A. Yes, it was quite usual. It was a common case. There couldn't be seen almost a house without this black flag.
Q. Now, did you ever -- had you ever heard of a Captain Bischofshausen?
A. No, never.
Q. Did you know who was the town major of Kragujevac?
A. Yes, I used to know one by the name of Schuster.
Q. Well, did you hear anything - did you know anything - about the activities of the town major at this time?
A. Yes, I know that he was the town major that time, which was before the 21st of October. In the same group with me there was another man. The town major the very next day went out in a tank to the place of execution and the noise of the motor woke up this man who was lying on the ground unconscious. The town major saw this man still living, looked around, and, because nobody from the Germans was near in the vicinity, he dragged this man into the tank, took him to the headquarters and kept him about seven days there, fed him well, and then sent him home.
Q. Did you ever the name "Major Koenig"?
A. I have heard the name of Major Koenig later, afterward, and I learned that Major Koenig was the same tall German officer who arrived at the artillery barracks when I was sitting down on the ground, and Major Koenig was the person who gave the orders and who indicated the places, the points, where the shooting took place the following day. I learned that afterwards.
Q. And so far as you know, the troops that performed these executions were not troops who were regularly stationed in Kragujevac?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, will you watch and endeavor not to ask leading questions, if possible?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors please, thank you.
A. No, the soldiers of the Kragujevac garrison participated in this special action but everybody, even the town major of Kragujevac, was subordinated to Major Koenig during this time. That's what I learned afterwards.
Q. Did you ever learn how many people were executed in Kragujevac?
A. Yes, I can tell you that. About 8,000.
MR. DENNEY: You may inquire.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, may I first of all ask in what manner we are going to have translations into these several languages--
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't get the inquiry, Doctor.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, I have asked how the translation is going to take place. Will my question put in German be translated into the Serbian language from English into Serbian or will my German question at once be translated into Serbian?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, Mr. Targoni advises me that he understands German sufficiently to translate from German into Serbian. He is familiar with the German written and spoken word, the first as he reads it and, of course, the latter as hears it. However, he feels that it is better if he translates from Serbian back into English, and if that's agreeable with Dr. Laternser, I see no objection -- I suggest that it be handled in that manner because that saves one translation each way.
THE PRESIDENT: That will be agreeable with the Tribunal if it is satisfactory to counsel.
DR. LATERNSER: I agree to this.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. How long have you been in Nuernberg?
A. This is the first day I'm here.
Q. Did you arrive yesterday or today?
A. No, it was the day before yesterday.
Q. You just said that you were here for the first day.
A. That isn't right. It is possible that I told that.
DR. LATERNSER: I would like to draw your attention that you are under oath also as regards to the answering of my questions.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I object to Dr. Laternser's inference, and I object to his arguing with the witness.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Sustained.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, I would like to make my position clear as regards the ruling of this court. I am justified in putting them questions in cross examination. In cross-examination every kind of questions can be put, also leading questions. However the prosecution may not do so in that type of examination.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: The statement is quite correct, Dr. Laternser, but I see no occasion for any inference at this time that the witness is not telling the truth or that he is not conscious of the fact that he is under oath.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I did not say that he was telling the untruth. I reminded him of the fact that he should be very careful in the answering of my questions too.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: You may proceed.
DR. LATERNSER: Witness, I ask again, therefore, how long have you been in Nurnberg?
A. The witness is sorry but he arrived exactly on 28 July at 1730 in the afternoon.
Q. With whom did you talk in the meantime? During this time?
A. In order to talk to the men of the Yugoslav Delegation, he talked to Mr. Denney, I was present too, (meaning the interpreter(; there was another man I cannot remember his name. I believe it was one of the members of the prosecution staff.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors, the person of whom he is speaking is Mr. Fenstermacher, of the prosecution staff, who was in my office for a portion of the time that we discussed the testimony of the witness, and I believe that Mr. Rapp came in once for a period of perhaps five minutes or so.
I am not sure the witness say him.
DR. LATERNSER: Your evidence today was probably discussed at this occasion?
A. Yes, that's true.
Q. Was your evidence fixed in writing?
A. No.
Q. Were documents submitted to you?
A. No.
Q. There were documents presented to you?
A. No documents, but especially one thing was emphasized, that is to say, that in the course during the interrogation, I have to say only what I say myself, with my own eyes, and what I heard afterwards, that I should not tell, that is later on, only what I have seen with my own eyes.
