Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 24 September 1947, 0930-0945, Justice Burke presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V. Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if all the defendants are present in the Courtroom?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in the Courtroom, with the exception of the Defendant Rendulic who has been excused by the Tribunal for today.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Burke will preside at this day's session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, before I continue further this examination of the witness I should like to deal with a matter which concerns the whole defense. As is known to the Tribunal, the documentary material has now arrived from Washington. There are two boxes with very extensive correspondence. With regard to the possibility of using this material we had a discussion yesterday with a representative from Washington. Yesterday evening the defense counsel discussed the matter again, and I would like to submit the following to the Tribunal. As is known to the Tribunal the defense has, several times, already made motions for a longer recess, which have only been granted partially. Through this fact the defense counsel are now in a position to prepare their defense only to the extent, as evidentiary material is available to them and as it comes in currently, or on the other hand, gets finished. We defense counsels have to work every day and are not in a position, therefore, to present our evidence in a completed and unified manner as it would be most desirable to do. Every minute is taken up with the preparation of the current proceedings. Through the arrival of the documentary material this situation has become even more difficult re garding the time available to us.
We defense counsels are not in a position as regards time to prepare the extensive material and to evaluate it as it would be necessary, besides dealing with our current matters. The defense, therefore, needs a certain amount of time in order to evaluate in a reasonable manner the material which has just arrived. That it is not possible to evaluate this material in just a few hours can be seen from the fact that the Prosecution itself took at least one year in order to prepare its case. We, as defense counsels, want now, on the basis of the documentary material, to find those reasons which led to the measures of which the Prosecution charges the defendants. In order to do this work properly the defense needs, as was discussed by us yesterday, a period of time free of court sessions of at least fourteen (14) days. In case this time-period is not granted the enormous work of bringing the material here from Washington would not have its intended purpose.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The Tribunal will take the matter under consideration and give its decision after the forenoon recess. Obviously the time requested is too long a period.
You may proceed.
DR. SAUTER: Dr. Sauter for the Defendants von Geitner and Lanz.
Your Honors, please allow me to say something about this question of the recess, and in connection with this, I shall make a suggestion which may make the suggestion of a recess appear more acceptable to the Tribunal. I myself am also of the opinion that a recess for a certain period is unavoidable, if the proceedings are to be carried on in order and without any hindrance. In my opinion it would not be proper if there would be disturbances now and then and if the Court would then not be in a position to conduct the trial in such a manner, that of every defendant's actions there should evolve a complete and uniform picture. In this connection there is something I would like to point out. It is very important for the decision of this trial that the question how and in what manner the Partisans fought on the Balkans is answered.
This manner of fighting, as used by the various Partisan units, was, as far as we know, in earlier wars and in earlier insurrections always accompanied on one hand by an unusual bravery and love of their homeland by the civil population who also took part in the fighting. And on the other hand it was characterized by cruelties and by cunning. The defendants say and maintain that this characteristic also applies to the second World War and for the period when they had to fight on the Balkans. This manner of fighting as used by the Partisans, was of course the reason for the way in which the German troops had to fight, because if they were to fulfill their task they could hardly be chivalrous and fair towards an opponent who on principle violated every concept of humanity and International Law. It will, therefore, be the task of the defense to prove to the American Military Tribunal this way in which the Partisans fought their battles. This evidence will only be fragmentary and partial under the circumstances which prevail here. We cannot possibly bring here witnesses from Greece, from Serbia, from Albania, and from Montenegro. And even if we would succeed in writing to reach such witnesses in the Balkans I don't believe that we would ever get a truthful picture because all these witnesses in the Balkans find themselves today under strong political pressure. Voluntarily and without any pressure by the Tribunal they will, of course, never confess to the cruelties and violations of law which were carried out by their own people, and, of course,, they will not give any incriminating evidence against their own people, least of all of people of whom they might be afraid that they might later on be the rulers of the country. For this reason, I would like to make the following suggestion. Your Honors, you might use the recess, which I don't think can be avoided now, and go to Greece and gain your own impressions of the conditions there. While you are there listen to Greek officers who can tell you how their troops, even today after years have passed, suffer under the breaches of International Law, which were committed by the Partisans. If Your Honors will go to Greek military hospitals you could listen to the wounded there who can tell you how they were treated and how, even today, they are being tortured and mutilated.
