A The Greek prisoners of war could retain their whole organization.
Q What do you mean by organization?
A I mean that the Greek units were demobilized by their own officers. Further, everything was left to them which was necessary for their supply; on principle, every supply installation, food, and medical facilities. They were also allowed to retain that bulk of their motor transport which was necessary to disperse the Greeks as quickly as possible to their homes.
Q. How was the German Army at that time supplied with transport supplies, etc.?
A. At that time already the German Army lacked very considerably in all these things.
Q. At the conclusion of this campaign, was the country of Greece occupied?
A. After the conclusion of the campaign, Greece was occupied.
Q. Just an intermediate question. Who had occupied Athens?
A. Athens had been occupied by the Germans, but the occupation was carried out very soon after by Italian troops.
Q. And were German troop units in Athens as well, ---- I mean units?
A. In Athens we only retained offices. There were no actual troop units?
Q. What was the relationship of the German Armed Forces to the Greek population?
A. The relationship of the German Armed Forces to the Greek population can only be termed as a very good one, I might say it was of a very friendly nature.
Q. What was the food situation of the Greek population when the entry of the troops took place?
A. The food situation of the Greek population was definitely bad.
Q. Were there any stocks of food?
A. I know that before the start of the campaign considerably restric-tions in the supply of food to the population had been ordered by the Greek government. There were no stock piles, at least no stocks of any importance. Immediately after the occupation of Greece was carried out, official personages of the then Greek Government approached the Army and they explained to us that the Greek people, because of the lack of stocks, had to rely on transports.
Q. You yourself took part in these conferences with the Greek officials?
A. I did not myself take part. The Chief Quartermaster, however, immediately subsequent to these negotations, which he conducted, informed me about the things.
Q. What measures were taken by the military agencies in order to forestall any further shortages of food?
A. First of all we saw to it that the German troops did not live on the land, that they did not use up any food, and that food which was still there was saved for the population. Secondly, the official channels of the Army were used in order to point out to the highest authorities in Germany that an importation of food stuffs would very soon become a definite necessity.
Q. Was food imported later on?
A. Food was currently imported. This was actually a matter for the civilian German offices in Athens, but the measures were supported by us. We supported them especially by trying to bridge any difficulties which might appear by coding food from the Army stocks.
Q. What was the part played by the food supply to the Greek population in regard to the distribution of transport?
A. The greatest obstacle in supplying the Greek population with food were the difficult transport situation. From time to time there were conferences during which the available transport was distributed to those most in need of them.
Q. Of what means of transport are you talking now, are you talking of the Army transport or of which transports?
A. As far as we are concerned with motor transport, I am talking of vehicles belonging to the armed forces. As far as railroad stocks, etc, are concerned I am talking of the trains which were at all in existence, because you could not separate them. In the distribution of the means of transportation the so-called civilian sector, which means the supply of the Greek population, was looked upon equally as all the other sectors which needing transportation.
Q. Were there also cases where transports for the purposes of the armed forces were delayed in order to carry out transports for the Greek population more quickly?
A. This has actually happened all the time, because the needs of the armed forces exceeded the transportation means available. I here recall a particular case in which through the Minister Neubacher, who at times was responsible for the supply of the Greek population, demanded that three trains were eventually to be sent to Athens, although the distribution of the moans of transportation had already been agreed upon for the period in question, and the civilian sector had already been taken care of to a considerable extent. In spite of that, three amunition trains were cancelled from the military program in order to make way for the three civilian olive oil trains.
Q. In what way were the civilian population helped further in order to raise the level of the food situation?
A. An essential factor in the low food situation was played by the fishery.
C. What was done for the fishery?
A. First of all all the boats which could be used for fishery purposes were left to the civilian agencies. The Wehrmacht help to put these boats into working order by supplying material and often the Wehrmacht supplied the necessary fuel from its own stocks. In harvesting, the Wehrmacht often supplies personnel, horses and trucks, without the Wehrmacht claiming part of the harvest for there services.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, won't this be a good moment to take a recess, because I want to turn to another point?