Q. Witness, were you not shown a report which the Yugoslav Commission made about the things that happened in Kregujevac?
A. Yes, I saw the document.
Q. You said before that no documents were shown you.
A. This one is not a document; it is my testimony given in my own country, YUGOSLAVIA, its my own testimony.
Q. Which testimony.
A. Yes, it it my statement, my testimony given in Yugo Slavia, what happened to me on the day of 21 of October, 1941.
Q. You had not given testimony about that in Yugo Slavia, already had you?
A. Yes.
Q. Was only that testimony submitted to you or was the report of the Yugoslav Commission also submitted to you, as I asked you before?
A. I do not know anything about some other documents.
Q. You still live in Kragujevac?
A. Yes, now too.
Q. And during which time wore you active for the German occupation authorities at that place?
A. I cannot remember exactly well, but I started my job for the German occupation forces almost immediately after the occupation was completed, and I held this job until the 17 September when I was arrested.
Q. Did you get pay for your work?
A. Yes, I was paid.
Q. Did you also get subsistence?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever have any claim to holidays?
A. No, it was a short period I was working for Germans.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I do not want to limit Dr. Laternser, there is no charge that the man was not paid, or that he worked involuntarily or anything else, and I submit there are better ways of testing his power to recollect ehan whether or not he worked there, and whether they paid Aim or fed him.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Overruled.
DR. LATERNSER:
Q. How were you treated by the Germans while working for them? I am talking about the time until your arrest.
A. I was treated in a courteous way and enjoyed their confidence,
Q. In September 1941, as you said, you were arrested?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. You said that two or three armed soldiers-- that you were arrested by two or three armed soldiers?
A. Yes, and they had insignia, "GFP", on their shoulders.
Q. Witness, what does GFP stand for?
A. I don't know.
Q. Now I want to tell you what it stands for. It stands for "Secret Field Police".
Do you believe-- really belived,-- that a secret police would show his insignia openly? In that all of the secret police would be recognized at once?
A. I don't know.
Q. Are you quite sure that you saw those insignia, or is it possible that you arc in error.?
A. No, I am quite sure that I have seen this insignia and I even say a sign with an arrow showing the direction to the building, "GFP" also "GFP" shown on this sign.
Q. Would you kindly repeat this. I do not quite understand it.
A. I am quite sure that I have seen this insignia, not only on the soldiers' shoulder patches, the same insignias were worn by officers, and on the door of the office when I was interrogated there was in light blue glass the letters "GFP", written in a black color.
Q. You were then arrested by these people. What was your interrogation about?
A. I was arrested by these people, yes, and interrogations took place on the 2nd floor of the same building bearing the sign GFP.
Q. And what were you interrogated about? About what subject?
A. The matter of the interrogation was that I am a member of the illegal underground organization, and they tried to get my answer in the positive.
Q. You were not a member of the partisans or the underground movements?
A. No, never.
Q. Why were you not a member of the partisan movement?
A. Well, I was good Serbian. I couldn't tell that while there were Germans around. Being a poor man, and bearing on my shoulders my mother, my wife and my child, I had to take care about all of these people. To be a partisan meant to leave the house and my folks and go sough to the mountains to fight. I felt too weak for that.
Q. Witness, you probably also did not do it because you did not think it right to do anything against the occupation forces?
A Well, there was a period of time when I was working in the Military Technical Branch in Kragujevac. I had a pretty good life, that is to say, everything was taken care of. I didn't think whether it would be loyal or not to German occupation authorities if I joined the partisans, but later on when I was treated in such a brutal way and was wounded twice; I scared the Germans, that's true; but I didn't join partisans at this time because I was too weak. After two wounds I couldn't do that.
Q Witness, the question which I'm putting to you refer to the time until your arrest. Did you think it right that fellow countrymen of yours were shooting Germans from ambush? What did you think about that?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, there is no evidence that this witness knows anything about fellow countrymen shooting Germans from ambush. And I don't think it's a proper matter of inquiry. Further, it probes the witness's the operations of his mind - in matters with which we are not here concerned.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, may I make my attitude plain in regard to this. Witness, I had asked you whether at that time and for what reason you refused to join the partisans, because the partisans shot Germans from ambush.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor pleases, he's asking the same question that Your Honor just sustained the opposition to.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, did you ever talk with partisans--that is, fellow countrymen of yours who were members of those bands.
A No, never, until 1944.
Q Until 1944 you did not talk to partisans, if I understood you rightly?
