MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, why he did not join the Party of the Cetniks, the witness has said he didn't. I think it inquires into the operations of the witness's mind, matters which are not under consideration here.
THE PRESIDENT: Over-ruled.
Q Then, I should like to ask you to translate the question in order that the witness may answer it. (Statement to Interpreter Targoni).
A So far as I remember, I gave a quite clear answer to this question. I told you that what concerned the first period of my job in the Military Technical Branch. I didn't think about joining partisans because I had been taken care of. My family was all right, and I was hesitant to leave this job and join the partisans. I didn't concern myself with the problems of whether it would be loyal or not. So I believe that later on, after what happened to me on the 21st of October 1941, I would join partisans because I hated the Germans; but I couldn't do that because of my physical condition.
Court No. V, Case No. VII
Q. What did one have to fear if one was caught as a partisan?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, it has been established that the man was never in the partisans. I don't know how he could tell what one could fear from an organization of which he was never a member.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY LATERNSER:
Q. Did you in Kragujevac see any posters which were made by the Germans?
A. Yes. I saw some people killed from the same group I was on the 21st of October, 1941. Later on, I saw a man hanged on the street in Kragujevac and I know one shop keeper who was killed too.
Q. I am afraid you have not understood me correctly. I did not mean attacks. I mean posters. I mean posters on walls. Did you see any of those?
A. Yes, I have seen these posters but the very first day I left my home and went to the building of GFP. I saw this poster in the window of a shop. It was written that because 12 German soldiers were killed in the vicinity of Kraljevo, 1200 people in Kragujevac have been shot. There was a longer list of names and last of the numbers was 1200.
Q. Yes, you have already said that. Did you ever see a poster on which it said who was taking active part in the activities of the partisans will be shot? Did you ever read anything of this kind?
A. Yes. Even such notices I signed when I started my job in the Military Technical Branch in Kragujevac.
Q. Yes. Now witness, you were unfortunately arrested beginning after December 1941. You said you were taken to a prison after being interrogated?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Yes, and you said that you were put into a cell which was two meters by 70 centimeters and did not have any windows?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. What is the prison in question?
A. It was the Serbian Police Jail in Kragujevac.
Q. Who had built this prison? Did the Germans build this prison?
A. No
Q. Well, who had built it then?
A. This building was built up by the former Yugoslavian State. It is an old building.
Q. You said, however, that on October 20 you were taken away by armed soldiers?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. And you said further that all those who were taken away from this prison were taken into a courtyard.
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. First of all, in this prison, did you know all the persons which you saw in this courtyard?
A. No.
Q. Witness, well how did you come to say that all these people were Serbs?
A. Well, I realized it afterwards. I have heard it afterwards. Then I would like to repeat that I told the Court that there were Serbians but one. This last one was a Jew.
DR. LATERNSER: The translation isn't coming through.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we should see if the mechanical matters are coming through all right. We will test it out momentarily.
We will take our recess at this time.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: You may proceed with the crossexamination.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Mr. Witness, you said that in the first prison you were until the 20th of October?
A Yes.
Q Why were you fetched away from there?
A I was taken from this jail the 9th of October because on this day there was a special action going on in Kragujevac and I, together with all other jail persons, was taken away from the jail.
Q What do you mean by special action? Do you know in particular whether during those days around about Kragujevac there were hard fights between the German troops and the partisans?
A No, I never saw that in the vicinity of Kragujevac. There were some fights about 40 kilometers away from Kragujevac by a town named Milanovac and there were some killed German soldiers brought to Kragujevac later on.
Q Mr. Witness, I have here a communication from the Serbian Commission for the Investigation of Crimes of the former occupation troops and in this report of this government Commission it says that in October 1941 in the surroundings of Kragujevac there were bitter fights taking place.
A I don't know anything about that.
Q Have you heard anything about it, that there were bitter fights in the neighborhood around Kragujevac, in October 1941?
A No, I never knew about it.
Q Can you somehow explain then how this Commission came about to report such bitter fights in that neighborhood.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honor please, Dr. Laternser is now trying to probe the minds of the people who are not here, of the Commission of which this witness was not a member; he was in jail. It has been submitted both in cross and on direct from the 17th of September to the 20th and he has said he doesn't know anything about it and I object to the question.
PRESIDING JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Sustained.
Court No. V, Case No. VII
Q. Where was the prison where you were located, was it located in Kragujevac or in the outskirts or outside of town?
A. I never was in Kragujevac in jail. It was about the middle of the town, in the center of the town.
Q. Did you while you were under arrest in this prison at any time, did you hear any noise of battle, did you hear shots so that you could assume that there were bitter fights going on in that neighborhood?
