was the abbreviation for the operational department?
A. Their abbreviation was I-A. Apart from that I had to look after the super top Secret matters.
Q. What do you mean by "Chefsachen",(super top secrets)?
A. Super top secrets were especially designated "secret command matters" which were marked with a blue stamp: "top super Secret. For officers only."
Q. How were super top secret matters dealt with when they came in?
A. The super top secret matters which we received were opened by me, were examined as to whether the number of pages and the number of enclosures were correct, were entered into a special book and were then submitted to the chief of the general staff.
Q. Now you are talking of the incoming super top secret matters. Now what about those outgoing super top secret matters? Did they also pass through your hands?
A. Any outgoing super top Secret matters when they had been signed were entered in a book by me and passed on.
Q. Of which documents in the staff of the AOK-12
A. I gained knowledge of all the incoming and outgoing super top secret matters i.e. of all important documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, we will take our noon recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until one-thirty.
(The Tribunal recessed until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. Dr. Laternser.
KARL KRAEUTLER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Witness, shortly before the recess you said that the staff of AOK 12 was transferred to Roumania. Where did it go after that.
A. After that it came to Bulgaria.
Q. What was the commission that the AOK 12 had at that time?
A. Shortly after we came to Bulgaria the AOK 12 got the commission to prevent an English invasion in Greece.
Q. Were plans made for that?
A. Yes, plans were made
Q. Was that status maintained?
A. Yes, that was maintained.
Q. What happened at the end of March in Jugoslavia?
A. At the end of March there was a coup d'etat.
Q And what orders did you receive subsequently?
A. Subsequently, we received the orders to change the plans which had been made in order to be also prepared towards Serbia.
Q How long was that before the intended attack on Greece.
A. I would estimate about a week.
Q. What was the consequence of this change?
A. The consequence of this change was that the plans had to be altered to the effect to be also ready for any action in Serbia and at that time we had a lot of work in the Operations Department because we had to work very quickly in order to comply with the deadline.
Q. We do not have to concern ourselves with the campaign itself because it has already been dealt with here. How were the acts against Greece concluded?
A. By the capitulation of the Epirus' Army and the subsequent negotiations for an armistice with the former Greek High Command.
Q. Did the Greeks go on fighting after the conclusion of the negotiations?
A. I do not know anything about that.
Q. On the part of the German units were any military operations carried out in Greece after the capitulation had been concluded?
A. Against the remnants of British troops which had remained in Greece and in the islands.
Q. Who occupied Greece?
A. At first the German troops occupied Greece and then soon after that the Italians were commissioned to occupy Southeastern Greece and the Peloponesus.
Q. What was the attitude of the Greeks to this cessation of the occupation to the Italians?
A. The Greeks were annoyed because they did not sympathize particularly with the Italians, if they did not even hate them.
Q. That was the relations between the Greek population and the German Armed Forces?
A. The Greeks were not hostile towards the German Armed Forces.
Q. How were the Greek prisoners of war treated?
A. The Greek prisoners of war were treated in a very mild manner after the capitulation.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If you please, your Honors, I object to the question and ask that the answer of the witness be stricken. I think he has testified he has only seen top secret orders which came from above, which he passed on. I don't believe he is competent or qualified to say how the Greek prisoners of war were treated by the Germans.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, I would like to say something to the objection if I may.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with your questioning.
Q. What did the German Armed Forces do for the Greek civilian population?
A. As far as I remember, the Wehrmacht provided meals for the civilian population and I can also remember that the Greek civilian population frequently consulted our doctors and physicians.
Q. Where was AOK 12 stationed up to October 1941?
A. It was stationed near Athens in Kiphissa.
Q. And what was the situation in Greece at that time concerning unrest?
A. I do not remember anything concerning that. I don't believe that anything particular occurred in that regard.
Q. When did Field Marshal List become Armed Forces Commander Southeast.
A. I believe during the course of June or July 1941, towards the middle of July, I think.
Q. In this capacity was the Serbian area subordinate to him, too?
A. Yes.
Q. At that time what was the situation in Serbia?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors please, I express my previous objection.
