They surrounded our group and took us out in the courtyard.
Q Where did you go?
A We started our march to the outskirts of Kragujevac into the direction of another artillery barracks in Kragujevac.
We didn't enter into the courtyard of this other artillery barrack but we continued our march for about 200 more meters. At that moment, I saw a short German officer running towards our column and shouting in Serbian "Stoj"--that is to say, "stop."
MR. DENNEY: And if your Honors please, I believe we recall a document which had the word "Stoj" that equals "halt" in it. Continue.
MR. JOVANOVIC: In the vicinity of this German officer, I could see some bodies lying around but it was a bit darl so one couldn't recognize well the people lying on the ground.
MR. DENNEY: What did you do then?
MR. JOVANOVIC: Because I had seen these people lying around on the ground, I realized that we had to be shot and I decided to escape. I got out from the columns and started to run in the direction which is near Kragujevac. I was running away and I heard a general shooting behind me. Running away from the group, I passed a German guard who was staying on the gate leading to the artillery barracks.
MR. DENNEY: And then what did you do?
MR. JOVANOVIC: Running away, I passed this guard and entered into the first courtyard, the first house in the outskirts of Kragujevac. I jumped over the fence and entered the second house and jumped over some more fences.
MR. DENNEY: Then what happened?
MR. JOVANOVIC: There was another man running away from the group, together with me. I couldn't see him but when I reached the first fence I saw this man on the left side from me. I jumped over some more fences and getting out from the last courtyard, I ran into another German guard.
MR. DENNEY: What did you do then?
MR. JOVANOVIC: I stopped and recollecting several German words I knew, I begged of him not to kill me and explained to him that I had a mother, a wife, and a child.
MR. DENNEY: What did he do?
MR. JOVANOVIC: He asked me only whether I belonged to the upper group of people.
MR. DENNEY: What did you say?
MR. JOVANOVIC: I answered that I was in this group.
MR. DENNEY: Did you know what the upper group was?
MR. JOVANOVIC: Yes, I did. I realized that this German guard was asking whether I was in the column who was led by Germans to the shooting place.
MR. DENNEY: Then what happened?
MR. JOVANOVIC: He took me by the sleeve and led me into the direction of the place from which I had run away. He told me "Vorwaerts." He took me along a small street leading to the same place where I started my escape.
MR. DENNEY: And did you run into somebody on the way back?
MR. JOVANOVIC: When we reached the first guard which I passed in my running away, this guard gave a sign to the guard escorting me to get away. This first guard wanted to shoot at me but the guard who was escorting me didn't want to get away but shot himself. He wounded me in the back in the left side. The bullet came out in the front side.
MR. DENNEY: Then what happened?
MR. JOVANOVIC: I fell down but didn't lose consciousness. I heard some talks. I couldn't understand all but I understood that the guard who shot me asked for a pistol from the second guard. This one not having a pistol - because this one did not have a pistol the guard who shot me once shot at me the second time.
MR. DENNEY: Where did he shoot you the second time when you were lying down?
MR. JOVANOVIC: He shot me at the left side of my back. The bullet went out from this part (indicating on upper chest just below shoulder); it scratched my cheek and wounded me in the middle finger on the left hand.
MR. DENNEY: And then what happened?
MR. JOVANOVIC: I realized that there was immediate danger of being killed.
I concentrated all my power to remain still and not to show any signs of life. I heard some talks between these two German guards. I couldn't understand everything but I understood very well one word I have heard clearly, "Fertig." I understood they considered me killed and I felt much easier after that.
MR. DENNEY: You never lost consciousness?
MR. JOVANOVIC: No, never. I was always conscious.
MR. DENNEY: And later did you succeed in getting away?
MR. JOVANOVIC: Yes, I left this place. I couldn't tell how long I stayed there but it was night when I left this spot.
MR. DENNEY: And how far did you go?
MR. JOVANOVIC: I stayed in this place up until late at night and then more crawling than walking I left this place and went about three kilometers far from it. It took me more than two hours.
MR. DENNEY: And did you come to a house?