A No, I had no opportunity for that.
Q And after 1944 did you then talk to the partisans?
A Yes, I did, but only when the defense arrived, not like bands, but like a regular army.
MR. DENNEY: I have no objection to Dr. Laternser's going into the 1944 period if he desires to make him his own witness. This testimony has definitely been limited to the period prior to April 1941, except for explanatory matter and some time within a few months after October, 1941.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I have never heard--now for the first time--that a witness may only testify about a certain period of time, and that the Defense Counsel in cross-examination must be confined only to put questions about this period of time. I must have the opportunity to question the witness quite freely and this is also in conformity with the American rules of procedure, either for fact or for investigating the question, regarding the credibility of the witness. For this reason, I cannot see how this objection can be sustained.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is over-ruled.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, I had just asked you whether after 1944 you had talked with partisans.
A Yes, certainly, I had.
Q What did they tell you regarding the manner in which they fought the Germans? They probably were proud of that, I take it.
A It's historical; it's what everybody in Yugoslavia talks about right now, and I can't tell it in several words.
Q Yes, I understand that. For that reason I will ask something more pointed. What did the partisans tell you personally how they treated tho German prisoners?
A It was according to the military situation. Sometimes when it was just to take the prisoners back into the rear zone, they took them but sometimes they killed them.
Q And they told you that?
A Yes.
Q Did they also tell you the kind of orders they had from Marshal Tito regarding the treatment of such German prisoners?
A I am not acquainted with this problem.
Q Did they tell you the kind of weapons they had and from whom they got these weapons?
A Yes, they did--some of them. They told me that they got their arms and weapons from the Germans, from the killed Germans.
Q Did they also tell you that at night English and American planes --English planes came overhead at night and threw arms and ammunition down?
A Yes, you are right. That's what I told before. It pertained to the first period of the fight, but later on they were supplied, and very richly supplied, by allies because they were recognized as a regular army.
Q You say they were recognized as a regular army. By whom were they recognized as a regular army?
A That's what I have heard. The partisans were recognized by the Allies as a regular army, and besides they even--the German authorities--made sometimes the exchange of prisoners. That is to say, unofficially the German army recognized this unit as an army.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, Dr. Laternser. It occurs to the Tribunal that even though we want to be very liberal in our rulings on cross-examination, that we are getting quite far afield from anything which might have any bearing upon this witness's interest or his credibility. I suggest that we refer to the matters which are at hand-the original testimony of the witness which has heretofore been presented.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q We have rather strayed, Witness. I asked you what you were interrogated about after your first arrest. You said then whether you were a member of the partisans or not. And one question you have not yet answered--I asked you did you also not join the partisans because you looked upon it as not right that the occupational forces were shot at from ambush.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, why he did not join the Party of the Cetniks, the witness has said he didn't. I think it inquires into the operations of the witness's mind, matters which are not under consideration here.
THE PRESIDENT: Over-ruled.
Q Then, I should like to ask you to translate the question in order that the witness may answer it. (Statement to Interpreter Targoni).
A So far as I remember, I gave a quite clear answer to this question. I told you that what concerned the first period of my job in the Military Technical Branch. I didn't think about joining partisans because I had been taken care of. My family was all right, and I was hesitant to leave this job and join the partisans. I didn't concern myself with the problems of whether it would be loyal or not. So I believe that later on, after what happened to me on the 21st of October 1941, I would join partisans because I hated the Germans; but I couldn't do that because of my physical condition.
Court No. V, Case No. VII
Q. What did one have to fear if one was caught as a partisan?
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, it has been established that the man was never in the partisans. I don't know how he could tell what one could fear from an organization of which he was never a member.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY LATERNSER:
Q. Did you in Kragujevac see any posters which were made by the Germans?
A. Yes. I saw some people killed from the same group I was on the 21st of October, 1941. Later on, I saw a man hanged on the street in Kragujevac and I know one shop keeper who was killed too.
Q. I am afraid you have not understood me correctly. I did not mean attacks. I mean posters. I mean posters on walls. Did you see any of those?
A. Yes, I have seen these posters but the very first day I left my home and went to the building of GFP. I saw this poster in the window of a shop. It was written that because 12 German soldiers were killed in the vicinity of Kraljevo, 1200 people in Kragujevac have been shot. There was a longer list of names and last of the numbers was 1200.
Q. Yes, you have already said that. Did you ever see a poster on which it said who was taking active part in the activities of the partisans will be shot? Did you ever read anything of this kind?