DR, LATERNSER: Your Honor, the witness was a member of the staff of the Headquarters of the 12th Army and in this capacity he has not only gained knowledge of the contents of top secret matters but also of other events and, if I am asking him we can then ascendance whether he knows something about it or not. The prosecution cannot know in advance whether he knows anything about it or not and I therefore ask you to admit this question.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors please, it has not even yet appeared that the witness has read these orders, He has testified that he was in charge of the administrative clerks and that he was the man through whom the orders passed in there.
THE PRESIDENT: If the witness can be qualified as to his knowledge of these facts, he can testify but he should first be qualified and we can thereby ascertain as to whether or not he is informed as to the matters of which you make inquiry.
Q. Witness, I ask you to describe to the Tribunal the kind, the manner of your activities and the extent to which you were informed of official matters in that area.
A. As 4th ordnance officer in charge of the offices of the Operational Department and this Operational Department was in closest connection with the Chief of Staff and thus was the office of the Commander in Chief. Through my activities as manager of super top secret matters I had not only contact with my immediate superior, the I-a, but also with the Chief of Staff and with the Commander in Chief personally because I had to take super top secret matters there and deliver them, Since I naturally had knowledge of the contents of super bop secret matters, it was customary that the I-a and at times also the Chief of Staff discussed these matters with me by way of conversation. Besides, as a member of the Operational Department I participated at the meals of the Commander in Chief and the Chief of Staff quite frequently and thus heard after the meals on the occasion of discussions talks which referred to military matters of that time.
Q. I think, witness, that is sufficient for this point. What was the situation during June and July regarding the band situation?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors please, I object. I don't believe the man has been qualified yet. It doesn't appear -- the precise nature of the the reports which he has read, what they contained.
THE PRESIDENT: Overruled. He may state as to what he knows, as to the facts of which he has knowledge.
Q. I ask you to answer the question.
A. I remember that before my leave at the end of June, beginning of July, I heard some talk about band activities in the Serbian area and that was from the I-a reports which came in concerning this subject.
Q. How during the course of August did this situation develop?
A. At the beginning of August I returned from my leave and I heard repeatedly that band activities had considerably increased. Towards the end of August and during September it was very strong indeed so that the situation could be considered critical and threatening at that time.
Q,. What did Field Marshal List order at that time?
A. As far as I remember, Field Marshal List repeatedly asked for reinforcements.
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
Q. When for the first time did he ask for additional troops?
A. That, too, was before I went on leave, at the end of June, beginning of July.
Q. How long did you remain on leave?
A. Approximately three weeks.
Q. And when did you come back?
A. That must have been around the middle of August or the first half of August, around about the 10th of August approximately.
Q. In answer to the request were troops commanded to Serbia?
A. I don't know anything about that.
Q. What means did Field Marshal List take after that.
A. I remember that Field Marshal List then, towards the end of August, addressed a special letter a memorandum to the OKW.
Q. What was contained in this memorandum? What was expressed there?
A. I can't say that exactly but I do remember that Field Marshal List demanded troops in order to be able to stop the insurgent movement in the Serbian area.
Q. Did this memorandum pass through your hands?
A. Yes, that was a super top secret matter.
Q. Was there an answer by the OKW to this memorandum?
A. I do not know anything about that.
Q. What commission did then Field Marshal List give to his Chief of Staff?
A. Field Marshal List instructed -
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, please, I object to that question. I don't think a communication between a commander and a chief of staff is of necessity a top secret matter.
If Dr. Laternser can qualify him on this point, I have no objection to his answer.
THE PRESIDENT: If the witness knows he may answer.
Q. You can answer the question. What happened then?
A. When the Chief of Staff, the then Colonel Foertsch, went on leave he took a copy of the memorandum with him in order to make personal representation to the OKW during his leave on the basis of this memorandum.
