Q. Will you look at Exhibit 161 in Document Rook VI, page 96 or the English, and page 78 of the German. These are orders of General Bader who on 20 December 1941 was Plenipotentiary Commanding General in Serbia. Will you look at one of the inclosures to General Bader's orders which appears on page 81 of the German and page 100 of the English. This is N0KW-840 and the part I am asking you to look at is on page 81 of the German. Here General Bader outlines the procedure that is to be used in the taking and execution of hostages. Will you look at page 82 of the German, page 101 of the English, under paragraph 2. It says "The seizing of hostages is the task of administrative sub-area, district and local headquarters." The second paragraph, sub-paragraph 2 "The hostages are to be held in readiness in camps."
A. Yes.
Q. Then turn over to the next page, page 82 of the German, page 102 of the English, paragraph 5. "Reprisal prisoners and hostages may from now on be shot only on my previously given written order, which is to be obtained for each individual case. The principle is that the unit is to avenge its losses itself, if at all possible. Since, however, the reprisal prisoners are collected in few camps, this principle cannot always be followed; therefore, troops must be used accordingly for the execution, troops which have nothing to do with the case and are only in the proximity of the reprisal prisoners' camp."
Now, General Kuntze, if these reprisal prisoners and hostages were held in a few central camps isn't it quite likely that if attacks were made upon your troop in Village X you would retaliate by executing hostages and prisoners who would not come from Village X but came from Village Y or Z?
A. The carrying out of reprisal measures was in the hands of the Commanding General and he says here - this is clear from the sentence that this principle cannot always be adhered to and it proves that he was endeavoring to adhere to the principle, to have the troops shoot such people as reprisal measures that had something to do with the offense.
Q. He also says that the reprisal prisoners and hostages are held in a few central camps.
A. The number of camps has been mentioned. I do not know by heart how many camps existed. That was a later time when Serbia had become much more pacified. This is clear from the report that the number of hostages was exceedingly small, that large scale arrest as for instance Truner had ordered them were never carried out shortly before or after my arrival.
Q. Did you ever hear of the rotation of hostages?
A. Do you mean the exchange of hostages?
Q. No, I mean rotation of hostages. Some people would be taken from the population and held as hostages for a given time, perhaps two weeks or a month, and then released and other hostages taken.
A. Yes, this is mentioned in Bader's order, no, not in this order, but it is mentioned in a later order, that prisoners were to be exchanged in order not to keep hostages in camps for longer periods of time since after all they were quite innocent people.
Q. Every time hostages were taken, General, is it your understanding that announcements were made to the population from the village from which the hostages were taken?
A. It was ordered in this way. I must assume that this order was carried out.
Q. Don't you know, General, that there was serious abuse in the taking of hostages, that they were rounded up "willy nilly", taken from churches, from the streets, and from their places of work?
A. No.
Q. That never came to your attention?
A. No.
Q. Let's turn now, General Kuntze, to your knowledge and information regarding concentration camps in the SOUTHEAST during your term of office. I believe you stated on direct examination that "concentration camp" was simple another way of saying "collecting camp."
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Will you look at Exhibit 165 in Document Book 7, page 12, of the English and page 11 of the German. These are reports from the 342nd Infantry Division and this particular one is dated 17 December 1941. You will note the sentence - "Accordingly the Division had a total of 4189 hostages at its disposal. Of these 3618 were transferred to Concentration Camp Sabac and 343 were transferred to Collecting Camp Belgrade." If those two terms, concentration camp and collecting camp, are synonomous why are they used at two different times in the same report?
A. I cannot give you an explanation for this. We may find a explanation in the fact that the expression "concentration camp Sabac" had unfortunately once appeared in a report and the troop continued to use this expression. That at that time a concentration camp should have existed in Sabac in the sence in which we now must unfortunately understand the expression "concentration camp" is quite impossible because the camp Sabac was only established after Sabac had been conquered by the 342nd Division, and that was at the end of September, And from then on this expression was repeatedly used. In my order of 19 March I too, have used the word "concentration camp" without knowing what this would mean to us in the year 1947. Concentration camp abbreviation K. Z. we called all those camps at that time which were to function as collecting camps. That the designations are confused in this order can only be explained by the fact that when the collecting camp Sabac was founded not the designation "collecting camp" was used, but that this camp was from the first called a concentration camp.