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, we will take our afternoon recess at this time.
(Thereupon a recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, doctor.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Mr. Von Wenning, shortly before the recess we discussed measures intended to prevent a shortage of food in Greece. What restrictions were imposed on the German soldiers themselves.
A. There were a number of regulations which were to prevent that Greece would, so to apeck, be bought out. There was, for instance, a strict limitation imposed concerning the sending of packages. It was forbidden for the German soldiers to bring any means of currency into Greece and so the German soldiers only had their military pay which was paid to them.
Q. How was the military pay paid to them?
A. The military pay was paid to them in the full amount. However, at a very disadvantageous rate of exchange so that one could only buy very little in the country for what one got. As the inflation progressed the rate of exchange was maintained so that eventually in practice one couldn't really buy anything at all for the military pay.
Q. Did the Army cede to the population food stuffs out of their own stocks?
A. That happened repeatedly, partly in the form of charity feedings. I remember for instance in the severe winter of 1941-42, 30,000 inhabitants of Athens were provided with one meal out of the Wehrmacht stocks; partly food was distributed to large parts of the Greek population.
Q. What was the main reason for that shortage of food?
A. The most important factor for the shortage of food in Greece was the transport difficult. Even when enough food was ready for import it was in most cases impossible to bring that into the country. The reason for that was the the communication and roads in spite of maintenance by German military railway emergency troops was constantly destroyed again and again by Partisans and a further reason was that the Sea route was destroyed by allied submarine activity and air attacks and that could hardly be disposed with.
Q. We now come to the conditions in Athens and I would like to put a few questions. We have already heard a Greek witness concerning this matter who made certain statements. To what extent were the hospitals in Athens requisitions?
A. Only very few hospitals were requisitioned and only inasmuch as it was necessary to accomodate wounded in hospitals; that is, there was no other means of accomodation and where any other accomodation would not have been guaranteed any medical care. This operation on principle was carried out with the consent of the Greek authorities concerned and the period of time which was given for the evacuation for such hospitals was always sufficient so that the Greek hospital inmates could be accomodated elsewhere.
Q. What measures were taken in the sphere of hygiene?
A. The most important one was that in Greece, as far as I am informed, for the first time there was an extensive combat of the illness of malaria on the part of the Germans. For this purpose the population was enlightened on measures they had to take and the German atabrine, a remedy was given to the population from Wehrmacht stocks and the herds of malaria mosquitos were fought by German Hygienic measures.
Q. Were swamps dried out for this purpose?
A. Yes swamps were dried out for this purpose in order to fight the malaria mosquito.
Q. Who was responsible for measures on the cultural sphere?
A. Generally the German civil authorities were responsible but beyond that the Army had a so-called cultural protector; that, was, Dr. von Schoenebeck.
Q. And what did he order?
A. Dr. von Schoenebeck ordered that destructions which had occurred on Greek works of art would be repaired and he further ordered that such works of art which were not properly protected by the population, for instance when they had been brought into damp caves, that such works of art would be re-instated in their old place.
Works of art which were located in places threatened by air attacks would be brought to protected places in Greece and finally his opinion was asked for in matters concerning military constructions. By this it was to avoided that that the troop without knowledge would damage works of art. Schoenebeck on principle ordered these measures with the consent and agreement of the responsible Greek experts. Mostly he made these experts themselves carry out these measures.
Q. Were the soldiers enlightened on this subject?
A. Here too Schoenebeck played a large part. He was asked to hold lectures and issue pamphlets in order to enlighten the soldiers about cultural works and works of art in Greece and on this occasion too instruct them to take care of these things and to try and preserve them.
Q. Were there similar measures carried out?
A. Similar measures were also carried out in the Jugoslav area. Although here there was not such an extensive cause for such measures.
