MR. DENNEY: I think this is going a little far. We are not concerned with what the mother of the man told him. I object to the question.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Did you later on hear anything from this Greek worker?
A. I have heard that he was very happy in Germany and that ho would have liked it best never to return at all to Greece.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I object to the last question and ask that the answer be stricken.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY DR LATERNSER:
Q. Now a few questions with regard to Serbia. Did you have an inside into the conditions in Serbia?
A. After Serbia was under the authority of the Wehrmacht Commander Southeast I did also gain a certain inside into conditions in Serbia.
Q. As of what date was that approximately?
A. That was in the summer of the year 1941.
Q. Who up to that time was the military commander Serbia subordinate to?
A. The Military Commander Serbia was subordinate to the OKH.
Q. And who was he subordinate to after that, as of the middle of the year 1941?
A. On paper he was subordinate to the Military Commander Southeast.
DR. LATERNER:
Q. What effect did the subordination have,--that is the subordination under the Military Commander Southeast?
A. The immediate subordination of the Commander Serbia under the OKH was maintained to a largo extent, -- that had a variety of reasons. First of all, the Military Commander Serbia did not want to give up his independence, completely and then the Armed Forces Commander Southeast glanced toward the south rather than towards the north, and finally, for technical reasons of communication, etc. it happened that all orders by the Commander-in-Chief of the Army came to us via Belgrade, so that an order, if it had reached us first, and then went to Belgrade; might possibly have been delayed for several weeks.
All of these problems made it advisable that as much as possible could be agreed upon directly between the Military Commander Serbia, and the OKH.
Q. Now how about the administrative staff of tho Military Commander Serbia?
A. The Administrative staff of the Military Commander Serbia received its orders immediately from the OKH, and beyond that from the other highest Reich authorities. So far as I know, they were issued mainly from the Reichsfuehrer-SS and I believe also, from the Reich foreign office.
Q. Who was in charge of this administrative staff?
A. The then State Counsellor, Dr. Turner, Liar Administrative Chief, was in charge of this administrative staff.
Q. And what kind of a person was he?
A. Dr. Turner was certainly an efficient person. In my opinion he was largely dominated by some personal vanity, and from an urge for self assertion.
MR. DENNEY: I suggest the statement about "Dr. Turner being dominated" by somebody be stricken from the record.
DR. LATERNSER: The prosecution witnesses have quite frequently rendered such opinions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection will be overruled.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. You had completely answered the question had you Mr. Wenning?
A. No, I wanted to add that Dr. Turner because of his personality, as well as on the basis of several utterances which I heard him make, was doubtlessly not inclined to be subordinate, for instance, to a military authority like the Military Commander Serbia. It was not necessary for him to do this, by any means, because he was a very esteemed person in the party and in his "SS" circles, and therefore he would always find cover from those people.
Q. Mr. Henning, we will only talk very shortly about bands, because we have heard so much about that already. I want to ask you merely whether you have had any experiences, or have made any experiences, in what manner the insurgents behaved against their own population.
A. I know that insurgents, especially in the Serbian-Croatian area, in the districts which they occupied, forced the population mostly by coersive measures to do what they wanted them to do. It happened frequently that mayors, or other officials were murdered, and it was frequently difficult to find anybody to take charge of a community, because those people were afraid that they would be murdered by the partisans.
Q. Mr. Wenning, can you briefly give us a few examples -- I do not know whether you are in a position to do that, -- but can you give us a few examples about special atrocities committed by the partisans?
A. Individual examples it is not possible for me to give from memory now; because I am a member of the Signal Corps I remember that the regimental commander of the Army Signal Regiment told me on one occasion that some 20-odd members of his regiment were ambushed and were found mutilated, but I do not know where that had taken place, and I do not know exactly when it had taken place.
Q. Mr. Wenning you said that you were Q 1 in this staff of AOK 12. Of what orders of the AOK 12 had you gained knowledge generally speaking?
A. In my capacity as Q 1, I gained knowledge of all orders which were issued by the AOK 12, and which were of fundamental importance.
