BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q.- Now, witness, I asked you -- I don't know whether the answer has come through -- whether you yourself witnessed shootings; that is in the course of the 20th or 21st of October, 1941.
A.- No, I answered that I never saw any killings by myself.
Q.- And, in contradiction to the report of the commission in which the alleged number of 4-5,000 are mentioned, you want to increase that figure to 8,000 without ever having witnessed a shooting yourself?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I object to the form of the question. He is saying that he is contradicting the commission. The record is clear that Dr. Laternser says the commission says 5,000 and that the witness says it was 8,000 and I believe the Tribunal can make any inference they wish to make from it, but I object to Dr. Laternser using the term to him of "contradicting the commission."
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q.- Witness, you further said that the Town Commander -- I think you mentioned the name "Schuster, the town major -- on the 21st of October, with a tank, drove to the spot of the execution.
A.- Yes -- but only one correction. It wasn't the town major. It was the "Ortskommandant."
Q.- And you mean to say that he, on the 21st of October, with an armored car drove to the spot of the execution?
A.- I don't know whether I told on the 21st of October. If I did, it wasn't correct. It should be 22nd of October. I am sorry.
Q.- Did you know the local commander Schuster personally?
A.- No, I didn't know him personally but I have seen him for quite a time. He was a short man, a blonde one.
Q.- Where were you yourself on the 21st, or be it the 22nd of October?
A.- On the 22nd of Octover I was home.
Q.- Didn't you say previously that on the 22nd of Octover you were in a hospital?
A.- No.
Q.- Did you, yourself, see Major Schuster drive in that tank, you are talking about?
A.- No, I didn't see him.
Q.- How can you say that he drove to the spot of the execution in a tank?
A.- I was told about that by the person who was saved by Major Schuster, as I told you before.
Q.- There is one last question I would like to put. Are you free now, are you at liberty?
A.- Yes, right.
Q.- How did it happen then that you are appearing here as a witness? Did you volunteer, or were you requested to come here.
A.- I reported myself as a voluntary witness, and I do not know through what channels that application of mine, went on.
Q.- I did not understand that answer.
A.- I reported myself to witness any German atrocities committed in Kragujevac, and according to this, my statement, I was called presumably by the State Commission. I do not know exactly.
Q.- There is one more point I would like to bring up. Have you ever seen a partisan in uniform?
A.- Yes, when I arrived in Kragujevac, in 1944.
Q.- Would you please describe that uniform, that that partisan you are talking about was wearing?
A.- Mostly it was a British soldier's uniform, battle dress.
Q.- Yes, what color did this uniform have?
A.- The same color as that man sitting here.
Q.- For the purposes of the record, it is a brown color?
A.- Yes, if you want brown.
MR. DENNEY: In order that we do not have Dr. Laternser's eyesight or mine on the record, I am willing to state that the witness pointed to a current uniform of a member of the United States Army which is known technically as "Uniform B; winter; olive drab color", but I object to the use of the term, "brown".
DR. LATERNSER: Did you see any insignia on that uniform?
A.- Yes.
Q.- What kind of insignias were this?
A.- There were lines on the sleeve.
Q.- Did you see several partisans in uniforms?
A.- I have seen a complete brigade of partisans in uniform.
Q.- Did you ask to be strown weapons also?
A.- Yes, twice.
Q.- What kind of weapons were that; German, Serbian, English, American?
A.- And Russian, too.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
DR. HINDEMITH, Alternate for Dr. Rauschenbach.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: I take it you have completed your cross examination, Dr. Laternser?
DR. LATERNSER: Yes.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Counsel, you may speak/
CROSS EXAMINATION
DR. HINDEMITH, Alternate for Dr. Rauschenbach, for defendant Foertsch:
Q.- Your Honor, before I start putting questions I would like to point out what kind these questions should be. I would like to say that the statement of the witness does not seem likely to me in several points.
THE PRESIDENT: You just go ahead and ask the questions you see fit.
To begin with, I would like to put one question which Dr. Laternser has already put, and that is the question whether the testimony of the witness has been put down in writing prior to having been made here;
As I am repeating this question now, I would like to say the following for my reasons to do this. When the afternoon session started the representative of the prosecution summarized the latter statement of the witness, that is he repeated it. When he did that, he said amongst other things, that the witness had declared that he had managed to inform his wife that he was lying in some courtyard and his wife sent him a car.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: I think that we can hasten matters considerably if you will ask any questions that you see fit to ask in the way of cross examination. The matter of explanation of why you are asking the question is not of interest to the Tribunal.