A. There were a couple of firings, but there no fight.
Q. You said, that then on the 21st you were taken away from the prison and in a march led to the main highway?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Can you then describe to the Tribunal how this march was carried out, and did you have to go in close formation or were you allowed to march wider spread?
A. We were all in a column three and three.
Q. And in close formation or in wide formation, were there any guards or no guards?
A. We have been escorted by about 25 of the German armed soldiers.
Q. Would you like to look at this picture, please, and tell me whether that was taken on the occasion of that particular march we are discussing?
A. Yes, this is a building which we passed, which we entered after the end of our march.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, I think for the purposes of the record some references should be made to the number of the picture and the exhibit.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, it is Exhibit 100-B-23. I have the original here. Perhaps the witness would like to see that.
Q. I am showing the witness the original so that he can see it a little closer?
A. Yes, this picture is a bit better. The same kind of groups that come before mine and afterwards. Something like that should be my group too.
Q. And when was that, on what day?
A. It happened on the 20th of October 1941.
Q. On the 20th of October 1941, you said?
A. Yes, on the 20th of October.
Q. You said you were then led into a court yard which was near the artillery barracks, how many persons were in this courtyard at this time?
A. When I arrived there, there were about thousand.
Q. How did you know that there were about a thousand people?
A. There were about a thousand I mean.
Q. You yourself didn't count them, did you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. That is merely a guess, is it?
A. Yes, I guess so.
Q. As you further said later you together with other groups were led into another barracks by German soldiers?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor, please, that was not his testimony. He said he was taken out of one artillery barracks kaserne and by another one. He did not say he was taken into another one. It may have come over improperly in the German.
MR. LATERNSER: That is why I asked him, to clarify the matter. These kind of questions are certainly admissible.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will be able to take care of himself, I am quite certain.
Q. Please, would you translate the question then so it can be answered; where were you led from this barracks?
A. We were taken by the barracks to a workers settlement outside Kragujevac, and then to a field outside of Kragujevac.
Q. And who was there when you arrived there?
A. There was a German officer there, and there being some bodies lying around on the ground in the vicinity of this officer. I couldn't see that really, because it was about 200 meters from me.
Q. Didn't you say before--maybe I misunderstood you, that it was already dark.
A. That is true. It wag pretty dark, and apart from that there was a difference of about 200 meters, but it wasn't completely dark.
Q. And at that opportunity that was when you escaped?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Then you had a contact with two guards and one of these guards wounded you twice by shots?
A. That is right.
Q. When were you bandaged the first time?
A. On the next day about 12 o'clock.
Q. You mean around 12 o'clock noon?
A. Yes, at mid-day.
Q. And who bandaged you?
A. There was a hospital, a physician of the hospital who bandaged my wounds.
Q. Do you really mean to say that only on the next day around 12 o'clock you were bandaged for the first time?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. How did you manage that the wound stopped bleeding?
A. I don't know, but I lost plenty of blood and the scars could be seen on my body even now.
Q.- So you were then asked how many inhabitants of Kragujevac were shot in October 1941, you named the number "8,000".
A.- Yes, I talked about 8,000 people.
Q.- Who gave you that figure?
A.- First I learned it from our priests.
Q.- And where else did you hear any thing about it?
A.- Everybody knew that in Kragujevac. It was a matter of common knowledge.
Q.- Next, witness, I would like now to show you Document 100a, where the Serbian Commission ascertains or believes that in an ascertain 5,00 people were shot or allegedly shot. Are you still maintaining that 8,000 people were shot after the official commission believed that only 4-5,000 people were shot?
A.- I don't know anything about this official report of the Jugoslavian State Commission. I know exactly well that people in Kragujevac thought there were about 8,000. I have heard that from priests who counted the number of the victims according to the meals brought in the church; according to Serbian custom, for everybody was prepared a special meal and brought into church for every person.
Q.- Did you yourself witness shootings?
A.- No, I haven't seen any.
Q.- How can you say then that 8,000 people were shot?
DR. LATERNSER: I am just being told that the transmission doesn't come through properly.
DR. HINDEMITH (Alternate for Dr. Rauschenbach, counsel for the defendant Foertsch): I have doubts on the correctness of the transmission of the interpreter. Dr. Laternser asked: "Did you yourself witness shootings?" According to my knowledge of the Slav language -- I know polish -- this question, by adding one word "micno" would be quite different. According to my knowledge, "micno" means "numerous" -- "Did you witness numerous shootings?"