Thus, Your Honors, you, as judges, can gain a far more reliable and objective picture of the manner of fighting used in the Balkans, because these Greek witnesses to whom you can talk, as members of an International Tribunal, will not be interested in the result of this trial with respect to the German generals. Your Honors, every day we read in the newspapers in Germany and abroad about dozens and hundreds of burned villages which were not destroyed by these generals but which, in spite of this even today, are being uselessly destroyed. And Your Honors, a few days ago I read in a newspaper a report that the Greek Army Commander Kommontini had ordered that, in future, a motor oar with Communists is to drive in front of every column so that these Communists will be killed first in case the road was full of mines. This Greek Army Commander Kommontini is not a German general on the defendants' bench. He is a Greek general and obviously he saw fit to take the same measures, which only a few days ago, were charged to these defendants. Your Honors, if you will talk to this Greek Army Commander Kommontini about his experiences in fighting against the Partisan units of today you will then be in a position to answer the question why the methods of fighting were necessary in the Balkans, because of which these defendants are being accused today, which, however, even today, are being applied under a known Greek leadership. And Your Honors, may I remind you that, for instance, in May 1947, Winston Churchill, who certainly is a very impartial witness, reported in the magazine "Life" that the bands on their retreat from Athens in September, 1944, murdered at least 20,000 men, women, and children because they were not acceptable to them or objectionable to them. Your Honors, you as judges, as Anglo-Saxon judges, might get the material from Mr. Winston Churchill on the basis of which he made this statement and on the basis of which he made this report. And, then, Your Honors, you may use the recess in order to get from the Swiss Government reports which the German Government and the German OKW, during the second Wold War, repeatedly sent to Switzerland regarding such atrocities in the Balkans, with the request for help.
And besides, Your Honors, we were told that, even today, not on the part of the Germans, similar reports are being sent to the successor of the League of Nations, that is, the UNO, about similar events which, even today, are an every-day occurrence in the Balkans. This, Your Honors, is a suggestion which I permit myself to make to you because I am of the opinion that on the one hand a recess such as has been suggested is hardly avoidable. On the other hand, it would be advisable to use this recess in a manner so that the establishment of the actual facts and of the truth can be made. Material necessary for these establishments can be gained in the meantime.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: As was indicated at the conclusion of Dr. Laternser's remarks, the Tribunal will announce its decision after the morning recess.
You may proceed.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Dr. Rauschenbach for the Defendant Foertsch.
WITNESS von WENNING - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH (CONTINUED):
Q Witness, yesterday I had started to ask you a question, and I had asked you about the military personality of General Foertsch, and when the recess came I was just about to ask you about General Foertsch's attitude towards National Socialism. From your official and non-official contacts with General Foertsch, did you gain an impression about his relationship to National Socialism?
A Yes, it was obvious that General Foertsch, at that time, did not openly take up any position towards National Socialism or to the Nazi Party. Everybody who took part in his discussions and meetings or who otherwise had an occasion to talk to him would find it obvious that he, at least, did not agree with many things which the National Socialist Government planned or carried out. And in such cases he never hid his opposition.
That was especially clearly seen in his rejection of Higher SS and Police Leaders and in his rejection of State Counsellor Thurner who was in great esteem in Party circles, and towards his attitude against political persons in the Balkans.
Q Witness, you talked of a number of measures which were carried out in the area Command Southeast favorable to the population. I'm only reminding you of the oil supplies and of the support of the population regarding food supplies, etc. What was General Foertsch's attitude and relationship to these measures? Did he have any information on them?
A Generally speaking, I received my orders through General Foertsch. I must assume that, with certainty, the bulk of these measures was thought up by General Foertsch. I do not know to what extant he ordered these measures, after he had merely gained the consent of the Commander in Chief or to what extent these measures were thought up by the Commander in Chief personally and passed on by General Foertsch. In any case there can be no doubt that the Commanders in Chief and the Chief of the General Staff were of the same opinion regarding these points, and that General Foertsch, for his own part, did everything in order to carry out these measures and make them successful.
Q Witness, you were just talking of General Foertsch's giving you orders. Could General Foertsch have given such orders immediately to lower echelons or only to you in his capacity as a staff member?
A. After he had gained the consent of the Commanderin-Chief, he could have given such orders immediately to the subordinate units. However, that was not customary because I was the expert for these matters and General Foertsch, alone through the fact that he commissioned me to carry out these orders had an opportunity to listen to possible arguments to the contrary or to accept suggestions for the carrying out of his orders.
Q. Was there at ail times sufficient transportation available in order to supply the German troops?
A. There was only a percentage of transportation available which would have been sufficient for the German troops alone and-
Q. And do you believe that in spite of this, these oil supplies were carried out which were not meant for the German troops?