We do not want to limit you in your cross-examination but I suggest that you proceed with it.
DR. HINDEMITH: Your Honor, I am only interested to ascertain from the record whether during the morning the witness had made a testimony to the effect that he managed to get information to his wife, and that she came to the courtyard where he was, in a car.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Then ask him the question.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I think that he is trying to find out whether or not the witness' testimony was overwritten down and handed to him. It was not. I kept a record myself, which I will be very glad to show the court, in my own handwriting. I have never given it to the witness and the Yugoslav representatives in Nurnberg have never prepared any written statement which has been handed to him.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: May I suggest that the witness be interrogated with due respect to both counsel, and we will proceed more rapidly and more expeditiously, if we question the witness and not make any general statements.
DR. HINDEMITH: Very well, Your Honor.
Q.- Witness, what experiences did you make on the basis of the events of the 17th of September and of the 20th of October, in respect to the German authorities?
A.- I had the worst opinion of them.
Q.- You believed then that no fair treatment was to be expected from German authorities?
A.- Later on that is true, but not before that. Before this event, I mean, I didn't think so hard.
Q.- My question was what experiences, what opinion you gained on the experiences of the 20th of September -- 17th of September and 20th of October, is that correct then?
A.- No, not before them.
Q.- On the 20th of October, when you marched from the Artillery Barracks to that place where an execution was to take place, were you the last group that left the barracks, or when you left were there other people left behind?
A.- The first; only our group which was taken away from the artillety barracks; all other people were left in still.
Q.- Was this an action which was carried out rather suddenly?
A.- No, this action did not come quite suddenly.
Q.- Were the name ov the persons taken before they were put on the march?
A.- No, I don't know how they did that.
A.- You yourself had no personal data taken off pf your own person; was there?
A. Yes, they asked me because I was in jail; I was arrested.
Q. On the 17th of September was that, or was it on the 20th of Octeber when they asked you?
A. It was on the 17th of September.
Q. How far was that place where you were led to distant from the town or rather from the artillery barracks?
A. It was about 5 Km.
Q. And you escaped back into town from that place? Is that correct?
A. Yes, to the city.
Q. And on your escape you passed the artillery barracks again -that same artillery barracks from which you were put on the march?
A. No.
Q. But, I seem to remember quite well that you said you passed the artillery barracks; you encountered a guard there.
A. That's right, but it was another artillery barracks in Kragujevacnot the first one; there was another one.
Q. How many artillery barracks are there in Kragujevac?
A. There are two artillery barracks in Kragujevac.
Q. And you went through both those artillery barracks didn't you? I think I understood your testimony to that effect.
A. I was taken into one of them--into the first of the barracks-and the second one I only passed by.
Q. But in the second barracks there were also Serbs under Guard gathered together. Is that correct?
A. No.
Q. I do believe though that you said something else in the morning, but we shall leave it at that. Tell me wasn't it very foolish of you to excape back into Kragujevac on the basis of the experiences with you had made previously -- on the 17th of September, and especially on the 20th of October? You simply had to assume that since the action hadn't been completed that you would be picked up again.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I object to the form of the question, "Wasn't it very foolish of you to escape back into Kragujevac?"
THE PRESIDENT: It is sustained as immaterial.
BY DR. HINDEMITH:
Q. What aim did you have when you went back to Kragujevac?
MR. DENNEY: I object to the question, Your Honor; it's immaterial. --What reason he had to go back to Kragujevac when he had been wounded twice.
THE PRESIDENT: Over-ruled.
DR. HINDEMITH: May I say something in connection with this? ...
THE PRESIDENT: The Court has over-ruled the objection; you may proceed with the cross-examination.
BY DR. HINDEMITH:
Q. Where were you trying to go to in Kragujevac?
A. My aim was only to be alive, to save my life. I was almost killed; I was almost dead already.
Q. The reasons for your excape are perfectly clear and understantable. What I wanted to know is in what locality did you think you'd find shelter.
A. My aim was to reach the very first house--somewhere; and to get some help.
Q. Was the barracks which you passed situated on the outskirts of the city?
A. Yes, it was on the outskirts of Kragujevac.
Q. Now, something else. You were severely wounded by two shots fired by a German soldier, if I understood you correctly.
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And, as a consequence of these wounds, in the beginning you were almost unconscious and our collapsed.