Q. How do you know, witness, that the then Colonel Foertsch took a copy of the memorandum along with him?
A. I gave it to him.
Q. What did you hear later about the negotiations of Colonel Foertsch with the OKW and in what manner were you informed about these things?
A. Later I heard from the I-a......
Q. Who was the I-a at that time?
A. Colonel Kuebler. I heard from him that the Chief of Staff had been to the OKW but had not achieved any success and that the OKW was of a different opinion than the Field Marshal. I heard of that from the I-a, Colonel Kuebler.
Q. What, according to Colonel Kuebler's statement, was the opinion expressed by the OKW?
A. I remember that Colonel Kuebler told me that the Chief of Staff was to advise his commander that the OKW would hear the responsibility for all measures which would aid in the clarifying of the situation in Serbia.
Q. How was that accepted at that time in the staff, this information?
A. In the staff it was said that there would be no reinforcements, that we would have to get along with the occupational troops at out disposal and that we would have to take most stringent measures for the combatting of the bands.
Q. What was Field Marshal List's attitude to this situation into which he had been put?
A. Field Marshal List was not delighted with the situation and I seem to remember that he was rather depressed about it and made remarks to that effect.
Q. When and at what occasion?
A. That was at discussions after supper when we were together in a small circle.
Q. What orders of the OKW came in at that time?
A. I remember one order in September where the OKW demanded especially stringent measures and at retaliation measure demanded shootings in a certain ratio.
Q. Witness, I have an order here of the OKW of the 16th of September 1941 which I will submit to you and I ask you to look at this order. This is Exhibit 53.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, is that Hitler's hundred-to-one order that you are referring to? Will there be reference to other exhibits that we should have here?
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, I shall refer to Exhibit 13 and also to the order of the 23rd of July 1941. Altogether it will be Exhibit 13 and Exhibit 25. Both these exhibits are in Document Book I.
A. That is the order which I was talking about. Those are the ratio figures.
Q. This order of the 16th of September.
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. How did that order come to the headquarters of the 12th Army?
A. I suppose that the order was delivered by courier.
Q. How many copies of this order did you receive?
A. According to the distribution list which I see here, it came in several copies to the headquarters of the 12th Army.
Q. What does it mean if an order came in in several copies?
A. If an order arrived in several copies, these additional copies were sent as they were to the offices where they belonged, maybe with a brief accompanying letter.
Q. That meant then that a larger number of copies of the order concerned had already been made out for the subordinate offices.
A. Yes, we were nothing else but an intermediary between the OKW and those offices for which the copies were intended.
Q Do you know whether the headquarters of the XIIth Army, at that time, sent their own opinion together with that order?
A I don't remember anything of that kind.
Q Do you know whether before passing on the order contact was taken up with the OKW by telephone?
A I don't know.
Q I now submit to you the so-called Commissar Order. This is Exhibit 13--one three. I would like to ask you to have a look at this order.
A I don't know this order, Dr. Laternser.
Q What order is this? That is to what extent was it to be kept secret?
A It says "top secret - only by officers."
Q Do you remember that at that time you received that order?
A No.
Q When did you, for the first time, gain knowledge of this order?
A I see it here for the first time. It couldn't have reached the Balkans because there is another code word in it.
Q Can you explain that?
A I beg your pardon?
Q Could you explain it?
A I see the code word "Barbarossa" in here.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I object to that question. The man has testified that he has seen the order for the first time, and I think the matter should rest there. I don't think he should be asked any other questions about it.
DR. LATERNSER: But I believe the Witness, on the basis of his special knowledge on super top secret matters has touched upon a point here which has not yet been clarified.
THE PRESIDENT: The Witness may answer as to such facts of which he has knowledge, limit it as to that.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q What does this code word "Barbarossa" mean?
A The code word is connected with the Russian campaign, and then in the annex of the order it says "for the military judicial competency Barbarossa", therefore it cannot concern the Balkans. I see this order here for the very first time.
Q I'll now have Exhibit 25 submitted to you--two five. And I will ask you to have a look at this order.