A. There were two regions for this. First of all, the Commanders on the Balkans were well aware of their duties as a victorious nation towards the vanquished and secondly, pure reason alone made it necessary for us to try with all means available to us to maintain law and order in the occupied territory and to establish a state of confidence between the population and the German Wehrmacht. We were aware of the fact that a country which was ruled by hunger and where the population is restiles, and where economy and transport are destroyed-that in such a country military operations are very difficult if not impossible.
Law and order in the country and a proper economic life was necessary for the possible defense against an allied invasion just as necessary as, for instance, sufficient munition or military things of that nature.
Q. Witness, is it your opinion or was that General Foertsch's opinion, such as he expressed it at that time?
A. That was General Foertsch's opinion as he expressed it at that time and besides it is my own opinion too.
Q. You had mentioned previously the tense relationship between the chief of staff and state councillor Turner. How now about the Highest SS and police Leaders Meissner and Neuhaus?
A. The details regarding this I do not know, but I do know that General Foertsch repeatedly complained about both of these people and that it would have suited him best if these gentlemen would have discontinued their activities in the Balkans.
Q. And how about General Foertsch's attitude towards the allied Italians and Bulgarians?
A. The methods of the Italians and Bulgarians deviated from ours. I do know that the Italians in many respects plundered and looted Greece. General Foertsch had repeatedly intervened an order to prevent such matters. Thus I recollect that at one time he intervened when the Italians were cutting down too much wood at the Dalmation Coast. I remember, further, that at one time he dealt with a Greek complaint concerning the fact that the Italians in a village near Larissa drove away all cattle. At that tame, it was made sure than the population regained their cattle, at least partially.
Q. Did General Foertsch have differences of opinion with the Bulgarians concerning the treatment of the population?
A. The very inconsiderate policy of the Bulgarians in the areas which in their opinion were purely Bulgarians areas and in which they tried to exterminate nationals of other populations, in these areas found the sympathy of General Foertsch and I remember that at several times he tried to gain influence on the liaison officer in order to have these ruthless measures discontinued.
Q. Did you yourself have contact with and an opportunity to talk to this liaison officer?
A. I have frequently discussed these matters with the liaison officer. At one time this gentleman told me almost literally that we with our methods on the Balkans would never achieve law and order. I asked him in which way he meant that and he answered "With simply shooting or hanging these people, you can never get through here. On the Balkans, you have to pour hot water down people's backs or tear away their fingernails or do other such things."
I answered him that one could expect such things of a German and he said that the partisans would then probably grow to become partisan armies because if we kept on acting the way we did we would just be considered weak and incapable.
Q. Were the Bulgarians more successful in fighting the partisans then the Germans?
A. Locally on the spots where they exterminated a village by simply killing all the people or at least driving them away from the village they did have more success.
Q. And now a last question. Witness, is anything known to you of the relations between General Foertsch and the Croatian Poglavnik?
A. Of a relationship between General Foertsch and the Poglavnik personally I do not know anything, but I do know that General Foertsch rejected the then existing Croatian state several times. He described it in discussions as a so-called operetta state and he expressed that Poglavnik had no roofs in the population and could therefore not carry out governmental authorities.
Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q. Dr. Mueller-Torgow for General Felmy.
Herr von Wenning, after the Greek capitulation, were the Greek officers released with their weapons or without weapons?
A. The Greek officers retained their weapons after the capitulation. That is, with the restriction that they had to give their word of honor not to carryout any hostile actions against the German Wehrmacht.
Q. Was also the obligation included that they had to return home immediately?
A. I believe yes, but I can't remember details at the moment.
Q. Yesterday you made statements about military hospitals in Athens. I have just a short supplementary question here. A Greek witness has stated here that the German troops after their march into Athens-
MR. DENNEY: If your Honor please, I object to counsel quoting testimony of another witness. I believe he can't answer this question.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW; Your Honor, my question is in immediate connection with the direct examination by Dr. Laternser.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Objection overruled. Proceed.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
A. This Greek witness has maintained that the Germans, after their conquest of Athens, evacuated the Greek wounded and especially the amputated from the Greek hospitals and left them in the streets. Thus, he wanted to describe the very mean treatment by the Germans of the Greeks. Do you know anything about that?
A. I am sure that it never happened that Greek wounded were left anywhere in the street. That would have never corresponded with the mentality of any German soldier.
doctors, on principle, treated wounded of any nationality equally well, as I have already stated yesterday. Military hospitals were requisitioned by us but that was always done in such a manner that discussions proceeded with the Greek authorities and that there was sufficient time and opportunity to evacuate these hospitals to other hospitals in a proper manner. I remember too that for instance we put transportation at the disposal of the hospitals for this purpose.