Q. How about the Commissar order? Did you gain knowledge of this order? That is Exhibit 13 Your Honor, one-four.
A. For the first time I heard about the Commissar order in the summer of 1933 when I was in a P.W. Camp.
Q. Was it valid for the southeast?
A. It never reached my knowledge in the Southeast, and I am convinced that it was never disseminated there. It could not have been valid because there was no cause for that.
Q. What official connection did you have with Field Marshal List?
A. I occasionally appeared at Field Marshal List's of ice in order to report, verbally if I had something to report or when he wanted to know something special out of my sphere of work, or when I deputized for the absent Quartermaster General.
Q. In what way did this verbal report take place?
A. The report was made in this way. To begin with, I reported to the Chief of Staff about what I intended to report, and then I would report to the Field Marshal, and then I would receive his instructions, and finally I would inform the Chief of the General Staff of the result of my report.
Q. What intention on the part of Field Marshal List could you ascertain on the occasion of such verbal reports of yours?
A. It was obvious on the occasion of such verbal reports that Field Marshal List wanted to see something done which would help to establish a situation of confidence between us and the occupied population.
This included that we looked after the food supplies for the population; it further included that everything was done in order to protect the Greeks and the other occupied population from all hardships of war which were not actually necessary, and that trade and communications, as far as possible, were developed and maintained.
Q. What picture did you gain of Field Marshal List during your activity which you have described, - just briefly?
A. Field Marshal List's personality to me, as a member of the Staff of the Command of the 12th Army, as well as for the subordinate troops, is characterized by an extraordinary confidence which he inspired in everybody who ever had any dealings with him. This confidence was based on the realization that this man was a personality who --had a groat sense of responsibility for all the tasks assigned to him.
MR. DENNEY: The testimony is not coming through.
THE PRESIDENT: We will not leave our seats. We'll take a brief recess. You will be at ease but do not leave the Courtroom until we can check up on this little business.
Apparently it is going to take longer than we anticipated. The Tribunal will be in recess for a few moments.
***
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Mr. von Wenning, I had asked you what kind of a picture you had gained of the personality of Field Marshal List. And now I ask you to answer this question briefly.
A. I have already mentioned that the characteristic of Field Marshal List's personality was that from the very first moment one had full confidence in him, and this first impression was never disappointed later. The confidence which he radiated was based on the fact that he was a fair person, a man who carried his tasks with a very high sense of responsibility. He was a man who made quick and clear-cut decisions, but he never made decisions which he had not carefully deliberated before-hand. In principle, he always listened to all representations and reports, and beyond that everybody knew that he was kind hearted and was concerned with everybody. And it was well known that his attitude was a kindly one and a humane one, especially toward any population of occupied territory. It is characteristic that we members of the staff often said, "The Field Marshal is like a father to the Greeks."
Q Was anybody in the staff of a different opinion about Field Marshal List?
A I have never heard of anything like that and I do not believe that there was anybody who had a different opinion.
Q Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination on behalf of counsel?
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MENZEL:
Q Menzel for the defendant General Kuntze. May I put a few questions to this witness, please?
Witness, did you recollect anything about unrest in Northern Greece in September and October 1941?
A I know at that time sabotage acts were carried out, also in Northern Greece and that there were unrests in Northern Greece which as far as I recollect were mainly caused by the occupation carried out by the Italians and the Bulgarians.
Q All right, do you happen to remember the name of a certain band? That is, I mean the Negrita band?
A No, I don't remember that any more.
Q Before, you have talked about recruiting of labor among the Greeks for the Reich. Can you remember by any chance when this recruiting started?
A No, I can't remember the date. I can only say that it must have been in 1941.
Q Do you mean that it had been already started in 1941?
A Yes, I believe there was a possibility in 1941 that Greeks could report for work in Germany, but I cannot remember the exact date.
Q Do you remember anything about the transportation of captured partisans from Serbia about March, 1942, and later? That is, importation of these people to Norway?
A No. Anything of that specific nature I do not remember.