Q. Can you give an example?
A. I recall that one of the objects which contained most works of art in Yugoslovia is the White Castle in Belgrade.
Q. And what was ordered there?
A. A special German officer with a guard was put in this castle and it was his task to make sure that nothing of the works of art contained there would be taken away and that the whole White Castle with all its contents was preserved exactly in the same manner as we had found it.
Q. It is being asserted now that these countries, Greece, Jugoslavia, were plundered and looted.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor pleases I don't think Dr, Laternser should say what is being assorted but should ask questions and let them be answered.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the counsel could couch his questions perhaps a little more aptly.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. What was done against looting if and when it took place in Greece?
A. Against looting of each and every kind there was sharp intervention on the basis of military law.
Q. Did it make any difference who was being looted?
A. No, the actual act of looting was prosecuted, that is violation of other people's property. When a punishment was fixed it was not taken into consideration whether the parts of the population looted were friendly or unfriendly or whether it was the property of Jews or somebody else's.
Q, What part did the Jewish problem play in the occupation of Greece?
A. I cannot remember that there was ever any discussion about the Jewish problem in Wehrmacht circles. I do not believe that for instance a mere occasion of purchases made any difference as to whether the merchant was a Jew or not and I cannot remember a single case where it had been investigated, whether the owner of any quarters where we were billeted happened to be a Jew or anything like that,
Q. What did you have to do with camps?
A. Prisoner of war camps in--------?
Q. Now again what did you yourself have to do with camps, in your capacity as Q-I.
A. I had to look after the supplies of camps, mainly food supplies.
Q. What camps existed in Greece?
A. I cannot remember the localities in detail. There were altogether only so-called Dulags.
Q. What is Dulags?
A. Dulags is the abbreviation for Durchgangslager (Transient Camp). Those are camps where the prisoners for a short period are collected in order to be transferred later to the prisoner of war camps in the homeland.
Q. Did concentration camps exist in Greece?
A. I have never heard that expression there and I think it is out of the question that such camps existed there, and they were certainly not under the authority of the Wehrmacht.
Q. Let us assume that they had existed and let us assume that they were under authority of the Wehrmacht. Who in that case would have been in charge of the food supplies for such a concentration camp?
A. Such camps would have been reported in the reports of any subordinate unit which were the basis for the food supply estimates.
Q. Mr. von Wenning, the last question which I had put before the microphone went off, as far as I remember was as follows: Let us assume that a concentration camp did exist and let us assume it was under the authority of the Wehrmacht who in that case would have been in charge of the supply of that camp regarding food.
A. These camps would have been found in the reports pertaining to food supply which I had to work on since I was responsible for the total food supply of the troops in the Balkans.
Q. How about Serbia in this respect?
A. The whole Serbian area at that time was a little out of our sight so to speak. The Commander of Serbia was to a large extent independent and the whole Serbian area was not in our immediate sphere In spite of this I believe that concentration camps in Serbia, if they had been under the authority of the Wehrmacht would have appeared in these reports concerning food supplies and food stocks, and I am sure I would remember that. However, I cannot recall the expression Concentration camps, not for the Serbian area either.
Q. What do you know about the deportation of Greek workers to Germany?
A. Greek labor was being recruited for Germany. I believe that the word deportation should not be used here because they volunteered to come to Germany as workers and there were far more volunteers than could be accepted as Greek workers. That can be clearly seen by a small example which I remember. In our mess a woman happened to work whose son, bis name was Konstantin Gafilli, Q. Please spell the name.
A. (con't). G-a-f-i-l-l-i -----repeatedly tried to get to Germany as a worker and after he did not succeed his mother asked me to try and do something about it and it took several telephone calls on my part to the responsible German administrative office which told me that they had too many of such demands and it took several calls on my part until he was finally accepted.
Q. What did the mother cf this Greek worker tell you?
A. The mother was very grateful to me that she finally succeeded in getting her son to Germany.
MR. DENNEY: I think this is going a little far. We are not concerned with what the mother of the man told him. I object to the question.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Did you later on hear anything from this Greek worker?