A. Yes. Even such notices I signed when I started my job in the Military Technical Branch in Kragujevac.
Q. Yes. Now witness, you were unfortunately arrested beginning after December 1941. You said you were taken to a prison after being interrogated?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Yes, and you said that you were put into a cell which was two meters by 70 centimeters and did not have any windows?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. What is the prison in question?
A. It was the Serbian Police Jail in Kragujevac.
Q. Who had built this prison? Did the Germans build this prison?
A. No
Q. Well, who had built it then?
A. This building was built up by the former Yugoslavian State. It is an old building.
Q. You said, however, that on October 20 you were taken away by armed soldiers?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. And you said further that all those who were taken away from this prison were taken into a courtyard.
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. First of all, in this prison, did you know all the persons which you saw in this courtyard?
A. No.
Q. Witness, well how did you come to say that all these people were Serbs?
A. Well, I realized it afterwards. I have heard it afterwards. Then I would like to repeat that I told the Court that there were Serbians but one. This last one was a Jew.
DR. LATERNSER: The translation isn't coming through.
THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps we should see if the mechanical matters are coming through all right. We will test it out momentarily.
We will take our recess at this time.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: You may proceed with the crossexamination.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Mr. Witness, you said that in the first prison you were until the 20th of October?
A Yes.
Q Why were you fetched away from there?
A I was taken from this jail the 9th of October because on this day there was a special action going on in Kragujevac and I, together with all other jail persons, was taken away from the jail.
Q What do you mean by special action? Do you know in particular whether during those days around about Kragujevac there were hard fights between the German troops and the partisans?
A No, I never saw that in the vicinity of Kragujevac. There were some fights about 40 kilometers away from Kragujevac by a town named Milanovac and there were some killed German soldiers brought to Kragujevac later on.
Q Mr. Witness, I have here a communication from the Serbian Commission for the Investigation of Crimes of the former occupation troops and in this report of this government Commission it says that in October 1941 in the surroundings of Kragujevac there were bitter fights taking place.
A I don't know anything about that.
Q Have you heard anything about it, that there were bitter fights in the neighborhood around Kragujevac, in October 1941?
A No, I never knew about it.
Q Can you somehow explain then how this Commission came about to report such bitter fights in that neighborhood.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honor please, Dr. Laternser is now trying to probe the minds of the people who are not here, of the Commission of which this witness was not a member; he was in jail. It has been submitted both in cross and on direct from the 17th of September to the 20th and he has said he doesn't know anything about it and I object to the question.
PRESIDING JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Sustained.
Court No. V, Case No. VII
Q. Where was the prison where you were located, was it located in Kragujevac or in the outskirts or outside of town?
A. I never was in Kragujevac in jail. It was about the middle of the town, in the center of the town.
Q. Did you while you were under arrest in this prison at any time, did you hear any noise of battle, did you hear shots so that you could assume that there were bitter fights going on in that neighborhood?
A. There were a couple of firings, but there no fight.
Q. You said, that then on the 21st you were taken away from the prison and in a march led to the main highway?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Can you then describe to the Tribunal how this march was carried out, and did you have to go in close formation or were you allowed to march wider spread?
A. We were all in a column three and three.
Q. And in close formation or in wide formation, were there any guards or no guards?
A. We have been escorted by about 25 of the German armed soldiers.
Q. Would you like to look at this picture, please, and tell me whether that was taken on the occasion of that particular march we are discussing?
A. Yes, this is a building which we passed, which we entered after the end of our march.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, I think for the purposes of the record some references should be made to the number of the picture and the exhibit.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, it is Exhibit 100-B-23. I have the original here. Perhaps the witness would like to see that.
Q. I am showing the witness the original so that he can see it a little closer?
A. Yes, this picture is a bit better. The same kind of groups that come before mine and afterwards. Something like that should be my group too.
Q. And when was that, on what day?
A. It happened on the 20th of October 1941.
Q. On the 20th of October 1941, you said?
A. Yes, on the 20th of October.
Q. You said you were then led into a court yard which was near the artillery barracks, how many persons were in this courtyard at this time?
A. When I arrived there, there were about thousand.
Q. How did you know that there were about a thousand people?
A. There were about a thousand I mean.
Q. You yourself didn't count them, did you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. That is merely a guess, is it?