That , in my opinion, would not comply with the duties of an interpreter if, by such an addition, the question is not properly expressed.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court first wishes to ascertain as to whether or not the German translation is coming through to the German defendants and German Counsel.
I think that answers the first inquiry of the counsel.
The next matter to be considered is as to the interrogation of the witness, or the interpreter, as to the statements made by him.
I take it that the cross examination should not be carried on by more than one counsel. I would suggest you permit Dr. Laternser to interrogate the witness on that point.
DR. HINDEMITH: I apologize, Mr. President. I only wanted to ascertain that the translation by the interpreter was correct. We get the impression that the transmission of the interpreting is not correct. This is not the first case that I notice the discrepancy. I remember when the examination first started the witness was being asked who interrogated him on the 17th of September when he was being collected. The witness designated the officer as "Porushnik". "Porushnik" corresponds to the Polish word "Porushnik." That means "Lieutenant." The interpreter transmitted "Captain." If one compares the record, this could be easily ascertained. There was, therefore, a discrepancy durint the examination of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me. May I suggest -- repeating -- may I suggest that you make a note of this matter and hand it to Dr. Laternser or confer with him concerning this matter so that he may carry on the examination? We cannot have it carried on by two parties.
DR. HINDEMITH: Very well, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I might add that if counsel wishes to take a little time to confer with Dr. Laternser, the Tribunal will give him that op portunity; but I do not think that we should be interrupted and have the matter handled by two persons.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q.- Now, witness, I asked you -- I don't know whether the answer has come through -- whether you yourself witnessed shootings; that is in the course of the 20th or 21st of October, 1941.
A.- No, I answered that I never saw any killings by myself.
Q.- And, in contradiction to the report of the commission in which the alleged number of 4-5,000 are mentioned, you want to increase that figure to 8,000 without ever having witnessed a shooting yourself?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I object to the form of the question. He is saying that he is contradicting the commission. The record is clear that Dr. Laternser says the commission says 5,000 and that the witness says it was 8,000 and I believe the Tribunal can make any inference they wish to make from it, but I object to Dr. Laternser using the term to him of "contradicting the commission."
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q.- Witness, you further said that the Town Commander -- I think you mentioned the name "Schuster, the town major -- on the 21st of October, with a tank, drove to the spot of the execution.
A.- Yes -- but only one correction. It wasn't the town major. It was the "Ortskommandant."
Q.- And you mean to say that he, on the 21st of October, with an armored car drove to the spot of the execution?
A.- I don't know whether I told on the 21st of October. If I did, it wasn't correct. It should be 22nd of October. I am sorry.
Q.- Did you know the local commander Schuster personally?
A.- No, I didn't know him personally but I have seen him for quite a time. He was a short man, a blonde one.
Q.- Where were you yourself on the 21st, or be it the 22nd of October?
A.- On the 22nd of Octover I was home.
Q.- Didn't you say previously that on the 22nd of Octover you were in a hospital?
A.- No.
Q.- Did you, yourself, see Major Schuster drive in that tank, you are talking about?
A.- No, I didn't see him.
Q.- How can you say that he drove to the spot of the execution in a tank?
A.- I was told about that by the person who was saved by Major Schuster, as I told you before.
Q.- There is one last question I would like to put. Are you free now, are you at liberty?
A.- Yes, right.
Q.- How did it happen then that you are appearing here as a witness? Did you volunteer, or were you requested to come here.
A.- I reported myself as a voluntary witness, and I do not know through what channels that application of mine, went on.
Q.- I did not understand that answer.
A.- I reported myself to witness any German atrocities committed in Kragujevac, and according to this, my statement, I was called presumably by the State Commission. I do not know exactly.
Q.- There is one more point I would like to bring up. Have you ever seen a partisan in uniform?
A.- Yes, when I arrived in Kragujevac, in 1944.
Q.- Would you please describe that uniform, that that partisan you are talking about was wearing?
A.- Mostly it was a British soldier's uniform, battle dress.
Q.- Yes, what color did this uniform have?
A.- The same color as that man sitting here.
Q.- For the purposes of the record, it is a brown color?
A.- Yes, if you want brown.
MR. DENNEY: In order that we do not have Dr. Laternser's eyesight or mine on the record, I am willing to state that the witness pointed to a current uniform of a member of the United States Army which is known technically as "Uniform B; winter; olive drab color", but I object to the use of the term, "brown".
DR. LATERNSER: Did you see any insignia on that uniform?