A This order is a "super top secret matter." This order again, as I can see just now, is an order for Russia, and the distribution does not mention our headquarters. Although the order is dated the 23rd of July, it must have reached the Headquarters of the XIIth Army at a time when I was not there, and I cannot remember it. But since I am quite familiar with "super top secret matters," I can conclude that order has nothing to do with us.
Q From what time to what time were you on leave?
A I was on leave until the beginning of August for three weeks. I don't know the exact date.
Q When you returned from your leave did you again take over the administration of "super top secret matters?"
A Yes, I took it over again.
Q At that occasion or later or earlier, during your time in the Balkans, did you gain knowledge of this order?
A No, never. I cannot remember it at all, and I'm quite certain that it never came into my hands because such decisive orders I would most certainly remember.
Q When, Witness, was General Boehme appointed Plenipotentiary Commanding General in Serbia?
A I believe in September, 1941.
Q Do you know for what reasons Field Marshal List chose General Boehme for this position?
A I only know it from talks which I had with the I-a or rather which I overheard in the casino.
General Boehme was Commanding General-I believe of the XVIIIth Army Corps--and his divisions were no longer under his command so that he became available for other tasks. Besides I seem to remember that the Field Marshal, at that time, chose General Boehme for the reasons...
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me. I think the record will show that the Witness List gave his reasons concerning this matter and the reasons for the appointment of General Boehme. And we would just further encumber the record here if we had this Witness give his reasons and his interpretations as to why he was appointed, when General List expressed them himself. It seems to me we can avoid any statements along this line inasmuch as we have this other testimony.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, Your Honor.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Do you know whether and when State Councillor Dr. Thurner came for a visit to see Field Marshal List?
A I can remember State Councillor Thurner. That must have been immediately before this time, that is, before the time when General Boehme took over his new position.
Q Did Field Marshal List, after the visit of State Councillor Thurner, make any remarks about what had been discussed?
A He did not make any remarks about what was said at least not to me. I was too subordinate an officer to be told what had been discussed.
Q Did Field Marshal List make any remarks to the effect whether he liked State Councillor Thurner's being in Serbia?
A Yes, indeed.
Q And to what effect did he make remarks?
A Field Marshal List did not like Thurner's being in our area.
Q And why not? Did he talk about that?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I think Dr. Laternser should qualify the Witness. In place of all these various statements and comments by Field Marshal List with regard to Thurner. It doesn't appear that he ever heard them.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the Witness should be questioned as to whether or not he ever heard statements of the Defendant List, rather than just give general statements. The objection will be sustained to that extent.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Were you present when Field Marshal List made remarks concerning State Councillor Thurner?
A Yes, I was present.
Q To what effect did he make remarks?
A State Councillor Thurner was a High Ss functionary. I believe he was an Obergruppenfuehrer, and as such he had strong ties with others, especially with other political authorities and the Field Marshal did not like that.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I think the Witness should be cautioned to answer the question precisely and briefly, without going into all of the background of State Councillor Thurner.
THE PRESIDENT: The Witness will testify as to what was said, that will cover the situation, rather than make any explanatory remarks.
DR. LATERNSER: I only asked him what was the tenor of Field Marshal List's remarks concerning State Councillor Thurner.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, what was the tenor of Field Marshal List's remarks concerning Thurner?
A Well, I can only out it the same way as I have but it, that is the Field Marshal, as a soldier, did not like people in his sphere of command who had strong ties to the party and other offices.
Q What was the importance of the Jewish question at the time when you were in Greece? What part did it play?
AAt that time the Jewish question in Greece i.e. at the time when I was there, played no part at all.
Q And how about Serbia?
A There too I know of nothing, at least I didn't hear anything, and I didn't see any documents with regard to that.
Q How long were you in the staff of Field Marshal List at the time when he was in command of the XIIth Army?
A Until Field Marshal List was taken sick. I remained there longer, but the Field Marshal wasn't there later.
Q Well, what was the opinion in the staff regarding the personality of Field Marshal List?