MR. JOVANOVIC: I went to the first house on the outskirts of Kragujevac, this house belonged to a woman whom I used to know. I asked her to let me in but she wouldn't accept me so I stayed in the open in the courtyard of this house.
MR. DENNEY: Did you ask the woman to do anything for you in addition to letting you in?
MR. JOVANOVIC: Yes. I asked for help but she didn't dare to do that because she was afraid of Germans. Finally I succeeded to persuade her to inform my wife and she did it early in the morning.
MR. DENNEY: Now, in the morning-
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, Mr. Denney, we will adjourn at this time until one-thirty.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHALL: The persons in the court room will be seated.
The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Pardon me a minute, Mr. Denney. May I say to the defendants, if the weather conditions are such that they are exceedingly warm if they want to unbutton their coats it is their privilege and the court will take no exception to it. If you wish to change your tightened garb in which you came to the court room during this warm weather the court will not take any exceptions to your changing from your present uniform to something which will be more in keeping with the type of weather that we are now having. That may be worked out by you and your counsel. As I understand it the Prosecution has no objection and the Tribunal certainly does not have any objection. You may proceed.
WITNESS YOVANOVIC -resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. DENNEY:
Q If you Honors please: Witness, we had reached the point int your testimony where you had gone to a house, asked the person residing in that house to call your wife back or remain outside the house. Did you spend the balance of the night outside the house?
A Yes, I spent the night outside in the courtyard.
Q What happened in the morning?
A In the morning I can't tell exactly what time was it or how late was it, but I believe it was about six o'clock in the morning I had firing on the other end of Kragujevac. At the same time I heard rifles screaming, coming from the city.
Q The screaming and firing lasted for how long?
A I have heard that until about 11 o'clock in the morning and how long was it later I don't know because at that time I was taken already by horse-drawn vehicle to a hospital.
Q This firing, what did it sound like? Was it heavy artillery firing, large field pieces, canons, or was it small arms fire?
A It was mostly shooting from rifles, usually infantry rifles.
Q Was the firing constant, did it go on all the time or was it sporadic? Did you hear some and it stopped and then started again?
A It was almost constantly up until 11 O'clock.
Q Now, what happened which caused you to leave this place by the house where you spent the night; you said a horse-drawn vehicle came and took you away.
A I asked the woman from the house where I spent the night outside, still in the night time, that she should inform my wife about what happened to me so she did in the morning and my wife arrived with the horse-drawn vehicle and took me to the hospital.
Q How long were you at the hospital?
A I spent in the hospital about one hour.
Q How long did it take you to go from the place where your wife picked you up with the horse cart, to the hospital?
A It would be about one hour.
Q And did you see anybody in the hospital?
A I have seen at the hospital doctors and some patients.
Q Did you see anybody else?
A Later on, about an hour from there, there came about four soldiers from the Serbian Voluntary Battalion and they took me away from the hospital imputing to me that I was the person who fired some rifle on the soldiers during last night.
Q These were Serbian soldiers?
A Yes, they were Serbian soldiers.
Q Serbian soldiers who were serving with the Germans?
A They were the soldiers belong to the Fourth Voluntary Battalion Serbian under the Command of Marica Petrovic in relation with Germans.
Q That is spelled M-A-R-I-C-A- P-E-T-R-O-V-I-C. Then where did they take you.
A They took me away imputing that I was the person who fired some shots on them during the last night but it was impossible because the last night I was wounded and laying on the ground outside of the house at Kragujevac.
Q Witness, you must pay attention to the questions, and to what I say. I asked you where did they take you. Please pay attention and try to make your answers responsive.
A They took me from the hospital to their headquarters.
Q The headquarters of the Fourth Serbian Voluntary Battalion?
A Yes, to Headquarters of the Fourth Serbian Voluntary Battalion.
Q What happened there?
A They took me to the headquarters and started interrogations imputing me always that I fired some shots at them last night. I refused it and denied it always and another soldier me on the stairs, hit me in such a way that I fell down the stairs. They handed me to another guard in the courtyard and told me that I will be put before the court martial next morning.