A.- Yes.
Q.- What kind of insignias were this?
A.- There were lines on the sleeve.
Q.- Did you see several partisans in uniforms?
A.- I have seen a complete brigade of partisans in uniform.
Q.- Did you ask to be strown weapons also?
A.- Yes, twice.
Q.- What kind of weapons were that; German, Serbian, English, American?
A.- And Russian, too.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
DR. HINDEMITH, Alternate for Dr. Rauschenbach.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: I take it you have completed your cross examination, Dr. Laternser?
DR. LATERNSER: Yes.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Counsel, you may speak/
CROSS EXAMINATION
DR. HINDEMITH, Alternate for Dr. Rauschenbach, for defendant Foertsch:
Q.- Your Honor, before I start putting questions I would like to point out what kind these questions should be. I would like to say that the statement of the witness does not seem likely to me in several points.
THE PRESIDENT: You just go ahead and ask the questions you see fit.
To begin with, I would like to put one question which Dr. Laternser has already put, and that is the question whether the testimony of the witness has been put down in writing prior to having been made here;
As I am repeating this question now, I would like to say the following for my reasons to do this. When the afternoon session started the representative of the prosecution summarized the latter statement of the witness, that is he repeated it. When he did that, he said amongst other things, that the witness had declared that he had managed to inform his wife that he was lying in some courtyard and his wife sent him a car.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: I think that we can hasten matters considerably if you will ask any questions that you see fit to ask in the way of cross examination. The matter of explanation of why you are asking the question is not of interest to the Tribunal.
We do not want to limit you in your cross-examination but I suggest that you proceed with it.
DR. HINDEMITH: Your Honor, I am only interested to ascertain from the record whether during the morning the witness had made a testimony to the effect that he managed to get information to his wife, and that she came to the courtyard where he was, in a car.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Then ask him the question.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I think that he is trying to find out whether or not the witness' testimony was overwritten down and handed to him. It was not. I kept a record myself, which I will be very glad to show the court, in my own handwriting. I have never given it to the witness and the Yugoslav representatives in Nurnberg have never prepared any written statement which has been handed to him.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: May I suggest that the witness be interrogated with due respect to both counsel, and we will proceed more rapidly and more expeditiously, if we question the witness and not make any general statements.
DR. HINDEMITH: Very well, Your Honor.
Q.- Witness, what experiences did you make on the basis of the events of the 17th of September and of the 20th of October, in respect to the German authorities?
A.- I had the worst opinion of them.
Q.- You believed then that no fair treatment was to be expected from German authorities?
A.- Later on that is true, but not before that. Before this event, I mean, I didn't think so hard.
Q.- My question was what experiences, what opinion you gained on the experiences of the 20th of September -- 17th of September and 20th of October, is that correct then?
A.- No, not before them.
Q.- On the 20th of October, when you marched from the Artillery Barracks to that place where an execution was to take place, were you the last group that left the barracks, or when you left were there other people left behind?
A.- The first; only our group which was taken away from the artillety barracks; all other people were left in still.
Q.- Was this an action which was carried out rather suddenly?
A.- No, this action did not come quite suddenly.
Q.- Were the name ov the persons taken before they were put on the march?
A.- No, I don't know how they did that.
A.- You yourself had no personal data taken off pf your own person; was there?
A. Yes, they asked me because I was in jail; I was arrested.
Q. On the 17th of September was that, or was it on the 20th of Octeber when they asked you?
A. It was on the 17th of September.
Q. How far was that place where you were led to distant from the town or rather from the artillery barracks?
A. It was about 5 Km.
Q. And you escaped back into town from that place? Is that correct?
A. Yes, to the city.
Q. And on your escape you passed the artillery barracks again -that same artillery barracks from which you were put on the march?
A. No.
Q. But, I seem to remember quite well that you said you passed the artillery barracks; you encountered a guard there.
A. That's right, but it was another artillery barracks in Kragujevacnot the first one; there was another one.
Q. How many artillery barracks are there in Kragujevac?
A. There are two artillery barracks in Kragujevac.
Q. And you went through both those artillery barracks didn't you? I think I understood your testimony to that effect.
A. I was taken into one of them--into the first of the barracks-and the second one I only passed by.
Q. But in the second barracks there were also Serbs under Guard gathered together. Is that correct?
A. No.
Q. I do believe though that you said something else in the morning, but we shall leave it at that. Tell me wasn't it very foolish of you to excape back into Kragujevac on the basis of the experiences with you had made previously -- on the 17th of September, and especially on the 20th of October? You simply had to assume that since the action hadn't been completed that you would be picked up again.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I object to the form of the question, "Wasn't it very foolish of you to escape back into Kragujevac?"