A. No.
Q. Almost unconscious, I said.
A. No, I never lost my consciousness.
Q. How long were you lying there?
A. Because of complete darkness, I can't remember. I can't tell; I lost plenty of blood.
Q. And how and when did you reach that courtyard where you spent the night?
A. I don't know; I can't tell; it was at night; I was wounded.
Q. Well, did you get there with the help of other people, or did you manage to walk or creep there yourself?
A. No, I did it by my self. Nobody helped me. I crawled mostly and spent a long time to reach this first house.
Q. To begin with, you attempted to find shelter in that house, and the woman in the house rejected that because she was afraid to be persecuted by the Germans for that reason.
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. When did you ask the woman to inform your wife?
A. Immediately after my arrival at this house I asked her that.
Q. And when did the woman send the communication to your wife?
A. Early in the morning.
Q. How far is it to your home from the house where you found shelter?
A. It takes about one hour, roughly.
Q. That was on the outskirts of Kragujevac--that courtyard where you were lying, and you yourself lived where? In the city of Kragujevac or some place else?
A. My house was in another part, quite opposite that of Kragujevac.
Q. That is a town of 35,000 inhabitants. If one thinks of our conditions of towns, such a town, in my opinion, can be travelled through from one end of the town to the other, in a much shorter time than one hour. Can you give us an explanation why it took a whole hour from the house where you were lying to your own home? It was merely a small town wasn't it?
A. Yes. Maybe it is so here, but not there in Kragujevac.
Q. Did the woman in whose courtyard you had found shelter give the message to your wife herself?
A. I don't know that.
Q Didn't she say anything about that?
A No, she didn't.
Q And you didn't ask her either?
A It wasn't important for me at that moment who brought this message.
Q I believe that the obvious thing to your wife should have been when she received such terrible message that in the quickest way possible she would come herself to help you. Can you make any explanations for the fact that did not happen?
JUDGE BURKE: Just a moment. What is it you are seeking to establish?
DR. HINDEMITH: May it please the Tribunal, the witness has testified that his wife arrived in a car around about eleven o'clock in the morning.
JUDGE BURKE: I think we arc familiar with that. What is it you are attempting to establish?
DR. HINDEMITH: I think it is most unlikely that a wife received such a dreadful message that her husband is heavily wounded, that she let so much time pass before she reaches him. A further thing is that the woman in whose courtyard the witness had found shelter was very worried to get into trouble because the witness was staying there. For that reason she refused to let him into her house. The woman and the other woman herself must have been very interested -
JUDGE BURKE: Pardon me for interrupting you. Isn't that a matter of argument at the appropriate time and place?
DR. HINDEMITH: May it please the Tribunal, the defense has no opportunity since they don't know the locality or the conditions there to make other inquiry with something that can be based on facts to establish its credibility; we therefore have to for the most part assume-for the most part, we have to take as a basis what the witness testifies. I am of the opinion that the testimony has to be evaluated whether from general human experiences point of view if it is likely, credible , and I am of the opinion that various statements which the witness has made here are of such an unlikely nature -- at least, they seem that way to me -that I deem it necessary that the witness get an opportunity to as far as possible remove the unlikelihoods.
JUDGE BURKE: I would like to refer the matter back to our presiding judge for such action on the individual questions as he desires to make.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with the cross-examination with this suggestion from the Tribunal, however, that you direct your inquiries to the matters which were testified to by the witness and not endeavor to question him as to his interpretation of certain conditions that are disclosed by his testimony. You may proceed.
BY DR. HINDEMITH:
Q Witness, continuing, you then were brought to hospital -- that was when?
A It was on the 21st of October, 1941.
Q I don't mean the day. I mean the time of the day?
A It could be about one o'clock in the afternoon.
Q I think you said before it happened around eleven o'clock because you said you already left the hospital around about twelve.
A No as far as I remember I told you one o'clock.
Q Well, we will leave that. The records can show what you said.
Where you able to walk to the hospital? That is, could you have walked?
A No, I was taken to hospital by a horse-drawn vehicle.
Q And the horse-drawn vehicle -- what did happen to that after you came to the hospital?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I certainly submit it is irrelevant as to what happens to a horse-drawn vehicle after he got to the hospital.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
DR. HINDMITH: May it please the Tribunal, I would like to point out the following. The witness testified that he left the hospital again.
He just told us that he was brought to hospital in a vehicle; on the other hand, he left the hospital because four men of the Serbs Voluntary Organization came there and fetched him.
THE PRESIDENT: You ask him then as to how he left and that will answer our question them.
BY DR. HINDEMITH:
Q You were then fetched from the hospital?
A Yes, that is right.
Q And where were brought to? To the headquarters of the German Secret Field Police, if I remember correctly?
A I was taken from hospital into headquarters of the 4th Serbian Voluntary Battalion.
Q How were you brought there?