Q Where did you spend that night?
A I spent this night in the guard house.
Q At the headquarters?
AAt the Headquarters of the Fourth Voluntary Serbian Battalion.
Q When did they release you?
A I spent the whole night there for sometime and they released me in the morning because they were sure that I wasn't the person in question.
Q Where did you go?
A I went straight home.
Q And after you were home did someone come to your house?
A In the morning I was released in the morning and went home; I don't remember exactly the time but sometime in the afternoon, the very same day there came 3 persons from headquarters of GFB and they told me not to leave the house and as soon as I recovered, my daughter was to come and inform the headquarters of GFB that I am all right.
MR. FRITSCH: DR. Fritsch for the defendant Rendulic. Your Honor, the objection which my colleague, Dr. Laternser, made I want to join in his objection. I must state here that the questions which are given to this witness here are leading questions. Obviosuly, it is very important for us to test the credibility of this witness regarding each question, but when the Prosecution questions the witness in a way that he puts the answer in his mouth, then in even less important questions it is very difficult for us to find out how far this comes from the own knowledge of the witness and how the witness feels on the individual points, and how the witness approached the things at that time. I would like to ask the Prosecutor to put simple questions which can not anticipate in any way the answers.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the objection which counsel has made does not apply to all the questions that have been presented to the witness. I do feel in one or two exceptions he has led the witness somewhat, and I caution him and ask him to watch that feature of his interrogation. I think under the circumstances there may come times when you to have to ask leading questions in a situation such as we have here, working through an interpreter, but until that time happens I see no cause for asking leading questions.
You may proceed.
MR. DENNEY: I might add parenthetically for your Honors, none of this testimony concerns the client of Dr. Fritsch. This is all in October 1941.
Q How, these people, ---and I am recapitulating what the witness said. Dr. Fritsch was up here without the earphones on, so he may assume I am leading the witness again ---these G.F.P. people came to your house on the 21st and told you not to leave, and when you were well your daughter should come and tell them; how long did you stay in your house?
A I spent at home about 20 days.
Q And when you recovered did you return to your position?
A In about 20 days I left my house for the first time and went to the building of the G.F.P. I asked them whether I am allowed to find some job and do that, and what is my position now. I was answered that I am free and I can look for some job again.
Q And did you find a job later?
A Yes, I got a job with the tax office in Kragujevac on the 1st of February 1942.
Q Did you continue to hold that job until the liberation?
A Yes.
Q Now, going back to the period before you got the job with the tax commission in Kragujevac, and after you left your house recovering from your wonds, which would have been sometime around between roughly say the 8th and 14th of November, what did you do?
A I spent most of my time at home, and was getting out of the house very few and far between time, because I was not feeling too well still.
Q Did you ever return from the place from which you had fled on 20 October?
A Yes, I went there. I can't remember exactly when it was, but I am pretty sure that it was in the period when I had been for the first time in the building of G.F.P. and I would say during the first month I left the house.
A What did you see there?
A I went only to the first, to the first beach and it was pretty bad, it was maybe the 9th of November. I could see some blood and some water coming out from this area, which was covered, and there was still a terrible stinking around.
Q Did you ever see any of the soldiers who were involved in these various incidents which you have described prior to that day when you saw them on the 20th or did you ever see any of them subsequently?
A Which soldiers?
Q You saw the German soldiers who guarded you in the artillery barracks when you were there?
A I didn't know them personally.
Q Well, had you seen any of them before, to you knowledge?
A I have never seen them personally, but I saw later on some of these soldiers and soldiers in the same uniform in Kragujevac.
Q Soldiers wearing similar uniforms, but so far as you know you never saw any of them who were the same people, you didn't recognize their faces?
A No, I had never seen them.
Q Now, as you looked around Kragujevac after you left the house and during the subsequent weeks what, it anything, did you see which attracted your attention?
A On the first day when I left my home and was going to report to the headquarters of G.F.P. I saw a poster in the window of a shop telling that 1200 people have been shot because 12 German soldiers have been killed, somewhere in Kraljevo, and there were a long likst of 1200 names of this post.