A. I have heard that he was very happy in Germany and that ho would have liked it best never to return at all to Greece.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I object to the last question and ask that the answer be stricken.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY DR LATERNSER:
Q. Now a few questions with regard to Serbia. Did you have an inside into the conditions in Serbia?
A. After Serbia was under the authority of the Wehrmacht Commander Southeast I did also gain a certain inside into conditions in Serbia.
Q. As of what date was that approximately?
A. That was in the summer of the year 1941.
Q. Who up to that time was the military commander Serbia subordinate to?
A. The Military Commander Serbia was subordinate to the OKH.
Q. And who was he subordinate to after that, as of the middle of the year 1941?
A. On paper he was subordinate to the Military Commander Southeast.
DR. LATERNER:
Q. What effect did the subordination have,--that is the subordination under the Military Commander Southeast?
A. The immediate subordination of the Commander Serbia under the OKH was maintained to a largo extent, -- that had a variety of reasons. First of all, the Military Commander Serbia did not want to give up his independence, completely and then the Armed Forces Commander Southeast glanced toward the south rather than towards the north, and finally, for technical reasons of communication, etc. it happened that all orders by the Commander-in-Chief of the Army came to us via Belgrade, so that an order, if it had reached us first, and then went to Belgrade; might possibly have been delayed for several weeks.
All of these problems made it advisable that as much as possible could be agreed upon directly between the Military Commander Serbia, and the OKH.
Q. Now how about the administrative staff of tho Military Commander Serbia?
A. The Administrative staff of the Military Commander Serbia received its orders immediately from the OKH, and beyond that from the other highest Reich authorities. So far as I know, they were issued mainly from the Reichsfuehrer-SS and I believe also, from the Reich foreign office.
Q. Who was in charge of this administrative staff?
A. The then State Counsellor, Dr. Turner, Liar Administrative Chief, was in charge of this administrative staff.
Q. And what kind of a person was he?
A. Dr. Turner was certainly an efficient person. In my opinion he was largely dominated by some personal vanity, and from an urge for self assertion.
MR. DENNEY: I suggest the statement about "Dr. Turner being dominated" by somebody be stricken from the record.
DR. LATERNSER: The prosecution witnesses have quite frequently rendered such opinions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection will be overruled.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. You had completely answered the question had you Mr. Wenning?
A. No, I wanted to add that Dr. Turner because of his personality, as well as on the basis of several utterances which I heard him make, was doubtlessly not inclined to be subordinate, for instance, to a military authority like the Military Commander Serbia. It was not necessary for him to do this, by any means, because he was a very esteemed person in the party and in his "SS" circles, and therefore he would always find cover from those people.
Q. Mr. Henning, we will only talk very shortly about bands, because we have heard so much about that already. I want to ask you merely whether you have had any experiences, or have made any experiences, in what manner the insurgents behaved against their own population.
A. I know that insurgents, especially in the Serbian-Croatian area, in the districts which they occupied, forced the population mostly by coersive measures to do what they wanted them to do. It happened frequently that mayors, or other officials were murdered, and it was frequently difficult to find anybody to take charge of a community, because those people were afraid that they would be murdered by the partisans.
Q. Mr. Wenning, can you briefly give us a few examples -- I do not know whether you are in a position to do that, -- but can you give us a few examples about special atrocities committed by the partisans?
A. Individual examples it is not possible for me to give from memory now; because I am a member of the Signal Corps I remember that the regimental commander of the Army Signal Regiment told me on one occasion that some 20-odd members of his regiment were ambushed and were found mutilated, but I do not know where that had taken place, and I do not know exactly when it had taken place.
Q. Mr. Wenning you said that you were Q 1 in this staff of AOK 12. Of what orders of the AOK 12 had you gained knowledge generally speaking?
A. In my capacity as Q 1, I gained knowledge of all orders which were issued by the AOK 12, and which were of fundamental importance.