Q You don't remember?
A No I only remember that captured partisans were transported to the homeland from transient camps.
Q And do you know whether such transports were caused by an order of Himmler or by an order of the Quartermaster General?
A I only know of orders by the Quartermaster General. I have never seen any order of Himmler.
Q You have said before that the word concentration camp has never been known to you in connection with this area. I have a few additional question there. Did you ever hear anything of Jewish concentration camps in the Balkans?
A No.
Q One more question? Can you tell us what sphere and responsibility was that of the higher SS and Police Leader in Serbia?
A The higher SS and Police Leader in Serbia was not subordinate to the Wehrmacht, with one exception, but police forces under his command, when it was necessary in military operations against the partisans, were subordinated to the Military authorities for the length of the combat action. Apart from that, he had independent police authority similar to the authority of the police in Germany. That is to say, under the Minister of the Interior.
Q There was no right to give directives on the part of the Highest Wehrmacht leadership with regard to these SS and Police Leaders?
A No.
Q Now one last question. Do you know from your time that you spent in the Balkans the defendant General Kuntze?
A Yes, I do know General Kuntze from that time.
Q What kind of a person was General Kuntze? What kind of a person, as a man and as a military leader?
A General Kuntze was known as a soldier who was very strict with his subordinates. This strictness, however, was never considered a disadvantage because everybody knew that he was absolutely fair.
General Kuntze was an extremely keen worker and frequently concerned himself with details of the various departments and spheres. He would never suffer any excesses on the part of his subordinates and I remember one case which might well be typical. The leader of a column on the occasion of a transport took along Greek goods and he asked for money for this. When this case came to a military court, and it was clearly established that the leader of the column did not use the money for himself he was in spite of this fact severely punished by order of General Kuntze, not because he helped the Greeks but because he asked for money for this help.
Q This leader of the column was a German officer?
A Yes, he was a German reserve officer.
Q Thank you. That is all I wanted to ask.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Dr. Rauschenbach for the defendant Foertsch.
Witness, when did you make the acquaintance of General Foertsch?
A I made his acquaintance for the first time in the autumn of 1938 when I was transferred to the War Academy as a student and General Foertsch was in charge of instruction there.
Q And on what occasion did you meet him again in the Southeast?
A General Foertsch was shortly before the beginning of the Greek campaign appointed liaison officer from the OKH to the 12th Army and later he became chief of the General Staff of that army. Since I was a member of the same staff, I met him again at that time. When General Fortsch became chief of staff of Army Group E, I became Q-I in this army group and the same procedure was repeated with Army Group F when it was created in Belgrade in 1943.
Q What official contacts did you have in your capacity as Q-I with the chief of staff?
A I had to report on repeated occasions to the chief of staff concerning this sphere of my work and besides I participated in all large discussions which were held by the chief of staff, especially the weekly so-called chief discussions.
Q And what impression did you gain of the personality of General Foertsch?
A General Foertsch was a man, a characteristic of whom it is that his general education--that is his knowledge of spheres which apparently had no connection at all with military matters was far beyond the average of a normal person and certainly far beyond the average of a normal soldier. He always endeavored to establish his own measures in such a way and also to educate his subordinates in such a way that all measures were not considered merely from a military point of view but that they learned to judge everything from a political or technical or cultural or historical point of view, whichever case might apply.
Besides, he was a person who had great understanding for everything concerning his subordinates. On the occasion of reports, he always listened to all representations and objections.
Q Witness, did you have occasion to gain knowledge of General Foertsch's attitude toward National Socialism?