Q You didn't count the names of the list, did you?
A No, I didn't. I saw the last counted number on the list and the number was 1200.
Q Now, did you see anything else that indicated to you that people had been killed on the 20th of October?
A Yes, according to the customs in Serbia there were black flags on every house from which a person was executed or killed, and there have been black posters with the names of the killed people, executed people, and even the pictures of these people, which was according to the usual practice in Yugoslavia.
Q Well, as you went around the town afterwards you saw many of these flags and these posters on the houses?
A. Yes, it was quite usual. It was a common case. There couldn't be seen almost a house without this black flag.
Q. Now, did you ever -- had you ever heard of a Captain Bischofshausen?
A. No, never.
Q. Did you know who was the town major of Kragujevac?
A. Yes, I used to know one by the name of Schuster.
Q. Well, did you hear anything - did you know anything - about the activities of the town major at this time?
A. Yes, I know that he was the town major that time, which was before the 21st of October. In the same group with me there was another man. The town major the very next day went out in a tank to the place of execution and the noise of the motor woke up this man who was lying on the ground unconscious. The town major saw this man still living, looked around, and, because nobody from the Germans was near in the vicinity, he dragged this man into the tank, took him to the headquarters and kept him about seven days there, fed him well, and then sent him home.
Q. Did you ever the name "Major Koenig"?
A. I have heard the name of Major Koenig later, afterward, and I learned that Major Koenig was the same tall German officer who arrived at the artillery barracks when I was sitting down on the ground, and Major Koenig was the person who gave the orders and who indicated the places, the points, where the shooting took place the following day. I learned that afterwards.
Q. And so far as you know, the troops that performed these executions were not troops who were regularly stationed in Kragujevac?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, will you watch and endeavor not to ask leading questions, if possible?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors please, thank you.
A. No, the soldiers of the Kragujevac garrison participated in this special action but everybody, even the town major of Kragujevac, was subordinated to Major Koenig during this time. That's what I learned afterwards.
Q. Did you ever learn how many people were executed in Kragujevac?
A. Yes, I can tell you that. About 8,000.
MR. DENNEY: You may inquire.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, may I first of all ask in what manner we are going to have translations into these several languages--
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't get the inquiry, Doctor.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, I have asked how the translation is going to take place. Will my question put in German be translated into the Serbian language from English into Serbian or will my German question at once be translated into Serbian?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, Mr. Targoni advises me that he understands German sufficiently to translate from German into Serbian. He is familiar with the German written and spoken word, the first as he reads it and, of course, the latter as hears it. However, he feels that it is better if he translates from Serbian back into English, and if that's agreeable with Dr. Laternser, I see no objection -- I suggest that it be handled in that manner because that saves one translation each way.
THE PRESIDENT: That will be agreeable with the Tribunal if it is satisfactory to counsel.
DR. LATERNSER: I agree to this.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. How long have you been in Nuernberg?
A. This is the first day I'm here.
Q. Did you arrive yesterday or today?
A. No, it was the day before yesterday.
Q. You just said that you were here for the first day.
A. That isn't right. It is possible that I told that.
DR. LATERNSER: I would like to draw your attention that you are under oath also as regards to the answering of my questions.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I object to Dr. Laternser's inference, and I object to his arguing with the witness.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Sustained.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honors, I would like to make my position clear as regards the ruling of this court. I am justified in putting them questions in cross examination. In cross-examination every kind of questions can be put, also leading questions. However the prosecution may not do so in that type of examination.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: The statement is quite correct, Dr. Laternser, but I see no occasion for any inference at this time that the witness is not telling the truth or that he is not conscious of the fact that he is under oath.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I did not say that he was telling the untruth. I reminded him of the fact that he should be very careful in the answering of my questions too.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: You may proceed.
DR. LATERNSER: Witness, I ask again, therefore, how long have you been in Nurnberg?