Q. How about the Commissar order? Did you gain knowledge of this order? That is Exhibit 13 Your Honor, one-four.
A. For the first time I heard about the Commissar order in the summer of 1933 when I was in a P.W. Camp.
Q. Was it valid for the southeast?
A. It never reached my knowledge in the Southeast, and I am convinced that it was never disseminated there. It could not have been valid because there was no cause for that.
Q. What official connection did you have with Field Marshal List?
A. I occasionally appeared at Field Marshal List's of ice in order to report, verbally if I had something to report or when he wanted to know something special out of my sphere of work, or when I deputized for the absent Quartermaster General.
Q. In what way did this verbal report take place?
A. The report was made in this way. To begin with, I reported to the Chief of Staff about what I intended to report, and then I would report to the Field Marshal, and then I would receive his instructions, and finally I would inform the Chief of the General Staff of the result of my report.
Q. What intention on the part of Field Marshal List could you ascertain on the occasion of such verbal reports of yours?
A. It was obvious on the occasion of such verbal reports that Field Marshal List wanted to see something done which would help to establish a situation of confidence between us and the occupied population.
This included that we looked after the food supplies for the population; it further included that everything was done in order to protect the Greeks and the other occupied population from all hardships of war which were not actually necessary, and that trade and communications, as far as possible, were developed and maintained.
Q. What picture did you gain of Field Marshal List during your activity which you have described, - just briefly?
A. Field Marshal List's personality to me, as a member of the Staff of the Command of the 12th Army, as well as for the subordinate troops, is characterized by an extraordinary confidence which he inspired in everybody who ever had any dealings with him. This confidence was based on the realization that this man was a personality who --had a groat sense of responsibility for all the tasks assigned to him.
MR. DENNEY: The testimony is not coming through.
THE PRESIDENT: We will not leave our seats. We'll take a brief recess. You will be at ease but do not leave the Courtroom until we can check up on this little business.
Apparently it is going to take longer than we anticipated. The Tribunal will be in recess for a few moments.
***
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Mr. von Wenning, I had asked you what kind of a picture you had gained of the personality of Field Marshal List. And now I ask you to answer this question briefly.
A. I have already mentioned that the characteristic of Field Marshal List's personality was that from the very first moment one had full confidence in him, and this first impression was never disappointed later. The confidence which he radiated was based on the fact that he was a fair person, a man who carried his tasks with a very high sense of responsibility. He was a man who made quick and clear-cut decisions, but he never made decisions which he had not carefully deliberated before-hand. In principle, he always listened to all representations and reports, and beyond that everybody knew that he was kind hearted and was concerned with everybody. And it was well known that his attitude was a kindly one and a humane one, especially toward any population of occupied territory. It is characteristic that we members of the staff often said, "The Field Marshal is like a father to the Greeks."
Q Was anybody in the staff of a different opinion about Field Marshal List?
A I have never heard of anything like that and I do not believe that there was anybody who had a different opinion.
Q Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further examination on behalf of counsel?
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MENZEL:
Q Menzel for the defendant General Kuntze. May I put a few questions to this witness, please?
Witness, did you recollect anything about unrest in Northern Greece in September and October 1941?
A I know at that time sabotage acts were carried out, also in Northern Greece and that there were unrests in Northern Greece which as far as I recollect were mainly caused by the occupation carried out by the Italians and the Bulgarians.
Q All right, do you happen to remember the name of a certain band? That is, I mean the Negrita band?
A No, I don't remember that any more.
Q Before, you have talked about recruiting of labor among the Greeks for the Reich. Can you remember by any chance when this recruiting started?
A No, I can't remember the date. I can only say that it must have been in 1941.
Q Do you mean that it had been already started in 1941?
A Yes, I believe there was a possibility in 1941 that Greeks could report for work in Germany, but I cannot remember the exact date.