A The horse-drawn vehicle.
Q Now a different point. You said that you learned on the 20th or rather on the 21st of October, I don't know, about 1200 people were shot. This fact you assumed from two circumstances: first of all from a placard and then from the rest that were put up on several houses. On these posters, according to you, the people were written by name and you further said that you convinced yourself of the number, that the number of the last victim -- you looked up the number of the last victim. Is that correct?
A No, you didn't understand me quite.
Q Will you please tell us then how it is correct?
A I told only that the first day I left my house and went to the GFP headquarters I saw a poster in a shop with a long list of names. The poster was telling that 1200 people have been shot because 12 German soldiers were killed somewhere in the vicinity of Kraljevo. That is what I told you.
Q That was about 20 days after that that you read that, is that right? That you saw that poster? When was that?
A I don't know when this poster was put in. I didn't get out from my house for 20 days.
Q Another question. They you were dismissed and you were allowed to return to your home?
A Yes, that is right.
Q Then you were ordered immediately after you had got well you had to report to the Field Police and if I understood you correctly that your daughter should give a message to that effect to the Field Police. Is that correct?
A Yes, that is true.
Q And you did comply with this order which was given to you?
A No, I didn't.
Q But you said that you did go to the secret police or to some other authorities and that the question of your further employment was clerified later?
A Yes, that is true.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will stand adjourned at this time until nine-thirty tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 31 July 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Wilhelm List, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 31 July 1947, 0930, Justice Wennerstrum presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you will ascertain if all the defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honors, all the defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Burke, my associate, will preside at this day's session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, we were having cross examination yesterday by the counsel for the defendant Foertsch who I believe was Dr. Hindemith acting for the absent Dr. Rauschenbach, and there has been no expression to the Court that that cross examination has been concluded; and I notice at the microphone counsel for another defendant, and I would appreciate an expression from counsel who through his representative was cross examining the witness for the record.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The Tribunal will appreciate such a statement.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH (Counsel for defendant Foertsch): I have no further questions to put to the witness, President. I believe that one of the other defense counsel would like to further cross examine the witness.
DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the defendant von Geitner): I have a few short questions to put to the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SAUTER:Q.- You told us yesterday that in 1944 you met Serb partisans.
In the previous years, 1943 or 1942, did you never in those years encounter any partisans?
A.- I had never met with any partisans until 1941. It was on the 20th of October.
Q.- 1944, was that?
A.- Yes, that's right.
Q.- And during the whole previous time of war, did you never meet any partisans in Kragujevac? Surely there were plenty of people who belonged to the partisans.
A.- No, never.
Q.- In these previous years, before October 1944, did you hear of any Jugoslav partisans against German forces? Did you hear nothing about that before October 1944?
A.- Yes, I have heard. I have heard about some fights, somewhere pretty far from Kragujevac.
Q.- Before October 1944, for instance -- let's say in 1943 or 1942 -did you hear that German soldiers down there in your neighborhood were killed by Jugoslav partisans -- that is, before 1944?
A.- Yes, I heard there were about 20 German soldiers killed by partisans in the vicinity of Vroni-Milanovac -- that's about 40 kilometers from Kragujevac.
Q.- Was that the only case, those 20 soldiers? Was that the only case that you heard of before October 1944 where German soldiers were killed by partisans; or isn't it correct -- I would like to add that -- isn't it correct that such cases down there in Kragujevac occurred quite frequently and were talked about amongst the civilian population and were known to them?
A.- No, I never heard anything else. I would like to make a correction.
I didn't mean to tell 20 soldiers, but 12 soldiers.
Q.- Didn't you hear anything about, in the time period before October 1944, that repeated numerous sabotage acts occurred against the German Wehrmacht -- for instance, attacks against railways lines, robbings -lootings and robbings of magazines, etc. Didn't you have about that in Kragujevac?
A.- No, I never heard that. I was sick and just was getting out in order to reach my office where I was working and from my office I went usually immediately home.
Q.- You didn't read anything either about attacks against the Serbian civilian population or posters by the German authorities which mentioned that certain attacks had occurred against the German Wehrmacht and that the German Administration would make ruthless measures against such attacks? Did you never read such posters in Kragujevac?
A.- No, I have never seen these posters and I would like to emphasize that I wasn't feeling well. I was concerned with my own business, and, in addition to that, my wife was sick, so I had plenty to do in my home. I wasn't interested in these things.