A. This is another case in which the report say one thing and really mean something else? Similar to the reports which say "shot after interrogation" when it really means "shot after summary court martial."
A. Shooting after interrogation, shot after summary court martial that is what I understood.
Q. I mean the confusion in use of the word concentration camp in the reports when a collecting camp is really meant is similar to the confusion which becomes apparent in the use of the term "shot after interrogation" when in reality "shot after summary court martial" is meant.
A. Yes, that is an error in the language used in orders and reports.
Q. Do you believe that people in these, as you call them, collecting camps were very well treated, had enough to eat, weren't worked too hard, had a nice place to sleep?
A. I am convinced that everything was done which could be done. The sleeping accommodation were at first probably very unsatisfactory. Everyone will know that who after this war was accommodated in a collecting camp. My first collecting camp was a cave in the ground without blankets, without straw. In order to be able to get me some food I had to look for an empty can. I think I need not mention further details.
Q. General Kuntze, will you turn to exhibit 180 in document book 7 at page 48 of the German and page 62 of the English?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Document Book 7 or 8?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Document book 7, your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: What page?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Page 48 of the German, page 62 of the English.
Q. (Cont'd) This is an activity report of the 704th Infantry Division. Will you turn now to the next page, page 49 in the German document book, page 63 in the English, and note the entry for 11 January 1942, the last sentence of that entry. "The workers made available for forced labor by the concentration camp Sabac were not fit to work because of lack of clothes and because of vermin and illness. They were returned to Sabac on 25 December." Did you ever hear anything to that effect?
A. I have not heard anything about this, but I have tried to get clarity regarding this incident from the documents, because if it had taken place in this manner, it would have to be condemned. In fact, the whole measure was wrong in itself. One can't take people into mines, one cant put them to work in a mine if they have not been trained at all. That people were needed in coal pits was not the fault of the Germans; it was the fault of the partisans. It is quite clear from previous reports that the workers, because of the terror of the partisans, were prevented from working, since these coal mines are situated near Pozarevac and had above all to supply Belgrade, and since the electricity works in Belgrade were just about to stop work, we had to use workers from the camp of Sabac. Whether the conditions stated here were really the reason or the lack of efficiency of the untrained workers, we cannot determine here.
Q. Did you ever hear of any camps of Jews and Gypsies?
A. As I found from the documents, and I think I got a report to that effect when I was in Belgrade, there was a collecting camp at Semlin
Q. Do you know how many Jews and Gypsies were kept in that camp?
A. No, I cannot tell you that offhand
Q. That was a camp just for Jews and Gypsies, wasn't it? They were put there because they were Jews and because they were Gypsies?
A. As far as I recall, the first deportation of Jews to Semlin was ordered because the Jews and Gypsies who had been sent there were connected with the insurgent movement. I remember that I was reported in Belgrade that such elements had to be sent there because it had been proved it had been proved, I emphasize that, that they were working for the enemies' intelligence service. The deportation of such people was a military necessity. It has nothing to do with their belonging to a particular race.
Q. General Kuntze, will you turn to exhibit 162 in document book 6, at page 105 of the English and page 85 of the German. This is a tenday report from General Bader, dated 20 December 1941, and you will note under paragraph 3 of the report, subparagraph C, an itemized total of the persons kept in concentration camps, and at the bottom of that table you will note 5,281 persons were delivered to the newly constructed Jew and Gypsy camp in Semlin up to 15 December 1941. Do you believe all those Jews and Gypsies were guilty of being in the service of the insurgents?
A. Many more must have been guilty because I heard a much higher figure when I was first in Belgrade. This report could give rise to the impression that these persons were taken there in a relatively short time but I believe that I remember that here the transfer of a camp is concerned which had existed for a long time in Belgrade, and was now moved to Semlin.
Q. Did you know of the existence of that camp in Belgrade?
A. It was certainly reported to me, but I cannot tell you exactly as it has only become clear to me now that I was reported in Belgrade that such a camp did exist in Belgrade.
Q. General Kuntze, you were aware of Hitler's ideas regarding the Jews. You know the orders which OKW issued preaching hatred of the Jews and of the Slavic race generally.
Aren't you aware that these people were arrested because they were Jews?