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, please. May I inquire as to whether or not you will be able to conclude your examination shortly?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Your Honor, I have to take at least ten minutes to 15 minutes. May I can continue tomorrow in the morning session.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. We will adjourn at this time until nine-thirty tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 24 September 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 24 September 1947, 0930-0945, Justice Burke presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V. Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if all the defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom, with the exception of the Defendant Rendulic who has been excused by the Tribunal for today.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Burke will preside at this day's session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, before I continue further this examination of the witness I should like to deal with a matter which concerns the whole defense. As is known to the Tribunal, the documentary material has now arrived from Washington. There are two boxes with very extensive correspondence. With regard to the possibility of using this material we had a discussion yesterday with a representative from Washington. Yesterday evening the defense counsel discussed the matter again, and I would like to submit the following to the Tribunal. As is known to the Tribunal the defense has, several times, already made motions for a longer recess, which have only been granted partially. Through this fact the defense counsel are now in a position to prepare their defense only to the extent, as evidentiary material is available to them and as it comes in currently, or on the other hand, gets finished. We defense counsels have to work every day and are not in a position, therefore, to present our evidence in a completed and unified manner as it would be most desirable to do. Every minute is taken up with the preparation of the current proceedings. Through the arrival of the documentary material this situation has become even more difficult re garding the time available to us.
We defense counsels are not in a position as regards time to prepare the extensive material and to evaluate it as it would be necessary, besides dealing with our current matters. The defense, therefore, needs a certain amount of time in order to evaluate in a reasonable manner the material which has just arrived. That it is not possible to evaluate this material in just a few hours can be seen from the fact that the Prosecution itself took at least one year in order to prepare its case. We, as defense counsels, want now, on the basis of the documentary material, to find those reasons which led to the measures of which the Prosecution charges the defendants. In order to do this work properly the defense needs, as was discussed by us yesterday, a period of time free of court sessions of at least fourteen (14) days. In case this time-period is not granted the enormous work of bringing the material here from Washington would not have its intended purpose.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The Tribunal will take the matter under consideration and give its decision after the forenoon recess. Obviously the time requested is too long a period.
You may proceed.
DR. SAUTER: Dr. Sauter for the Defendants von Geitner and Lanz.
Your Honors, please allow me to say something about this question of the recess, and in connection with this, I shall make a suggestion which may make the suggestion of a recess appear more acceptable to the Tribunal. I myself am also of the opinion that a recess for a certain period is unavoidable, if the proceedings are to be carried on in order and without any hindrance. In my opinion it would not be proper if there would be disturbances now and then and if the Court would then not be in a position to conduct the trial in such a manner, that of every defendant's actions there should evolve a complete and uniform picture. In this connection there is something I would like to point out. It is very important for the decision of this trial that the question how and in what manner the Partisans fought on the Balkans is answered.
This manner of fighting, as used by the various Partisan units, was, as far as we know, in earlier wars and in earlier insurrections always accompanied on one hand by an unusual bravery and love of their homeland by the civil population who also took part in the fighting. And on the other hand it was characterized by cruelties and by cunning. The defendants say and maintain that this characteristic also applies to the second World War and for the period when they had to fight on the Balkans. This manner of fighting as used by the Partisans, was of course the reason for the way in which the German troops had to fight, because if they were to fulfill their task they could hardly be chivalrous and fair towards an opponent who on principle violated every concept of humanity and International Law. It will, therefore, be the task of the defense to prove to the American Military Tribunal this way in which the Partisans fought their battles. This evidence will only be fragmentary and partial under the circumstances which prevail here. We cannot possibly bring here witnesses from Greece, from Serbia, from Albania, and from Montenegro. And even if we would succeed in writing to reach such witnesses in the Balkans I don't believe that we would ever get a truthful picture because all these witnesses in the Balkans find themselves today under strong political pressure. Voluntarily and without any pressure by the Tribunal they will, of course, never confess to the cruelties and violations of law which were carried out by their own people, and, of course,, they will not give any incriminating evidence against their own people, least of all of people of whom they might be afraid that they might later on be the rulers of the country. For this reason, I would like to make the following suggestion. Your Honors, you might use the recess, which I don't think can be avoided now, and go to Greece and gain your own impressions of the conditions there. While you are there listen to Greek officers who can tell you how their troops, even today after years have passed, suffer under the breaches of International Law, which were committed by the Partisans. If Your Honors will go to Greek military hospitals you could listen to the wounded there who can tell you how they were treated and how, even today, they are being tortured and mutilated.