A. The witness is sorry but he arrived exactly on 28 July at 1730 in the afternoon.
Q. With whom did you talk in the meantime? During this time?
A. In order to talk to the men of the Yugoslav Delegation, he talked to Mr. Denney, I was present too, (meaning the interpreter(; there was another man I cannot remember his name. I believe it was one of the members of the prosecution staff.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors, the person of whom he is speaking is Mr. Fenstermacher, of the prosecution staff, who was in my office for a portion of the time that we discussed the testimony of the witness, and I believe that Mr. Rapp came in once for a period of perhaps five minutes or so.
I am not sure the witness say him.
DR. LATERNSER: Your evidence today was probably discussed at this occasion?
A. Yes, that's true.
Q. Was your evidence fixed in writing?
A. No.
Q. Were documents submitted to you?
A. No.
Q. There were documents presented to you?
A. No documents, but especially one thing was emphasized, that is to say, that in the course during the interrogation, I have to say only what I say myself, with my own eyes, and what I heard afterwards, that I should not tell, that is later on, only what I have seen with my own eyes.
Q. Witness, were you not shown a report which the Yugoslav Commission made about the things that happened in Kregujevac?
A. Yes, I saw the document.
Q. You said before that no documents were shown you.
A. This one is not a document; it is my testimony given in my own country, YUGOSLAVIA, its my own testimony.
Q. Which testimony.
A. Yes, it it my statement, my testimony given in Yugo Slavia, what happened to me on the day of 21 of October, 1941.
Q. You had not given testimony about that in Yugo Slavia, already had you?
A. Yes.
Q. Was only that testimony submitted to you or was the report of the Yugoslav Commission also submitted to you, as I asked you before?
A. I do not know anything about some other documents.
Q. You still live in Kragujevac?
A. Yes, now too.
Q. And during which time wore you active for the German occupation authorities at that place?
A. I cannot remember exactly well, but I started my job for the German occupation forces almost immediately after the occupation was completed, and I held this job until the 17 September when I was arrested.
Q. Did you get pay for your work?
A. Yes, I was paid.
Q. Did you also get subsistence?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever have any claim to holidays?
A. No, it was a short period I was working for Germans.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I do not want to limit Dr. Laternser, there is no charge that the man was not paid, or that he worked involuntarily or anything else, and I submit there are better ways of testing his power to recollect ehan whether or not he worked there, and whether they paid Aim or fed him.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Overruled.
DR. LATERNSER:
Q. How were you treated by the Germans while working for them? I am talking about the time until your arrest.
A. I was treated in a courteous way and enjoyed their confidence,
Q. In September 1941, as you said, you were arrested?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. You said that two or three armed soldiers-- that you were arrested by two or three armed soldiers?
A. Yes, and they had insignia, "GFP", on their shoulders.
Q. Witness, what does GFP stand for?
A. I don't know.
Q. Now I want to tell you what it stands for. It stands for "Secret Field Police".
Do you believe-- really belived,-- that a secret police would show his insignia openly? In that all of the secret police would be recognized at once?
A. I don't know.
Q. Are you quite sure that you saw those insignia, or is it possible that you arc in error.?
A. No, I am quite sure that I have seen this insignia and I even say a sign with an arrow showing the direction to the building, "GFP" also "GFP" shown on this sign.
Q. Would you kindly repeat this. I do not quite understand it.
A. I am quite sure that I have seen this insignia, not only on the soldiers' shoulder patches, the same insignias were worn by officers, and on the door of the office when I was interrogated there was in light blue glass the letters "GFP", written in a black color.
Q. You were then arrested by these people. What was your interrogation about?
A. I was arrested by these people, yes, and interrogations took place on the 2nd floor of the same building bearing the sign GFP.
Q. And what were you interrogated about? About what subject?
A. The matter of the interrogation was that I am a member of the illegal underground organization, and they tried to get my answer in the positive.
Q. You were not a member of the partisans or the underground movements?
A. No, never.
Q. Why were you not a member of the partisan movement?
A. Well, I was good Serbian. I couldn't tell that while there were Germans around. Being a poor man, and bearing on my shoulders my mother, my wife and my child, I had to take care about all of these people. To be a partisan meant to leave the house and my folks and go sough to the mountains to fight. I felt too weak for that.