Q. Summarizing, you can then say that the Greek wounded were not treated any worse by the Germans than their own wounded?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Is there further examination on the part of any of the defense counsel? Mr. Denney, have you any crossexamination?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Witness, when did you enter the army?
A On the 1st of April, 1928.
Q And were you a professional soldier?
A Yes.
Q Were you a member of the general staff corps?
A I didn't understand.
Q Were you a member of the general staff corps?
A Yes.
Q What was your rank at the beginning of the war?
A Captain.
Q When were you promoted to major?
A In February, 1942.
Q And when were you promoted to lieutenant colonel?
A In the spring of 1943.
Q And you remained a lieutenant colonel until the end of the war?
A Yes.
Q Did you command troops at any time throughout the war?
A No.
Q You were always a staff officer, weren't you?
A. All officers from major up are staff officers.
Q Let me put it in a different way. During the war, you always served on a staff. You never commanded, any soldiers.
A Yes.
Q And at least while you were with the 12th army, Supreme Command Southeast, Army Group E, and Army Group F, you were also on an army or higher echelon staff, were you not?
A Yes.
Q And what was your function as Q-I?
A I had to work on all questions which were connected the war material necessary for the troops and I had to take care that all this material was available, that is munition, fuel, weapons, food rations, medical supplies, etc.
Q You were concerned with all kinds of supplies -- what we in the American army call Class 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5? Is that right?
A I don't know the American army classifications.
Q Well, everything that the troops needed -- food, rations, material, munitions, oil, gasoline, and any other incidental supplies that were necessary to the living and campaigning of the troops for whom you had that responsibility?
A I was not responsible for it but I had to work on these matters That is, I had no independent responsibility but I was responsible to the Quartermaster General with regard to these matters.
Q Were you in combat at any time in the war?
A I always worked in the staff. I was that throughout the war. I was on the front but if you mean whether I ever commanded a troop, I didn't.
Q No, you were doing staff work throughout, were you not?
A Yes.
Q You didn't even have a platoon that you commanded, did you?
A No.
Q And a platoon is the smallest unit of a company, except for a squad, is it not?
A No, the smallest unit of a company is a squad.
Q Did you ever sit on a summary court martial?
A No.
Q Do you know anything about how those court martial were appointed?
A I can't give any details about it because I never had anything to do with it.
DR. LATERNSER: I object, Your Honor, that was not subject of the direct examination and can therefore not be made subject of the cross-examination.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Objection overruled.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q In your function as Q-I officer under the Quartermaster General of the general staff of whichever group you were attached to, did you have anything to do other than from the supply point with prisoners of war?
A I had to do with prisoners of war inasmuch as the transient camps which were in our respective areas had to be supplied and the transportation home had to be regulated.
Q Were you responsible for the way the prisoners of war were treated?
A No.
Q Your only connection with them was supply, nothing else -supply and transportation?
A Yes, supply and transportation and everything else that has to do with the supplies -- that is medical supplies, clothing, etc.
Q Where were your headquarters?
AAt what time do you mean?
Q Oh, in 1941, 1942.
A L941 first of all in Bukarest and later in Kronstadt in Rumania, then in Chagoria near Sofia, Bulgaria, and then in Salonika after the conquest of Salonika. After the conquest of Athens, headquarters were established there. That is approximately as of November, 1941, it was again in Salonika.. Later on, I was transferred to Army Group F inBelgrade.
Q How long were you in Athens?
AAs of the time of the conquest of Athens up to approximately November of the same year.
Q And then did you return there at any later time either with Army Group # or Army Group F?
A No, only for personal reasons I was there on a trip when I passed through.
Q Did you ever hear of a camp in Athens called Chaidari?
A No.
Q Were you ever in Belgrade?
A Whether I was in Belgrade?
Q Yes.
A Yes, I was in Belgrade at one time for a short period when we took over the command area Serbia in order to get informed about the supply situation there and later on after the Army Group F had been created up to June 1944.
Q Did you ever hear of a concentration camp at Sabac?
A No, I don't know anything about it.
Q Did you ever hear of a camp at Zucovice?
A No.
Q You say that the transport of the German army was always short during the entire time of your duty in the Southeast?
A Yes.
Q And yet you gave your motor vehicles to the Greeks when they were released?
A We did not give any German motor vehicles to the Greeks but we merely instructed the subordinate troops to transport Greeks on their vehicles and get home as many as possible.
Q How long did that business of letting the Greek fishing fleet operate, continue?
AAs long as I was in Greece there were never any restrictions in that sphere. It might have been possible that it was temporarily discon tinued because of allied submarine danger.