Thus, Your Honors, you, as judges, can gain a far more reliable and objective picture of the manner of fighting used in the Balkans, because these Greek witnesses to whom you can talk, as members of an International Tribunal, will not be interested in the result of this trial with respect to the German generals. Your Honors, every day we read in the newspapers in Germany and abroad about dozens and hundreds of burned villages which were not destroyed by these generals but which, in spite of this even today, are being uselessly destroyed. And Your Honors, a few days ago I read in a newspaper a report that the Greek Army Commander Kommontini had ordered that, in future, a motor oar with Communists is to drive in front of every column so that these Communists will be killed first in case the road was full of mines. This Greek Army Commander Kommontini is not a German general on the defendants' bench. He is a Greek general and obviously he saw fit to take the same measures, which only a few days ago, were charged to these defendants. Your Honors, if you will talk to this Greek Army Commander Kommontini about his experiences in fighting against the Partisan units of today you will then be in a position to answer the question why the methods of fighting were necessary in the Balkans, because of which these defendants are being accused today, which, however, even today, are being applied under a known Greek leadership. And Your Honors, may I remind you that, for instance, in May 1947, Winston Churchill, who certainly is a very impartial witness, reported in the magazine "Life" that the bands on their retreat from Athens in September, 1944, murdered at least 20,000 men, women, and children because they were not acceptable to them or objectionable to them. Your Honors, you as judges, as Anglo-Saxon judges, might get the material from Mr. Winston Churchill on the basis of which he made this statement and on the basis of which he made this report. And, then, Your Honors, you may use the recess in order to get from the Swiss Government reports which the German Government and the German OKW, during the second Wold War, repeatedly sent to Switzerland regarding such atrocities in the Balkans, with the request for help.
And besides, Your Honors, we were told that, even today, not on the part of the Germans, similar reports are being sent to the successor of the League of Nations, that is, the UNO, about similar events which, even today, are an every-day occurrence in the Balkans. This, Your Honors, is a suggestion which I permit myself to make to you because I am of the opinion that on the one hand a recess such as has been suggested is hardly avoidable. On the other hand, it would be advisable to use this recess in a manner so that the establishment of the actual facts and of the truth can be made. Material necessary for these establishments can be gained in the meantime.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: As was indicated at the conclusion of Dr. Laternser's remarks, the Tribunal will announce its decision after the morning recess.
You may proceed.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Dr. Rauschenbach for the Defendant Foertsch.
WITNESS von WENNING - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH (CONTINUED):
Q Witness, yesterday I had started to ask you a question, and I had asked you about the military personality of General Foertsch, and when the recess came I was just about to ask you about General Foertsch's attitude towards National Socialism. From your official and non-official contacts with General Foertsch, did you gain an impression about his relationship to National Socialism?
A Yes, it was obvious that General Foertsch, at that time, did not openly take up any position towards National Socialism or to the Nazi Party. Everybody who took part in his discussions and meetings or who otherwise had an occasion to talk to him would find it obvious that he, at least, did not agree with many things which the National Socialist Government planned or carried out. And in such cases he never hid his opposition.
That was especially clearly seen in his rejection of Higher SS and Police Leaders and in his rejection of State Counsellor Thurner who was in great esteem in Party circles, and towards his attitude against political persons in the Balkans.
Q Witness, you talked of a number of measures which were carried out in the area Command Southeast favorable to the population. I'm only reminding you of the oil supplies and of the support of the population regarding food supplies, etc. What was General Foertsch's attitude and relationship to these measures? Did he have any information on them?
A Generally speaking, I received my orders through General Foertsch. I must assume that, with certainty, the bulk of these measures was thought up by General Foertsch. I do not know to what extant he ordered these measures, after he had merely gained the consent of the Commander in Chief or to what extent these measures were thought up by the Commander in Chief personally and passed on by General Foertsch. In any case there can be no doubt that the Commanders in Chief and the Chief of the General Staff were of the same opinion regarding these points, and that General Foertsch, for his own part, did everything in order to carry out these measures and make them successful.