Q. Witness, you probably also did not do it because you did not think it right to do anything against the occupation forces?
A Well, there was a period of time when I was working in the Military Technical Branch in Kragujevac. I had a pretty good life, that is to say, everything was taken care of. I didn't think whether it would be loyal or not to German occupation authorities if I joined the partisans, but later on when I was treated in such a brutal way and was wounded twice; I scared the Germans, that's true; but I didn't join partisans at this time because I was too weak. After two wounds I couldn't do that.
Q Witness, the question which I'm putting to you refer to the time until your arrest. Did you think it right that fellow countrymen of yours were shooting Germans from ambush? What did you think about that?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, there is no evidence that this witness knows anything about fellow countrymen shooting Germans from ambush. And I don't think it's a proper matter of inquiry. Further, it probes the witness's the operations of his mind - in matters with which we are not here concerned.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, may I make my attitude plain in regard to this. Witness, I had asked you whether at that time and for what reason you refused to join the partisans, because the partisans shot Germans from ambush.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor pleases, he's asking the same question that Your Honor just sustained the opposition to.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, did you ever talk with partisans--that is, fellow countrymen of yours who were members of those bands.
A No, never, until 1944.
Q Until 1944 you did not talk to partisans, if I understood you rightly?
A No, I had no opportunity for that.
Q And after 1944 did you then talk to the partisans?
A Yes, I did, but only when the defense arrived, not like bands, but like a regular army.
MR. DENNEY: I have no objection to Dr. Laternser's going into the 1944 period if he desires to make him his own witness. This testimony has definitely been limited to the period prior to April 1941, except for explanatory matter and some time within a few months after October, 1941.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I have never heard--now for the first time--that a witness may only testify about a certain period of time, and that the Defense Counsel in cross-examination must be confined only to put questions about this period of time. I must have the opportunity to question the witness quite freely and this is also in conformity with the American rules of procedure, either for fact or for investigating the question, regarding the credibility of the witness. For this reason, I cannot see how this objection can be sustained.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is over-ruled.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, I had just asked you whether after 1944 you had talked with partisans.
A Yes, certainly, I had.
Q What did they tell you regarding the manner in which they fought the Germans? They probably were proud of that, I take it.
A It's historical; it's what everybody in Yugoslavia talks about right now, and I can't tell it in several words.
Q Yes, I understand that. For that reason I will ask something more pointed. What did the partisans tell you personally how they treated tho German prisoners?
A It was according to the military situation. Sometimes when it was just to take the prisoners back into the rear zone, they took them but sometimes they killed them.
Q And they told you that?
A Yes.
Q Did they also tell you the kind of orders they had from Marshal Tito regarding the treatment of such German prisoners?
A I am not acquainted with this problem.
Q Did they tell you the kind of weapons they had and from whom they got these weapons?
A Yes, they did--some of them. They told me that they got their arms and weapons from the Germans, from the killed Germans.
Q Did they also tell you that at night English and American planes --English planes came overhead at night and threw arms and ammunition down?
A Yes, you are right. That's what I told before. It pertained to the first period of the fight, but later on they were supplied, and very richly supplied, by allies because they were recognized as a regular army.
Q You say they were recognized as a regular army. By whom were they recognized as a regular army?
A That's what I have heard. The partisans were recognized by the Allies as a regular army, and besides they even--the German authorities--made sometimes the exchange of prisoners. That is to say, unofficially the German army recognized this unit as an army.
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, Dr. Laternser. It occurs to the Tribunal that even though we want to be very liberal in our rulings on cross-examination, that we are getting quite far afield from anything which might have any bearing upon this witness's interest or his credibility. I suggest that we refer to the matters which are at hand-the original testimony of the witness which has heretofore been presented.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q We have rather strayed, Witness. I asked you what you were interrogated about after your first arrest. You said then whether you were a member of the partisans or not. And one question you have not yet answered--I asked you did you also not join the partisans because you looked upon it as not right that the occupational forces were shot at from ambush.