Q Did yon ever hear of any restriction being placed on fishing once it had been taken up again?
A No, I don't know of any other restriction on the part of the Germans than the one which I have already mentioned, that for certain periods certain districts were not allowed to be fished in because of submarine danger.
Q Except then for this submarine danger and occasional periodic restrictions, the Greek fishing fleet was allowed to function throughout the time of the German occupation?
AAt least as long as we were in Greece, yes. That is correct.
Q You have spoken about the orders that you saw. Did you ever see any order that had to do with killing people at rates of 50 and 100 to one?
A I cannot remember those figures. I remember that orders did come in, which ordered reprisal measures, but since these matters did not belong to my sphere of work I only took very cursory notice of them and I can therefore not recollect any details today.
Q. Well, can you recall when you saw the first of these orders about reprisal measures?
A. No, I don't know that any more.
Q. You don't even know the year?
A. It must have been for sure in the year 1941.
Q. Well, when in 1941?
A. I can't say that any more.
Q. Do you know where you were when you saw the order?
A. No, I don't know that because I cannot remember any particular order in any case. I only know generally speaking that such matters were ordered.
Q. Do you remember who ordered them?
A. These orders could have only come from the OKW.
Q. I didn't ask you where they only could have come from; I asked if you remember who ordered them, who signed the orders.
A. I don't know that.
Q. Now, your Quartermaster Department, of which you were head - that is Q-I - you were charged with supplying all food and supplies to transient camps, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. You spoke about the Signal Corps, and that you had been told that 20 odd members of a single corps unit were attacked and found mutilated. Where was that?
A. That was told to me when I was in Salinika. If I remember correctly, the attack itself took place somewhere in the Serbian area, but I don't know any details.
Q. When was it?
A. I cannot recollect exactly, but I think in the year 1942.
Q. Did you hear anything about reprisal measures that were carried out as a result of the attack?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. Do you know what German unit was involved?
A. It happened to the Army Signal Corps, and I think the number was 591, but I can't say that for sure.
Q. Could it have been the 521 Signal Regiment?
A. I said I thought it was Regiment 591. Yes, that might be possible. I don't remember the number exactly.
Q. Did you ever see anything in the orders about the Partisans wearing insignia?
A. No, I don't remember that.
Q. As a matter of fact, the only thing you concerned yourself with primarily down there was questions of supply?
A. Yes.
Q. And any other information that you have on matters down there is purely incidental and you didn't interest yourself much on what went on other than in your sphere?
A. It was not incidental; I vas informed on all important matters, but I did not actually work on them and my own sphere of work occupied me all the time, so that these matters which I just took notice of I had not retained in my memory today, five years later.
Q. Well, in passing at the time you just noticed them incidentally?
A. Important matters I did not notice incidentally, but they were really brought to my attention, but details as for instance this story of the Signal Regiment I just heard of incidentally.
Q. Were you a member of the Party?
A. No.
Q. What was your attitude towards the Party?
A. I never had anything to do with the Party, and I have taken too little notice of the peculiarity of the Party as such, and I was not in a position to do that, so that before the war I had no opinion of the Party. During the war my task was so extensive that I had no time to think about the Party.
Q. Now, this conversation you had with a Bulgarian officer with reference to the lenient measures which the Bulgarians were employing in Serbia and Greece - did you report that to any of your superiors?
A. I don't think I reported it, but I might have talked to one of the gentlemen about that. I don't know any more.
Q. When did this conversation take place, do you recall?
A. It was in Salonika. It would therefore have only been towards the end of the year 1941 or the beginning of 1942, but I can't say for sure.
Q. Can you ever remember seeing any reports with reference to the execution of Jewish people?
A. No.
Q. If you had seen them, would you have remembered them?
A. I am pretty sure that I would have remembered them in that case. At least I would remember that something of that sort would have happened, maybe without the details.
Q. You spoke about the defendant Foertsch getting the consent of the Armed Forces Commander Southeast and then giving orders to the troops, but the general procedure that was followed there was that Foertsch issued the orders through you?
A. General Foertsch did not issue any orders through me, but he commissioned me to check whether certain orders, if less important, were signed by the Quartermaster General, or if they were of any importance, whether they were signed by the Commander in Chief.
Q. Could Foertsch give orders himself?
A. Do you mean whether he could sign orders?
Q. The question I asked you was if Foertsch could give orders.
A. Commissioned by the Commander in Chief, yes.
Q. And all orders that Foertsch gave were given on behalf of or in the name of the Commander in Chief?
A. Yes.
Q. And Foertsch had no power or right to give orders on his own behalf?