Q Do you remember anything about the transportation of captured partisans from Serbia about March, 1942, and later? That is, importation of these people to Norway?
A No. Anything of that specific nature I do not remember.
Q You don't remember?
A No I only remember that captured partisans were transported to the homeland from transient camps.
Q And do you know whether such transports were caused by an order of Himmler or by an order of the Quartermaster General?
A I only know of orders by the Quartermaster General. I have never seen any order of Himmler.
Q You have said before that the word concentration camp has never been known to you in connection with this area. I have a few additional question there. Did you ever hear anything of Jewish concentration camps in the Balkans?
A No.
Q One more question? Can you tell us what sphere and responsibility was that of the higher SS and Police Leader in Serbia?
A The higher SS and Police Leader in Serbia was not subordinate to the Wehrmacht, with one exception, but police forces under his command, when it was necessary in military operations against the partisans, were subordinated to the Military authorities for the length of the combat action. Apart from that, he had independent police authority similar to the authority of the police in Germany. That is to say, under the Minister of the Interior.
Q There was no right to give directives on the part of the Highest Wehrmacht leadership with regard to these SS and Police Leaders?
A No.
Q Now one last question. Do you know from your time that you spent in the Balkans the defendant General Kuntze?
A Yes, I do know General Kuntze from that time.
Q What kind of a person was General Kuntze? What kind of a person, as a man and as a military leader?
A General Kuntze was known as a soldier who was very strict with his subordinates. This strictness, however, was never considered a disadvantage because everybody knew that he was absolutely fair.
General Kuntze was an extremely keen worker and frequently concerned himself with details of the various departments and spheres. He would never suffer any excesses on the part of his subordinates and I remember one case which might well be typical. The leader of a column on the occasion of a transport took along Greek goods and he asked for money for this. When this case came to a military court, and it was clearly established that the leader of the column did not use the money for himself he was in spite of this fact severely punished by order of General Kuntze, not because he helped the Greeks but because he asked for money for this help.
Q This leader of the column was a German officer?
A Yes, he was a German reserve officer.
Q Thank you. That is all I wanted to ask.
BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Dr. Rauschenbach for the defendant Foertsch.
Witness, when did you make the acquaintance of General Foertsch?
A I made his acquaintance for the first time in the autumn of 1938 when I was transferred to the War Academy as a student and General Foertsch was in charge of instruction there.
Q And on what occasion did you meet him again in the Southeast?
A General Foertsch was shortly before the beginning of the Greek campaign appointed liaison officer from the OKH to the 12th Army and later he became chief of the General Staff of that army. Since I was a member of the same staff, I met him again at that time. When General Fortsch became chief of staff of Army Group E, I became Q-I in this army group and the same procedure was repeated with Army Group F when it was created in Belgrade in 1943.
Q What official contacts did you have in your capacity as Q-I with the chief of staff?
A I had to report on repeated occasions to the chief of staff concerning this sphere of my work and besides I participated in all large discussions which were held by the chief of staff, especially the weekly so-called chief discussions.
Q And what impression did you gain of the personality of General Foertsch?
A General Foertsch was a man, a characteristic of whom it is that his general education--that is his knowledge of spheres which apparently had no connection at all with military matters was far beyond the average of a normal person and certainly far beyond the average of a normal soldier. He always endeavored to establish his own measures in such a way and also to educate his subordinates in such a way that all measures were not considered merely from a military point of view but that they learned to judge everything from a political or technical or cultural or historical point of view, whichever case might apply.
Besides, he was a person who had great understanding for everything concerning his subordinates. On the occasion of reports, he always listened to all representations and objections.
Q Witness, did you have occasion to gain knowledge of General Foertsch's attitude toward National Socialism?
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, please. May I inquire as to whether or not you will be able to conclude your examination shortly?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH: Your Honor, I have to take at least ten minutes to 15 minutes. May I can continue tomorrow in the morning session.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. We will adjourn at this time until nine-thirty tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 24 September 1947 at 0930 hours.)