Q.- Witness, I have to remind you that today, too, you are under oath. I think it is incredible that during the years 1942 and 1943 you were ill all of the time, that as a Serbian National you weren't interested in those matters. I can't believe that and, therefore, I have to ask you really maintain this under oath that during the whole years of 1942 and 1943 you heard nothing about these things, not even from Serbian compatriots -
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I object to Dr. Sauter's arguing with the witness.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The objection is sustained.
Q.- Witness, when you heard in 1944, as you say, that German soldiers were killed, what were you told about the partisans in which manner were these soldiers being killed, these German soldiers?
A.- I have heard from some individual partisans that some German soldiers had been killed but in which way this happened I don't know.
Q.- Did you hear of such a case in 1944, as you say? Did you hear about such a case only once or several times where German soldiers were killed by partisans?
A.- I have heard that from several persons. I do not know whether it is true or not.
Q.- Did you try to gather information about how many German soldiers that might have been?
A.- No, that wasn't the business of my concern.
Q.- You were not interested in that?
A.- No.
Q.- You weren't interested in who ordered the killing of these German soldiers, and -- whether it was an officer of the partisans or a court, who ordered that.
A.- I got the impression this was just talks about some soldiers by some partisans, but maybe it is true. I don't know.
Q.- But before you told us that you heard about these things from various sides, at least that is what the translation brought out. This wasn't just talk and gossip by one partisans. Several people must have talked about it.
A.- I heard that from several persons, and I remember very well I heard it this way from several individuals.
Q.- And you didn't know whether that was mere gossip?
A.- I don't know. I had heard it.
Q.- But you did hear of the shootings of the 8,000 Serbians which you told the court about. You know about those shootings. Was that mere gossip, or was that a fact? How did you know that?
A.- About 8,000 people who were killed in 1941, there are plenty of documents testifying to that, and there are still the ditches where the corpses of these people are lying.
Q.- But just previously you told us you were so sick all of the time and your wife also that you could not possibly be interested in all of the things that went on. How then do you know now that there are documents? Did you see those documents in existence? Did you see those documents in spite of your illness or how did you know that and since when?
A.- Now I am not sick any more, and the place -
DR. SAUTER: Now you are not sick any more?
A.- The population is going there, it is a religious place now in Kragujevac.
Q.- Witness, what then did your partisans tell you why the German soldiers were being killed or hanged? What reasons did they give you?
A.- I didn't hear that from partisans. I saw this poster, with my own eyes at the first time I left my home and went to the building myself, to GFP. I saw the poster with 1200 names.
Q.- I believe, witness, you misunderstand my question. Yesterday you told us, and today you confirmed it, that you heard from partisans that captured German soldiers were killed, and now I would like to hear from you what did the partisans tell you; for what reason were the German soldiers killed by the partisans? I only want to know the reason, nothing else.
A.- I don't know this.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I suggest that he establish whether or not he was given any reasons, assuming reasons were given him, as to whether or not these Germans were killed. He assumes that he was given reasons. He can ask him, and if he tels him "yes" he can inquire.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: He has given the comprehensive answer that he does not know. Proceed.
Q.- Witness, today you say you do not know the reason, but yesterday you did give the reason. I put this question, in order to find out how far your answers are credible. Please employ your memory and tell us what the reason was why those German soldiers were shot. I just remind you, you said yesterday the German soldiers were taken away when they had fallen in battle, by the partisans and others again were killed. Now I want to know from you, - and that is on your oath, - what reasons were you being told why those soldiers were killed?
A.- I told yesterday that there were some cases, - that is to say, I heard about some of these cases, that this was depending on the military situation, that is to say, if there was possibly time to take these captured German soldiers into the rear zone the partisans did take them, but sometimes it was not possible, the soldiers were killed.
DR. SAUTER: Your Honor, I have no further questions to put to the witness, I think.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Do I understand that counsel terminated his examination at the conclusion of yesterday's session, and there is no further examination?
DR. RAUSCHENBACH (For Defendant Foertsch): When the session started I had already mentioned that the cross-examination which was started yesterday by my assistant is considered finished. There are no further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
MR. DENNEY: May it please your Honors, we have no further questions to put to the witness and if there are no questions by the court, I request that the witness and Mr. Targoni be excused, unless there are further questions by the defense.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The members of the Tribunal have indicated that they have no questions.
The witness may be excused.
MR. DENNEY: Thank you, your Honor, Mr. Fenstermacher will proceed with document book 13.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Proceed, Mr. Fenstermacher.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honors will recall with the introduction of Documents in Document Book 13, we are concerned with the final period, from the staff end, and the number of defendants involved, it is the most important period in this case, - that is, the period from August 1944 until October 1944, when the German troops withdrew from Greece and Yugoslavia.