A. No, no, this is not clear to me. We now have the year 1947 and we soldiers too have gained quite a different impression regarding the time of 1941 and the time shortly before the war. I only know of measures against the Jews from that time on, v. e. after the murder of a member of the German Legation, that then synagogues were burned down.
Q. Well, you knew of Hitler's measures against the Jews in Germany, didn't you?
A. No, not to that extent to which it has became clear to me now.
Q. Where were you in 1938 when the pogroms against the Jews took place in Germany?
A. In 1938 I was active with the extension of the "Westwall" near Kaiserslautern.
Q. You never heard of measures of the Nazis against the Jews?
A. Later I got to know of them. I have emphasized that. Until 1941 the importance of this whole Jewish question in Hitler's sense was not clear to me at all.
Q. Did you ever hear of the Nurnberg Laws which were passed as early as 1935 against the Jews?
A. Yes, I got to know of the Nurnberg Laws through the press.
Q. Will you turn to exhibit 105 in document book 3, at page 96 of the English and page 71 of the German? This is an order that went out from General Boehme's subordinate, Turner, on the 26th of October, 1941, the same day that you arrived in Belgrade. Will you turn to page 71 of the German, 97 of the English, to the paragraph beginning, "As a matter of principle it must be said that Jews and Gypsies in general represent an element of insecurity, and thus a danger to public order and safety. It is the Jewish intellect which has brought about this war and which must be annihilated. The gypsy, because of his internal and external make-up, cannot be a useful member of a peoples' community.
It has been found that the Jewish element participates considerably in the leadership of the bands and that Gypsies in particular are responsible for special atrocities and for the communication systems. That is why it is a matter of principle in each case to put all Jewish men and all male Gypsies at the disposal of the units for hostages. Moreover it is intended to transfer the women and children of Jews and Gypsies in a collection camp in the near future and to remove this disquieting element from Serbian territory by way of resettlement. Proper preparations for this are to be made." Did General Boehme tell you on the 26th of October, 1941 of his intentions in this regard?
A. No, That General Boehme did not tell me about this is clear from the fact that he did not sign this but rather his chief of the administrative staff. Boehme did not tell me about this. I have repeatedly stated that in connection with other transfers, I was told in Belgrade of the intention to transfer a greater number of Jews to a camp because these Jews had been active in the intelligence service of the enemy. This order only speaks incidentally of an entanglement of Jews and Gypsies with the insurgent movements especially Jews, but it is quite clear from it that Jews and Gypsies did not take a neutral part but were active in the insurgent movement.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Before the conclusion of the session today which will adjourn to October 6, 1947, at 9:30 a.m., the presiding Judge will make a statement on behalf of the Tribunal with reference to certain matters which he deems of importance.
THE PRESIDENT: Earlier in the week at which time the Tribunal granted to the defense adjournment in order to study the documents from Washington, the Tribunal made a statement in which it cautioned and advised counsel as to the necessity of having all their document books in by Monday, October 6, 1947. We again wish to call to the attention of all the counsel the necessity of getting their document books in at that time. If you fail to do so, it will not reflect upon your defendants but it will reflect upon counsel and will not be appreciated nor countenanced by the Tribunal.
My attention has also been called by the Translation Department to the fact that in some other cases, I do not know whether it is true in this case and I hope it will not be true, that the Translation Department and other departments in connection with the administration of these courts have been asked to translate and to submit to the courts what very apparent is material that cannot be pertinent to the case. For instance, one counsel asked that an entire play by Tolstoi be translated. Now all courts want to be more than cooperative with the defense, but when a request like that comes in it just seems that it is entirely out of the question, so if any requests of that nature come in from counsel in this case, we will not rule on it in advance, but we will try to discuss the matter in a way in which this Court will not be burdened with unnecessary materials. May I ask that counsel who are absent as to the announcement here made.
MR DENNEY: Your Honor, over the period of recess, in order that the defendant Kuntze might not be hampered in the preparation of his defense, the prosecution has no objection at all to any conferences that his counsel wishes to have with him. However, we would appreciate it if he would avoid the subject of the cross examination, but we don't want to in any way deprive him of this time, particularly with reference to documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The Tribunal will stand adjourned until the time and hour first mentioned.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 6 October, 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List, et al, defendants sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 6 October 1947, 0930, Justice Carter Presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will ascertain whether all the defendants are present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all defendants are present in the court room.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Judge Carter will preside at this day's session.
JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I merely want to announce that I, after the examination of witness Kuntze, shall examine the following witnesses. They have been approved by the court for some time already. First, Dr. Ibb eken; Second, Krage; Third, Kraeutler; Fourth, Konrad; fifth, von Greiffenberg.
GENERAL WALTER KUNTZE - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:May it please the Tribunal:
Q General Kuntze, at the last session of the court we were talking towards the end of that session about concentration camps in the Southeastern area for Jews and Gypsies. I asked you several questions regarding the arrest of Jews and Gypsies and their eventual execution. Will you tell us again what your attitude is towards that matter.
A I repeat that during my first trip to Belgrade I was told of the intention to collect Jews and Gypsies who were active in the intelligence service in a collection camp, that is, those persons who were connected with the insurgent movement.
About a concentration camp, in the sense, now accepted. I was not told anything at all. The documents show that the concept concentration camp and collection camp are in the orders of the Plenipotentiary General Serbia and in the reports used indiscriminately. In Sabac for instance one hears sometimes of a concentration camp and sometimes of a collection camp.
Q Without distinction again, let me ask you this: Did you arrest all the Jews and Gypsies or did you arrest only those which you felt were connected somehow with the insurgent movement?
A I personally have not ordered the arrest of Gypsies and Jews. Orders regarding the arrest of Gypsies and Jews were issued by the Plenipotentiary General Serbia as the Commander responsible for law and order in Serbia.
Q You knew what the Plenipotentiary Commanding General in Serbia was doing with respect to the arrest of Jews, didn't you?
A I know from his report at the end of November or beginning of December that the persons connected with the insurgent movement were to be arrested and I know from an order which was issued sometime later by the successor of Boehme, General Bader, that we have to understand that these people were the same kind of people as were previously arrested.
Q Did you ever investigate to see if all Jews were being arrested and not simply those who had a connection with the insurgent movement?
A This was clear from all the reports as far as they were present, as far as I remember only a few were arrested.
Q How many do you think were arrested?
A That I cannot say. In any case I believe to remember that the number of which I was told at the end of November or the beginning of December had not been reached.
Q Could you hazard a guess whether there were a few hundred or a few thousand.?
A I can not estimate that because I have no documents to fall back on.
Q You have your general recollection to go by, General Kuntze?
You were deputy Armed Forces Commander Southeast and it was your job to know what was happening in your area?
A It was my task to know what happened but one also had to bear in mind that things happened in a very wide frame-work. Quite a number of personalities who were either insurgents themselves or in connection with the insurgent movement itself were arrested.
Q Wasn't the arrest of Jews of enough importance to come to your attention?
A The arrest of Jews? That question was not particularly reported to me. I believe my answers show that the Jews as such did not interest me. I lived in Salonika and I might say in a community of thousands and thousands of Jews.
Q And you didn't know what was happening to the Jews in Serbia?
A No.
Q If you turn to Exhibit 193 in Document Book VII which is on page 105 in the English and on page 86 in the German. This is a report from General Bader to you, General Kuntze, dated Belgrade, 20 March 1942. You will note under paragraph 6 of that report, under the second sentence: In the Jewish camp at Semlin there were 5,150 persons. Don't you recollect anything of that nature?
A That is reportedly in a ten day report. I don't know whether this was submitted to me.
Q It is addressed to you.
A Many reports were addressed to me.
Q Don't you remember receiving them?
A That they were received must be assumed but whether they were submitted to me I don't know.
Q It was the duty of your chief to toll you what was going on? Didn't General Foertsch toll you about these things?
A General Foertsch has informed me about all important matters.
Q Wasn't the fact that there were over 5,000 Jews in a camp at Semlin important to you?
A Considerable numbers of persons which had to be arrested were collected in camps. I believe it is not very different in Germany now where all persons who were at all connected with the Party who might become dangerous are also gathered in camps.
Q Then you believe that these over 5,000 Jews were all connected somehow with the insurgent movement and that is why they were arrested and not simply because they were Jews?
A No, I want to emphasize again that when in Greece we lived among a large number of Jews, especially in Salonika and that nothing happened to the Jews there. If the Jews were to be persecuted as a race the first to suffer from that would have been the Jews in Salonika; that the Jews in Serbia had to be arrested is clear from a number of reports.