A. Yes, I guess so.
Q. As you further said later you together with other groups were led into another barracks by German soldiers?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor, please, that was not his testimony. He said he was taken out of one artillery barracks kaserne and by another one. He did not say he was taken into another one. It may have come over improperly in the German.
MR. LATERNSER: That is why I asked him, to clarify the matter. These kind of questions are certainly admissible.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will be able to take care of himself, I am quite certain.
Q. Please, would you translate the question then so it can be answered; where were you led from this barracks?
A. We were taken by the barracks to a workers settlement outside Kragujevac, and then to a field outside of Kragujevac.
Q. And who was there when you arrived there?
A. There was a German officer there, and there being some bodies lying around on the ground in the vicinity of this officer. I couldn't see that really, because it was about 200 meters from me.
Q. Didn't you say before--maybe I misunderstood you, that it was already dark.
A. That is true. It wag pretty dark, and apart from that there was a difference of about 200 meters, but it wasn't completely dark.
Q. And at that opportunity that was when you escaped?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Then you had a contact with two guards and one of these guards wounded you twice by shots?
A. That is right.
Q. When were you bandaged the first time?
A. On the next day about 12 o'clock.
Q. You mean around 12 o'clock noon?
A. Yes, at mid-day.
Q. And who bandaged you?
A. There was a hospital, a physician of the hospital who bandaged my wounds.
Q. Do you really mean to say that only on the next day around 12 o'clock you were bandaged for the first time?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. How did you manage that the wound stopped bleeding?
A. I don't know, but I lost plenty of blood and the scars could be seen on my body even now.
Q.- So you were then asked how many inhabitants of Kragujevac were shot in October 1941, you named the number "8,000".
A.- Yes, I talked about 8,000 people.
Q.- Who gave you that figure?
A.- First I learned it from our priests.
Q.- And where else did you hear any thing about it?
A.- Everybody knew that in Kragujevac. It was a matter of common knowledge.
Q.- Next, witness, I would like now to show you Document 100a, where the Serbian Commission ascertains or believes that in an ascertain 5,00 people were shot or allegedly shot. Are you still maintaining that 8,000 people were shot after the official commission believed that only 4-5,000 people were shot?
A.- I don't know anything about this official report of the Jugoslavian State Commission. I know exactly well that people in Kragujevac thought there were about 8,000. I have heard that from priests who counted the number of the victims according to the meals brought in the church; according to Serbian custom, for everybody was prepared a special meal and brought into church for every person.
Q.- Did you yourself witness shootings?
A.- No, I haven't seen any.
Q.- How can you say then that 8,000 people were shot?
DR. LATERNSER: I am just being told that the transmission doesn't come through properly.
DR. HINDEMITH (Alternate for Dr. Rauschenbach, counsel for the defendant Foertsch): I have doubts on the correctness of the transmission of the interpreter. Dr. Laternser asked: "Did you yourself witness shootings?" According to my knowledge of the Slav language -- I know polish -- this question, by adding one word "micno" would be quite different. According to my knowledge, "micno" means "numerous" -- "Did you witness numerous shootings?"
That , in my opinion, would not comply with the duties of an interpreter if, by such an addition, the question is not properly expressed.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court first wishes to ascertain as to whether or not the German translation is coming through to the German defendants and German Counsel.
I think that answers the first inquiry of the counsel.
The next matter to be considered is as to the interrogation of the witness, or the interpreter, as to the statements made by him.
I take it that the cross examination should not be carried on by more than one counsel. I would suggest you permit Dr. Laternser to interrogate the witness on that point.
DR. HINDEMITH: I apologize, Mr. President. I only wanted to ascertain that the translation by the interpreter was correct. We get the impression that the transmission of the interpreting is not correct. This is not the first case that I notice the discrepancy. I remember when the examination first started the witness was being asked who interrogated him on the 17th of September when he was being collected. The witness designated the officer as "Porushnik". "Porushnik" corresponds to the Polish word "Porushnik." That means "Lieutenant." The interpreter transmitted "Captain." If one compares the record, this could be easily ascertained. There was, therefore, a discrepancy durint the examination of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me. May I suggest -- repeating -- may I suggest that you make a note of this matter and hand it to Dr. Laternser or confer with him concerning this matter so that he may carry on the examination? We cannot have it carried on by two parties.
DR. HINDEMITH: Very well, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I might add that if counsel wishes to take a little time to confer with Dr. Laternser, the Tribunal will give him that op portunity; but I do not think that we should be interrupted and have the matter handled by two persons.