Q Witness, you were just talking of General Foertsch's giving you orders. Could General Foertsch have given such orders immediately to lower echelons or only to you in his capacity as a staff member?
A. After he had gained the consent of the Commanderin-Chief, he could have given such orders immediately to the subordinate units. However, that was not customary because I was the expert for these matters and General Foertsch, alone through the fact that he commissioned me to carry out these orders had an opportunity to listen to possible arguments to the contrary or to accept suggestions for the carrying out of his orders.
Q. Was there at ail times sufficient transportation available in order to supply the German troops?
A. There was only a percentage of transportation available which would have been sufficient for the German troops alone and-
Q. And do you believe that in spite of this, these oil supplies were carried out which were not meant for the German troops?
A. There were two regions for this. First of all, the Commanders on the Balkans were well aware of their duties as a victorious nation towards the vanquished and secondly, pure reason alone made it necessary for us to try with all means available to us to maintain law and order in the occupied territory and to establish a state of confidence between the population and the German Wehrmacht. We were aware of the fact that a country which was ruled by hunger and where the population is restiles, and where economy and transport are destroyed-that in such a country military operations are very difficult if not impossible.
Law and order in the country and a proper economic life was necessary for the possible defense against an allied invasion just as necessary as, for instance, sufficient munition or military things of that nature.
Q. Witness, is it your opinion or was that General Foertsch's opinion, such as he expressed it at that time?
A. That was General Foertsch's opinion as he expressed it at that time and besides it is my own opinion too.
Q. You had mentioned previously the tense relationship between the chief of staff and state councillor Turner. How now about the Highest SS and police Leaders Meissner and Neuhaus?
A. The details regarding this I do not know, but I do know that General Foertsch repeatedly complained about both of these people and that it would have suited him best if these gentlemen would have discontinued their activities in the Balkans.
Q. And how about General Foertsch's attitude towards the allied Italians and Bulgarians?
A. The methods of the Italians and Bulgarians deviated from ours. I do know that the Italians in many respects plundered and looted Greece. General Foertsch had repeatedly intervened an order to prevent such matters. Thus I recollect that at one time he intervened when the Italians were cutting down too much wood at the Dalmation Coast. I remember, further, that at one time he dealt with a Greek complaint concerning the fact that the Italians in a village near Larissa drove away all cattle. At that tame, it was made sure than the population regained their cattle, at least partially.
Q. Did General Foertsch have differences of opinion with the Bulgarians concerning the treatment of the population?
A. The very inconsiderate policy of the Bulgarians in the areas which in their opinion were purely Bulgarians areas and in which they tried to exterminate nationals of other populations, in these areas found the sympathy of General Foertsch and I remember that at several times he tried to gain influence on the liaison officer in order to have these ruthless measures discontinued.
Q. Did you yourself have contact with and an opportunity to talk to this liaison officer?
A. I have frequently discussed these matters with the liaison officer. At one time this gentleman told me almost literally that we with our methods on the Balkans would never achieve law and order. I asked him in which way he meant that and he answered "With simply shooting or hanging these people, you can never get through here. On the Balkans, you have to pour hot water down people's backs or tear away their fingernails or do other such things."
I answered him that one could expect such things of a German and he said that the partisans would then probably grow to become partisan armies because if we kept on acting the way we did we would just be considered weak and incapable.
Q. Were the Bulgarians more successful in fighting the partisans then the Germans?
A. Locally on the spots where they exterminated a village by simply killing all the people or at least driving them away from the village they did have more success.
Q. And now a last question. Witness, is anything known to you of the relations between General Foertsch and the Croatian Poglavnik?
A. Of a relationship between General Foertsch and the Poglavnik personally I do not know anything, but I do know that General Foertsch rejected the then existing Croatian state several times. He described it in discussions as a so-called operetta state and he expressed that Poglavnik had no roofs in the population and could therefore not carry out governmental authorities.
Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q. Dr. Mueller-Torgow for General Felmy.