Q Maybe it is just a matter of time. You know from the documents what happened to the Jews of Salonika in 1943, don't you?
A That I don't know because I left Salonika on the 8th of August 1942.
Q We will come to the Jews of Salonika a little later in this case but for the moment let's confine ourselves to the Jews in Serbia. Do you believe all the Jews were arrested because they were connected with the insurgent movement?
A That I assume as certain.
Q Did you ever investigate to make sure it was certain. You know Thurner's attitude towards the Jews?
A Thurner's attitude has only become clear to me now only after reading the documents.
Q You knew Thurner was a dangerous man; according to your own testimony he liked to be independent and you had a hard time keeping him in line. Wouldn't it have been natural for you to investigate to see what Thurner was up to, especially in view of the fact you got reports saying Jews were arrested and put into camps.
A We received first of all concerned the Commander and later became merely a police matter. We have followed this up and whether I sent any one to investigate these things in the camps I cannot say now.
Q Will you turn to Exhibit 200 in Document Book VIII, page 19 of the English and page 19 of the German. This is another tan day report from General Bader to you, General Kuntze. This is dated one month later than the preceeding one. This one is dated 20 April 1942 and you will note under paragraph 7: In the concentration camps there are 182 hostages, 3,266 reprisal prisoners, and 4,005 Jews. Have you any idea what happened to the 1,000 Jaws that represent the difference between those that were in camps in March and those that are in camps now in April?
A I don't know that.
Q You don't recall having received this report?
A No, I don't know whether I received this report. If I received it the original must be initialed by me.
Q Very well, we will pass to a different subject, General Kuntze. I believe you said earlier that you recall that the so-called Communist Partisans had political commissars among their troops. Is that correct?
A I have not spoken to a political commissar among the Communists as far as I remember.
Q There were political commissars among the Communist insurgents?
A I have read here in the documents that communist partisans had political commissars.
Q You didn't know about that until you came to Nurnberg?
A I have only learned of this here.
Q Will you look at Exhibit 127 in Document Book V, page 43 of the English, and page 43 of the German. This exhibit is a series of reports from the Commander in Serbia to you as Deputy Armed Forces Commander Southeast. I bag your pardon this particular report which is on page 43 of both the English and the German is dated 17 September 1941 which of course is prior to your time, but you will note under paragraph 1 of this report that insurgents in the area Cacak-Uzice are reported to have political commissars besides their military leaders.
Since this report was only one month prior to your assuming office as Deputy Armed Forces Commander Southeast I am wondering if General Foertsch perhaps did not tell you about this information. Do you recall whether Foertsch had anything to say about political commissars among the Communist units?
A No, I can't remember that. May I add here that the political commissars were to be looked upon as insurgents in the same way as other insurgents.
Q The political commissars were supposed to indoctrinate their units with political ideology; that at least is the role of the political commissar with the Russian troops and since the Communist insurgents by your own testimony were organized on the Russian model I assume that the political commissars among the Partisan Communists also had the same function. Do you agree?
A I cannot say anything to this matter. This would have to be contained in the instructions of the Communist Party of Serbia but I have not seen it.
Q General Kuntze, will you look at this document, please. This is NOKW 1389 which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 590. 3 copies for your Honors; copies for defense counsel; for the Secretary-General; for court reporters and court interpreters, and here is a copy for Dr. Menzel to examine. General Kuntze, this is a report from the 738th Infantry Regiment to the 718th Infantry Division, dated the 29th of April 1942. I believe at that time the 718th Division was subordinate to you, was it not?
A The 718th Division was subordinate to Plenipotentiary Commanding General in Serbia and therefore, also, to me.
Q You will see from this report-
A I beg your pardon, I must correct myself. On the 29th of April 1942 the 718th Division was not subordinate to me but to the Italian Commander in Chief of the 2nd Army, General Roatta. These were in combat in the Southeastern areas of Croatia.
Q The 718th Infantry Division was a German division, was it not, General Kuntze?