THE PRESIDENT: It is sustained as immaterial.
BY DR. HINDEMITH:
Q. What aim did you have when you went back to Kragujevac?
MR. DENNEY: I object to the question, Your Honor; it's immaterial. --What reason he had to go back to Kragujevac when he had been wounded twice.
THE PRESIDENT: Over-ruled.
DR. HINDEMITH: May I say something in connection with this? ...
THE PRESIDENT: The Court has over-ruled the objection; you may proceed with the cross-examination.
BY DR. HINDEMITH:
Q. Where were you trying to go to in Kragujevac?
A. My aim was only to be alive, to save my life. I was almost killed; I was almost dead already.
Q. The reasons for your excape are perfectly clear and understantable. What I wanted to know is in what locality did you think you'd find shelter.
A. My aim was to reach the very first house--somewhere; and to get some help.
Q. Was the barracks which you passed situated on the outskirts of the city?
A. Yes, it was on the outskirts of Kragujevac.
Q. Now, something else. You were severely wounded by two shots fired by a German soldier, if I understood you correctly.
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And, as a consequence of these wounds, in the beginning you were almost unconscious and our collapsed.
A. No.
Q. Almost unconscious, I said.
A. No, I never lost my consciousness.
Q. How long were you lying there?
A. Because of complete darkness, I can't remember. I can't tell; I lost plenty of blood.
Q. And how and when did you reach that courtyard where you spent the night?
A. I don't know; I can't tell; it was at night; I was wounded.
Q. Well, did you get there with the help of other people, or did you manage to walk or creep there yourself?
A. No, I did it by my self. Nobody helped me. I crawled mostly and spent a long time to reach this first house.
Q. To begin with, you attempted to find shelter in that house, and the woman in the house rejected that because she was afraid to be persecuted by the Germans for that reason.
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. When did you ask the woman to inform your wife?
A. Immediately after my arrival at this house I asked her that.
Q. And when did the woman send the communication to your wife?
A. Early in the morning.
Q. How far is it to your home from the house where you found shelter?
A. It takes about one hour, roughly.
Q. That was on the outskirts of Kragujevac--that courtyard where you were lying, and you yourself lived where? In the city of Kragujevac or some place else?
A. My house was in another part, quite opposite that of Kragujevac.
Q. That is a town of 35,000 inhabitants. If one thinks of our conditions of towns, such a town, in my opinion, can be travelled through from one end of the town to the other, in a much shorter time than one hour. Can you give us an explanation why it took a whole hour from the house where you were lying to your own home? It was merely a small town wasn't it?
A. Yes. Maybe it is so here, but not there in Kragujevac.
Q. Did the woman in whose courtyard you had found shelter give the message to your wife herself?
A. I don't know that.
Q Didn't she say anything about that?
A No, she didn't.
Q And you didn't ask her either?
A It wasn't important for me at that moment who brought this message.
Q I believe that the obvious thing to your wife should have been when she received such terrible message that in the quickest way possible she would come herself to help you. Can you make any explanations for the fact that did not happen?
JUDGE BURKE: Just a moment. What is it you are seeking to establish?
DR. HINDEMITH: May it please the Tribunal, the witness has testified that his wife arrived in a car around about eleven o'clock in the morning.
JUDGE BURKE: I think we arc familiar with that. What is it you are attempting to establish?
DR. HINDEMITH: I think it is most unlikely that a wife received such a dreadful message that her husband is heavily wounded, that she let so much time pass before she reaches him. A further thing is that the woman in whose courtyard the witness had found shelter was very worried to get into trouble because the witness was staying there. For that reason she refused to let him into her house. The woman and the other woman herself must have been very interested -
JUDGE BURKE: Pardon me for interrupting you. Isn't that a matter of argument at the appropriate time and place?
DR. HINDEMITH: May it please the Tribunal, the defense has no opportunity since they don't know the locality or the conditions there to make other inquiry with something that can be based on facts to establish its credibility; we therefore have to for the most part assume-for the most part, we have to take as a basis what the witness testifies. I am of the opinion that the testimony has to be evaluated whether from general human experiences point of view if it is likely, credible , and I am of the opinion that various statements which the witness has made here are of such an unlikely nature -- at least, they seem that way to me -that I deem it necessary that the witness get an opportunity to as far as possible remove the unlikelihoods.