A It was a German Division. I may point to the conference of Abazia which took place in March and during which combined operation was planned between German and Italian troops, and which was later ordered by the Commanders in Chiefs of the respective forces. This operation under the code name Trio was subordinate to the Italian Army Command 2; the German forces which took part were the staff of General Bader, as combat group Bader, and the 718th Division and perhaps a few other smaller units, mostly technical troops. This combat group Bader, under the command of the Italian Army Command and 3 Italian Divisions took part, as well as part of a Croatian 203 Division -- it was formed at the beginning of April and as far as I remember it was dissolved in May, at the end of May.
Q In any event General Kuntze, no matter to whom the division was subordinate to at the particular time, you received reports about the activities of that division, didn't you?
A No, I received reports of an operative nature from the combat group Bader. Details which are listed here were not contained in the reports as far as I know.
Q Well, Bader would incorporate the most important facts from the reports of subordinate divisions in his report to you, would he not?
AAfter all is said from time to time he sent reports of an operative nature, that is, reports of the actions which took place and the details of the successes were not contained as for instance details of battalions, such as in this case.
Q This is a report of an operational nature, General Kuntze, on activities of Battalions and very important to a Divisional Commander and in turn to an Armed Forces Commander, are they not?
AAn order of a battalion in the large Southeastern area was of no importance to the Armed Forces Commander Southeast, that Battalion reports were directed to a division is somewhat strange because in general the battalion reports to the regiment and the regiment reports to the division.
Q But this is a report of the regiment to the division, is it not, General Kuntze?
these are a series of reports from the Commanding General and Commander in Serbia to, you as Wehrmacht Commander Southeast. Will you look at the second report, the one for the 6th of June 1942. In that report it states: "Royal Bulgarian Occupation Corps mopping up operations by 717th Infantry Division between the Prokuplje and the Jastrebac mountains terminated. 31 insurgents seized, 2 rifles and ammunition captured. Successful engagements of the Bulgarian troops 24 kilometers south of Prokuplje, 1 Commissar and 2 Communist students shot to death, 18 insurgents captured as well as 2 rifles, 3 pistols and ammunition." Does this refresh your recollection at all with respect to the execution of commissars?
A. No. This is not a report of an execution. It says "one commissar and two students were shot," and since this was preceeded by fighting between Bulgarian troops and Communist insurgents, we have to assume that these persons were shot during fighting. This assumption is confirmed by the report what goes on to say that 18 insurgents were arrested and weapons were captured.
Q. General, do you recall reports introduced in evidence in this case, stating a certain number of persons had fallen in combat and a certain number of other persons were shot to death, and I believe perhaps you can recall that I asked Field Marshal List what that distinction meant, and I believe you will recall he stated, fallen in combat meant killed in action, and shot to death meant shot after combat. Doesn't shot to death here mean that these persons were shot after they had been captured, and not in combat?
A. No. Field Marshal list cannot have made this very sharp distinction. I know from the documents in a certain number of cases where the reports read "Shot during fighting."
Q. Very well, let's turn to Russia for a minute General Kuntze. You were in command of the 42nd Corps in Russia for a time, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that time again?
A. I would have to investigate this. It mentions a Battalion here, a regiment, yes. The regiment reports to the Infantry Division 718, yes, that is right.
Q. That is right. Will you look at the last sentence of the report, "One Partisan Commissar captured without weapons and shot." Your received not information to the effect that Commissars were being captured and shot?
A. No, this report is not known to me.
Q. Not this particular report of January 16; but from reports of a general nature, certainly you must have known from reports, and information from your subordinates, that there were commissars among the insurgents, and that those commissars were being captured and shot?
A. The commissars which took part in the fighting were, of course, shot with the insurgents as partisans.
Q. You recall that, do you, you recall the execution of commissars?
A. No, I have just been asked whether commissars of the partisans were to be shot or not, and I said if a commissar took part in the fighting he is to be treated in the same manner as any other franc-tireur.
Q. At any rate you do not know whether there were commissars among the communist insurgents, and therefore you did not know whether they were shot?
A. I didn't say that. I have never troubled myself over the whole question at the time. I know now from the documents that commissars did exist. The only thing of importance to me at that time was whether I had deal with insurgents or not, and from all my statements it is clear that it is my opinion that everyone who fought with the partisant was to be look on as an insurgent.
Q. And at that time you had no knowledge of the commissars fighting with the partisans?
A. I don't remember.
Q. General Kuntze, will you look at this document, please. This is NOKW 1393, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 591. General Kuntze,